I think the only arrogant person here is you. Although in my personal opinion, Zard Y is emerging as the bigger threat. Zard X requires one turn of setup, whereas Zard Y wrecks shit from the off.
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Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
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I think the only arrogant person here is you. Although in my personal opinion, Zard Y is emerging as the bigger threat. Zard X requires one turn of setup, whereas Zard Y wrecks shit from the off.
They are equal threats. However, BurningSnake was simply saying that it was stupid for him to say "They both perform about equally in their roles according to myself and many other players. You can't say one is better than the other without being subjective yourself."
It was idiotic for him to make conclusions based on the opinions of himself and 'many other players.'
Zygarde :)
If I were you, I'd keep the sarcastic comments to a minimum, and when you use it, try for a positive connotation.
Anyway, since I assume I'm one of the other players you're referring to, I'd like to clarify. X is more dangerous on more teams, because its easier to use. You go in, boost when possible, and blow shit up. In that regard, its arguably the best there is (if you read my signature, you'll understand why I say arguably). I personally use it as an early game sweeper to give me a lot of momentum and it often will KO 3-4 pokemon by itself. If you're looking for a pokemon that will immediately cover a team's weakness and give you a lot of offensive presence, I'd say X is your guy.
While X is usually put in late in a team's planning (It can be part of an offensive core, but I've tried to plan a team around X, and it wasn't that easy. I ended up with 2 checks for Heatran and 2 for Azumarill, and only 1 support pokemon. You can imagine how well it did putting all the weight on X's shoulders), teams usually need to be built around Y in order for it do its best. He needs a lot of support for things like stealth rock, but he also gives lots of support with Drought and eliminating tough walls. After I use him to blow up whatever wall my opponent had, I usually save him for the end as his decent speed and incredible offensive power make him a great late game sweeper.
I personally have 4 OU teams, and right now the one with Y on it is ranked higher than the one with X on it because the Y team better suits my personal playing style. I told you X earlier because Y is harder to fit on a team, not because one is better.
When building a soccer team, you don't get all the best players you can and put them on a field, then you could end up with a million forwards and nobody to defend. You get the best defenders you can, the best forwards you can, and so on. In my opinion, X is the Messi of pokemon. He can charge forward and get points on the board. But not all teams need that star forward. Y is more like a midfielder, who will protect your team from dangerous pokemon that could cause your team problems, but he can also play an offensive presence to KO a couple of pokes itself. You can make arguments that one is more important, but since they do totally different things, there's really no point to it
P.S. Sorry to all the not soccer fans, I'm writing this while waiting for my friends to pick me up for a game, so its on my mind
Because Outrage will do the same exact damage to Mega Venusaur as Flare Blitz?
You're saying Fire Punch does better against Azumarill than Flare Blitz? Azumarill can't actually switch into +1 Flare Blitz Charizard-X because it's 2HKOd by Flare Blitz (even through Sitrus Berry some of the time) while Aqua Jet only does 30% back so that's an argument in favor of Flare Blitz if anything since Fire Punch doesn't get the 2HKO. You shouldn't shoehorn Roost into the equation, that's your preference, it's entirely possible to run Flare Blitz without it.
Outrage is a liability most of the time and not the usual move, talk to the guy above and his Belly Drum Azumarill to find out one of the reason why. You clearly misunderstood my post anyway, nobody runs physically defensive non-mega Venusaur so such a calc is irrelevant as I said.
Most people run Specially Defensive Trevenant over Physical and I included that calc as well. I include them as a reference of scale.
Mega Venusaur takes neutral from Fire and I didn't bother including any calcs for neutral Fire hits.
A typical DD CharX is best as a late game sweeper. Flare Blitz will only allow you to kill roughly 3 Pokemon before the recoil ends you and you can't Outrage until all Fairies and Steel types are out of the way. You would run Fire Punch over Flare Blitz for the same reason you use Dragon Claw over Outrage, because both of the stronger moves have drawbacks.
Fire Punch/Dragon Claw sacrifices power for reliability. Dragon STAB is better for neutral hits than Fire STAB due to resistances, so why not try Fire Punch/Outrage over Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw? You trade Recoil for Lock In with less resistances on your stronger attack and Fire is a better coverage type than Dragon.
I love the analogy here... Xzard is the luxury star who can make the rest of your team look good when it is doing good things. On the other hand, Yzard is someone who nits the team together like the cog in a machine. It doesn't get noticed as much but the team appreciates it is there. Both are great Pokemon but both are still outmuscled by the OU juggernauts and the more common it is, the easier it seems to be dealt with.
If they both were to go back under the radar then they will be even better as people can forget how varying their movesets can be. They are a common force for now and probably here to stay in OU and that is fantastic news for such a popular Pokemon who has been around since the start. It does deserve and justify its use in teams and personally I hope the next generation doesn't nullify the 'mega' usage we see in this generation.
So you're saying Charizard X is Dimitar Berbatov and Charizard Y is Scott Parker, I like this analogy. xD
A friend of mine finds both of them entirely situational. Xzard is great for the build up sweeping but Yzard is great for hitting shit hard.
All dependent on what your team needs really.
Though the drought ability makes Sun Teams very easy to access now...
All dependent on what your team needs really.
Though the drought ability makes Sun Teams very easy to access now...
No what I was saying was that if you run flare blitz you need to have roost or else xzard is just a two-four turn Pokemon at max.
But with fire punch you won't need to roost off recoil and can run say... Thunder punch? For that pesky azumarill
Alright first of all I want to organize a little contest here, I want everyone to nominate new sets to be introduced to the OP, the more detailed the better. The second is I'm starting to think that Thunder Pwnch is the coverage move to go to on Physical CharX, with Tough Claws and it's natural high attack this thing can get a 60-70% on 252 Azu without any boosts, most likely murdering it after a single DD.
Correction: It murders everything after a single DD
Correction: It murders everything after a single DD
My opinion on Thunderpunch is that it's only good against bulky waters, which don't really bother Charizard anyway due to not hitting him super effectively with Water or Ice moves. So you can break through them most of the time with your Dragon STAB. Azumarill, who's immune to Dragon? 2HKOd by +1 Flare Blitz and can't OHKO Charizard so it can't switch in. Thunderpunch does help you take it down in one hit at +1 if it comes in on a free switch though so that's something. It OHKOs Gyarados as well I guess so that's something. My point is it doesn't hit dragon-neutral water types (Slowbro, Keldeo, Vaporeon, Politoed etc) much harder than Dragon Claw. You could argue that Outrage is a more natural solution if you're worried about these pokemon since it hits harder than 2x effective Thunderpunch.
I'd prefer Earthquake because Heatran will be more common, walls you much harder and has Earth Power to hurt you back with.
I'd prefer Earthquake because Heatran will be more common, walls you much harder and has Earth Power to hurt you back with.
Well for starters, Thuderpunch has little merit over Roost for a Mega Charizard X. Roost is so important for Mega Charizard X as it's above average bulk allows it to utilize Roost to the fullest. Being able to heal off recoil damage and also SR damage is very critical. I can't even count the number of times, Mega Charizar X pulled through by Roosting off damage.
Plus look at the damage calculations:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard from that point can easily eat up a Banded Aqua Jet taking 30% maximum and either Roosting up or just going straight for the Flare Blitz one more time.
Thunderpunch is just not worth the invaluable longevity that Roost provides for Mega Charizard X.
Also, looking at the OP, while many seem interesting in theory, many are just impractical in actual practice.
For example mixed Mega Charizard Y should seriously just run Focus Punch for Blissey and Chansey if they are such huge problems for Mega Charizard Y as Flare Blitz is seriously detrimental for it as it cannot afford to lose coverage by using Roost. (Sadly for Mega Charizard Y, Roost really just has no business being run as the valuable coverage is essential for a potent wall breaker.) Plus, Tyranitar is hit harder by Focus Punch as well than Flare Blitz ever will.
Plus look at the damage calculations:
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 229-270 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Charizard from that point can easily eat up a Banded Aqua Jet taking 30% maximum and either Roosting up or just going straight for the Flare Blitz one more time.
Thunderpunch is just not worth the invaluable longevity that Roost provides for Mega Charizard X.
Also, looking at the OP, while many seem interesting in theory, many are just impractical in actual practice.
For example mixed Mega Charizard Y should seriously just run Focus Punch for Blissey and Chansey if they are such huge problems for Mega Charizard Y as Flare Blitz is seriously detrimental for it as it cannot afford to lose coverage by using Roost. (Sadly for Mega Charizard Y, Roost really just has no business being run as the valuable coverage is essential for a potent wall breaker.) Plus, Tyranitar is hit harder by Focus Punch as well than Flare Blitz ever will.
Well luckily, I'm not you :) *snickers* (Sorry I just had to say it). But thanks for clearing that up anyway, your soccer comparison kinda helped a little even though I don't play soccer (I prefer Basketball)
All right. For teams with Charizard X, think Miami. They've got stars that demand your attention and typically make or break the team. They take all the credit too (yes that was a jab at Lebron). With Y teams, think more about the Spurs (in their prime. They're still good, but man do I miss the old days). Very team oriented. They have players that can step up and make a huge difference, but they rarely depend on all star performances as the team works together to win the game. You take your pick out of those, but don't let last season's fluke sway your oppinion.
Obviously I'm a little biased (Born and raised a Spurs fan), but that example does a decent job of showing how both have systems that work. X is the better solo pokemon, similar to how Lebron is better than just about everybody, but the Spurs still showed that they were their equal by the team having synergy, similar to how Y can support his team mates more. Hope that helps
I prefer to run a mixed Charizard X set a little bit like Salamence last gen.
Charizard@Charizardite X
Nature: Naive
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 Atk, 4 SpA
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast/Overheat
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderpunch
Even without much investment in SpA, Charizard should hit really hard with its impressive 130 Base-SpA and STAB combined. But some Speed EVs can be removed in favor of boosting the SpA-stat even more. Thunderpunch for those annoying Azumarills that would laugh at you.
But so far I was using my Leadzard:
Charizard@Fokus-Sash
Nature: Timid
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 SpA, 4 HP
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse
- Counter
With that many physical attackers, Charizard can one shoot most of them with its counter thanks to focus sash. Additionally Blaze will be activated and boost Charizards Fire Moves like Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Fire+Flying+Fighting offers excellent coverage, but Dragon Pulse can be used over Focus Blast for the better accuracy.
Charizard@Charizardite X
Nature: Naive
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 Atk, 4 SpA
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Blast/Overheat
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderpunch
Even without much investment in SpA, Charizard should hit really hard with its impressive 130 Base-SpA and STAB combined. But some Speed EVs can be removed in favor of boosting the SpA-stat even more. Thunderpunch for those annoying Azumarills that would laugh at you.
But so far I was using my Leadzard:
Charizard@Fokus-Sash
Nature: Timid
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spe, 252 SpA, 4 HP
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Air Slash
- Focus Blast/Dragon Pulse
- Counter
With that many physical attackers, Charizard can one shoot most of them with its counter thanks to focus sash. Additionally Blaze will be activated and boost Charizards Fire Moves like Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Fire+Flying+Fighting offers excellent coverage, but Dragon Pulse can be used over Focus Blast for the better accuracy.
I'm a Y-Fanboy myself.
You guys should try Sub + Blast Burn. I know it sounds scrubby but if used correctly, you get a move that hits harder than UberkyOgre Water Spout and the sub blocks the attack so you aren't just a sitting duck.
If that doesn't amuse you, did you guys know that the number one looks like a Charizard boppin' it's head Egyptian style?
1 1 1 1
Add a seven and you got 17....Have fun unseeing it.
You guys should try Sub + Blast Burn. I know it sounds scrubby but if used correctly, you get a move that hits harder than UberkyOgre Water Spout and the sub blocks the attack so you aren't just a sitting duck.
If that doesn't amuse you, did you guys know that the number one looks like a Charizard boppin' it's head Egyptian style?
1 1 1 1
Add a seven and you got 17....Have fun unseeing it.
I'm a Y-Fanboy myself.
You guys should try Sub + Blast Burn. I know it sounds scrubby but if used correctly, you get a move that hits harder than UberkyOgre Water Spout and the sub blocks the attack so you aren't just a sitting duck.
If that doesn't amuse you, did you guys know that the number one looks like a Charizard boppin' it's head Egyptian style?
1 1 1 1
Add a seven and you got 17....Have fun unseeing it.
You guys should try Sub + Blast Burn. I know it sounds scrubby but if used correctly, you get a move that hits harder than UberkyOgre Water Spout and the sub blocks the attack so you aren't just a sitting duck.
If that doesn't amuse you, did you guys know that the number one looks like a Charizard boppin' it's head Egyptian style?
1 1 1 1
Add a seven and you got 17....Have fun unseeing it.
Hey Mr. Aulbath/Rikuo (sorry, I just love that avatar of yours from Vampire), did you ever think about what happens if your Substitute is already destroyed on the same turn you create the move? If your Charizard is faster than your Opponent (who happens to be a heavy hitter), then is more this is more than likely to happen and you basically just wasted a portion of your HP. You just turn back to your plain old mega self and you won't be invulnerable anymore Why bother doing that when you could just use Flamethrower or Fire Blast 2 times in a row instead? That not only does more damage than a single Blast Burn, but you also get a chance to burn your opponent and you don't have to use Substitute's HP cut just to make it safe; that would make it better than Blast Burn in almost every way. Flamethrower also has WAY more PP than both of them. The only thing BB has going for it is slightly higher accuracy than FB and stronger base power than Flamethrower; other than these the move is useless in light of these moves.
Anything base 90 or more with a positive nature, and anything with base 114 or lower with a neutral nature. The only pokemon that I can think of that would realistically do this are Genesect, Espeon and Lati@s. In general, most pokemon faster run beneficial natures, and slower run neutral. You'll find a couple others, but those are the only ones you can expect to outspeed with Jolly, but not Adamant
That's sort of the nature of the move. I play a lot of 3v3 and it sees the most usage when you KNOW the opponent is going to switch out. Say you're up against Scizor or Forretress... think they're going to stay in?
At that point you can nuke most frail sweepers from behind a Substitute at tne cost of... 1/4 HP (you actually need Fire Blast/Heat Wave too). It is a situational move, I admit but the pay off can be huge.
Besides that I'm the kind of guy who plays matches based on a Pokemon's single greatest strength. Not to sound like Ash Ketchum but I believe Charizards greatest asset is having the strongest fire attacks in the game and not so much his coverage. For example you can pair him with Dugtrio if you want to peg off Tyranitar/Aggron so that saves you the need of running Focus Blast. 150 Base power with double STAB in the sun converts to 337 Base Power... even Explosion only has 250 Base.
Just an idea, not for everyone and I might not use it on the smogon ladder. It's pretty fun if you can pull of a Sub-switch Blast Burn, kill something then peg off the last Pokemon in a 3 on 3. It really is that strong of a move.
And yeah Vampire Savior's dope... game is like... haunted. So much ancient mythology and shit from Akuna-TEN and Himalayan Yeti myths to Anakaris/Krisnaaa.... it's all related to world religion, you should look it up ahaha... creeps me out.
Yeah.... still not worth it, especially not when you can just use Flamethrower or Fire Blast 2 times in a row that would totally outdamage it. As mentioned before, these moves also have the chance to burn the opponent (though its based on luck admittedly), where the latter is not true at all. Neat idea I admit, but still kinda useless in light of vastly better options. But with 3 Pokémon in the same field, Stealth Rock, Stone Edge, or Rock Slide would make hell for your Charizard Y if you plan on using substitute; you know a lot of people will use these moves right?
And Vampire Savior, nah, not so haunted to me. Sure there are monsters from mythology and religious beliefs, but the rest of the game has almost nothing to do with religion. Even if it does, its rather small and not really worth worrying about.
Dragonite's probably your best bet. Charizard covers the ice weakness, and it has some bulk to take on hyper offensive teams more consistently. I might also suggest Garchomp, for similar reasons, but it also covers Heatran and rock types.
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