Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[alexwolf]

Update time

Staraptor: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Starmie: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+ Rank
Rotom-W stays in A+
Dragonite stays in A
Blastoise (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Noivern: Unranked ---> C Rank
Kabutops: Unranked ---> C Rank
Chandelure: Unranked ---> C+ Rank
Gardevoir / Gardevoir (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Espeon: Unranked ---> B Rank
Latios: A+ ---> A
Latias: A+ ---> A
Entei: Unranked ---> B Rank
Quagsire: Unranked ---> C Rank
Honhckrow: Unranked ---> D Rank
Chansey: A ---> B+ Rank
Krookodile: Unranked ---> B Rank

Those changes were based on both the input of the community in this thread and the opinions of some knowledgeable people. Also, refrain from posting about Pokemon that have been heavily discussed, such as Rotom-W, Latios, and Latias. However, you are free to argue about any of the Pokemon in the list above to change rank, if they have received little discussion or if you think that there is something that could change their rank that hasn't already be mentioned.

 

[Ulevo]

Update time

Staraptor: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Starmie: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+ Rank
Rotom-W stays in A+
Dragonite stays in A
Blastoise (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Noivern: Unranked ---> C Rank
Kabutops: Unranked ---> C Rank
Chandelure: Unranked ---> C+ Rank
Gardevoir / Gardevoir (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Espeon: Unranked ---> B Rank
Latios: A+ ---> A
Latias: A+ ---> A
Entei: Unranked ---> B Rank
Quagsire: Unranked ---> C Rank
Honhckrow: Unranked ---> D Rank
Chansey: A ---> B+ Rank
Krookodile: Unranked ---> B Rank

Those changes were based on both the input of the community in this thread and the opinions of some knowledgeable people. Also, refrain from posting about Pokemon that have been heavily discussed, such as Rotom-W, Latios, and Latias. However, you are free to argue about any of the Pokemon in the list above to change rank, if they have received little discussion or if you think that there is something that could change their rank that hasn't already be mentioned.

What sort of sets would warrant Noivern being placed in to C Rank?

 

[Dread Arceus]

I'll stop you right here for a bit.
Deoxys-S uses Taunt! The foe's Mandibuzz has been taunted!
The foe's Mandibuzz cannot use Defog because of Taunt.

This argument should just end--I'm not just talking about you...that'd be silly. I'm talking about the general argument. Deoxys-S has ways around Defog. Rapid Spin, on the other hand, can be taken out with a coverage move (say, Fire Punch against Forretress and Excadrill, which also hits Genesect Super-Effectively).



How do you know that? How would you know that? I've run an Offensive Deoxys-S as the lead and it completely threw the opponent off. The Excadrill in question has a 50% chance of a OHKO when Deoxys-S uses Superpower (assuming 4HP/0Def).



One would use Deoxys-S for its natural speed. If not, you're not using it for the right reasons.



Usage doesn't equal actual strength and weakness. Please...usage is a lame excuse to judge a Pokemon.

Now...can we PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT DEOXYS-S!? I don't think any of us want this thread derailed YET AGAIN to have it locked YET AGAIN and have us wait until the bullsh** is removed YET AGAIN!



A Recoil move against Chansey/Blissey is a pretty bad idea in general. Charizard X and Talonflame have recoil-less options to use. Flare Blitz is a good move on these Pokemon, but avoid using them against the Blobs...you'll either die or become crippled thanks to the health loss (704 HP on Chansey...remember that it divides by three).

This is Gen 6. A Generation where priority is king and hazards are near non-existent. Deo-S's appeal was the speed of a scarfer and hazards, which are fairly dated. There's a reason why Deo-S's usage is UU, you know.

 

[Always!]

This is Gen 6. A Generation where priority is king and hazards are near non-existent. Deo-S's appeal was the speed of a scarfer and hazards, which are fairly dated. There's a reason why Deo-S's usage is UU, you know.

Hazards are more important than ever, if I do say so myself. Things like Talonflame and Zard have had popularity spikes, and while people may not really like it, it is extremely helpful for racking on passive damage and dealing with pokemon like those. Limiting the amount of times Talonflame can BB is extremely useful, and essentially giving the standard variant two switch ins and one attack is invaluable.

Deoxys doesn't need to run a hazard sets too and can run other sets *blah blah blah, lets not start this again

Deoxys S is still solid S Tier.

 

[Judgement Blade]

I'm starting to think that Deoxys-S needs to go on the blacklisted tier so people don't try to talk about it anymore lol

 

[TrippingRocks]

As mentioned many times before, Sableye definitely needs a rank. His base stats may be low and his perfect typing may now have weakness in fairies, but his great supportive movepool still makes him a relevant nuisance in OU. The buff to Will-O-Wisp may have benefited Rotom-W the most, but Sableye also loves the accuracy improvement as he often uses WoW himself. Priority WoW? Yes please. Priority Taunt? I'll take that. Priority recover? Oh yes. Ghost/Dark is still a great defensive typing, even if he's weak to fairies now (they're not that common). Plus the buff to Knock off and dark moves in general makes Sableye smile while he foul plays you or knocks off your precious item. He literally needs no support to be a massive hindrance. As so long as there's no fire type on the opposing team, Sableye is virtually guaranteed to burn something. Literally the only thing that can stop him is another prankster user. Great ability combined with a great moveset along with a great typing. Unfortunately, Sableye's defensive stats let him down quite a bit. I'd put him at B-rank.

I'm sorry Galvantula but you need to go down. Like... to C+ rank. The only reason why anyone uses him in OU is due to sticky web. He may very well be the best user of Sticky Web, but that still doesn't make him a good pokemon. Compoundeyes is a neat ability, but he can only use Thunder to utilize that ability. The extra base power plus STAB from Thunder is nice and all, but a Sp.Atk of 97 isn't exactly high for OU standards. Galvantula's coverage isn't so hot either. He has a decent Sp.Atk stat and a great base speed of 108.... and he has sticky web... and... yeah... that's pretty much it. His poor typing combined with his pook bulk does him no favors. Only reason to ever use Galvantula is sticky web and while sticky web is a nice hazard, it's not as good as Stealth Rock. Plus hazards in general are easier to remove in this generation. Galvantula's one niche of having Sticky Web does not propel him any higher than C+ rank in my eyes.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Only D rank for Honchkrow? It's actually really good in practice. It's worthy of at least C, if not C+. Honchkrow makes Malamar look like a joke, so putting it in the same tier is insulting his potential :\ Here's some calcs to give you an idea:

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 188-224 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after a Moxie boost, the OHKO is guaranteed)
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 346-408 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 153-183 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind, Moxie amplifies its already incredible power to whole new levels for every kill. It has its flaws, being frailty and mediocre speed, though Sucker Punch offsets this quite a lot. As I showed in a previous post nothing can pull off the same things Honchkrow can; it's just that unique and that warrants a relevant ranking too.

 

[Chev]

Only D rank for Honchkrow? It's actually really good in practice. It's worthy of at least C, if not C+. Honchkrow makes Malamar look like a joke, so putting it in the same tier is insulting his potential :\ Here's some calcs to give you an idea:

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 188-224 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after a Moxie boost, the OHKO is guaranteed)
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 346-408 (89.6 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 328-386 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 153-183 (43.2 - 51.6%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind, Moxie amplifies its already incredible power to whole new levels for every kill. It has its flaws, being frailty and mediocre speed, though Sucker Punch offsets this quite a lot. As I showed in a previous post nothing can pull off the same things Honchkrow can; it's just that unique and that warrants a relevant ranking too.

Honchkrow and Malamar aren't being compared, although Malamar would win outright against Honchkrow if no moxie boosts have been obtained. That weakness to rock is his downfall in that situation. Again, all situational, and getting a moxie boost off of a lone Sucker Punch is not much to go on, similarly to Malamar's Superpower boosting.

With that (although I love Malamar, and just wish he had a bit more gusto) I'd say that both of the deserve to be in D.... Although once we see more settling and such in the uses, I'm sure either could make a good comeback into being a bit better off in say C, C-.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

On the subject of honchkrow, I've been thinking, would it work to be in a triple core with talonflame and staraptor, or is it compounding to many weaknesses together?

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

This is Gen 6.

Umm...thanks for the friendly reminder...(?)

This is Gen 6. A Generation where priority is king and hazards are near non-existent.

What the HELL is wrong with people? You all think all Deoxys-S can do is Hazards. Priority was ALWAYS a problem, even in Gen 5, but that didn't stop it.

There's a reason why Deo-S's usage is UU, you know.

Because the ladder is filled with idiots--short, sweet, and simple. We've been over this...

I'm starting to think that Deoxys-S needs to go on the blacklisted tier so people don't try to talk about it anymore lol

You know what? Why doesn't somebody just put a note next to it saying "Blacklisted, but S" or something like that. I'm sure we're all tired of Deoxys-S arguments. This is turning into Arcanine, Florges, Jolteon, and Mega Venusaur all over again...

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Update time

Staraptor: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Starmie: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+ Rank
Rotom-W stays in A+
Dragonite stays in A
Blastoise (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Noivern: Unranked ---> C Rank
Kabutops: Unranked ---> C Rank
Chandelure: Unranked ---> C+ Rank
Gardevoir / Gardevoir (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Espeon: Unranked ---> B Rank
Latios: A+ ---> A
Latias: A+ ---> A
Entei: Unranked ---> B Rank
Quagsire: Unranked ---> C Rank
Honhckrow: Unranked ---> D Rank
Chansey: A ---> B+ Rank
Krookodile: Unranked ---> B Rank

Those changes were based on both the input of the community in this thread and the opinions of some knowledgeable people. Also, refrain from posting about Pokemon that have been heavily discussed, such as Rotom-W, Latios, and Latias. However, you are free to argue about any of the Pokemon in the list above to change rank, if they have received little discussion or if you think that there is something that could change their rank that hasn't already be mentioned.

EVERYBODY STOP

...

WE GOT UPDATES!!!!!!!

Once every hundred pages should be enough, right? Anyway, this is really encouraging and I'm just going to leave the newly updated stuff as it is for a while because I think we should focus on getting more unranked stuff on there (to put some perspective on this, there are now 88 pokemon ranked on the OP, while 132 are currently getting analyses, which means we still have 44 to go).

So on the subject of dugtrio (which seems to be the thing from my last post people found most interesting), I admit I was forgetting its utility as a partner for certain thing, particularly Genesect and, apparently, Talonflame (haven't ever seen this but it makes perfect sense). Actually I want to go try out CB Talon + SashTrio ASAP, that's how fun it sounds. In light of this, maybe C- or C would be a be a better place for him.

 

[Molk]

Speaking of Malamar, i'd actually like to call his placement on the list at all into question, let alone in D rank. I've always seen Malamar is a pretty mediocre Pokemon (definitely worse than Honchkrow at least imo), and honestly at the moment i don't see much of a reason to use him in OU at all, he's a very very flawed Pokemon all around, and i simply don't think that contrary is enough to make him worth using. First off, Malamar's stats are pretty underwhelming all around, with no stats really standing out and no base stats above base 100, leaving it with a sort of jack of all trades problem, none of its stats are particularly absolutely terrible, but Malamar simply doesn't hit hard enough without multiple Superpower boosts, isn't quite fast enough to outpace a good portion of the metagame, and isn't exactly the bulkiest thing around either. The latter issue is further compounded by the fact that Malamar's typing, Dark/Psychic, is rather underwhelming defensively. Outside of a sole immunity to Psychic-type moves, Malamar has absolutely no resistances to take advantage of, taking everything else for neutral damage or worse regardless of type, making it annoying/challenging to effectively switch in and start Superpowering against a competent opponent. Contrary is all well and good, but honestly, if i wanted a Pokemon that benefitted from usually crippling effects such as Intimidate, Sticky Web, King's Shield, and Defog, i'd rather use Bisharp over Malamar any day, because while Bisharp can't Contrary Superpower, it's simply a significantly better Pokemon all around with that powerful STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch and all. So all in all, i really don't see a reason to use Malamar at all at the moment, and i don't think its niche is significant enough to even be placed in D rank honestly.

 

[NoahStar]

Update time

Staraptor: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Starmie: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+ Rank
Rotom-W stays in A+
Dragonite stays in A
Blastoise (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Noivern: Unranked ---> C Rank
Kabutops: Unranked ---> C Rank
Chandelure: Unranked ---> C+ Rank
Gardevoir / Gardevoir (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Espeon: Unranked ---> B Rank
Latios: A+ ---> A
Latias: A+ ---> A
Entei: Unranked ---> B Rank
Quagsire: Unranked ---> C Rank
Honhckrow: Unranked ---> D Rank
Chansey: A ---> B+ Rank
Krookodile: Unranked ---> B Rank

Those changes were based on both the input of the community in this thread and the opinions of some knowledgeable people. Also, refrain from posting about Pokemon that have been heavily discussed, such as Rotom-W, Latios, and Latias. However, you are free to argue about any of the Pokemon in the list above to change rank, if they have received little discussion or if you think that there is something that could change their rank that hasn't already be mentioned.

HA!

Chansey is exactly where I wanted her to be.

Back on topic, I would also like to second nominating Deo-D to be blacklisted. Everyone who is arguing about it now are either repeating what others have said verbatim, or shouldn't be posting at all.

Nominating for [A Rank]!

At first glance, Clefable tends to elicit mixed responses. On one hand, Clefable boasts an amazing mono-typing (Fairy) and has access to two incredible abilities : Magic Guard and Unaware. Cute Charm is too good, so I deem it irrelevant. :]
Clefable also has quite an expansive movepool, one that possesses a myriad of both offensive and defensive moves. From Moonblast, Flamethrower, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to Stealth Rock, Wish, Heal Bell and Knock Off, Clefable can be specially tailored to fit any specific role that a team might need (i.e - Cleric, Stealth Rock, Pivot, Calm Mind Sweeper). Clefable's sheer unpredictability requires different responses, making her list of true counters quite small.

However, all is not perfect for Clefable ; in fact, far from it. Clefable has a very average stat spread : 95 HP | 70 Atk | 73 Def | 95 SAtk | 90 SDef | 60 Spe. This puts Clefable into a job for competition with her other Pixie friends, such as Sylveon. Despite her ability to deal with them, Steel Types present an issue for Clefable as they can resist her STAB Moonblast and retaliate appropriately. Mega Venusaur can also prove to be problematic ; but just like her other "counters" Mega Venusaur must be careful to not get 2HKO'd by offensive Clefable's Psychic, should it choose to run it. Heatran is probably the best answer for a Clefable. Other than that, not too many things can safely switch in on Clefable due to its versatility.

Her efficiency in practice surprised me quite a bit and I feel like Clefable should have a chance to at least be discussed for low [A Rank]

Completely agree with this as well! Mono-Fairy typing is literally one of the best defensive typings in the game. Clefable is very much a jack of all trades in that it can fill so many roles.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Deoxys-S is nerfed because Defog, the moves that removes the hazards, also removes the screens of the opponent.
If Deoxys-S is not a lead it's ponly a fast sweeper with 95 Base Attack. True that is too fast and that makes good but his oiffensive movepool is as good as other pokemon like Dragonite, Garchomp, Salamence, Latios, Gengar, Starmie, Jirachi, Mew, which his high offensive option an cause unexpected moves from them.

About the S Pokemon, MLucario, Aegislash and Genesect are in the Top. Venusaur (note that 30% if them aren't Mega) are around the 20st position or even higher. Doexys-S is in UU range in both PO and Smogon. True that event pokemon are underrated but people are using Genesect just fine.

I wouldn't exactly say Deoxys-S is that nerfed by Defog.
Unlike other suicide hazard setters, Deoxys-S has a super-huge offensive movepool that deal with every single conventional Defogger in the metagame, and the unpredictability between hazard setter and Special sweeper guarantees that no Defogger can safely switch in and do its thing.
Again, usage stats do not necessarily dictate viability. Keep that in mind.

Dugtrio has the ability to trap and kill a Mega-Lucario as well for what it is worth.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Not reliably though.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Only D rank for Honchkrow? It's actually really good in practice. It's worthy of at least C, if not C+. Honchkrow makes Malamar look like a joke, so putting it in the same tier is insulting his potential :\

Building on to that, what really separates Krow from Staraptor or even Talonflame is its pretty decent Mixed stats. Whereas Staraptor and Talonflame are relagated to being walled on the Physical side of things, Honchkrow somewhat bypasses that with Heat Wave coming off of a Base 105 with Life Orb, making it a barely decent wallbreaker and Revenge killer with Moxie.

However, you could try running ScarfKrow, which bypasses the whole "slow priority issue". Jolly ScarfKrow outspeeds base 130s so at that point he becomes the fastest priority bar Extremespeed, and much like MoxieMence spamming Outrage, MoxieKrow just spams Sucker Punch once all of the defensive threats and anything that doesn't use a non-attacking move are gone. It's still risky though, so it's viable, but unreliable.

But putting that aside, it's pretty bad in this meta. Most Priority users out-priority it and it's neither fast nor bulky enough to take on OU's offensive meta. Nominating this for D rank.

This is basically the argument as to why Honch is D.

 

[Ziaf999]

I'm not sure if I can nominate it, but I'm curious why Tornadus-T isn't on this list. Even outside of rain teams it's an amazing pivot. If it's ran with 1-2 other U-Turn/Volt Switch users (like Genesect/Scizor/Rotoms/Talonflame), then it gets multiple opportunities to come in and threaten to KO or Knock Off their switch in. Regenerator lets it stay healthy all game to keep coming in, and it has so much synergy with U-Turn.

I thought he'd be B- or B at worst.

Tornadus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Hurricane
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- U-turn

 

[Ajwf]

So... Can we just agree on Slowbro being A and dropping Tentacruel to C? I think we discussed this way far back, and I'd like to see his rank reflect his massive walling potential.

SD Chomp not running outrage (Most run dragon claw from what I've heard) takes to +6 to KO Slowbro running 252/220 max defense. This isn't a resisted attack, no... it'd be earthquake. Dragonite needs +6 to OHKO with dragon claw. We've gone over the calcs, with his AV set he lives a solar beam from Charizard-Y. He has the ability to run full physical wall or supplement defense by set up sweeping with calm mind (it IS viable: You get that already massive defense, one boost to reach AV level and then 2 boosts to basically only be touched by status.

Nominating for [A Rank]!

At first glance, Clefable tends to elicit mixed responses. On one hand, Clefable boasts an amazing mono-typing (Fairy) and has access to two incredible abilities : Magic Guard and Unaware. Cute Charm is too good, so I deem it irrelevant. :]
Clefable also has quite an expansive movepool, one that possesses a myriad of both offensive and defensive moves. From Moonblast, Flamethrower, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt to Stealth Rock, Wish, Heal Bell and Knock Off, Clefable can be specially tailored to fit any specific role that a team might need (i.e - Cleric, Stealth Rock, Pivot, Calm Mind Sweeper). Clefable's sheer unpredictability requires different responses, making her list of true counters quite small.

However, all is not perfect for Clefable ; in fact, far from it. Clefable has a very average stat spread : 95 HP | 70 Atk | 73 Def | 95 SAtk | 90 SDef | 60 Spe. This puts Clefable into a job for competition with her other Pixie friends, such as Sylveon. Despite her ability to deal with them, Steel Types present an issue for Clefable as they can resist her STAB Moonblast and retaliate appropriately. Mega Venusaur can also prove to be problematic ; but just like her other "counters" Mega Venusaur must be careful to not get 2HKO'd by offensive Clefable's Psychic, should it choose to run it. Heatran is probably the best answer for a Clefable. Other than that, not too many things can safely switch in on Clefable due to its versatility.

Her efficiency in practice surprised me quite a bit and I feel like Clefable should have a chance to at least be discussed for low [A Rank]

I would say B rank at best. The cleric role is outclassed by Sylveon (Who has better SDef and SpA) and the blobs, while the unaware ability has a nasty inhibiting factor of not being able to run softboil. It has to run moonlight or wish/protect (already down two slots). The unaware set, possibly what could make it a fantastic niche pokemon, is completely and utterly outclassed by quagsire (unless specific type challenges ensue) due to quagy getting recover along with only one weakness in his typing. The only sweeper that clefable is consistently geared better towards is manaphy.

Yes, MG clefable is pretty cool. But then again, so is MG anything. Reuniculus dropped off into the great abyss because what do you need to be guarded from in this meta? (Although reun was also too slow even with TR... smogbird kills). Toxic spikes/spikes usage is down, phaze/status stall usage is down. No one cared to burn special attackers anyways, so I guess you have a nice immunity to SR (really wasn't needed) and leech seed.

The stats are very restrictive. To give you an idea, Audino has more bulk. Granted, less special attack, but you're still in the range of a pokemon that needs boosts to take hits. It isn't very OU viable unless you can get it a switch and then start cosmic powers ASAP. Unaware is worn down too easily, Magic guard needs to much time. Yes, no other pokemon can do both but Clefable cannot do both at the same time. Individually, it is outclassed by Quaggy, MGKazam (Sweeper), MGSigi (burn walls to make up for bulk, too), and all the aforementioned clerics.

 

[Photofluid]

Things that need to stop:

- Chansey vs Blissey
- M-Venusaur dropping (discussion on it is nice but don't ask for it to drop beause it's weak to (Pokemon/type) because everything has some counter
- Stuff on the blacklist people still mention

It's been discussed. It's not changing. Please stop cause it annoys everyone (including me)



To add onto this, I actually had a match with MVenusaur vs MVenusaur. It lasted WAY TOO LONG. This thing is also surprising versatile, at least more then you would expect. Is it running Leech Seed? Toxic? Can I switch in my Ferrothorn? What about Sludge Bomb? Can I switch into this, this, or this? It can beat defensive Pokemon with Toxic, or wear some others down with Leech Seed, while Sludge Bomb and Giga Drain can do a surprising amount of damage against things that might be considered switch ins, as some hate status, while others hate being worn down by constantly switching in to take even weaker attacks, especially those without reliable recovery, which btw, Mega Venusaur has (screw you Ferrothorn, you have been replaced.)

Edit: Sleep Powder is cool too

I would say it is rather predictable though, due to 4mss.

 

[TrippingRocks]

I would say it is rather predictable though, due to 4mss.

Well.. no. First of all, 4mss means that the pokemon needs more than 4 moves to perform their desired role, but since they're stuck with just 4 moves, the player is forced to pick out four of them. This means that M-Venusaur is less predictable because you don't know what 4 moves he has out of the list of desirable moves that he would want to have. And no, M-Venusaur doesn't even suffer from 4mss.

Of the viable moves, M-Venusaur can run Synthesis, Giga Drain, Sludge bomb, Earthquake, Leech Seed, Sleep powder and some other surprises. Most people see M-Venusaur as a wall, but I actually prefer to use him as a tank. With max HP and max Sp.atk investment, M-Venusaur can take and dish out a lot of pain. I personally use M-Venusaur with Synthesis, Giga drain, sludge bomb, and Hidden power fire.

 

[Always!]

I would say it is rather predictable though, due to 4mss.

Not really.

4MSS makes you realize what it can run after it attacks.

Your Scizor, thinking it can outlast Leech seed Variant? Bam, HP Fire to the....um....Metal Coat? I don't even know.

Anyway, point is, it has a set type of moves, but they can be combo'd a lot.

 

[Starfall11]

I think Suicune should at least be mentioned on this list. Probably as B class or B+. With the change to sleep mechanics this generation, Crocune has a pretty easy time sweeping teams.

Ferrothorn isn't as common, nor is Celebi. Mega Venasuar loses to most Suicune 1 vs 1 as long as Suicune can garner a few Calm Mind boosts. When his counters are taken out, he's unbelievably hard to overcome. He's always been an underrated pokemon in the competitive scene.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The unaware set, possibly what could make it a fantastic niche pokemon, is completely and utterly outclassed by quagsire

Quagsire is an absolute piece of shit, the only reason to ever consider using it over clefable is to wall scizor and bisharp (and lose to everything else lol), its own analysis acknowledges how bad and niche it is. I dont know how high you are to think that a fairy type with an insane movepool is outclassed by a bland water ground.

 

[Salemance]

I think Suicune should at least be mentioned on this list. Probably as B class or B+. With the change to sleep mechanics this generation, Crocune has a pretty easy time sweeping teams.

Ferrothorn isn't as common, nor is Celebi. Mega Venasuar loses to most Suicune 1 vs 1 as long as Suicune can garner a few Calm Mind boosts. When his counters are taken out, he's unbelievably hard to overcome. He's always been an underrated pokemon in the competitive scene.

Oh was Suicune not added? I know we discussed him in depth alongside Manaphy.....

Update time

Staraptor: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Starmie: Unranked ---> B- Rank
Mega Charizard Y: A ---> A+ Rank
Rotom-W stays in A+
Dragonite stays in A
Blastoise (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Noivern: Unranked ---> C Rank
Kabutops: Unranked ---> C Rank
Chandelure: Unranked ---> C+ Rank
Gardevoir / Gardevoir (Mega): Unranked ---> B Rank
Espeon: Unranked ---> B Rank
Latios: A+ ---> A
Latias: A+ ---> A
Entei: Unranked ---> B Rank
Quagsire: Unranked ---> C Rank
Honhckrow: Unranked ---> D Rank
Chansey: A ---> B+ Rank
Krookodile: Unranked ---> B Rank

Weird, and yet Kabutops was added....well guess it was since it was discussed more recently. Let me see if I can find the discussion on it..... ah, page 75. We discussed it but it never got far sadly. Only thing that was said was it below Manaphy is all so that would be B ranking.

EDIT:

Quagsire is an absolute piece of shit, the only reason to ever consider using it over clefable is to wall scizor and bisharp (and lose to everything else lol), its own analysis acknowledges how bad and niche it is. I dont know how high you are to think that a fairy type with an insane movepool is outclassed by a bland water ground.

While I can acknowledge that Quagsire is generally lackluster in many things, he does do a good job of walling (course I use a Scald, Stockpile, Toxic, Recover set to maximize both defenses best I can while burning and stalling the opposition to death) what he can given what he is doing is done right. He can be put under the same as Rotom-W in a way as grass is said by many to be an uncommon attacking type so he is able to do his uses while not being the most magnificent at them.

 

[Photofluid]

I wouldn't exactly say Deoxys-S is that nerfed by Defog.
Unlike other suicide hazard setters, Deoxys-S has a super-huge offensive movepool that deal with every single conventional Defogger in the metagame, and the unpredictability between hazard setter and Special sweeper guarantees that no Defogger can safely switch in and do its thing.
Again, usage stats do not necessarily dictate viability. Keep that in mind.


252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Not reliably though.

One do not need to defog in the face of Deoxys-S, and due to having limited move slots(let's not forget you need to bring EH) its move usage tends to be somehow predictable.

In fact, due to the general nerf to HO teams, it is also more difficult to keep your EH up, making the job of Deoxys-S less effective. I won't argue about its actual ranking, but Gen VI is definitely very unfriendly to Deoxys-S.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Umm...thanks for the friendly reminder...(?)



What the HELL is wrong with people? You all think all Deoxys-S can do is Hazards. Priority was ALWAYS a problem, even in Gen 5, but that didn't stop it.



Because the ladder is filled with idiots--short, sweet, and simple. We've been over this...



You know what? Why doesn't somebody just put a note next to it saying "Blacklisted, but S" or something like that. I'm sure we're all tired of Deoxys-S arguments. This is turning into Arcanine, Florges, Jolteon, and Mega Venusaur all over again...

inb4 "I got swept by it once, therefore it's broken".
You obviously have a stick up your ass about it, so I'm just not even going to bother arguing with you about this anymore, as I'm pretty sure the majority of players already disagree with you.