Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Omgwyatt said:
I realize it's part of the deal in this thread, but I feel like all the talk for moving things up a fraction of a category is just silly. It's just not worth arguing for 4 pages if something is a b- or a b, it isn't.
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What happens is someone makes an argument for something to be moved up from B- to A, but then in all the discussion we decide it should be in B+, then just B. We don't generally set out to move something half a rank.
 
Tornadus-T is really good. knock off/uturn/superpower/air slash @ life orb or AV. Vastly different sets.

AV will probably have more traction since it is easier to use. It defines this meta: it is bulky enough to switch into 90% of the meta, is incredibly fast with a 1st turn knock off or u turn, keeps momentum while never itself getting worn down due to regenerator, and has great coverage in superpower + airslash that dents many common walls (heatran, chansey, tyranitar, conkeldurr, mega venu).

Life orb has less switchin flexibility (can no longer check genesect, greninja) but can really put some slower balanced teams in a huge bind since they are unprepared for the fast life orb boosted fight+fly combo. Life orb boosted u turns as well.

Pairs beautifully with pinsir, talonflame, raptor.

Straight up A tier, or A- tier if it existed. Like Deo-S, one argument for it is how unique its niche is. Deo-S might not be an amazing pokemon, but no pokemon can do what it does. Same for tornadus. It's unique as fuck with its speed tier, access to regenerator, knock off + uturn, and coverage.
 
(This post is more about ranking descriptions than about Rotom-W. The purpose of this post is to address these descriptions)

I don't need to write a wall of text this time to support my claim this time, but I would like to reiterate a point that I made about 80 pages ago. The descriptions for A rank describe everything that isn't true about Rotom-W, while S rank's description fits the omnipresent utility god perfectly.
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and (because rotom-w isn't a wall) Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability (how does a grass type even "check" volt switch consistently?). If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws (survivability sometimes), those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths (literally everything else). If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.
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A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support (wrong) or have some flaws that prevent them from doing this consistently (rotom-w is pretty consistent and has very few flaws). Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns (lol no) or cannot create free turns easily themselves (no), but can still do their job most of the time.
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The definitions do not match rotom-w at all. If you're going to prohibit discussion on rotom-w, at least change these definitions to be accurate. I feel that this is a flaw that needs to be addressed if Rotom-W will forever remain A+ Rank.
 
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Branflakes raises a good point. S Rank technically fits Rotom-W perfectly, and yet it isn't. I think that's due to the unofficial requirement that a pokemon must be impressive to be S Rank, it must truly look like the best of the best. Rotom is bland, the stereotypical "Boring but effective" route. He doesn't sweep, he doesn't wall, all he does is be annoying and act as a utility check. So, even if he fits the S description to the letter he isn't considered it because he is easily handled and not particularly threatening.
 
Colonial said:
Branflakes raises a good point. S Rank technically fits Rotom-W perfectly, and yet it isn't. I think that's due to the unofficial requirement that a pokemon must be impressive to be S Rank, it must truly look like the best of the best. Rotom is bland, the stereotypical "Boring but effective" route. He doesn't sweep, he doesn't wall, all he does is be annoying and act as a utility check. So, even if he fits the S description to the letter he isn't considered it because he is easily handled and not particularly threatening.
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Rotom-W doesn't fit the S rank description because it's predictable and only semi versatile. Granted it is an amazing pokemon that checks a lot of pokes in the current meta. Rotom requires a little support as the washing machine does not like to get status'd, now while this isn't a problem for other walls that can recover off the damage, Rotom doesn't get that luxury and instead is only stuck with Pain Split which relies on your opponent's pokemon and rest which puts Rotom inactivate for two turns (unless you're Chesto Resto but that is only good for one use). Rotom's versatility is quite static when compared to those of the S ranking as at most it's variety only extends too Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/Filler/Filler from where Rotom will fulfil a sub roll such as Tricking, Chesto Resto or the rarely seen sub split, before reverting back to its usually style of play.
 
I will go as far as nominating Blissey to B+

It might be not as bulky as Chansey, but it has a free Item Slot for extra recovery in Leftovers and passes Wishes powerful enough to fully heal up most team mates that would dry to any priority.
Additionally, it has the option to run Ice Beam or Flamethrower, making people think twice because switching in something like Scizor on a predicted Toxin.
And unlike Chansey, Blissey's bulk isn't affected by moves like Knock-Off (which is very common now) or Trick.
It is the definition of Special Tank and builds a great defensive core with Skarmory but doesn't really relies on being run with 252+ SpD/252 HP.

252+ SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 247-292 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 516-608 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blissey: 324-382 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just some random calcs to show its defensive power. I don't recomment switching or staying in in any of those things or run 0 HP/0 SpD.
 
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Where should hydreigon be? B- or C+?
He still hits hard, the steel nerf helped him a lot, but now he has fairies to deal with
 
Can we think of a more systematic way to decide a Pokemon's viability? For example, if a Pokemon can sweep or wall through 50% of OU then it is S rank. 40% makes it A and so on. By having a clear/numerical cut off criterion, it'd make it easier for people to agree on rank of certain mon. Otherwise, people would keep arguing over stuff like Megasaur till the end of gen 8.
 
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Pyritie said:
Where should hydreigon be? B- or C+?
He still hits hard, the steel nerf helped him a lot, but now he has fairies to deal with
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You could replace Hydreigon in this statement with any half-decent dragon in the game. I'm sure Hydreigon is still viable this gen, but how? What sets are best? Why use it over the Latis? What makes it good to use? These are all questions you could answer when bringing up Hydreigon other than 2 lines that would fit for all the BW OU Dragons. Coming from someone who has limited experience using/facing Hydreigon this gen, I'm curious.
 
LordBlah said:
Rotom-W doesn't fit the S rank description because it's predictable and only semi versatile. Granted it is an amazing pokemon that checks a lot of pokes in the current meta. Rotom requires a little support as the washing machine does not like to get status'd, now while this isn't a problem for other walls that can recover off the damage, Rotom doesn't get that luxury and instead is only stuck with Pain Split which relies on your opponent's pokemon and rest which puts Rotom inactivate for two turns (unless you're Chesto Resto but that is only good for one use). Rotom's versatility is quite static when compared to those of the S ranking as at most it's variety only extends too Volt Switch/Hydro Pump/Filler/Filler from where Rotom will fulfil a sub roll such as Tricking, Chesto Resto or the rarely seen sub split, before reverting back to its usually style of play.
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Rotom-W isn't predictable since it can effectively run a multitude of sets, including but not limited to: TrickSpecs, TrickScarf, Physically defensive and Specially defensive. It can either use ChestoRest or Lefties on defensive sets. Other than the mandatory Hydro Pump its movepool makes it unpredictable: you could expect a Volt Switch as its electric STAB of choice, only to be 2HKO'd by a Thunderbolt or paralyzed by a Discharge. You can try to counter it with Trevenant or Latios, only to be 2HKO'd by Dark Pulse, you can try to send in something that doesn't mind a burn from WoW, only to be poisoned by Toxic or paralyzed by Thunder Wave. You can try to wall it with Blissey, only for Rotom-W to use her as Pain Split bait.

Most Rotom-W sets don't fear status at all - not only is it immune to paralysis and doesn't care about the attack drop from a burn, but if it's running Volt Switch (most Rotom-W do) it won't care much about the residual damage either. Or it could just run ChestoRest to make it a temporary status absorber for early- and mid-game.

If Mega Venusaur, who has far more serious flaws, is S-rank I see no reason why Rotom-W can't be there either.
 
If we were following the descriptions of rankings strictly, landorus, garchomp, greninja, keldeo and talonflame would all be S. Battling experience is far more accurate then strictly following guidelines that are mostly arbitrary. Rotom cannot effectively run a multituted of sets because the only way for it to check the things its supposed to is by using that boring yet practical physical defensive one. Go ahead and run your choiced or sp def things and watch as you can literally only switch into talonflame and pinsir once. Rotom is the kind of pokemon that loses hp literally everytime it gets on the field, not to mention the mirror matches in turn 1 where both of them get burned, all of which leads to it being sacked lategame. I dont even get why people think that the rain nerf/gen shift was good for rotom since all it did was kill its offensive sets and its now forced to run phys def spreads instead of sp def ones due to new threats.
 
nkhlshnd99 said:
Most trevenant I see are specially defensive but that's just me.
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they're about as viable as each other, specially defensive gets by starmie, physically defensive gets by excadrill, mega blastoise just ruins both sets, him and tentacruel is probably like mega venusaur against heatran, trev wins but it takes a fucking long time, donphan just loses

so really, for anti spinning purposes, you either beat starmie or excadrill, not both
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
If we were following the descriptions of rankings strictly, landorus, garchomp, greninja, keldeo and talonflame would all be S. Battling experience is far more accurate then strictly following guidelines that are mostly arbitrary. Rotom cannot effectively run a multituted of sets because the only way for it to check the things its supposed to is by using that boring yet practical physical defensive one. Go ahead and run your choiced or sp def things and watch as you can literally only switch into talonflame and pinsir once. Rotom is the kind of pokemon that loses hp literally everytime it gets on the field, not to mention the mirror matches in turn 1 where both of them get burned, all of which leads to it being sacked lategame. I dont even get why people think that the rain nerf/gen shift was good for rotom since all it did was kill its offensive sets and its now forced to run phys def spreads instead of sp def ones due to new threats.
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Rotom's viability goes beyond countering Talonflame and Pinsir. Don't talk like that's the only reason to use Rotom. He can most certainly still run offensive sets, I use them and I run into them often. I know personal experience is a bad indicator of viability, but still. Even if your statement that Rotom has to run PhysDef was true, I don't see how that effects his sets that much. TrickScarf, ChestoRest, and Pain Split sets don't care much about the EV spread and Specs sets can just run some defence if you really need it. And let's not even get into the various status moves he can use, Thunder Wave and Toxic are still things to look out for.

I also have no idea what you mean by Rotom being a pokemon that loses health every time it enters the battlefield, since every pokemon bar Magic Guarders lose health when under the same situation you stated, and as such that argument cannot be called relevant.

The gen shift was most definitely good for Rotom, why the hell do you think it's at the top of the December usage list? New threats to check, a slower, more physically inclined metagame, the loss of rain hurting other bulky waters much more seeing as they got literally nothing has all helped out the washing machine.
 
Colonial said:
Rotom's viability goes beyond countering Talonflame and Pinsir. Don't talk like that's the only reason to use Rotom. He can most certainly still run offensive sets, I use them and I run into them often. I know personal experience is a bad indicator of viability, but still. Even if your statement that Rotom has to run PhysDef was true, I don't see how that effects his sets that much. TrickScarf, ChestoRest, and Pain Split sets don't care much about the EV spread and Specs sets can just run some defence if you really need it. And let's not even get into the various status moves he can use, Thunder Wave and Toxic are still things to look out for.

I also have no idea what you mean by Rotom being a pokemon that loses health every time it enters the battlefield, since every pokemon bar Magic Guarders lose health when under the same situation you stated, and as such that argument cannot be called relevant.

The gen shift was most definitely good for Rotom, why the hell do you think it's at the top of the December usage list? New threats to check, a slower, more physically inclined metagame, the loss of rain hurting other bulky waters much more seeing as they got literally nothing has all helped out the washing machine.
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I never said it's only used for stoping those threats, i said it needs a phys def spread to stop the threats its supposed to. I have my share of rotoms being 2hkoed by my talonflame after some small amount of prior damage or my unboosted pinsir doing the same which is just ridiculous and should never happen. The shift from a rain-free meta has made many sets obsolete, which includes choiced ones so no, i dont see how exactly did rotom benefited from this. Usage is irrelevant to this discussion so i wont bother with that. My point about it losing health everytime is because rotom is a slow volt switch user that lacks recovery as such its much more prone to taking hits+rocks damage than most other defensive pokemons.
 
Branflakes325 said:
(This post is more about ranking descriptions than about Rotom-W. The purpose of this post is to address these descriptions)

I don't need to write a wall of text this time to prove my point, but I would like to reiterate a point that I made about 80 pages ago. The descriptions for A rank describe everything that isn't true about Rotom-W, while S rank's description fits the omnipresent utility god perfectly.



The definitions do not match rotom-w at all. If you're going to prohibit discussion on rotom-w, at least change these definitions to be accurate. I feel that this is a flaw that needs to be addressed if Rotom-W will forever remain A+ Rank.
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This is according to you, not a universal fact. Obviously, if Rotom-W ended up in A+, this happened because it indeed had enough flaws to prevent it from being in S rank, namely lack of recovery and good but not great bulk, both of which make Rotom-W rather easy to wear down and overwhelm. I am just laying out facts not opinions. Whether you think that those flaws are enough to prevent Rotom-W from going to S rank or not is up to each person's opinion, but we decided (it was a very close call) that it belongs to A+ rank (and just so you know, i am a supporter of Rotom-W for S rank as well). So, instead of disregarding Rotom-W's flaws in order to make it look more like S rank, you should respect the good arguments laid out from both sides and the decision that was taken after much thought from the OU mod team.
 
Guess I'll be the one to throw this dog a bone: I nominate Metagross for C-Rank.

This latest gen has not been very kind to this Pseudo Legend. Of all the Pokemon to get hit with the changes to the Meta-Game, Metagross is perhaps the one to suffer the most. It lost it's Neutral Damage to Dark and Ghost, adding two new weaknesses with the only thing it getting in return is the a resistance to Fairy-typing. That said, it still has a pretty solid physical move pool, and when paired with an air ballon, can serve as a hard counter to Mega Venasuar.

Metagross' biggest competition though is definitely Aegislash, which shares the same exact weaknesses, but has more immunities and more utility.
 
SmashBrosBrawl said:
I never said it's only used for stoping those threats, i said it needs a phys def spread to stop the threats its supposed to. I have my share of rotoms being 2hkoed by my talonflame after some small amount of prior damage or my unboosted pinsir doing the same which is just ridiculous and should never happen. The shift from a rain-free meta has made many sets obsolete, which includes choiced ones so no, i dont see how exactly did rotom benefited from this. Usage is irrelevant to this discussion so i wont bother with that. My point about it losing health everytime is because rotom is a slow volt switch user that lacks recovery as such its much more prone to taking hits+rocks damage than most other defensive pokemons.
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My usage point was addressing your statement that Rotom wasn't helped by the metagame shift- which he most definitely was. The rain nerf I won't contest though, that hurt Rotom just as much as the other abusers.

Once again I find myself arguing about something that everyone is tired of hearing about. I'm going to move on to Crymson's Metagross argument. Everything he said is true, and though Metagross still takes a hefty amount from Venu if it's an offensive set with HP Fire it'll do the job.

Competition from Aegislash, continuing coverage issues, 2 new weaknesses, lack of a boosting move or recovery move, and not having any particularly interesting qualities despite being a Pseudo... it all hurts. A lot. Even with the new Assault Vest, there are users that are just as good if not better than Metagross. I love the robot but I personally can't see it above C Rank.

Edit: Oh, and Metagross can apparently use Weakness Policy fairly well on it's Agility set, netting what is essentially a Shell Smash. However, Metagross would have to live the hit and such a set looks gimmicky to me, not to mention that it would be facing competition from Dragonite as a Weakness Policy user. Dragonite would probably be a superior choice because of Multiscale and better coverage.
 
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Ok guys i wanted to hear your opinions on Wobbufet who i think should be C+ Rank.

The reasons for this is his ability to trap and ko many pokes in the meta including every single fighting type (not mienshao) in the tier and of course his classic counter coat set. He is also very good against scarf gene that has not u-turned and reg gene as he cab take one u-turn then counter back the next poke to come out often koing any pokes that are not ghost types. Furthermore physically defensive wobb is one of the single best checks to mega luke around and can take out many top tier threats. It also cant be set up on easily thanks to encore which also makes pokes easy set up fodder for your team.

The reason i am only nominating it for C+ Though is because it lacks custap berry for the prio destiny bond which sucks and its typing does not do it any favors. Also it takes a lot of prediction to use unless you want to be set up on and it's vulnerability to status and against stall in general sucks. that being said it still is a amazing trapper and when custap is released it should b ranked higher.
 
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