well the only moveset for NP lucario is NP,vacumn wave,aura sphere and flash cannon. maybe if lucario got access to flamethrower or ice beam (XD yeah imagine lucario using flamethrower or ice beam) then i could agree to NP being the superior moveset but close combat is 240 base power opposed to aura sphere's 160 BASE POWER!
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XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
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Megaluke also has Shadow Ball. Which provides literally perfect coverage with Aura Sphere, making it a lot harder to deal with than SD Megaluke. Flash Cannon is a great addition to Luke's arsenal because it adds a second STAB for Luke to use Adaptability with, meaning it can hit more things for good damage.
Dark Pulse is generally better than Shadow Ball because it provides the same coverage aside from Heracross (which doesn't really matter), but has a nifty flinch chance.
I suppose that's a good point. Steel+Fighting+Dark is good coverage, though without Flash Cannon you miss out on fairies, which Shadow Ball hits.
One counter/revenge killer isn't enough to balance out genesect. Everyone knows that genesect dies to Banded talon, that calculation has been shown many times, it's everything else that has to watch out. Same goes for Deoxys having trouble with Mandibuzz. I'm not saying those are the only things potentially keeping them OU, I'm just referring to this comment.Hey Genesect:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 273-322 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
yeah no. At least Mega Luke is justified (pun not intended), but with Deo-S, it's pretty hard countered by Mandibuzz.
I guess it's time for opinions huh
Mega Luke is, without any doubt, an unhealthy addition to the OU metagame. It has the option to go physical with SD, special with NP or even mixed with Work Up/Agility/Substitute, and when it enters the battlefield, you don't know what set it is running. Both sets are very much viable and fulfill the same purpose (sweeping), but they have vastly different "counters" (with its massive offenses and amazing coverage there's not much that's comfortably tanking hits from it to begin with, though) and because they do the same thing it's not like you can easily guess what it's going to do in the context of its team anyways. Would we take Genesect, for example, we could at least say that, when there's a Talonflame on its team, there's a decent chance that it's not a scarf set (although it's still hard enough to figure out what it would be, but more on that later). With Mega Luke, you're left compeltely in the dark for one turn, meaning you're usually put in a 50/50 position, where you have to choose between your best answer to its special set and your best answer to its physical set. To me, this is hardly competitive and something we should accept in OU.
So to recap, let's look at the factors that make Mega Lucario broken:
1: Sheer power. Even unboosted, it hits very hard off of both sides of the spectrum, at +2 it is devastating.
2: It is very hard to revenge kill. Its speed tier is already exceptional as it stands, and thanks to its access to several priority moves, switching your Talonflame in doesn't necessarily mean that you've beaten it. Its speed tier goes a long way in helping it, as it can now outspeed sooo many relevant threats without having to resort to priority moves.
3: It is unpredictable. For at least one turn, you don't know what it's going to do, meaning that the thing you're switching in might turn out to be a liability after all. You can sac whatever is in of course, but if it can't KO, Luke can just set up on it and then everything basically dies.
4: It is overcentralizing. In order to reliably take care of it, you usually need two answers to it, namely one to the physical set and one to the special set. This is especially true for stall, since stall tends to lack something that can revenge kill it, meaning it needs things that can wall Mega Luke, and that's basically impossible.
Really, the only legit argument I know of that is anti-ban is that it's pretty frail, but that would only be a truly awful thing if it weren't powerful enough on its own and would need that boost in order to severely dent things, but it doesn't have to. Here's a fun calc for you:
252 SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 268-316 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Does that require a boost? Don't think so.
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Genesect, at the moment, is only manageable because so many people run scarf that you don't have to think twice before switching something in. However, its potential is way too much for this meta. Here's a list of things it can viably do:
- Specially based mixed scarf (amazing coverage)
- Physically based mixed scarf (trades coverage for surprise value and a stronger U-Turn)
- Choice Band (priority subtitutes for its lack of high speed, hits really really hard)
- Mixed LO (now can actually switch moves, abusing its amazing coverage to great success)
- Physically based Shift Gear (catches many people off-guard, pretty fine sweeper)
- Specially based Shift Gear/Rock Polish (screws with your mind even more)
- Expert Belt/sash lure (Heatran walls it, you say? Let's see if (BAN ME PLEASE) can tank that HP Ground just as well)
And let's not forget that, thanks to its colourful movepool, it can use many variations in its moveset per set. Add to this 120/120 offenses and Download and you might just grasp how dangerous this thing really is. If you're saying this is not stupidly overpowered in the OU metagame, I don't think you've really battled many good players with a Genesect that doesn't carry a scarf.
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Deoxys-S? I can be short about that. It's versatile, it's useful, it's also not good enough to be OP. Fast hazards aren't as relevant as they used to be with Defog, priority overkill, etc. yadda yadda, dual screens can also be done by Klefki and fast screens are a pretty small niche. Its offensive set, while nice, is not as great as people are making it to be, though. Well yes, awesome coverage and enough speed to succeed, but I just find its damage output to be disappointing. It's not like everything that would usually take care of the other sets are suddenly threatened, like it is with Mega Luke. Aegislash, Deo-S' worst nightmare, still comes in without anything to fear, as HP Fire fails to 4HKO Lefties Aegislash (talk about disappointing damage output), while Aegislash still destroys it with its STABs. It's probably its best set, but even with that, it just doesn't hit hard enough to be overpowered as long as people actually aren't as foolish to ignore the possibility of it running this set. Really, every team carries an answer to this set, whether it be strong priority on offenseive teams or just bulky Pokemon that can tank its somewhat disappointing damage output on stall. The meta has naturally adapted to it, its speed doesn't matter that much anymore.
Conclusion:
Mega Lucario: BANBANBAN
Genesect: Ban
Deoxys-S: No ban
Mega Luke is, without any doubt, an unhealthy addition to the OU metagame. It has the option to go physical with SD, special with NP or even mixed with Work Up/Agility/Substitute, and when it enters the battlefield, you don't know what set it is running. Both sets are very much viable and fulfill the same purpose (sweeping), but they have vastly different "counters" (with its massive offenses and amazing coverage there's not much that's comfortably tanking hits from it to begin with, though) and because they do the same thing it's not like you can easily guess what it's going to do in the context of its team anyways. Would we take Genesect, for example, we could at least say that, when there's a Talonflame on its team, there's a decent chance that it's not a scarf set (although it's still hard enough to figure out what it would be, but more on that later). With Mega Luke, you're left compeltely in the dark for one turn, meaning you're usually put in a 50/50 position, where you have to choose between your best answer to its special set and your best answer to its physical set. To me, this is hardly competitive and something we should accept in OU.
So to recap, let's look at the factors that make Mega Lucario broken:
1: Sheer power. Even unboosted, it hits very hard off of both sides of the spectrum, at +2 it is devastating.
2: It is very hard to revenge kill. Its speed tier is already exceptional as it stands, and thanks to its access to several priority moves, switching your Talonflame in doesn't necessarily mean that you've beaten it. Its speed tier goes a long way in helping it, as it can now outspeed sooo many relevant threats without having to resort to priority moves.
3: It is unpredictable. For at least one turn, you don't know what it's going to do, meaning that the thing you're switching in might turn out to be a liability after all. You can sac whatever is in of course, but if it can't KO, Luke can just set up on it and then everything basically dies.
4: It is overcentralizing. In order to reliably take care of it, you usually need two answers to it, namely one to the physical set and one to the special set. This is especially true for stall, since stall tends to lack something that can revenge kill it, meaning it needs things that can wall Mega Luke, and that's basically impossible.
Really, the only legit argument I know of that is anti-ban is that it's pretty frail, but that would only be a truly awful thing if it weren't powerful enough on its own and would need that boost in order to severely dent things, but it doesn't have to. Here's a fun calc for you:
252 SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 268-316 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Does that require a boost? Don't think so.
-----
Genesect, at the moment, is only manageable because so many people run scarf that you don't have to think twice before switching something in. However, its potential is way too much for this meta. Here's a list of things it can viably do:
- Specially based mixed scarf (amazing coverage)
- Physically based mixed scarf (trades coverage for surprise value and a stronger U-Turn)
- Choice Band (priority subtitutes for its lack of high speed, hits really really hard)
- Mixed LO (now can actually switch moves, abusing its amazing coverage to great success)
- Physically based Shift Gear (catches many people off-guard, pretty fine sweeper)
- Specially based Shift Gear/Rock Polish (screws with your mind even more)
- Expert Belt/sash lure (Heatran walls it, you say? Let's see if (BAN ME PLEASE) can tank that HP Ground just as well)
And let's not forget that, thanks to its colourful movepool, it can use many variations in its moveset per set. Add to this 120/120 offenses and Download and you might just grasp how dangerous this thing really is. If you're saying this is not stupidly overpowered in the OU metagame, I don't think you've really battled many good players with a Genesect that doesn't carry a scarf.
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Deoxys-S? I can be short about that. It's versatile, it's useful, it's also not good enough to be OP. Fast hazards aren't as relevant as they used to be with Defog, priority overkill, etc. yadda yadda, dual screens can also be done by Klefki and fast screens are a pretty small niche. Its offensive set, while nice, is not as great as people are making it to be, though. Well yes, awesome coverage and enough speed to succeed, but I just find its damage output to be disappointing. It's not like everything that would usually take care of the other sets are suddenly threatened, like it is with Mega Luke. Aegislash, Deo-S' worst nightmare, still comes in without anything to fear, as HP Fire fails to 4HKO Lefties Aegislash (talk about disappointing damage output), while Aegislash still destroys it with its STABs. It's probably its best set, but even with that, it just doesn't hit hard enough to be overpowered as long as people actually aren't as foolish to ignore the possibility of it running this set. Really, every team carries an answer to this set, whether it be strong priority on offenseive teams or just bulky Pokemon that can tank its somewhat disappointing damage output on stall. The meta has naturally adapted to it, its speed doesn't matter that much anymore.
Conclusion:
Mega Lucario: BANBANBAN
Genesect: Ban
Deoxys-S: No ban
This post basically sums up why Mega Lucario should be banned, and my opinion is that we have already discussed it enough.
In addition, Deoxys-S has been heavily discussed on pages 15,16, and to a lesser extent 17 on this thread, and I think the overall verdict was that although it is a powerful lead, it is not unhealthy. Before bringing up Deoxys-S, I would certainly advise reading those pages, because very good points were put forward for both sides of the argument.
One thing that bothers me about Genesect is that it can literally be slapped onto just about every team in existence, and the team wouldn't really suffer any consequences for it, it had this same problem when it was first introduced too. Admittedly, there are more Genesect checks/counters this gen, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is balanced.
The main question with Genesect that we have to ask ourselves is this: Do we really want to see Genesect on just about every team out there?
This is a very good point. Mispredicting which set Genesect is running can result in you not only losing one pokemon, but your entire team.
Quick post on Genesect
Right now, I'm leaning on the ban side of the argument for Genesect.
I've only utilized the Scarf set so I'll admit beforehand that my point of view is probably very premature.
Genesect's scarf set is extremely useful for momentum keeping (solid base 99 Speed + STAB + Potential Download Boosted U-Turn) and revenge killing certain threats that may get out of hand. Genesect is an absolute dick to defensive teams in my opinion because its mindless U Turn spamming + great coverage is somewhat hard to bypass and consistently provide an answer for. Fire Type Pokemon are a great answer to Genesect in general but can't do much if all Genesect does is U-Turn out on them.
Scarfed Genesect is so different from other Pivot Pokemon mainly due to its ability Download and great coverage (Flamethrower, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt). Physically Defensive Pokemon hate taking a boosted coverage move while Specially Defensive Pokemon probably won't appreciate a boosted STAB U-Turn. The sheer amount of offensive pressure it can apply is really something to watch out for and makes it difficult for certain team archetypes to function properly.
As much as I am for banning Genesect, I'm also a bit on the fence. Genesect is a threatening offensive Pokemon that cock-blocks too many team styles a bit too much ; at the same time, there are a good number of Pokemon in OU who can come in and pretty much scare out Genesect. Heatran, Rotom-H, Rotom-W, Specially Defensive Zapdos, Slowbro and Assault Vest Conkeldurr are all pretty good answers for Genesect in many situations. Expert Belt can screw over these Pokemon in certain scenarios but then the lack of Choice Scarf makes it easier to deal with Genesect by utilizing faster Pokemon such as Garchomp, Latios, Greninja, Talonflame, etc.
Like I said, I'm still testing out Genesect (Mega Lucario's testing is over for me haha it's too broken) and I'm willing to change views. But for now I'll take a seat in the ban camp for now.
EDIT:
I'm not necessarily disagreeing here but we should be a little careful.
Ease of access should not be a factor when deciding whether or not a Pokemon should be banned. Given a metagame, there will always be a "good Pokemon" that can simply be slapped onto a team. That's simply unavoidable.
For example, Rotom-Wash this generation is simply god-like because of the amount of support it brings to the table. And trust me, I'm slightly guilty of slapping on a Rotom-Wash variant because I know it's so good it'll work 90% of the time lol
Genesect is an overbearing threat that may need a bit of checking out but the fact that Genesect can be placed onto any team archetype without too much fear isn't a factor of banning in my opinion.
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Apologies if some of this has been said already, but I think it's important to cover all my points in one post rather than having to refer back to other things.
I've never really liked the term "broken", both the word itself and the meaning. I just don't think it's possible to construct an objective standard, and thus clearly these judgements will be highly subjective. In my opinion, whether or not a pokemon should be banned is not entirely to do with how good it is. I think there are some things that are healthy for the metagame, and other things that are not. Primarily, I don't like to see a metagame where results are based on luck, in one form or another. This includes team matchup issues, to an extent (although some teams are of course, just bad). We've got to a point where, unless we make a whole slew of bans, it's never going to be possible to counter everything with one team. There are too many scary offensive threats, particularly set up sweepers, out there. Now I notice that of the three suspects that have been proposed, one of them is a frightening sweeper, while the other two are primarily used as revenge killers. Revenge killers are the way that you get around all of the scary threats, the way you can cover your bases, such that you do stand a chance against the majority of attacking threats and the majority of attacking teams. This reduces the impact of luck on the metagame, so I think that in general revenge killers are healthy for the metagame.
One thing our current list of suspects has is that is that they all have very few good counters. We've come to accept that there will be pokemon with very few counters in OU for some time now, for at least a generation. The key thing to realise is that it is not OK for sweepers to have no counters. Essentially, if a good sweeper beats its counter, then it has a good chance of killing the rest of your team too. If you can't counter something that is not good at sweeping, then you lose a pokemon. This is, of course, a big deal, but unless the pokemon in question finds it easy to do this multiple times, especially if it can switch in, this is not "broken" in and of itself. Lucario, specifically, is a potent sweeper. If it sets up a boost and its counter goes down, it's pretty much toast. You have no option but to counter Lucario somehow, and this is really quite difficult, as many people in this thread have no doubt already shown. Lucarionite deserves to be banned for sure.
However, the other two pokemon are more questionable as suspects. I'll discuss Deoxys-S first, since I'm rather more sure about where it belongs. By and large, Deoxys-S has two sets, the hazard setter and the Life Orb sweeper; I don't think any others are worthy of consideration (perhaps a hybrid of the two, I suppose). I think the Life Orb sweeper set is far and away the better of the two. The hazard setter is not all that much better at its job than its competitors, and the effectiveness of its hazards are more questionable than ever. Yes, I still think SR is the best move in the game, but setting up spikes in addition I'm less convinced by. Setting up SR on its own is almost always a net gain, since it takes as many turns to remove it as it took you to set it up, but if you suicide your hazards setter for SR and a layer of spikes, you've really lost out on a lot if they are removed. I understand that this set would probably be run on a very offensive team, but I don't really believe that you wouldn't be able to find one turn to remove the hazards. If you really can't find a single free turn throughout the entire game, which I find quite hard to believe, does this not speak more of deoxys's teammates than of deoxys itself? Deoxys's whole team would have to be horrifically overpowered. In reality, when I don't defog the hazards away in such a situation, it's not because I couldn't, but because I chose not to. If I had to choose between removing two layers of hazards on my side of the field, and getting a KO, I would quite often choose the KO. I also think spikes are less effective because more flying pokemon are being used, which are immune. As for how effective deo-s is at setting up hazards, I find it less effective than deoxys-d. There is so much priority right now that I think most teams should be able to limit deoxys-s to stealth rock, assuming that it leads. Aegislash, in particular, can deal with deoxys-s quite easily, as can talonflame. If deoxys-s isn't leading, it might well get more, but in that situation I think a deo-d would do even better. Also, if you only want SR, Garchomp and Terrrakion are really great, as they are useful both offensively and defensively, in addition to their support role.
The Life Orb set is, as people have said, reasonably hard to counter. Aegislash, mega mawile, along with a few other steels and some assault vest users are your best bets. But as I said before, having few counters doesn't really make a pokemon overpowered unless it is threatening to sweep your team. Contrary to what people have said, deo-s is not a good cleaner. It has two stat-dropping moves that it relies heavily upon, it very often 2HKOes things rather than OHKOing them, and apart from anything else, it's effectively not fast enough because it usually lacks priority. I've used deo-s alongside priority based cleaners like CB Genesect, Talonflame, Lucario and Pinsir, and I find that these clean far more often than deo-s would, even without setup. What LO deoxys-s provides is great revenge killing, which for me is a good thing, and some mid-game wallbreaking power. It isn't really able to switch in at all, so I don't feel that it is able to come in and kill something enough times to be considered overpowered. edit: I also forgot to mention that the deo-s user often has to guess correctly to get around its would-be counters.
As for genesect, I really don't know. I really appreciate the revenge killing capabilities provided by the scarf and band (espeed) sets, and I do think genesect is quite counterable, excluding U-turn. However, there is just something inherently broken about U-turn; in the typical situation we consider to establish if a pokemon counters another, the genesect team almost always comes out on top. Basically any pokemon with U-turn is uncounterable; all it has to do is be able to switch in, and force something out. Genesect is perhaps the most able to do this of any u-turner we've seen, not to mention that its U-turns actually do substantial damage. Overall though, I don't know. I've had far less trouble with this pokemon than previously. Part of this is because Aegislash is a wonderful switchin. The sweeping sets, which posed a lot of the problem last gen, don't seem to be too common, and I've seen very little trapping used alongside genesect (although I always though the trapping was the side of this worthy of banning). What I see is mostly revenge killers, which as I've said, are a positive influence. Perhaps this is just that people on the ladder haven't worked everything out yet, I don't know. I just don't see too much of a problem at the moment, even if there might be one in the future.
I've never really liked the term "broken", both the word itself and the meaning. I just don't think it's possible to construct an objective standard, and thus clearly these judgements will be highly subjective. In my opinion, whether or not a pokemon should be banned is not entirely to do with how good it is. I think there are some things that are healthy for the metagame, and other things that are not. Primarily, I don't like to see a metagame where results are based on luck, in one form or another. This includes team matchup issues, to an extent (although some teams are of course, just bad). We've got to a point where, unless we make a whole slew of bans, it's never going to be possible to counter everything with one team. There are too many scary offensive threats, particularly set up sweepers, out there. Now I notice that of the three suspects that have been proposed, one of them is a frightening sweeper, while the other two are primarily used as revenge killers. Revenge killers are the way that you get around all of the scary threats, the way you can cover your bases, such that you do stand a chance against the majority of attacking threats and the majority of attacking teams. This reduces the impact of luck on the metagame, so I think that in general revenge killers are healthy for the metagame.
One thing our current list of suspects has is that is that they all have very few good counters. We've come to accept that there will be pokemon with very few counters in OU for some time now, for at least a generation. The key thing to realise is that it is not OK for sweepers to have no counters. Essentially, if a good sweeper beats its counter, then it has a good chance of killing the rest of your team too. If you can't counter something that is not good at sweeping, then you lose a pokemon. This is, of course, a big deal, but unless the pokemon in question finds it easy to do this multiple times, especially if it can switch in, this is not "broken" in and of itself. Lucario, specifically, is a potent sweeper. If it sets up a boost and its counter goes down, it's pretty much toast. You have no option but to counter Lucario somehow, and this is really quite difficult, as many people in this thread have no doubt already shown. Lucarionite deserves to be banned for sure.
However, the other two pokemon are more questionable as suspects. I'll discuss Deoxys-S first, since I'm rather more sure about where it belongs. By and large, Deoxys-S has two sets, the hazard setter and the Life Orb sweeper; I don't think any others are worthy of consideration (perhaps a hybrid of the two, I suppose). I think the Life Orb sweeper set is far and away the better of the two. The hazard setter is not all that much better at its job than its competitors, and the effectiveness of its hazards are more questionable than ever. Yes, I still think SR is the best move in the game, but setting up spikes in addition I'm less convinced by. Setting up SR on its own is almost always a net gain, since it takes as many turns to remove it as it took you to set it up, but if you suicide your hazards setter for SR and a layer of spikes, you've really lost out on a lot if they are removed. I understand that this set would probably be run on a very offensive team, but I don't really believe that you wouldn't be able to find one turn to remove the hazards. If you really can't find a single free turn throughout the entire game, which I find quite hard to believe, does this not speak more of deoxys's teammates than of deoxys itself? Deoxys's whole team would have to be horrifically overpowered. In reality, when I don't defog the hazards away in such a situation, it's not because I couldn't, but because I chose not to. If I had to choose between removing two layers of hazards on my side of the field, and getting a KO, I would quite often choose the KO. I also think spikes are less effective because more flying pokemon are being used, which are immune. As for how effective deo-s is at setting up hazards, I find it less effective than deoxys-d. There is so much priority right now that I think most teams should be able to limit deoxys-s to stealth rock, assuming that it leads. Aegislash, in particular, can deal with deoxys-s quite easily, as can talonflame. If deoxys-s isn't leading, it might well get more, but in that situation I think a deo-d would do even better. Also, if you only want SR, Garchomp and Terrrakion are really great, as they are useful both offensively and defensively, in addition to their support role.
The Life Orb set is, as people have said, reasonably hard to counter. Aegislash, mega mawile, along with a few other steels and some assault vest users are your best bets. But as I said before, having few counters doesn't really make a pokemon overpowered unless it is threatening to sweep your team. Contrary to what people have said, deo-s is not a good cleaner. It has two stat-dropping moves that it relies heavily upon, it very often 2HKOes things rather than OHKOing them, and apart from anything else, it's effectively not fast enough because it usually lacks priority. I've used deo-s alongside priority based cleaners like CB Genesect, Talonflame, Lucario and Pinsir, and I find that these clean far more often than deo-s would, even without setup. What LO deoxys-s provides is great revenge killing, which for me is a good thing, and some mid-game wallbreaking power. It isn't really able to switch in at all, so I don't feel that it is able to come in and kill something enough times to be considered overpowered. edit: I also forgot to mention that the deo-s user often has to guess correctly to get around its would-be counters.
As for genesect, I really don't know. I really appreciate the revenge killing capabilities provided by the scarf and band (espeed) sets, and I do think genesect is quite counterable, excluding U-turn. However, there is just something inherently broken about U-turn; in the typical situation we consider to establish if a pokemon counters another, the genesect team almost always comes out on top. Basically any pokemon with U-turn is uncounterable; all it has to do is be able to switch in, and force something out. Genesect is perhaps the most able to do this of any u-turner we've seen, not to mention that its U-turns actually do substantial damage. Overall though, I don't know. I've had far less trouble with this pokemon than previously. Part of this is because Aegislash is a wonderful switchin. The sweeping sets, which posed a lot of the problem last gen, don't seem to be too common, and I've seen very little trapping used alongside genesect (although I always though the trapping was the side of this worthy of banning). What I see is mostly revenge killers, which as I've said, are a positive influence. Perhaps this is just that people on the ladder haven't worked everything out yet, I don't know. I just don't see too much of a problem at the moment, even if there might be one in the future.
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EDIT:
I'm not necessarily disagreeing here but we should be a little careful.
Ease of access should not be a factor when deciding whether or not a Pokemon should be banned. Given a metagame, there will always be a "good Pokemon" that can simply be slapped onto a team. That's simply unavoidable.
For example, Rotom-Wash this generation is simply god-like because of the amount of support it brings to the table. And trust me, I'm slightly guilty of slapping on a Rotom-Wash variant because I know it's so good it'll work 90% of the time lol
Genesect is an overbearing threat that may need a bit of checking out but the fact that Genesect can be placed onto any team archetype without too much fear isn't a factor of banning in my opinion.
I definitely agree with this, for the most part. Pokemon like Rotom-W are used on most teams because they are often the "glue" that holds everything together, mostly because of its ability to check a huge portion of the metagame and providing very useful utility with Will-O-Wisp, and momentum. Genesect is one of the best offensive Pokemon in OU because of its insane versatility and the ability to check so many Pokemon, thus making it extremely easy to slap onto any team. However, it does get to a point where Pokemon become overcentralizing, and are slapped onto almost every team because there's little point in not using the Pokemon. Genesect seems to be much less centralizing than it was last generation, and despite the fact that it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, some teams just don't neccesarily benefit from it. Being able to put a Pokemon on any kind of team and have it be successful is definitely not enough to consider it broken or unhealthy for the metagame, it's unhealthy when there's practically no reason not to run the Pokemon on basically any team you build, and if you choose not to run it, then you're team is automatically missing out. That's when it usually becomes overcentralizing. Does Genesect fit that bill? Maybe not entirely, but it's hard not to use Genesect on every offensive team I use, simply because it just provides so much support.
honestly I don't find m-luke that bad. I play an offensive team and when I see it I just attack it with a neutral hit. It's very frail and has a lot of common weaknesses. It will take out a pokemon, that much is guaranteed, but for me it usually dies the turn after, and it cant switch into any attack.
I've also found the physical set much harder to deal with than mixed or special set, so maybe my team composition makes it weird.
Genesect is pretty stupid and definitely needs to go.
Deoxys is also dumb and needs to go.
my 2 worthless pennies.
I've also found the physical set much harder to deal with than mixed or special set, so maybe my team composition makes it weird.
Genesect is pretty stupid and definitely needs to go.
Deoxys is also dumb and needs to go.
my 2 worthless pennies.
if mega lucario is gets banned Mega Latios will have no chance to be in OU.
I'm new to this but where and when do I post my reqs and stuff? Just finished on the OU ladder and will continue on the suspect ladder next week.
I think a lot has been said already about the suspects but I'll just go ahead and give my opinion on them after laddering on OU.
Deoxys-S: This guy..High Insane speed, good power and it can take a small hit if needed. In addition a great movepool. It can go Dual Screens, Suicide Hazards or All out attacker, I myself used the all out attacker.
Obviously his speed is his biggest selling point. Personally I believe it is of great use in this meta because it can outspeed scarfed Genesect and OHKO it with a Fire Punch. It also outspeeds MegaLuke and kills it with Superpower. He DOES have great utility and he has a lot of attacking options. But his two strongest moves (Psycho Boost and Superpower) have very big drawbacks. Also it doesn't have much time to do what it wants to do (as a Life Orb attacker). Deo-S can only come in so many times because it isn't the greatest switch in. The fact that priority became more of a staple in OU isn't helping either as he only resists one of the priorities (Mach Punch).
Aside from that I can't deny the simple fact that his speed is so amazing. It has the speed of a scarfer and can switch moves freely, his moves give him great coverage and even pokes that resist Psycho Boost don't like to take it. It can bluff a hazard setter set if you lead with it giving it more unpredictability. It does very well against a lot of common Pokémon in the meta (Genesect, Conkeldurr, MegaLuke, Garchomp, Landorus, MegaVenu). It's insane speed also enable it to come in on Dragon Dances from the likes of CharizardX or MegaTtar and STILL OUTSPEED THEM AND OHKO THEM (well you need a little bit of damage on 'em). This makes Deoxys-S, in my eyes, a top tier pick. But is it banworthy?
Well we have to consider how Defog and Priority are now a big thing in the meta. Mind you I haven't been around for a long time I only started playing in the Keldeo-suspect Era. But Defog being everywhere now does cripple two of his main sets. Sure you can couple it with Bisharp. but is this a problem with Deo-S? You have to consider if you can lay down two layers and then die, and then the hazards get Defogged, sure you have a boosted Bisharp now but Deo-s his job is nullified. It isn't Deo-S' job to get a boost on Bisharp it's hit job to get layers down. and Defog DOES cripple this severely.
The Life Orb set is completely different. There may only be a few surefire counters to this set. Aegislash is one of them as it only takes like 30% from even a Fire Punch. The best thing you can do if you don't have Aegishlash is switch around Deoxys until it used Psycho Boost or something so you can threaten it out. Yes priority users can revenge kill or threaten it out but they do not like to switch in on his moves. Aegislash and Talonflame are probably your best bet if you want to take a hit and threaten it out with priority. It can't really be pursuit trapped because of its access to Superpower.
But then again, it's weak to all kinds of EH damage and doesn't really have a favorably typing. It can usually only come in after something died and then it has like one or two turns to do as much as it can before it dies/switches out. Aegislash being everywhere (ban when) doesn't really help it. Also Life Orb is a must on the attacking set so it wears down really, really quickly.
For now I don't know about Deoxys-S, sure it's kind of threatening once it's out But it doesn't have much switch in chances at all. The hazard set can be annoying but Deoxys-D does that arguably better anyway. And I didn't have a spinner or defog user on my team so two layers were annoying. However I don't feel like it is limiting me in team building or that it has major impact in every game nor does it feel unhealthy for the meta, as the only scarfer is Genesect anyway. For now I'm saying no ban for Deoxys-S.
Holy shit, I said to much already. For anyone who is still here:
Genesect: Oh boy here comes the bias. I HATE THIS BUG I HATE IT FKING BAN IT I HATE HIS EASY ASS U TURNING. There. Ban.
Luca- okay okay. First of all let's look at this thing. It's a fucking bug, a steel bug. That. Typing. Is. Great. Although Genesect can now be effectively Pursuit trapped, or hit with a priority Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch. But those weaknesses are compensated because it can hit fairies with Steel-STAB now (which is great because U-Turn gets resisted by Fairy).
This thing is so good, it gives you instant momentum and it has like 90 sets it can utilize. You could use fucking Body Slam on this thing and it still would be effective because it's fucking Genesect. You can't do anything wrong with Genesect, there are no risks in having Genesect on your team. It can only benefit you. What's that a counter? 'Lol no I wasn't scarfed man sorry' BOOM DEAD. It's fucking annoying to scout if this has a scarf on it or not because all it does is U-turn out anyway. It can be fucking banded it can be EB it can be SG. It Can Be God. There is no #2 or 3 U-turner in this meta because those spots are all filled by Genesect's different sets.
Okay it's great and all but I'll give you this. All his sets are pretty much countered by Fire-types (namely Heatran). My main problem with this is A) Obviously they are SR weak most of the time and B) Heatran switches in on so many Mons it gets worn down very quickly.
It's annoying, but I'm not sure if it's ban worthy to be honest. I think the biggest problem with Genesect is that it gets Download, this makes it from a great Pokémon to an AMAZING Pokémon. Basically you get a free Band or Specs on your Scarf. Well Pory-Z gets Download WE AINT BANNING THAT? But Genesect has an arguably better typing and his stats are perfect for utilizing Download to its fullest potential. 120/120/99 is absolutely crazy with access to U-turn and Download. Also he is deceivingly bulky (71/95/95) and can actually switch in on some attacks pretty easily. Everytime Genesect comes in I crap me freakin' pants, most of the time I'm just hoping it's scarfed or something so I atleast know it's locked in to a fucking move. Teams that are well prepared for scarf variants can be annihilated by his SG set or even CB set. His fourth move is always a mystery as it mostly is: U-Turn/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/x (from my experience). He can fill that up with so many moves like HP Ground/Xspeed/Thunderbolt/Energy Ball/Iron Head really that's maybe to much.
I'm not sure though because I don't know if I just think it's overpowered or if I just think it's freaking annoying. For now I'm leaning towards ban because of how many advantages it has and how no risk this thing is.
Lucarionite: Ban it.
I would only like to say. I've seen some people who would argue that it's difficult to get MegaLuke in his mega. I never really experienced difficulties doing that. Priority helps greatly with this and it can also set up against a lot of common defensive Pokes like Madibuzz and Venusaur. Also switching in on something that has dropped stats (like Latias after a Draco) ensures a set up or Megalution as well.
I think a lot has been said already about the suspects but I'll just go ahead and give my opinion on them after laddering on OU.
Deoxys-S: This guy..
Deoxys-Speed @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 Spd / 210 SAtk / 100 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Superpower
- Fire Punch
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 200 Spd / 210 SAtk / 100 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Superpower
- Fire Punch
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
Obviously his speed is his biggest selling point. Personally I believe it is of great use in this meta because it can outspeed scarfed Genesect and OHKO it with a Fire Punch. It also outspeeds MegaLuke and kills it with Superpower. He DOES have great utility and he has a lot of attacking options. But his two strongest moves (Psycho Boost and Superpower) have very big drawbacks. Also it doesn't have much time to do what it wants to do (as a Life Orb attacker). Deo-S can only come in so many times because it isn't the greatest switch in. The fact that priority became more of a staple in OU isn't helping either as he only resists one of the priorities (Mach Punch).
Aside from that I can't deny the simple fact that his speed is so amazing. It has the speed of a scarfer and can switch moves freely, his moves give him great coverage and even pokes that resist Psycho Boost don't like to take it. It can bluff a hazard setter set if you lead with it giving it more unpredictability. It does very well against a lot of common Pokémon in the meta (Genesect, Conkeldurr, MegaLuke, Garchomp, Landorus, MegaVenu). It's insane speed also enable it to come in on Dragon Dances from the likes of CharizardX or MegaTtar and STILL OUTSPEED THEM AND OHKO THEM (well you need a little bit of damage on 'em). This makes Deoxys-S, in my eyes, a top tier pick. But is it banworthy?
Well we have to consider how Defog and Priority are now a big thing in the meta. Mind you I haven't been around for a long time I only started playing in the Keldeo-suspect Era. But Defog being everywhere now does cripple two of his main sets. Sure you can couple it with Bisharp. but is this a problem with Deo-S? You have to consider if you can lay down two layers and then die, and then the hazards get Defogged, sure you have a boosted Bisharp now but Deo-s his job is nullified. It isn't Deo-S' job to get a boost on Bisharp it's hit job to get layers down. and Defog DOES cripple this severely.
The Life Orb set is completely different. There may only be a few surefire counters to this set. Aegislash is one of them as it only takes like 30% from even a Fire Punch. The best thing you can do if you don't have Aegishlash is switch around Deoxys until it used Psycho Boost or something so you can threaten it out. Yes priority users can revenge kill or threaten it out but they do not like to switch in on his moves. Aegislash and Talonflame are probably your best bet if you want to take a hit and threaten it out with priority. It can't really be pursuit trapped because of its access to Superpower.
But then again, it's weak to all kinds of EH damage and doesn't really have a favorably typing. It can usually only come in after something died and then it has like one or two turns to do as much as it can before it dies/switches out. Aegislash being everywhere (ban when) doesn't really help it. Also Life Orb is a must on the attacking set so it wears down really, really quickly.
For now I don't know about Deoxys-S, sure it's kind of threatening once it's out But it doesn't have much switch in chances at all. The hazard set can be annoying but Deoxys-D does that arguably better anyway. And I didn't have a spinner or defog user on my team so two layers were annoying. However I don't feel like it is limiting me in team building or that it has major impact in every game nor does it feel unhealthy for the meta, as the only scarfer is Genesect anyway. For now I'm saying no ban for Deoxys-S.
Holy shit, I said to much already. For anyone who is still here:
Genesect: Oh boy here comes the bias. I HATE THIS BUG I HATE IT FKING BAN IT I HATE HIS EASY ASS U TURNING. There. Ban.
Luca- okay okay. First of all let's look at this thing. It's a fucking bug, a steel bug. That. Typing. Is. Great. Although Genesect can now be effectively Pursuit trapped, or hit with a priority Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch. But those weaknesses are compensated because it can hit fairies with Steel-STAB now (which is great because U-Turn gets resisted by Fairy).
This thing is so good, it gives you instant momentum and it has like 90 sets it can utilize. You could use fucking Body Slam on this thing and it still would be effective because it's fucking Genesect. You can't do anything wrong with Genesect, there are no risks in having Genesect on your team. It can only benefit you. What's that a counter? 'Lol no I wasn't scarfed man sorry' BOOM DEAD. It's fucking annoying to scout if this has a scarf on it or not because all it does is U-turn out anyway. It can be fucking banded it can be EB it can be SG. It Can Be God. There is no #2 or 3 U-turner in this meta because those spots are all filled by Genesect's different sets.
Okay it's great and all but I'll give you this. All his sets are pretty much countered by Fire-types (namely Heatran). My main problem with this is A) Obviously they are SR weak most of the time and B) Heatran switches in on so many Mons it gets worn down very quickly.
It's annoying, but I'm not sure if it's ban worthy to be honest. I think the biggest problem with Genesect is that it gets Download, this makes it from a great Pokémon to an AMAZING Pokémon. Basically you get a free Band or Specs on your Scarf. Well Pory-Z gets Download WE AINT BANNING THAT? But Genesect has an arguably better typing and his stats are perfect for utilizing Download to its fullest potential. 120/120/99 is absolutely crazy with access to U-turn and Download. Also he is deceivingly bulky (71/95/95) and can actually switch in on some attacks pretty easily. Everytime Genesect comes in I crap me freakin' pants, most of the time I'm just hoping it's scarfed or something so I atleast know it's locked in to a fucking move. Teams that are well prepared for scarf variants can be annihilated by his SG set or even CB set. His fourth move is always a mystery as it mostly is: U-Turn/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/x (from my experience). He can fill that up with so many moves like HP Ground/Xspeed/Thunderbolt/Energy Ball/Iron Head really that's maybe to much.
I'm not sure though because I don't know if I just think it's overpowered or if I just think it's freaking annoying. For now I'm leaning towards ban because of how many advantages it has and how no risk this thing is.
Lucarionite: Ban it.
I would only like to say. I've seen some people who would argue that it's difficult to get MegaLuke in his mega. I never really experienced difficulties doing that. Priority helps greatly with this and it can also set up against a lot of common defensive Pokes like Madibuzz and Venusaur. Also switching in on something that has dropped stats (like Latias after a Draco) ensures a set up or Megalution as well.
The set I've been using:
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave
- Aura Sphere
- Flash Cannon
I would like to point out that if your team is having trouble dealing with U-Turns from Genesect and being able to switch in, you should really rethink your teambuilding. We don't ban things because they are difficult to switch into, otherwise we would have banned CB Terrakion in BW/2
If they lead genesect turn one and you can't figure out what set it is after that, I'm sorry but your skill is in question. Learn Item and Ability priority, learn switch priority, use calculators, and most importantly learn to pick a proper lead.
Bug is SE vs a grand total of 3 types, and of those 3 almsot all of them are commonly paired with subtypings that cause bug to be neutral. Lets be serious here, Unless it is banded genesect (which is in a trolled speed tier), U-turn really doesn't do all that much damage without investment. Finding pokemon that can switch into genesect isn't as hard as you make it, especially vs the choiced sets. Would you ban SF conkeldurr because he Ice punched your gliscor on a switchin when you had rotom-w out? Doubt it. U-turning for momentum had disadvantages as well, since you can rack up hazard damage quite quickly without getting much back, especially if you keep bringing it out only to U-turn on something like chansey or heatran.
With proper EV/IV allocation on even defence Mons, you can ruin genesects day and make it awful. This isn't overcentralisastion, its called being smart. Putting that 4SpDef EVs on Aegislash isn't going to kill you. Plenty of things can switch in on genesects best set (phys scarf), not limited to: heatran, conkeldurr, rotom-h, rotom-w, chansey, talonflame, volcarona, jellicent, tentacruel, chandy blah blah...
TL;DR Genesect is healthy for the meta, learn to stop playing on autopilot and become a better teambuilder.
Quit Crying about something because its annoying. Otherwise ban Swagplay Klefki and Subtox Gliscor, please.
If they lead genesect turn one and you can't figure out what set it is after that, I'm sorry but your skill is in question. Learn Item and Ability priority, learn switch priority, use calculators, and most importantly learn to pick a proper lead.
Bug is SE vs a grand total of 3 types, and of those 3 almsot all of them are commonly paired with subtypings that cause bug to be neutral. Lets be serious here, Unless it is banded genesect (which is in a trolled speed tier), U-turn really doesn't do all that much damage without investment. Finding pokemon that can switch into genesect isn't as hard as you make it, especially vs the choiced sets. Would you ban SF conkeldurr because he Ice punched your gliscor on a switchin when you had rotom-w out? Doubt it. U-turning for momentum had disadvantages as well, since you can rack up hazard damage quite quickly without getting much back, especially if you keep bringing it out only to U-turn on something like chansey or heatran.
With proper EV/IV allocation on even defence Mons, you can ruin genesects day and make it awful. This isn't overcentralisastion, its called being smart. Putting that 4SpDef EVs on Aegislash isn't going to kill you. Plenty of things can switch in on genesects best set (phys scarf), not limited to: heatran, conkeldurr, rotom-h, rotom-w, chansey, talonflame, volcarona, jellicent, tentacruel, chandy blah blah...
TL;DR Genesect is healthy for the meta, learn to stop playing on autopilot and become a better teambuilder.
Quit Crying about something because its annoying. Otherwise ban Swagplay Klefki and Subtox Gliscor, please.
Well to be fair its not like every genesect is scarf, id say it works well but ive also seen shift gear genesect and giving that a free turn of setup can be gg. I'd say the majority of genesect are predictable but when everyone uses scarf genesect it doesnt mean its bad, it just means its overused.
I'm sorry if you misunderstood, annoyance is no reason for something to be banned. That is also not the reason why I think it should be banned. I don't have problems with U-turn but in case you forgot he also has 3 other moves he can use. It's different than Scizor because it can threaten out so many more Pokémon, because it has acces to so much more moves both special and physical. I'm not saying it's not counter able, as this isn't a valid reason to ban something to Ubers aswell.
On your opinion on CB and other sets, well that is your opinion. I think they can be pretty effective and I find that people that are ranked higher use much more than only the scarf set making every game a guessing game for me. Dunno about you but I certainly can't find out if Gene is Ebelt if it U-Turns on me first turn. It could also be it has max atk investment and bluffing a Band w/e. But it can also be my inexperience, I'll give you that.
As for the EV/IV distribution, I agree with you there. It's also something I've learned in the last few weeks and have been using to give Gene the wrong boosts. I wouldn't call 4EVs more in a certain stat centralizing.
On the Genesect/Terrakion analogy: I don't think you can really comapre these two at all. Terrakion was just hard to switch into, Genesect is not only hard to switch into, but it can scout out of its counters with U-Turn. On top of that, Terrakion was one-dimensional as fuck and its best way to deal with common counters like Lando-T was a pitifully weak HP Ice. Genesect can actually deal with its counters reliably thanks to its mixed attacking stats, so it's not just a matter of being hard to switch into, but also one of being unpredictable, meaning that it has more factors that make it bannable.
On figuring out what set it is: How exactly are you so sure about what set Genesect is running after one turn? Yeah sure, the damage output of that U-Turn might make you believe that it's a specially based scarf set, but why wouldn't it be an Ebelt lure? With its exceptional coverage there are barely any Pokemon that can easily switch into it outside of Heatran, so luring Heatran in and destroying him is ez.
On U-Turn: Do you even realize what this does? Even if you switch your Heatran in on that U-Turn, you're still put at a disadvantage because now your Heatran is up against a Garchomp/Excadrill/Conkeldurr/you name it. U-Turn's risk, namely that of racking up hazard damage, is actually way lower than the reward, namely that of putting yourself in a favorable position AND possibly hurting your opponent a lot. I don't care that your Heatran doesn't care about my U-Turn, because now my Garchomp can get a free Sub/SD. On top of that, Spikestacking isn't that good in OU as of now and Defog is around, so usually Genesect won't be taking much more than SR damage, and does he care? No, because Genesect isn't supposed to tank hits, it's supposed to kill shit and create momentum, it can switch in often enough to succeed in what it does because it's not weak to rocks anyway.
The EV thing, I agree on, but that's not really our primary concern, as even when you cleverly EV your mons, you're still facing a momentum machine with perfect coverage, lots of power and a ton of potential sets.
I think I'm going to bring an opposite point of view and say that I believe that U-turn really is at the core of why Genesect is being suspected right now. If we look at Genesect from a purely offensive point of view, I don't really believe it's that strong. Ofc, 120/120 stats hurt, but u can usually predict what Gene does, given it is almost always Choiced. Where Genesect really excels is teamsupport, like it has been previously mentioned. Not taking into account the odd Shift Gear set, would you ever run Genesect without U-turn? It happens to be the only move that's non-negotiable on Gene. It's not because it hits hard, but because in addition to its offenses, it provides unique teamsupport. A vague quote from somewhere previously in this thread, "Gensect can basically pick its fights". In addition to that crazy teamsupport, it can bring in a wide array of offensive options, but offensive capabilities are not really the reason why Gene is suspected. Like Gary2346 a few posts back, it's hard not to take Genesect to a team, since it just works so well as a offensive supporter.
I'm not really giving an opinion now whether Gene should be banned or not, but the discussion seemed to purely be about Genesect's offensive qualities, when in fact, the teamsupport is at the core of why Gene is being suspected. Rather than comparing Genesect on Pokemon that hit hard, I'd rather look at it from the perspective of team support. It's not impossible to ban Pokemon just because their team supporting capabilities, I believe that's pretty much the reason why MGengar was banned. Okey, I don't mean that Genesect can be compared to the team support MGengar can give, but I'd rather look at Genesect in the category of team support when thinking whether or not it's banworthy.
I'm not really giving an opinion now whether Gene should be banned or not, but the discussion seemed to purely be about Genesect's offensive qualities, when in fact, the teamsupport is at the core of why Gene is being suspected. Rather than comparing Genesect on Pokemon that hit hard, I'd rather look at it from the perspective of team support. It's not impossible to ban Pokemon just because their team supporting capabilities, I believe that's pretty much the reason why MGengar was banned. Okey, I don't mean that Genesect can be compared to the team support MGengar can give, but I'd rather look at Genesect in the category of team support when thinking whether or not it's banworthy.
Furthermore, with the EV thing, other sets can take advantage of that to a degree. Gave me an attack boost to beat off Flamethrower? LOL I actually have Shift Gear and your team is now swept with a +2/+2 Genesect. A Special boost so your bug weak isn't hit by a boosted U-Turn? I suppose I'll just mow through your team with a boosted Bug Buzz now, etc etc.
I've tried out Genesect a little, and I've never used a Pokemon which made me feel as much control over the entire battle as it did. I use the standard Special Scarf set with U-Turn, and in most battles, I basically spam U-Turn, whittling down the opposing Pokemon little by little, keeping hazards down with Excadrill and Tentacruel. Once I feel able to 2HKO the rest of the team with either Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or Flash Cannon, I lock myself into one of these moves and the match often ends there. Genesect works particularly well with Rotom-W, which I think has already been mentioned but really should be emphasized.
Timpsu pretty much nailed it when he said that U-Turn is the real reason Genesect is so good. Without it, you could run a fully special set, but it would be very easy to counter by resisting the move Genesect locks itself in, or outspeeding it if it isn't Scarfed (Base 99 Speed is pretty low for a sweeper, all things considered). You could also run a banded or even Shift Gear set, but Heatran and most bulky Waters laugh at those. It would be good, but not ban-worthy. But U-Turn makes it impossible to touch until it's too late and nothing on your team can take two Download-boosted Flamethrowers. That one move is what really pushes Genesect into being banworthy, at least for me.
Timpsu pretty much nailed it when he said that U-Turn is the real reason Genesect is so good. Without it, you could run a fully special set, but it would be very easy to counter by resisting the move Genesect locks itself in, or outspeeding it if it isn't Scarfed (Base 99 Speed is pretty low for a sweeper, all things considered). You could also run a banded or even Shift Gear set, but Heatran and most bulky Waters laugh at those. It would be good, but not ban-worthy. But U-Turn makes it impossible to touch until it's too late and nothing on your team can take two Download-boosted Flamethrowers. That one move is what really pushes Genesect into being banworthy, at least for me.
+2 and LO isn't as threatening as you make it out to be. Heatran will forever wall it, it has to predict around Aegislash to even have a chance of killing it. Steel/Normal/Fire coverage is extremely awful, and with +2 LO only does a grant total of 57% with a max roll to Rotom-W with E-Speed.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 147-174 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Not to mention the SG set is easy to spot since they will never bring it in to U-turn until your check/counter to SG Genesect is dead. Even then, blaze kick sucks and Flamethrower is the superior option to run. Don't believe me?
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 263-309 (78.7 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
0 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 265-312 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This is kind of reminding me of the Deoxys-S discussion, where we basically dropped the hazard set and focused on whether the offensive set was OP or not. I agree that in any Genesect discussion U-Turn should be the absolute primary focus, because it is what makes Genesect so good. If any other revenge killer comes in, all you have to do if you want to save your sweeper is switch to the appropriate counter. But even if you're packing a Genesect counter - say, Heatran or AV Entei - you have to think twice about switching it in because Genesect could just as easily U-Turn out and leave you in a terrible position. I don't think that's broken - everything with U-Turn can arguably do that. But that ability to ignore its counters, combined with excellent offenses and coverage and the threat of about 20 different sets, would be what makes it broken IF it is broken.
Now, I don't think Genesect is broken. It's the best scarfer in OU, but the scarf set is probably not the best revenge killer (that's Talonflame or Deo-S). None of its other sets can really be said to be the best at what they do (except for CB, because nothing else does anything similar). The fact that it's so easy to stick on an offensive team is NOT something that makes it broken. There are many things that will improve practically any team they are added to, and most of them are far from broken. While it can fit on a lot of teams and be threatening, it's not threatening enough that it limits teambuilding or is unhealthy for the OU metagame.
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