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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Id recommend you to try it out urself.. u will be suprised.
The only thing that resists his stab are grass, water and dragon types. With EQ and Icefang u hit everything that resists his stab at least neutral. With just 2 moves it depends. With Waterfall + EQ pure grass types (celebi) and flying dragon (dragonite) types can be a problem thats why i am using return as a second move, with that i hit everything relevant exept for ferrothorn for neutral dmg (Jellicent, Trev and Ghorgeist are also an issue but there are so few of them around that it hardly even matters). Waterfall + Icefang would also be an option but then u miss out on watertanks, since there arent that many watertanks around i guess thats fine as well even though rotom-w will be a major problem with that set.
Other options are Stone Edge, Bounce or Bite, u can realy choose ur counters here and with 3 moves there is nothing u dont hit for lots of dmg, however without taunt ur vulnerable to phazers. As mentioned, with just 3 slots u cant cover every possible counter but everything has its counters, even mega Lucario, and just like against lucario u cant counter gyara safely until u know his full set. Switching in ur skarm to phaze just to get taunted can realy ruin ur day...
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Unless you're saying he'll just be OHKOed by a Shadow Ball, Aegislash can be Coated.
Aegislash can't even be Shadow Tagged, Wobuffet has not reason to stay in.
Photofluid said:
This is the case for Megazard Y. Its substantial strengths are being a freaking scary wallbreaker (raw power and coverage-wise) with sizable special bulk, a mitigated Water weakness thanks to sun as well as sun-boosted Fire Blasts, and being literally impossible to switch into for any offensive team. It is weak to SR (and thus Rock), Electric, and Water (kinda ?_?). It also fucks up every single Water- and Electric-type in OU, including the omnipresent Rotom-W. Maybe not 1v1, but they can't switch in at all. Defog or spin support isn't too hard to come by, either, so that's not the worst thing in the world. Megazard Y's traits make up for it, believe me.
There is something I don't understand. I posted a question, page 117, to know why Starmie was under TENTACRUEL, as both are (to my mind) only good in spinnig, and I thought that Starmie was better than Tenta. Many peolpe answered to me, however, noone mentioned a single time the competition between STARMIE and TENTA, only focusing on Excadrill, or M-Blastoise. So, i ask my question one more time : why is Tenta B while Starmie is B- ???
Where's Donphan at? And Mega-Ampharos? They deserve to be C rank at least, especially Mega-Ampharos for it's incredible ability to pivot.
I agree with this.
Starmie has pretty good offensive presence with Analytic and 115 is a hot speed tier.
I run mine with Rapid Spin but only use it when I need to for a clutch. Analytic Psyshock OHKO's Blissey from experience but they could have had stupid spreads.
Tentacruel is the few viable special wall in the meta especially after elec receives much less usage. It also has two very spammable move named scald and knock off, and a speed to outspeed many things. The new fairies in the meta also favors it. On the other hand Starmie faces competition from Blastoise and Excadrill, and really misses Thunder/Hydro pump spam in the rain, which was what make up for its sub par special attack.
Starmie's offensive capabilities are not sub par, no matter how you spin it. High BP, potentially (probably if you play your cards right) Analytic-boosted, attacks with great coverage certainly make up for it. Starmie is not weak.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Analytic LO Starmie is roughly as powerful as Specs Keldeo on the switch (don't read too much into the Tyranitar example). This is hardly 'sub par special offense', as Specs Keldeo is among the more powerful Pokemon in the tier. True, Starmie competes with Blastoise and Excadrill, but it's faster and has better coverage. It's frailer and thus has less switch-in opportunities, which are flaws, but Starmie is still a good choice in OU.
Where is Smeargle and why on earth is Galvantula mentioned over it? Smeargle provides Rocks, Webs, and FUCKING SLEEP (and kamikaze's better too with Explosion as it prevents not only defogs but SPINS too). If Galvantula is B-, shouldn't Smeargle be B+?
I mean, Smeargle isn't even listed! Honchkrow gets a mention and wtf so does Whismicott and Wheezing but not one of the ONLY users of Sticky Web right now in Smeargle? What? WHAT!
And shouldn't Quagsire be the same ranking as Clefable? They perform similar roles with only their types really differentiating them (Clefable does better vs. Manaphy while Quagsire does better against Bisharp, etc.). Mind you, Clefable outclasses it SLIGHTLY, but Quagsire is like a letter an a half rank down like srsly wtf is up with that?
Also, how in God's name does Landorus get ranked over Keldeo and MEGA TYRANITAR. I mean Mega-TTar is quite amazing right now. I think Landorus-I needs to drop a rank it's Uturn is good and all but its weak to Gene's Espeed and Talon's BB as well as being beaten by M-Pinsir and Manaphy and Thundurus-I and Keldeo and it just really doesn't deserve that position ABOVE things like Keldeo itself or MEGA FANTASTIC TYRANITAR and other, more worthy Pokemon imo.
Also, what the fuck, Vaporeon gets ranked OVER Empoleon. Please, someone explain this to me. Empleon gets DEFOG and it walls *most* GENESECT SETS for crying out loud! Empoleon should be B+ in all honesty it does its job rather well. I hope other people who have been using Empoleon back me up on this. Vaporeon is so lackluster in comparison. Sure, it gets Heal Bell and Wish and I guess Baton Pass (but who counts that as BP should just be chucked out of all discussion since the only time BP Vaporeon is viable is on full BP teams so yeah...). Also, why are we even mentioning things like Wheezing in an OU viability thread? Doesn't mentioning it encourage it's use? I mean, Wheezing isn't BAD but this system is built for NEWER players to use, right? So why are we mentioning something they could probably never properly build with? (This is just one Pokemon of the many like WOW WHISMICOTT HELLO and OHMYLORD DUGTRIO, which by the way, CAN'T TRAP AEGISLASH (screw you Nintendo, giving ghosts immunity to trapping) so what's the point? Better off using Keldeo or Terrakion or whatever for Heatran or even HP Ground Gene over Dugtrio it's just not worth it).
I'd say more but I have homework to do. Hope some of what I said gets taken seriously.
EDIT: Yeah but Empoleon gets DEFOG. Which is something Vaporeon CANNOT do, and it gets steel-typing, which is just wonderful because fuck Genesect. Honestly, Empoleon is such a reliable Defogger (more reliable than B+ Zapdos srsly) so it needs a boost imo.
Landorus struggles against top threats. While Landorus is threatening to stall, there is little it's doing to offense and bulky offense imo, so IDK why it's ranked so high.
I mean, Smeargle isn't even listed! Honchkrow gets a mention and wtf so does Whismicott and Wheezing but not one of the ONLY users of Sticky Web right now in Smeargle? What? WHAT!
And shouldn't Quagsire be the same ranking as Clefable? They perform similar roles with only their types really differentiating them (Clefable does better vs. Manaphy while Quagsire does better against Bisharp, etc.). Mind you, Clefable outclasses it SLIGHTLY, but Quagsire is like a letter an a half rank down like srsly wtf is up with that?
Also, how in God's name does Landorus get ranked over Keldeo and MEGA TYRANITAR. I mean Mega-TTar is quite amazing right now. I think Landorus-I needs to drop a rank it's Uturn is good and all but its weak to Gene's Espeed and Talon's BB as well as being beaten by M-Pinsir and Manaphy and Thundurus-I and Keldeo and it just really doesn't deserve that position ABOVE things like Keldeo itself or MEGA FANTASTIC TYRANITAR and other, more worthy Pokemon imo.
Also, what the fuck, Vaporeon gets ranked OVER Empoleon. Please, someone explain this to me. Empleon gets DEFOG and it walls *most* GENESECT SETS for crying out loud! Empoleon should be B+ in all honesty it does its job rather well. I hope other people who have been using Empoleon back me up on this. Vaporeon is so lackluster in comparison. Sure, it gets Heal Bell and Wish and I guess Baton Pass (but who counts that as BP should just be chucked out of all discussion since the only time BP Vaporeon is viable is on full BP teams so yeah...). Also, why are we even mentioning things like Wheezing in an OU viability thread? Doesn't mentioning it encourage it's use? I mean, Wheezing isn't BAD but this system is built for NEWER players to use, right? So why are we mentioning something they could probably never properly build with? (This is just one Pokemon of the many like WOW WHISMICOTT HELLO and OHMYLORD DUGTRIO, which by the way, CAN'T TRAP AEGISLASH (screw you Nintendo, giving ghosts immunity to trapping) so what's the point? Better off using Keldeo or Terrakion or whatever for Heatran or even HP Ground Gene over Dugtrio it's just not worth it).
I'd say more but I have homework to do. Hope some of what I said gets taken seriously.
EDIT: Yeah but Empoleon gets DEFOG. Which is something Vaporeon CANNOT do, and it gets steel-typing, which is just wonderful because fuck Genesect. Honestly, Empoleon is such a reliable Defogger (more reliable than B+ Zapdos srsly) so it needs a boost imo.
Landorus struggles against top threats. While Landorus is threatening to stall, there is little it's doing to offense and bulky offense imo, so IDK why it's ranked so high.
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Lets see if I. An answer this.
Smeargle is not listed as it is one of the many Pokemon that have been nominated but forgotten due to arguments over other pokes (Metagross had responses but was just forgotten to be updated and Haxorus during the Salamence discussions are two examples I recall).
Quagsire vs Clefable debate is mainly due to a few idiots posting bout one set solves all on Quagsire (Curse set was the one in question which isn't nearly as effective as the Stockpile/Scald/Toxic/Recover one I run) and getting him blacklisted. That is one factor, but it might be mainly just its superior boosting in Cosmic Power and Charge Beam vs Quag's Stockpile and Curse.
Idk bout Lando. He is one silly bugger who may be there based on past success.
Vaporeon can function outside of walling, such as a cleric and baton passer but what mainly dofferentiates it from Empoleon is access to a reliable form of recovery (No roost.....why?!)
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I nominated it. ;_;
.....akward......
Okay, I'll rephrase. its on the list of many Pokemon that have not been added to said list (Crobat, Metagross).
Again, sorry bout that. Oversight here on my part. XD
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It's been mentioned before (I think), but now that Politoed is ranked I'd like to bring up Ninetales to be ranked along with it. I find Sun to be anti-meta right now, with few high-caliber pokemon able to withstand several sun-boosted Fire attacks. There are a lot of pokemon that can do amazingly under the sun like Mega-Charizard X, Mega-Charizard Y, Venusaur, Mega-Venusaur, Latias, Heatran, Victini, Volcarona, Talonflame, etc and it can actually a pretty effective playstyle. Since Politoed is A-, I wouldn't rank any higher than B+ for Ninetales, but what does everyone think of Sun right now?
I think Ninetales as a sun setter is not worth it. Drought is just not worth it when it's on Ninetales; you might as well just use Sunny Day Arcanine or something: at least that gets CC for Tyranitar and it beats Genesect more reliably (it gets Flash Fire and Intimidate too, two great abilities). There are other Sunny Day users I'm sure can use if you want to be anti (and using a "Sunny Day" user would be less of a giveaway than using Ninetales). Or you could just use Zard-Y, but many sun teams struggle with the SR weakness it has combined with the sun only staying up for five turns when it sets it up so I can see why you'd want Ninetales but it's just really a bad Pokemon, and with the Drought nerf it really shouldn't be used anymore.
Smeargle is just bad. It's completely stopped by taunt, it's absolute set-up bait, it's slow, it has no offensive presence, it can't do anything except lay down hazards and die (or do some weird Destiny Room set if you're into that stuff.) One defog or Rapid Spin later and you're pretty much 5-6 right off the bat. And it loses to pretty much every other common lead.
Galvantula has 97 SpA and Compound Eyes Thunder, and its STABs allow it to stop common defoggers like Mandibuzz and Latias. It's useful beyond using Sticky Web.
It has spore, yes, but if your opponent has any grass type or Mandibuzz it's unlikely to even sleep anything. There's Dark Void but that has its own problem. It also has Stealth Rock, but tons of other viable Pokemon also get Stealth Rock, and it doesn't NEED to be used on turn 1.
There's also the issue of Sticky Web not being all that great.
Most genesects have Thunder Bolt. Also, Vaporeon has Wish.
You aren't using Smeargle right.
The ability to put things to sleep provides some offensive pressure, and you're underselling the fact that it also gets SR. Mandibuzz and Zapdos and slow Defogers can't set up a Defog when Smeargle explodes, so clearly you've been facing incompetent players who use it or you've never used the good Smeargle set itself. Explosion is offensive enough to stop set up and Substitute and Defogs and Rapid Spins. Thanks to Sticky Web, you can Explode on every spinner in the game and they can't spin back.
GALVANTULA CAN'T DO SHIT TO EXCADRILL. (I say this in all caps because this is quite important...)
(Also, did I mention that Mandibuzz is completely screwed by Explosion? Cuz you act like "Oh, it's absorbing Spore so it beats Smeargle!!!" which is not true when a competent player uses it. Smeargle can also run Taunt to stop Mandibuzz too, but then you can't stop spinners or faster set up, but still Mandibuzz does not beat it; although so little users use Smeargle that most of them are shitty and run something retarded like Spikes.)
Galvantula doesn't stop Latias. Latias OUTSPEEDS GALVANTULA, which means it can Defog on it. Latias also KOs with Draco Meteor, is unaffected by Sticky Web, and Bug Buzz doesn't even OHKO (and yet you say Galvantula can stop Latias. What the fuck?).
Smeargle's sleep threat is more threatening to Latias than weak-as-fucking-hell Bug Buzz since, if you set up hazards and have 1 HP left, and they go into Latias, you can threaten with Spore if they dare Defog, forcing them to KO Smeargle and give the Smeargle user the momentum.
Smeargle gets Dark Void too, and there are so few grass-types anyway. You also completely ignore the fact that it doesn't matter if grass types are immuned to spore or if Dark Void can miss, because you use this to argue what I said earlier, that it HAS THE ABILITY TO SLEEP THINGS. Putting things to sleep is very very good since you put one mon out of commission, and for HO that's simply splendid. It doesn't matter that like 3 grass OUs can switch into it or that DVoid can sometimes miss
(HO teams run Focus Blast so who cars about a move thats pretty much more accurate than FB? It's like running HPump; it's not that bad.)
The beauty of SR on Smeargle is that you don't have to put SR on another slot, which is great for HEAVY OFFENSIVE TEAMS, which Sticky Web is geared towards.
Most Genesects do not have Thunderbolt unless they are Scarf, and if they are +0 they can't even 2HKO max SpD Empoleon after Protect while Scald 2HKOs them. Empoleon shines on Bulky Offense, not all out Stall like Vaporeon does Empoleon has steel-typing and isn't obliterated by the Lati@s twins. It ALSO GETS DEFOG, like this is a really important fact,so much that I'm putting in ALL CAPS. It also beats ALL NON-TBOLT GENESECT, which is like 8/9 of all of its usable sets in OU, which means there is a very good chance you wall the hell out of Genesect. Also, it's obvious you've never used Empoleon so shut up about it OK? Use Empoleon and you'll understand what I'm saying.
I'm sad to say that you are speaking like someone who has never used Smeargle in their life (or, at least, Explosion Smeargle, which is the ONLY Smeargle next to maybe Magic Coat or Taunt, but even then you're better off with Explosion...). I have used both Galvantula and Smeargle. Smeargle is just better because it can offer more as a suicide lead than Galvantula in terms of HO and threatens more Defoggers and EXCADRIL, which is something GALVANTULA CAN'T BOAST.
Side Note: Galvantula is also stopped by Taunt. So that point is FANTASTICALLY moot, especially considering the most common user of Taunt is FUCKING THUNDURUS-I, which beats BOTH of them. Think before you speak my God.
Too Long To Read?: Put Smeargle in B+, or at least mention it. Seriously, if Galvantula is mentioned you can't NOT mention Smearlge. Also, I refute some points made against Smeargle. Not that I had to try hard, the arguments made were pretty inane.
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Eh, Ninetales is bad. There's no denying that. Still 73/75/100 bulk, when invested in is barely enough to switch in a couple times and get sun up which means Ninetales can do it's job. Barely. I haven't tried Sun without Ninetales, but the benefit of Ninetales Drought is that it takes only 1 turn to get sun up, while other Heat Rock users typically need 2 turns to get sun up; the switch (unless coming in off a KO) and the Sunny Day. That means while getting sun up, the setter has to take 1-2 hits each time, and considering how hard hitting the metagame is right now that's easier said than done.
This is a good point, but I wouldn't put it next to Politoed since Politoed is a more reliable setter of its weather than Ninetales is. Still, maybe C+ mentioning.
Stop it with the personal attacks, we're all supposed to pretend we're mature here.
Several fallacies:
Galvantula can't beat Latias 1v1 but Latias can't switch in because it's weak to Bug Buzz. HO would also be likely to use Galva because it has some offensive presence and is fairly fast. Thundurus also doesn't want to switch in on a Thunder, lead with him and Galva will just Volt Switch out on the Taunt. This is if Thundy even has Taunt, many run Thunder Wave instead.
The beauty of smeargle being that you don't have to use something else for it? Why on earth use Smeargle on HO when you have Deoxys-S, Landorus-T, Garchomp... I'd personally have 6 members with one having SR than 5 members and one completely dedicated to SR that completely falls flat on it's face if the opponent leads with a faster Taunter. Sticky Web is nice but on HO you should be using lots of priority/have high speed mons anyway, so Web isn't going to help much. Explosion Smeargle? Give me a break, Smeargle can't do anything to Mandibuzz- or anything else- even with Explosion:
0 Atk Smeargle Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 84-99 (19.8 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Smeargle Explosion vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mandibuzz: 153-180 (36 - 42.4%) -- 93.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Smeargle Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 66-78 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Smeargle Explosion vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 120-141 (33.1 - 38.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
Explosion Smeargle, Ladies and Gentlemen. A new revolution in damage dealing. Seriously, completely screwed by Explosion? Not that Smeargle will ever get off an Explosion on Excadrill, Exca outspeeds and kills with EQ+Rapid Spin. Spore is literally the only reason to use Smeargle over any hazard lead, none of this Explosion BS.
Most Genesect are Scarf. Most Genesect run Thunderbolt, it's amazing coverage- in fact, the only sets that wouldn't run it are the purely physical sets. Pengu barely avoiding the 2HKO from a +0 Genesect is not particularly impressive if it's Max SpDef Empoleon- 252/0 Vaporeon is a 3HKO as well, and it has reliable recovery to boot.
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 194-230 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
How on earth you could claim that Empoleon walls "Most" Genesect when it needs Gene to not have +1SpAtk and it still loses almost half it's health anyway to one of Genesect's most popular moves... it's beyond me.
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*sigh*
I mean that aegislash can just repeatedly shadow sneak, and counter doesn't affect ghost types. You also aren't trapped.
EDIT: Regarding empoleon, i've used him because I noticed he can use both defog and SR and has a really cool typing, but the main issue with him is that he is worn down super quick. He can take a hit or two, he provides a one-time counter to many things, but he gets worn down in this meta so quick its not even funny (A good partner would be a sylveon who can keep this guy healthy and has decent synergy with him) All the rotom-w's running around isn't really making empoleon's job easier.
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Thanks for missing the entire point. My responses are in the quote, in bold. I don't have any fallacies; you do.
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Explosion isn't for dealing damage, it's for preventing Defog against slower opponents.
Ex: You blow up, and Mandibuzz uses Defog... "But there was no target!" so the Defog fails. You then get a free switch-in and your hazards remain intact.
Anyway with all that said, I think you're laying it on a bit heavy Shurtugal. Smeargle absolutely deserves to be ranked alongside Galvantula but there are plenty of worthy pokes that aren't listed yet either.
I agree that Empoleon deserves a boost in ranking as well. My favorite set (Defog / SR / Roar / Scald) packs tons of utility and isn't setup fodder for anything, thanks to both Roar and Scald for spreading Burns and racking up residual damage. One of the best things about Empoleon is that it's a Defog user that resists SR itself, and can also set up your own SR after removing the opponent's hazards, much like Skarm. It also has a great defensive typing, but it's stuck with no reliable recovery and a few common weaknesses, so it gets worn down quickly. However I still believe it's worthy of B- at least.
... The most common set is Scarf. If Pengu can't wall Genesect's most popular set- the one you see almost constantly- then it can't wall Genesect. Seriously, come on, you accuse others of never using things and have no idea what's common? That statement that it walls every set but Scarf is false, more like Pengu can't wall any Genesect that is using special attacks- the Expert Belt set comes to mind as another Special Genesect. If genesect is at +1 Thunderbolt 2HKO's, so you can't reliably switch in to pull off the defog.
You're also overselling Sticky Web, to a huge degree. Many OU mons either don't care about Web or aren't effected, using a pokemon simply for Web is pointless, especially when you usually have a choice of either Rocks or Web when using Smeargle. Galvantula has at least some offensive presence, but I wouldn't advocate him either.
Explosion might work in stopping Mandi from defogging immediately, but it can't stop Exca because Exca is faster. I don't even have to mention Lati@s or Starmie, you aren't stopping them either. Stop assuming Smeargle will outspeed to Explode and "block" the defog, 75 base Speed is terrible and most fast hazard removers will outspeed.
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