Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Colonial]

Exca is faster. Oh wait, it got hit by Sticky Web, nevermind.

I'm not going to argue Sticky Web's viability with you it's quite pointless. With that logic might as well take Galvantula off the list.

Max SpD Empoleon will never be up against +1 Gene seriously are you stupid?

I'm done arguing with you.

...wow. Grow up, stop insulting people for arguing with you. Why would Exca get hit with a Sticky Web on the switch in? Turn 1 Smeargle gets brought down to it's sash by a faster attacker, Smeargle uses spore. Turn 2, Excadrill switches in and Smeargle uses Web- Exca is brought in before Web goes up and as such is unaffected because switches go before moves, remember? Exca uses Rapid Spin.

Alternatively, Smeargle uses Web on turn 1. Exca would be effected then, but Smeargle would get KO'ed by a follow up attack because it's adversary wouldn't be sleep'd, and then no explosion shenanigans. In neither situation do you get up SR. You also failed to mention Lati@s, are you cherrypicking what argument you address?

And you brush off any argument on the viability of Web after stuffing it into my face as your own argument for 2 comments. I say it's not viable enough to justify using an entire pokemon, Galva or Smeargle.

Pengu never brought up against +1 genesect? He can never switch in was what I said. In response to you saying that Pengu could wall most Genesect. Implying that he could switch in more than half the time. Because he can't be brought in on +1 and barely can at +0, he can hardly wall Genesect now can he?
Please address my other arguments, not only the ones you can try to mix in an insult with. Learn to debate maturely, leave the childish insults to the politicians.

 

[Sandoori]

Smeargle is just bad. It's completely stopped by taunt, it's absolute set-up bait, it's slow, it has no offensive presence, it can't do anything except lay down hazards and die (or do some weird Destiny Room set if you're into that stuff.) One defog or Rapid Spin later and you're pretty much 5-6 right off the bat. And it loses to pretty much every other common lead.

There's plenty of stuff it can do with a bit of creativity beyond standard baton passing or hazard setting functions. You could have your Kyu-B out against a Smeargle and expect to get a free sub up while it Spores or sets up a hazard, and then it suddenly outspeeds you with Parting Shot, leaving you with 25% HP missing, both attacking stats lowered, and oh look here comes a specs infiltrator Noivern ready to ruin your day with SE sub-ignoring Draco Meteor.

Or, it's the start of the match, you lead with Smeargle. Anticipating Spore, your opponent switches in their Overcoat Mandibuzz, which you predict and throw out rocks instead. Apparently it's just a standard hazard lead, so they proceed to Knock Off the Focus Sash. Strangely the Knock Off does a lot more damage than they'd expect (why would anyone expect a Hasty Smeargle?), Endeavor drags them down to low HP, and then they finished off by espeed/explosion/v-create/dragon rage/whateverthehellyouwanttouse. Bam, guaranteed rocks AND you killed their defogger. If their next switch-in is slower you've still got a Spore to fall back on too, or Sticky Web if you're simply bluffing the threat of Spore (or at that point a second Endeavor too).

Or, Smeargle's sent out against your +2 Mega Pinsir after it scored a KO. Let's assume it's a full HP Smeargle and sleep clause is already in effect by other means, so you aren't worried about it surviving with sash and sporing you. It could be scarfed, and outspeed and revenge you with Foul Play. It could also be scarfed with Destiny Bond. Or maybe it's the aforementioned endeavor espeed set. Hell, maybe it has Counter. Or King's Shield. The standard Smeargle sets people normally expect have zero offensive presence, but with literally every move in the game available to it, there's plenty of stuff it can do to remove plenty of relevant threats regardless of its garbage base stats.

Shurtugal covered most of what I'd have to say about the standard hazard setter Smeargle. All I can add is that Memento's also an option in place of Explosion, but I haven't tried the latter myself. Looking at some random calcs it does more than I expected it to, I might have to try it out.

EDIT: I just realized turn order kind of fucks up the Mandibuzz example unless it's a slow espeed smeargle lol, it can still be made to work I guess

 

[Colonial]

There's plenty of stuff it can do with a bit of creativity beyond standard baton passing or hazard setting functions. You could have your Kyu-B out against a Smeargle and expect to get a free sub up while it Spores or sets up a hazard, and then it suddenly outspeeds you with Parting Shot, leaving you with 25% HP missing, both attacking stats lowered, and oh look here comes a specs infiltrator Noivern ready to ruin your day with SE sub-ignoring Draco Meteor.

Or, it's the start of the match, you lead with Smeargle. Anticipating Spore, your opponent switches in their Overcoat Mandibuzz, which you predict and throw out rocks instead. Apparently it's just a standard hazard lead, so they proceed to Knock Off the Focus Sash. Strangely the Knock Off does a lot more damage than they'd expect (why would anyone expect a Hasty Smeargle?), Endeavor drags them down to low HP, and then they finished off by espeed/explosion/v-create/dragon rage/whateverthehellyouwanttouse. Bam, guaranteed rocks AND you killed their defogger. If their next switch-in is slower you've still got a Spore to fall back on too, or Sticky Web if you're simply bluffing the threat of Spore.

Or, Smeargle's sent out against your +2 Mega Pinsir after it scored a KO. Let's assume it's a full HP Smeargle and sleep clause is already in effect by other means, so you aren't worried about it surviving with sash and sporing you. It could be scarfed, and outspeed and revenge you with Foul Play. It could also be scarfed with Destiny Bond. Or maybe it's the aforementioned endeavor espeed set. Hell, maybe it has Counter. Or King's Shield. The standard Smeargle sets people normally expect have zero offensive presence, but with literally every move in the game available to it, there's plenty of stuff it can do to remove plenty of relevant threats regardless of its garbage base stats.

Shurtugal covered most of what I'd have to say about the standard hazard setter Smeargle. All I can add is that Memento's also an option in place of Explosion, but I haven't tried the latter myself. Looking at some random calcs it does more than I expected it to, I might have to try it out.

That unpredictability point is true and should definitely be taken into account, but I'd like to point out that outside of surprise there is no job Smeargle can do that isn't done better by other pokemon, and nothing it can do that can't be taken advantage of should the opponent wise up (for example, scarfed DBond, should it fail to die, is incredible setup bait). It can do everything but needs to be unknown to do anything, so I can see it at C (along with Galvantula). Heavily outclassed but having a niche because of that massive surprise factor brought about by odd sets. The hazard lead has all hazards and many tricks, but again is outclassed by other leads.

 

[Senile]

There's plenty of stuff it can do with a bit of creativity beyond standard baton passing or hazard setting functions. You could have your Kyu-B out against a Smeargle and expect to get a free sub up while it Spores or sets up a hazard, and then it suddenly outspeeds you with Parting Shot, leaving you with 25% HP missing, both attacking stats lowered, and oh look here comes a specs infiltrator Noivern ready to ruin your day with SE sub-ignoring Draco Meteor.

How is this happening? If Smeargle is outspeeding Kyurem-B, it has a Scarf. How exactly is Smeargle getting in on Kyurem without dying? The only way I could imagine this is if it gets in on a revenge kill, and if you have an Infiltrator Noivern anyway, you should just send that in. I guess you could argue that if you do that, Kyu-B will just switch out and not take 25% from setting up a sub, but if your opponent predicts that (Because seriously, why would you send in a non-scarf Smeargle against a Kyurem-B instead of your Infiltrator Noivern?), you're risking this:


-1 216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 472-564 (151.7 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Parting Shot Smeargle isn't terrible, but that's a very poor example.

 

[Sandoori]

That unpredictability point is true and should definitely be taken into account, but I'd like to point out that outside of surprise there is no job Smeargle can do that isn't done better by other pokemon, and nothing it can do that can't be taken advantage of should the opponent wise up (for example, scarfed DBond, should it fail to die, is incredible setup bait). It can do everything but needs to be unknown to do anything, so I can see it at C (along with Galvantula). Heavily outclassed but having a niche because of that massive surprise factor brought about by odd sets. The hazard lead has all hazards and many tricks, but again is outclassed by other leads.

Oh, I agree completely. When I initially nominated it however many pages ago I said C~C+ for the same reason (I probably should've restated that oops). I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that there's more to Smeargle and it tends to work quite well thanks to nobody expecting it.

How is this happening? If Smeargle is outspeeding Kyurem-B, it has a Scarf. How exactly is Smeargle getting in on Kyurem without dying? The only way I could imagine this is if it gets in on a revenge kill, and if you have an Infiltrator Noivern anyway, you should just send that in. I guess you could argue that if you do that, Kyu-B will just switch out and not take 25% from setting up a sub, but if your opponent predicts that (Because seriously, why would you send in a non-scarf Smeargle against a Kyurem-B instead of your Infiltrator Noivern?), you're risking this:


-1 216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 472-564 (151.7 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Parting Shot Smeargle isn't terrible, but that's a very poor example.

You got me there. Could be as a lead from an opponent anticipating a free sub on a slower lead Smeargle Spore, but yeah that was a pretty terrible example. As I said I just wanted to draw attention to the fact that Smeargle has more options than spore, hazards, and smashpass.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Can someone sum up what's being debated right now so we can refocus?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Can someone sum up what's being debated right now so we can refocus?

almost nothing other than smeargle. So refocusing would be great.

 

[Srn]

On the topic of smeargle, I'm a little surpised nobody has mentioned the potential utility of parting shot.
As we know, only the outclassed pangoro (it still looks badass tho) gets access to this outside of smeargle.
While parting shot doesn't prevent a defog, it can take advantage of it against more offensive pokemon to attempt to create a dangerous set-up oppurtunity, allowing you to apply great pressure and take out 1 or 2 pokemon (depending on the sweeper coming in) early-game.

Threatening pokemon like m-lucario are worse then they might've been had they been blessed with better bulk, but parting shot can sorta patch that up. Of course, its important to keep in mind that you can only do this once (usually), because either hazards will break your sash if you don't lead with it or you use up your focus sash to take a hit and bring somebody in safely.

Bunch of other cool moves on smeargle if you're bored:
Topsy turvy with focus sash could be hilarious.
Grudge, again with focus sash, could cripple something like char-y, deleting pp of solarbeam or fire blast, potentially making it set-up fodder
Entrainment could be cool, considering own tempo is pretty useless. Gastro acid is probably better for this though.
Encore is always nice.
Magic coat is actually (gasp) slightly practical, especially in smeargle vs smeargle matchups.
Lunar dance is an excellent suicide move, but its generally better late-game, and 2nd turn lunar dances won't do too much. Smeargle shouldn't be around late-game either
King's Shield could be a cool move on him, just unexpected stuff overall.
Soak lol

Yeah I'm bored. None of you should be taking any of these seriously except for magic coat, which is actually cool.
Magic coat is just great against other anti-leads in general, not many people run magic coat on smeargle (because he's a little restricted on moveslots) but its great to bounce that taunt back to deo-s/d, bounce sticky web right back at galvantula, etc. It's a somewhat effective move with a little surprise to it.

EDIT: got (gre)ninja'd on parting shot, but w/e

 

[ensurdagen]

Is Hydreigon getting ignored as an addition because it hasn't been discussed enough? It was claimed that anything not added was deemed not worthy, but Hydreigon is clearly better than D-ranked pokemon. I would like to think that being a pokemon that can 2HKO anything in OU is enough to be worthy of B rank. If you don't believe me, play with the calculator--I'll be very surprised if you can find anything it can't be built to 2HKO. As the BW OU analysis says, "Hydreigon belongs to the special group of Pokemon that can boast they possess no true counters: they potentially carry a move that can OHKO or 2HKO any Pokemon in the game, and as such are virtually impossible to switch into." This still holds true with the introduction of fairies. The only fairy it isn't able to hit especially hard is Azumarill, but it can still be built to 2HKO Sitrus Berry Azumarill after Stealth Rocks.

While most people run Hydreigon to cover Aegislash or other similar pokemons' weaknesses, it can be used to bait and eliminate special walls with a mixed set and still hitting friggin hard with Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse. While not as fast as Latios, it has a much wider movepool, able to hit every single pokemon that resists Dragon not named Azumarill for super-effective damage stronger than Hidden Power! It can even hit the specially defensive ones with a supereffective physical move. Someone may point to 4x Fairy weakness as a disqualifier, but Fairy attacks are rarer than Ice, the usual dragon 4x weakness and a very common Hidden Power choice. On top of that, Hydreigon can 2HKO plenty of steel types now with Dark Pulse, and OHKO several with Fire Blast, while Latios is still stuck with HP Fire!

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

Where do you guys think Porygon2 should be ranked? I've been trying to come up with ranking for it for a while now, and I none of them really jump out. I want to say C, but that seems to low, but C+ seems to high.

Pros:
Amazing bulk
Deals out OK damage
Great coverage
Reliable recovery
Download and Analytic are both great

Cons:
Set-up bait
Has to chose between boltbeam or a STAB attack, which is either less damage or less coverage, neither of which you want
Has to chose between bulk and damage
Totally crippled by Toxic
No leftovers
Can often be deadweight on teams

I'm thinking C, but I wanted to hear your input on this.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Is Hydreigon getting ignored as an addition because it hasn't been discussed enough? It was claimed that anything not added was deemed not worthy, but Hydreigon is clearly better than D-ranked pokemon. I would like to think that being a pokemon that can 2HKO anything in OU is enough to be worthy of B rank. If you don't believe me, play with the calculator--I'll be very surprised if you can find anything it can't be built to 2HKO. As the BW OU analysis says, "Hydreigon belongs to the special group of Pokemon that can boast they possess no true counters: they potentially carry a move that can OHKO or 2HKO any Pokemon in the game, and as such are virtually impossible to switch into." This still holds true with the introduction of fairies. The only fairy it isn't able to hit especially hard is Azumarill, but it can still be built to 2HKO Sitrus Berry Azumarill after Stealth Rocks.

While most people run Hydreigon to cover Aegislash or other similar pokemons' weaknesses, it can be used to bait and eliminate special walls with a mixed set and still hitting friggin hard with Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse. While not as fast as Latios, it has a much wider movepool, able to hit every single pokemon that resists Dragon not named Azumarill for super-effective damage stronger than Hidden Power! It can even hit the specially defensive ones with a supereffective physical move. Someone may point to 4x Fairy weakness as a disqualifier, but Fairy attacks are rarer than Ice, the usual dragon 4x weakness and a very common Hidden Power choice. On top of that, Hydreigon can 2HKO plenty of steel types now with Dark Pulse, and OHKO several with Fire Blast, while Latios is still stuck with HP Fire!

I'm pretty sure neither Hydreigon's Iron Tail nor Flash Cannon can 2HKO Fairies. Or Vaporeon. Or Rotom-W (correct me if I'm wrong). We had a discussion about this earlier.

Hydreigon's power level dropped pretty hard in the transition from Gen V to Gen VI. The drop in power in Draco Meteor and Fire Blast reduces the chances of it 2HKOing some threats that it could last gen (can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but moving on). Furthermore, things like Blissey have drop significantly in usage and utility and offense's on the rise. Finally, it's a bit on the slow side of things and really weak to common priorities in OU right now. B sounds fine for it.

 

[6feetunder]

Is Hydreigon getting ignored as an addition because it hasn't been discussed enough? It was claimed that anything not added was deemed not worthy, but Hydreigon is clearly better than D-ranked pokemon. I would like to think that being a pokemon that can 2HKO anything in OU is enough to be worthy of B rank. If you don't believe me, play with the calculator--I'll be very surprised if you can find anything it can't be built to 2HKO. As the BW OU analysis says, "Hydreigon belongs to the special group of Pokemon that can boast they possess no true counters: they potentially carry a move that can OHKO or 2HKO any Pokemon in the game, and as such are virtually impossible to switch into." This still holds true with the introduction of fairies. The only fairy it isn't able to hit especially hard is Azumarill, but it can still be built to 2HKO Sitrus Berry Azumarill after Stealth Rocks.

While most people run Hydreigon to cover Aegislash or other similar pokemons' weaknesses, it can be used to bait and eliminate special walls with a mixed set and still hitting friggin hard with Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse. While not as fast as Latios, it has a much wider movepool, able to hit every single pokemon that resists Dragon not named Azumarill for super-effective damage stronger than Hidden Power! It can even hit the specially defensive ones with a supereffective physical move. Someone may point to 4x Fairy weakness as a disqualifier, but Fairy attacks are rarer than Ice, the usual dragon 4x weakness and a very common Hidden Power choice. On top of that, Hydreigon can 2HKO plenty of steel types now with Dark Pulse, and OHKO several with Fire Blast, while Latios is still stuck with HP Fire!

hydreigon can't do jack shit to fairies without flash cannon, and unless you're running some weird set with hp grass or charge beam, you're not 2hkoing sitrus berry azumarill.

hydreigon has several other weaknesses besides fairy, namely fighting, dragon, ice, and bug, all of which are common. hydreigon also sits at a mediocre speed tier, falling short of genesect, garchomp, and the 8 million pokemon sitting at base 100.

 

[rachet67]

Last gen. the only real reason to use hydreigon was as a decent wall breaker. However, as of gen 6 there are new walls like sylveon and venesaur that superpower, draco meteor, and even fire blast can't get through. It still has to deal with the same old cores it hated last generation, and still can't get past chansey, despite superpower being there just for it.

252+ SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 107-127 (29.3 - 34.8%) -- 13.3% chance to 3HKO
Venesaur can leech seed it and stall it out with synthesis.

0 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 309-367 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
After the attack drop its nowhere close to a 2HKO (keep dreaming for Close Combat move tutor).

Its specs set is powerful, but is slow and is very prone to revenge killing. In addition it relies on draco meteor which lowers its SpA preventing important 2HKO's and making it set up bait, and Focus Miss, which, well misses. The only thing it got this generation is a buffed dark pulse, but it has slightly underwhelming BP and can't make up for all its other flaws.

Basically, although its not really outclassed by any other poke, it can't really do its job all that well, and fails to make much of an impact. I think C+, maybe B- is as high as this mon should go.

 

[mertyville]

I believe the Dark Buff helped Hydreigon a bit. It can run a lot of scary sets already which is worth enough of nominating. True, Fairies are threatening Hydreigon, but it can just gain momentum with u-turn or hit them with Flash Cannon. True, that neither of the Steel Moves can KO any fairy typ, but it does enough damage to revange kill it with something else. Though, Earth Power is now an option, or rather even better, since besides Togekiss all fairies are hit with neutral damage and Fire Blast can deal decent enough damage on Togekiss.

I hope that doesn't sound like I want people to go 1vs1 against fairies with Hydreigon. All I want to say, that its main attacks might be completely walled by Azumarill (Dragon moves, dark moves, fighting moves, fire moves, u-turn all which were excellent coverage last gen in some combination), but it still can hit hard from both offensive stats and still has coverage.

It is difficult to put it in words, but if you used Hydreigon, you will see that the special move nerf, the dragon nerf and the dark "nerf" didn't hurt Hydreigon at all. It has the same problems like last generation and you just can't spam Outrage or Draco Meteor that often, from which Hydreigon and Kyurem-B are benefiting from, since you can run other sets which are suprisingly more effective. (I freaking love the Sub+3 attack set on Kyurem-B)

 

[Timpsu]

So I know we already kinda had the trapper-viability discussion, but I'm going to go with this either way, since I see the overall discussion has slowed down a bit. I'm going to bring up the unique niche of Magnezone trapping Steel-types. Although not the only role Magnezone can take, it is most propably the most common one, and the biggest reason why one would use Magnezone in OU. The reasoning behind my arguments is going to stem from the official OU analysis in the making. I don't really have strong opinions about Magnezone's rank, I just want to see it ranked. For the sake of discussion, I am going to nominate Magnezone for the rank of C+ along with some other trappers, for example Dugtrio.

The biggest reason to put the + is that Magnezone's niche is unique. There are no other Steel trappers in OU, and Magnezone is even quite good at what it does. Magnezone benefits most from teams that like to have Steel-types removed, and it works kinda well in this role still. The traditional type Magnezone was paired up with was Dragons, and they still benefit from removing opposing Steel-types. However, now there are also Fairy-types to worry about. Despite not being able to trap Fairy-types, Zone still has a pretty good matchup against most Fairies, so Magnezone can still work quite well on teams that depend on their Dragons to make havoc. HP Fire is quite the sure kill on most Steel-types of OU, and Magnezone's defenses guarantee that unless opponent is carrying a coverage moves, they won't succeed in killing Zone. Also, there's now no permarain that can take away from HP Fire's usefulness, although the overall HP-nerf is a bad thing for Zone. One problem to using Magnezone is that there are still Steel-types that Magnezone cannot revenge kill, and the trapping should only be done on mostly defensive Steels, eg. Skarmory and Ferrothorn. It can also defeat some attackers, like Genesect and Scizor, but that depends on their coverage moves. Most problematic Steels are Aegislash, Heatran, Exca and (+2, not so sure about unboosted) Lucario, who can either kill Zone reliably or escape his Pull all together. Also, being locked into a weak HP Fire is not the best way to start a round after the opposing Steel-type has been demolished.

Steel trapping is a unique niche granted to Magnezone, and it can work in it. However, the unreliability against the most common Steel-types is really offputting, and makes you wonder if Zone really deserves a rank just because it can reliably defeat only some Steel-types. Now I would like to refer to the Specs/Analytic-set, which, for me, has worked really well. Magnezone has a plethora of resistances, and it is not hard to find room for Zone on an offensive team. SpecsLytic (I just made this up, sorry) hits incredibly hard, and by using Volt Switch, u become arguably the hardest-hitting pivot in the game. Unless your opponent has Ground/Fighting/Fire-coverage, he is almost forced to switch, or atleast take a truckload of damage from this behemoth. The one downside to using this is that Volt Switch is the least spammable alternative of Volt-turn core. There are Ground-types behind every corner, and they'll just love to switch to Magnezone to take him out. Now the outcome will depend on your coverage moves. Flash Cannon hits Ground switch-ins from some serious damage, although it will not OHKO everything. Hippen Power Ice becomes alluring, since that's a great way to get rid of those pesky Grounds. There are still some Pokemon who can switch to Zone, and maybe even take 2 hits from him. Exca doesn't fear anything, since even with HP Fire, u won't OHKO, and Exca can proceed to Earthquake. Aegislash and Heatran are both so specially bulky, that u just won't 2HKO them. Keeping up hazards can alleviate this problem.

K, so putting it all together: Magnezone has a unique niche of successfully removing some problematic Steel and Fairy-types from the game, and letting, for example, your Dragons come off a bit easier. However, Zone cannot reliably kill some of the Steel-types that are at the very peak of usage. If not going for Magnezone's steel-trapping capabilities, you might also want to consider the Specs + Analytic set, that has the merit of being the strongest Volt Switch in all of OU, letting your team grab momentums that much easier. Because of Magnezone's defensive merits (stemming mostly from the awesome typing+ nice defensive stats) and offensive capabilities explained above, I would like to see Magnezone ranked at C+.

 

[SergantGold]

Also, what the fuck, Vaporeon gets ranked OVER Empoleon. Please, someone explain this to me. Empleon gets DEFOG and it walls *most* GENESECT SETS for crying out loud! Empoleon should be B+ in all honesty it does its job rather well. I hope other people who have been using Empoleon back me up on this. Vaporeon is so lackluster in comparison. Sure, it gets Heal Bell and Wish and I guess Baton Pass (but who counts that as BP should just be chucked out of all discussion since the only time BP Vaporeon is viable is on full BP teams so yeah...). Also, why are we even mentioning things like Wheezing in an OU viability thread? Doesn't mentioning it encourage it's use? I mean, Wheezing isn't BAD but this system is built for NEWER players to use, right? So why are we mentioning something they could probably never properly build with? (This is just one Pokemon of the many like WOW WHISMICOTT HELLO and OHMYLORD DUGTRIO, which by the way, CAN'T TRAP AEGISLASH (screw you Nintendo, giving ghosts immunity to trapping) so what's the point? Better off using Keldeo or Terrakion or whatever for Heatran or even HP Ground Gene over Dugtrio it's just not worth it).

I would like a higher rank for empoleon ( B- ), i have been using it and it is amazing. it only underpreforms when a magnezone trapper is around (Not Dugtrio b/c i usually carry air balloon on it so i can KO it and mamo.) and even then it can usually take 2-3 hits to damage magnezone/defog rocks i really don't want on the field to fuck with my sweepers. And Empoleon also has the rare SR+Defog Combo which is really nice for teams that don't really needf SR but greatly appriciate it.

but wtf it can't really take gene without a good bit of wish support.

(note: for the SR+Defog you go Defog > SR preferably after killing their setter (I carry air balloon to help it kill mamos that SR first turn to achieve this position) so you don't defog your own god damn rocks)


I also think that we should discuss a ranking for Mega Ampharos. I would suggest B as a very powerful slow and bulky Volt Switch is very nice, and it also has a nice typing and works great on TR teams.

 

[Salemance]

I would like a higher rank for empoleon ( B- ), i have been using it and it is amazing. it only underpreforms when a magnezone trapper is around (Not Dugtrio b/c i usually carry air balloon on it so i can KO it and mamo.) and even then it can usually take 2-3 hits to damage magnezone/defog rocks i really don't want on the field to fuck with my sweepers. And Empoleon also has the rare SR+Defog Combo which is really nice for teams that don't really needf SR but greatly appriciate it.

but wtf it can't really take gene without a good bit of wish support.

(note: for the SR+Defog you go Defog > SR preferably after killing their setter (I carry air balloon to help it kill mamos that SR first turn to achieve this position) so you don't defog your own god damn rocks)


I also think that we should discuss a ranking for Mega Ampharos. I would suggest B as a very powerful slow and bulky Volt Switch is very nice, and it also has a nice typing and works great on TR teams.

I was wondering when Mega Amph would get mentioned. *hi fives you*

Now Mega Ampharos is an interesting Mega that has some cons like any. He is slower than his base form except at the turn of evolution, and has albeit, only good bulk. He takes up a Mega slot and carries three common weaknesses and lacks the mighty Draco Meteor for spammable damage. Then both of his STABs are immune to a type each thus meaning he can't just attack willy nilly with only so-so coverage.

Yet, even with those faults, he is easily one of the most fearsome Mega Pokemon. With a base 165 Sp. Attack, you know he will be hitting hard. He comes with great boosting move in the form of Cotton Guard to help increase his already respectable defense stat and Agility to alleviate his slow speed. He comes with one of the slowest Volt Switches, almost guaranteeing a free switch in for another poke (and it must be stressed, you will most likely not be carrying Switch and a Boosting move as that is a little counter productive). He also comes with a multitude of great resists in Fire, Flying, Water, Grass, and a double resist to Electric.

Is he the easiest mega to use? Sadly no, but he is one of the most rewarding. A B rank seems fitting for him but there are already so many in B rank that I don't know if its getting over saturated.....

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Starmie's offensive capabilities are not sub par, no matter how you spin it. High BP, potentially (probably if you play your cards right) Analytic-boosted, attacks with great coverage certainly make up for it. Starmie is not weak.

I see what you did there, you clever cunt.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Analytic LO Starmie is roughly as powerful as Specs Keldeo on the switch (don't read too much into the Tyranitar example). This is hardly 'sub par special offense', as Specs Keldeo is among the more powerful Pokemon in the tier. True, Starmie competes with Blastoise and Excadrill, but it's faster and has better coverage. It's frailer and thus has less switch-in opportunities, which are flaws, but Starmie is still a good choice in OU.

Anyways, I agree with all of this. I personally adore the fast spins it can pull off, as I can spin in the face of anything without priority that'll kill me (IE Bisharp, CB Talonflame, MMawile etc). It's a good partner for teams with several rocks weak mons, and if you don't want to tie with opposing 110s (like the Defoggers do) or be outsped by mostly everything offensive (Excadrill).

Also, it outspeeds and OHKOs Mega Luke with LO Hydro Pump. Unless MLuke runs Espeed, then even +2 will fail to KO. And it would seem that most go to Vacuum or Bullet Punch anyways.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Starmie's offensive capabilities are not sub par, no matter how you spin it. High BP, potentially (probably if you play your cards right) Analytic-boosted, attacks with great coverage certainly make up for it. Starmie is not weak.

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

Analytic LO Starmie is roughly as powerful as Specs Keldeo on the switch (don't read too much into the Tyranitar example).

Why would Tyranitar switch into Specs Keldeo though? xD

 

[escarlata]

Why would Tyranitar switch into Specs Keldeo though? xD

He did say don't read too much into the Tyranitar example. It is only arbitrary. Other than that, I agree that Starmie is still a very good spinner. I think that people often have the first instinct of picking Excadrill because it can beat spinblockers easier, but often forget the fact that Excadrill also builds up a easy EdgeQuake weakness. Imo, Starmie is still amongst the most reliable spinners because of its good speed and power which builds up oppotunity for it to spin. I believe it still should receive B+ treatment.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

He did say don't read too much into the Tyranitar example. It is only arbitrary. Other than that, I agree that Starmie is still a very good spinner. I think that people often have the first instinct of picking Excadrill because it can beat spinblockers easier, but often forget the fact that Excadrill also builds up a easy EdgeQuake weakness. Imo, Starmie is still amongst the most reliable spinners because of its good speed and power which builds up oppotunity for it to spin. I believe it still should receive B+ treatment.

Hmmm good point though perhaps it wasn't the best example out there. I don't get why you say that Excadrill is weak to EdgeQuake though, in fact Air Balloon Excadrill (the most common set from my experience at least) is immune to Ground and resists Rock x4. Starmie is a decent spinner, though generally Defog is a lot more reliable nowadays, especially with Aegislash ruining Starmies day.

 

[escarlata]

Hmmm good point though perhaps it wasn't the best example out there. I don't get why you say that Excadrill is weak to EdgeQuake though, in fact Air Balloon Excadrill (the most common set from my experience at least) is immune to Ground and resists Rock x4. Starmie is a decent spinner, though generally Defog is a lot more reliable nowadays, especially with Aegislash ruining Starmies day.

Excadrill is weak to Ground, and if you need a spinner it usually means something on your team has a Rock weakness. Personally, I'm not seeing much Air Balloon Excadrills and rather more with Lefties/Lum/AV ones, so generally using Excadrill with as a spinner usually means that Landorus-T (most common user of EdgeQuake iirc, who just happens to dgaf about Air Balloon), usually will take down 2 members if you are not careful, whereas Starmie beats most Rock users on the contrary.

And tbh, Starmie does not have that much problem with Aegislash as we make it seem. In particular, Aegislash cannot switch reliably into Starmie twice without risking a Hydro Pump miss.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 140-168 (53.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At the end of the day, Excadrill might be a more reliable spinner than Starmie in that it guarantees a spin more easily, but Starmie is still a very solid offensive spinner, especially since it can double as a wallbreaker after doing its job. In fact, x1.5 STAB with x1.33 Analytic is exactly as much as a Adaptability boost, which means Starmie DOES have that ability to do so, especially when backed with a good 115 base Spd.

 

[ensurdagen]

hydreigon can't do jack shit to fairies without flash cannon, and unless you're running some weird set with hp grass or charge beam, you're not 2hkoing sitrus berry azumarill.

hydreigon has several other weaknesses besides fairy, namely fighting, dragon, ice, and bug, all of which are common. hydreigon also sits at a mediocre speed tier, falling short of genesect, garchomp, and the 8 million pokemon sitting at base 100.

You can 2HKO azumarill with a Head Smash mixed set, as well as Sylveon and several other special walls that resist Superpower. While it cripples Hydreigon, you open yourself up to sweep with Dark, Fighting, or Dragon moves from another pokemon with a set like this. It's situational, but the potential is there, Flash cannon is actually a terrible idea in OU because the only OU fairies weak to it are specially defensive. Iron Tail is also terrible, that accuracy is meh. I'm not saying any Hydreigon set can accomplish this, but it can be set up to 2HKO the entire metagame, and is only useful with a mixed set if you are using it specifically to bait out special walls and fairies. Its lack of popularity means such sets are rare, but that makes it even more useful. If you have problems with Azumarill specifically, I don't see what the issue with Charge Beam is--you bait out Azurmarill, take a resisted aqua jet, and end up with a +2 Hydreigon. Unlike Mega-Gardevoir, a "mixed" attacker in the B-tier, it can hold a Scarf. In fact, it outspeeds most of the B tier. Even if it's not B, it's clearly more viable in OU than several pokemon already tiered, and I wish people would suggest lower tiers than I do instead of just discounting what I say.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Excadrill is weak to Ground, and if you need a spinner it usually means something on your team has a Rock weakness. Personally, I'm not seeing much Air Balloon Excadrills and rather more with Lefties/Lum/AV ones, so generally using Excadrill with as a spinner usually means that Landorus-T (most common user of EdgeQuake iirc, who just happens to dgaf about Air Balloon), usually will take down 2 members if you are not careful, whereas Starmie beats most Rock users on the contrary.

And tbh, Starmie does not have that much problem with Aegislash as we make it seem. In particular, Aegislash cannot switch reliably into Starmie twice without risking a Hydro Pump miss.
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 182-216 (56.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 140-168 (53.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At the end of the day, Excadrill might be a more reliable spinner than Starmie, but Starmie is still a very solid offensive spinner, especially since it can double as a wallbreaker after doing its job. In fact, x1.5 STAB with x1.33 Analytic is exactly as much as a Adaptability boost, which means Starmie DOES have that ability to do so, especially when backed with a good 115 base Spd.

Well obviously Excadrill loses to Landorus-T, but it's not like Starmie can safely Rapid Spin either:

252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 208-246 (79.6 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just going by the most used sets on Smogon here, I personally wouldn't use max attack Landorus-T but then again 0 atk Aegislash is just as, if not even more silly. Even if you predict Aegislash correctly with Starmie, you still die to a Shadow Sneak:

252+ Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dead after LO. And most importantly, you never got a Rapid Spin off. Also on a side note, Analytic only applies when the opponent switches out, it's not a consistent boost. Offensively Starmie is eclipsed by Greninja by a mile. It has a niche, though it's not nearly as good as it was last gen.

 

[escarlata]

Well obviously Excadrill loses to Landorus-T, but it's not like Starmie can safely Rapid Spin either:

252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 208-246 (79.6 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just going by the most used sets on Smogon here, I personally wouldn't use max attack Landorus-T but then again 0 atk Aegislash is just as, if not even more silly. Even if you predict Aegislash correctly with Starmie, you still die to a Shadow Sneak:

252+ Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (83.5 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dead after LO. And most importantly, you never got a Rapid Spin off. Also on a side note, Analytic only applies when the opponent switches out, it's not a consistent boost. Offensively Starmie is eclipsed by Greninja by a mile. It has a niche, though it's not nearly as good as it was last gen.

Most Aegislash (or at least for standard ones) I see usually runs 240 HP/252 SAtk/4 SDef/12 Spd. The thing about Starmie is that it actually dents Aegislash and can adapt according to the damage. If it hits more than 67%, chances are that it runs 252/252 offences, and switch out, while Aegislash usually cannot switch in anymore. Problem with Excadrill with Landorus-T is that it just happens that it also happens to wall many of the stuff that needs spin support for. And for Landorus-T, the most commonly used I believe is the 248 HP / 16 Atk / 244 Def (it also just happens to be the set that troubles most top threats which actually needs the spin support), which gets outsped and OHKOed by Starmie without even an Analytic boost.

Analytic activates when the opponent switch in, which means that you can almost get that boost as long as you switch into something to threaten a spin, and Hydro Pump first before actually attempting the spin.

At the end of the day, it is up to whether you want to get the spin ~100% of the time, or pose of an offensive threat while still spinning very reliably. So I don't see Excadrill in direct competition with Starmie. It is just that considering many top tier threats are 4x weak to SR and a guaranteed spin is usually more valued that Excadrill is usually better as a spinner. Excadrill is a spinner first and an attacker second. Starmie is an attacker first and a spinner second, by generating the chance to spin, after it eliminates common switch ins.

;tldr
Excadrill definitely can spin more reliably for stuff like Charizard, Pinsir, Talonflame and other top tier sweepers to come in easily, but Starmie functions a role altogether, by sacrificing a bit of reliability in spinning in being able to break down the walls that actually trouble the aforesaid sweepers, to allow them to sweep better. So it boils down to whether you want a easy sweep or a slightly harder but more clean sweep, which is why they have each their own advantages and are not in direct competition. Again Starmie for B+ in case my original post is lost and missed somewhere.