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Then how does toxicroak deal damage with a base 95 sttack and is still considered an attacker?
Those 2 pokemon (mamoswine and kyurem) are a: moves mamoswine can only normally pull off on a slower pokemon (would it go for that or ice shard on a staraptor?) or b: Special KyuB. (who does that anyways)
So what you're telling me is 108 / 95 / 85 isn't bulky? Hello? I'm not sure what more you want in terms of bulk in an offensive Pokemon.
Assault Vest Zygarde? lol really? Colonial already posted calcs against the common Ice moves in the tier. Even with an Assault Vest you still lose to Greninja, Keldeo, Genesect, Manaphy, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B. Most of these you need to be 252 HP / 252 SpD to even stand a chance of winning 1v1 meaning it has no attack investment and hits like more of a wet noodle than it already does. You can't even Dragon Dance to boost your attack with and Assault Vest, so I don't understand how this is proving anything.
lol.
Zygarde has Extreme Speed which is weak, unstabbed and coming from base 100 Atk. If you really wanted to use a Dragon with Extreme Speed, Dragonite is the best option there. Okay, fine Garchomp doesn't have priority but that hasn't held it back in the past and its definitely not doing so now.
You contradicted yourself with that last point. So I don't even know where you stand on that.
Lastly, can you stop posting with meme arrows? This isn't 4chan, if you want to be taken seriously post with actually sentences.
Explain to me the roughly 20 or so battles ive swept with Zygarde, and against some pretty experienced people too.
On all of those, there has been atleast 1 fairy, or pokemon like Mamoswine and Kyurem B.
Also, Greninja gets stab + Life Orb, Genesect gets the sp.attack boost (i think) from switching into zygarde, who if you invest sp.attack into I dont know what the heck you plan on doing, Manaphy has tail glow (and a base 100 sp.attack and by judging from what your all telling me, is weak!), Mamoswine needs to use a icicle crash, which you can easily switch a counter in to, And once again, Who the heck runs a SPECIAL KYUREM B when you have a base 170 ATTACK, And you dont even get a decent physical ice move, Unless you consider Avalanche.
Special/Mixed Kyub is the best and most popular set, because Cube has exactly 3 physical moves: Dragon Claw, Outrage, and Fusion Bolt. However, he has a very nice special movepool and 120 special attack- in fact, mixed Kyub has some of the best coverage in the game with Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, and Ice Beam. Kyub NEEDS to run special to be effective, physical has terrible coverage when compared to mixed.
Toxicroak was never a good pokemon individually, it was effective in Gen V because of permarain+dry skin and the meta shaping up to be beneficial for it. And Toxicroak has 106 Attack, not 95. Still not much but could be worked around as Toxicroak has Swords Dance.
Explain to me the roughly 20 or so battles ive swept with Zygarde, and against some pretty experienced people too.
On all of those, there has been atleast 1 fairy, or pokemon like Mamoswine and Kyurem B.
Also, Greninja gets stab + Life Orb, Genesect gets the sp.attack boost (i think) from switching into zygarde, who if you invest sp.attack into I dont know what the heck you plan on doing, Manaphy has tail glow (and a base 100 sp.attack and by judging from what your all telling me, is weak!), Mamoswine needs to use a icicle crash, which you can easily switch a counter in to, And once again, Who the heck runs a SPECIAL KYUREM B when you have a base 170 ATTACK, And you dont even get a decent physical ice move, Unless you consider Avalanche.
No one can tell what have happened on your games when you do not post replays.
Don't understand your second sentence.
Genesect should not be put into argument as it revenge kills the world, and if you want to compare anything with Manaphy please get them a +3 boost first.
Well I am completely lost afterwards, even if you dislike complete sentences, at least make them understandable.
Explain to me the roughly 20 or so battles ive swept with Zygarde, and against some pretty experienced people too.
On all of those, there has been atleast 1 fairy, or pokemon like Mamoswine and Kyurem B.
Also, Greninja gets stab + Life Orb, Genesect gets the sp.attack boost (i think) from switching into zygarde, who if you invest sp.attack into I dont know what the heck you plan on doing, Manaphy has tail glow (and a base 100 sp.attack and by judging from what your all telling me, is weak!), Mamoswine needs to use a icicle crash, which you can easily switch a counter in to, And once again, Who the heck runs a SPECIAL KYUREM B when you have a base 170 ATTACK, And you dont even get a decent physical ice move, Unless you consider Avalanche.
Personal experience is never a good indicator. I've swept with freaking Gastrodon before. Mixed Kyub is, as I've already stated, the best set for it. Ever wonder why, exactly, Kyub is OU when it has better stats than many Ubers and no trollish nerfs a la Archeops? That inability to make good use of it's 170 Attack.
And what's that with the Greninja/Genesect statements? Genesect is almost always specially based, and it almost always has Ice beam, so Gene will wreck Zygarde. You're saying why those pokemon are strong, not saying anything in Zygarde's defense. All those pokemon do beat Zygarde, as do many more.
Who exactly are these experienced players? I'm assuming you're playing on the ladder, and sweeping with Zygarde on the ladder isn't a great feat. Unless you have names of relevant high level players that you are beating, this means very little.
On all of those, there has been atleast 1 fairy, or pokemon like Mamoswine and Kyurem B.
Okay, you are playing on the ladder. Having a fairy on your team doesn't make you safe from most of the dragons in OU. Most of which have coverage moves that can deal with them. Just having a Mamoswine or Kyurem-B doesn't mean much if you boosted then, yes, you can sweep. But that would means you would have had to Dragon Dance at least twice since Mamoswine can take a +1 Extreme Speed and takes you out with Ice Shard after the Life Orb recoil. Kyurem-B isn't a stop to Zygarde unless its Scarfed and Zygarde is unboosted.
Genesect gets the sp.attack boost (i think) from switching into zygarde, who if you invest sp.attack into I dont know what the heck you plan on doing,
I wasn't accounting a Tail Glow boost when I mentioned Manaphy. You still lose to an unboosted Manaphy. Okay, you got me. Base 100 isn't what it was two or three generations ago, which is why I say it is weak in comparison to the rest of the metagame. However, Manaphy will pose a threat after one boost not multiple ones like Zygarde often needs.
And once again, Who the heck runs a SPECIAL KYUREM B when you have a base 170 ATTACK, And you dont even get a decent physical ice move, Unless you consider Avalanche.
Who exactly are these experienced players? I'm assuming you're playing on the ladder, and sweeping with Zygarde on the ladder isn't a great feat. Unless you have names of relevant high level players that you are beating, this means very little.
Okay, you are playing on the ladder. Having a fairy on your team doesn't make you safe from most of the dragons in OU. Most of which have coverage moves that can deal with them. Just having a Mamoswine or Kyurem-B doesn't mean much if you boosted then, yes, you can sweep. But that would means you would have had to Dragon Dance at least twice since Mamoswine can take a +1 Extreme Speed and takes you out with Ice Shard after the Life Orb recoil. Kyurem-B isn't a stop to Zygarde unless its Scarfed and Zygarde is unboosted.
Special Genesect is a normal thing...
I wasn't accounting a Tail Glow boost when I mentioned Manaphy. You still lose to an unboosted Manaphy. Okay, you got me. Base 100 isn't what it was two or three generations ago, which is why I say it is weak in comparison to the rest of the metagame. However, Manaphy will pose a threat after one boost not multiple ones like Zygarde often needs.
Special Kyurem-B has been Kyurem-B's best set since BW2 OU. Just about every high level player uses it a mixed set because it's the most effective.
Garchomps defenses are 105/95 85
Zygardes are 108/121/95 (boosted to 132.5 after av!)
Offenses are:
Garchomp:130/80
Zygarde: 100/81 (zygarde gets dragon dance!) I think you are also missing a critical stat: Speed. Garchomp works better offensively since it already has a very high Attack and a particularly fast Speed. Zygarde has no luxury, and has to set up to reach those same conditions.
Zygarde can take every unboosted hit, most boosted, and a few +3/+4 moves, with AV, And can outspeed quite a few things if instead of AV you use DD. Those past calculations with any Ice-type move pretty much speak for themselves. Even with AV, Zygarde is not going to live an Ice-type move any time soon.
Oh, Also, "meh" Attack?
>jirachi Serene Grace and access to a lot of coverage.
>victini Same as above, has Victory Star to help out with its event moves (Blue Flare + Bolt Strike, most notably the latter)
>tangrowth (i still say to this day this is underrated af as a chlorophyll sweeper) Has a lot of physical/special options, and it isn't even offensively-based. Tangrowth should always run Regenerator.
>giratina You are comparing a naturally defensive Pokemon to what you call an "offensive" Pokemon...not a really good point. Even so, Giratina has more to offer than Zygarde imo.
All four have a better movepool and a better ability for their offenses than what Zygarde has to offer.
I don't even want to correct the errors here, all I can say is:
A) Comparing naturally defensive Pokemon to it (especially in Lugia's case).
B) The other Pokemon do their role better than what you think Zygarde's role is.
Slightly above it are:
>infernape
>aerodactyl
>not mega lucario/normal lucario
Band on Mamoswine is a good set, but hardly the only one. Mamo OHKO's Zygarde without band anyway though, so I'm not sure how Band is relevant to the arguments.
From the last few pages, I'd say the best place for Zygarde would be C+. It has some use but is largely outclassed, and while it's bulky it cannot escape various OHKO's, doesn't have much of a support movepool, and can do little to threaten an enemy without extensive boosting. As such it should be moved down from B to C or C+.
Anyone think that Staraptor could still be OU or will it be outclassed by Talonflame? They both are high speed high attack pokemon who rely on brave bird for their main STAB attack, Talonflame gets priority while Staraptor has higher attack.
If Staraptor stays, I would say a C ranking. Maybe.
Anyone think that Staraptor could still be OU or will it be outclassed by Talonflame? They both are high speed high attack pokemon who rely on brave bird for their main STAB attack, Talonflame gets priority while Staraptor has higher attack.
If Staraptor stays, I would say a C ranking. Maybe.
Anyone think that Staraptor could still be OU or will it be outclassed by Talonflame? They both are high speed high attack pokemon who rely on brave bird for their main STAB attack, Talonflame gets priority while Staraptor has higher attack.
If Staraptor stays, I would say a C ranking. Maybe.
As the good Sergeant said, Staraptor avoids being outclassed by being able to hit really, really hard. It can OHKO 252/0 Azumarill!
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 400-472 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Staraptor actually makes for a good partner for Talonflame in the Double Bird strategy. Double Bird is similar to Gen V's Double Dragon and Dragon Spam strategies, use 2 similar pokemon to wear down any checks between them and sweep once the checks are gone.
Staraptor is one of my favorite birds... Reckless allows him to hit like a damn truck. He won't be around long... but as long as Super-Staraptor takes down one mon and severely injures another, consider his job done.
As the good Sergeant said, Staraptor avoids being outclassed by being able to hit really, really hard. It can OHKO 252/0 Azumarill!
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 400-472 (99 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Staraptor actually makes for a good partner for Talonflame in the Double Bird strategy. Double Bird is similar to Gen V's Double Dragon and Dragon Spam strategies, use 2 similar pokemon to wear down any checks between them and sweep once the checks are gone.
Not quite so, Staraptor was an infamous wall breaker even back in last gen (banned from UU), CB reckless STAB BB from 120 ATK is always something to be reckoned, I don't see how Honch get the same praise
Not quite so, Staraptor was an infamous wall breaker even back in last gen (banned from UU), CB reckless STAB BB from 120 ATK is always something to be reckoned, I don't see how Honch get the same praise
Honch is to slow to make an impact... it gets outspeed by stuff like Claydol man!!!
But seriously, its impressive 125/105 offense is hindered by its speed and even if you scarf him... his speed increases to 106.5 which barely registers and the inconvenience of being locked into one move for a pokemon like Honch is too much to work around.
Moxie does not really matter when the job you are expecting to do is to crush your counter and die afterward, Honch don't create nearly as much pressure as Staraptor to the releveant counters.
I don't want to comment too much about Honch, but I can tell it is probably not a good wall breaker, which is the job expected from the 2nd bird on the double bird strate.
Moxie does not really matter when the job you are expecting to do is to crush your counter and die afterward, Honch don't create nearly as much pressure as Staraptor to the releveant counters.
I don't want to comment too much about Honch, but I can tell it is probably not a good wall breaker, which is the job expected from the 2nd bird on the double bird strate.
Exactly... too be honest the 105 SpA and Moxie is irrelevant in Double Birds. When running anything Double, the question is: Can this guy apply the pressure needed to make my opponent feel uncomfortable?
Staraptor, due to Reckless and if Banded, is a force to be reckoned with and possesses the magic 100 Base Speed; which seems to be this generations floor on acceptable speed, at least imo.
jesus christ, sifting through 16 pages of this thread is quite the task.
ok, so ranks will be updated relatively soon. if you haven't seen anything come of a nomination in a while, give it a little bit of time before you bump your nomination or re-post it or whatever.
also never spend four fucking pages on something like donphan again please.
oh and if you're going to make a post, please spend enough effort on it to say something even slightly relevant. just saying "I disagree" or "no, this should be x rank" is a waste of a post and only adds clutter.
Just from a quick look at the list, some stuff really needs to be moved around:
Moved down:
Goodra C+ Rank
Mega-Aerodactyl C Rank
Dragonite B+ Rank
Tentacruel C Rank
Infernape C+ Rank
Celebi C+ Rank
Liepard D Rank, preferably E Rank for "don't ever use"
Goodra and Mega-Aerodactyl are possibly the most inflated Pokemon on this list. From my experience, Goodra is definitely not a threat to prepare for above Mega-Medicham or Gliscor. It's ability as a defensive tank is limited because of the lack of resistance's, reliable recovery, and a small support movepool. Competition with Latias is very intense because Latias has some critical extra resists, most importantly Fighting + Ground immunity, and Defog / Healing Wish that can support its team very well. Also Goodra loses momentum in games by being susceptible to all the other dragons being faster + most physical attackers. Mega Aerodactyl is probably the worse Mega-evolution. It's ability doesn't really do anything for it, its not very powerful, and its niche as a revenge killer is heavily contended with Deoxys-S and stacking priority users on a team.
Dragonite doesn't really fit in with all the other A tier Pokemon. It faces a 4MSS scenario of choosing between hitting Skarmory, Aegislash, or faster revenge killers as targets to beat. Dragonite's power is not very immediate either unlike other Dragons or sweepers, since his main STAB is now a measly 80 base power and it is very slow. You also have high pressure to keep multiscale intact, since if it isn't having enough health to set up DD and sweep will not happen. However its powerful Extremespeed, especially behind a CB or DD, is a great tool to take down a lot of the offensive teams in the metagame.
Tentacruel is a pretty bad option to spin in this meta because it's entire strategy for Aegislash is to pray it gets the burn with Scald. It no longer has the recovery of rain behind it, so it is no longer "immune" to Jellicent's Will-o-Wisp wearing it down. Tentacruel can't get past Trevnant or Gourgeist at all. Celebi provides a lot of switch-in oppurtunities to the most powerful and used offensive threats in the game: Charizard, Genesect, Mega-Pinsir, Latios, Aegislash, Talonflame, Bisharp, Tyranitar, etc. So while providing all these free switchins it doesn't really cover the offensive threats any better than competing Pokemon do. It isn't gen 5 anymore where 100% accurate burning hydro pumps are flying everywhere (rain scald q.q)
Liepard because it uses a strategy that is entirely based on luck to win. You are just going for a 50% coinflip. If you think swag play should be used as a legitimate strategy, screw you lol
Moved up:
Galvantula B+ or A- Rank
Mega-Medicham A- Rank
Mega-Manectric A- Rank
Galvantula has distinguished itself as the best dedicated Sticky Web user because it has a good amount of power behind it + good speed to reapply sticky web mid-game if necessary. Sticky Web is really just that good in an offensive of a meta as this one to warrant Galvantula being moved that much higher.
Mega Medicham is a really fearsome attacker that demolishes most defensive teams without Aegislash. While priority Bullet Punch is really nice to find an opportunity to mega-evolve, having a third coverage move really makes you unstoppable by anything slower than you. Nothing can take the combination of HJK, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Zen Headbutt outside of Aegislash. The speed issue is really overplayed on Mega-Medicham, base 100 is a completely capable speed tier. I find Bullet Punch and especially Fake Out aren't buying you anything really in the speed department outside of picking up a kill on a weakened Lati@s. Note you can tank a hit from Terrakion since you resist its STAB's.
Mega-Manetric has really surprised me of how stellar of a check it can be to a lot of offensive threats out there. Intimidate + high speed, enough to outrun Adamant DD dragonite and gyarados, means it can check a decent amount of sweepers. Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, Gyarados, Talonflame, Scizor, Manaphy, Shift Gear Gene etc. Manetric's expanded coverage with Flamethrower / Overheat against Grass-types and Steel-types really distinguishes it from other Electric-types, since certain Grass-types (cough ferrothorn) can't feel safe even with the Hidden Power nerf.
I may not have spotted it since after 16 pages of facts, crap and other stuff I started skimming but why downgrade Infernape to a C+.
Based on the explanation of the tiers I say that a "B" Rank is pretty accurate of a pokémon with Atk/SpA/Spe splits 104/104/108. Allowing for it to be either Physical, Special or Mixed with any of the sets possessing enough power to be a wall breaker.
Can we stop with unanimous statements like this about past arguments that aren't even remotely true? And that goes double for people who keep feeling the need to be the ones to provide some kind of "updated" list of the past 10 pages or whatever (which is usually chock full of complete inaccuracies)
Mega Mawile is slow and weak to the two most common attacks of the meta. It's suspectible to burns (moreso than others due to its super low speed), uses the mega slot, has an annoying 90% accuracy for a relatively weak base power move, and it has unreliable un-STAB priority. Look at how good the stuff in A+ is and then look at Mega-Mawile. It's fine where it is at A rank.
Yeah, stop making generalized statements that aren't true. Mega Mawile is good but not one of the best Pokemon in OU, as are the Pokemon in S and A+ rank. It has several downsides, such as being too fucking slow and weak to two of the most common attacking types (Fire and Ground). Also, while it's definitely strong, it's in no way unwallable or as immediately threatening as monsters such as Mega Char Y and Mega Lucario. It has some great popular checks, such as Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, BU Talonflame, and Heatran, all of which are very popular Pokemon. Finally, it has the opportunity cost of occupying your Mega Slot, which is not a small thing when you have competition with beasts such as Mega Char Y, X, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Lucario. Mega Mawile is fine in A rank.
Also, Mr. Mime and regular Mawile should both be in D rank, for their significant niche in full Baton Pass teams.
In fact, looking through the A, A+, and S ranks, I can't see a single thing that Mega-Mawile can set up on except maybe Tyranitar lacking Fire Blast. Mega-Mawile might be better suited to A- rank
Yeah, stop making generalized statements that aren't true. Mega Mawile is good but not one of the best Pokemon in OU, as are the Pokemon in S and A+ rank. It has several downsides, such as being too fucking slow and weak to two of the most common attacking types (Fire and Ground). Also, while it's definitely strong, it's in no way unwallable or as immediately threatening as monsters such as Mega Char Y and Mega Lucario. It has some great popular checks, such as Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, BU Talonflame, and Heatran, all of which are very popular Pokemon. Finally, it has the opportunity cost of occupying your Mega Slot, which is not a small thing when you have competition with beasts such as Mega Char Y, X, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Lucario. Mega Mawile is fine in A rank.
Also, Mr. Mime and regular Mawile should both be in D rank, for their significant niche in full Baton Pass teams.
Totally agree with this assessment... Somewhere in one of these pages, I read the pros and cons of M-Mawile and found it laughable that the person in question didn't include that M-Mawile takes a mega slot.
Not to mention the he listed like 5 cons... which to me... made my argument for leaving M-Mawile at A or even A- Rank. Even though Mawile takes a Mega Space the fact that it get crushed by Fire significantly hinders it as Talonflame and Heatran probably consitute nearly 90% or more of the current ladders fire Pokémon.
Can't make a mon that suspectible to these two PROLIFIC COUNTERS as A+rank. Just can't.
