Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Ruffles]

My opinions:
• Quagsire had no niche concerning Mega Luke, as it was always 2HKO'd. It's better now, as no physical pokemon without grass moves can kill it, ever. It doesn't just wall the three pokemon you mentioned. I think it's better now, and should be C+.
• Hippowdon got recked by mega Lucario. I think it's better now, as do a lot of people, and I'd actually push for A-.
• Same goes for gourgeist. It was never a true counter, as +2 Dark pulse demolished it. It's main problem is still Talonflame, so I think it should stay.
• Skarmory was also slaughtered by mega luke, 2HKO'd everytime (due to sturdy), while not really able to do much. I think it's better now, but still worthy of A-.

I agree with everything else, especially with your "will be be better off" category. Ttar is much better now, and I think is definitely worth A+.

Really? Well that's my bad, in that case definitely Quag for C+
Yeah sorry about that. Hippo should go for A-. Good point.
Nah, Gourgiest was a super good counter for Physical luc, I do agree it should stay though.
Yup another good point about skarmory.

Hippo, Skarm, and Zapdos definitely should not be dropping in fact hippo actually benefits from the changes as it no longer has to worry about genesect everywhere ruining its day the same goes for skarm. In all honesty they don't lose much from Luke going as they couldn't switch in on him anyways (nothing could) and as such were only shaky checks for him (he really had nothing but shaky checks sans defensive Gyara).
Moltres actually loses out as checking mega Luke when rocks were gone and no prior damage and a free switch in was one of its only niches (and not a very good one at that).
Krookodile and Normal Luke are fine where they are as Krook is still outclassed and normal Lucario just isn't that good this gen ( might drop to UU now)

I do agree on Ttar for A+

Crap, n00b forgot Zapdos can defog. Keep it.
Regardless, physically defensive always countered when rocks weren't up. Still standing to my point on it being pushed.
Krookodile definitely should go up IMO, as Gene and Mega Luc stopped it really hard. Luc has no more competition, no Gene is also better. I think it is solid B.

Skarmory, Chesnaught, Quagsire and Hippowdown were not able to wall Luke, they didn't really lose any niches. If anything they're even better.

Gourgiest lost to special version. Zapdos' typing is still very handy for a lot of other threats.

True on that. Chesnuaght max HP max Defense was able to counter Physical Luc IIRC though.

EDIT:

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 180-212 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 254-302 (90.3 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

That + Spiky shield KOs

True.

1- Physically defensive Zapdos: So probably should go from B+ --> B
I disagree. It's still a wonderful defog user, and has a very unique typing that gives it an edge on stuff like Scizor, which will be cropping up with the recent bans.
2- Skarmory, still walls physical sweepers, but just not as good as when mega luc was around, A- ---> B+
Skarmory was never really a counter to Lucario in the first place, considering it was 2HKO'd by CC. It's A- because it is both a defog user and hazard setter.
3- Physically defensive Hippowdon: The main reason of it's niche is walling common physical sweepers such as Talonflame and Physical Mega Luc, B+ ---> B
If anything, Hippowdon should go UP. It's still got amazing bulk and acess to Sand Stream and now it doesn't have to worry about Special Luke.

Again true
true
true

For some reason I thought Hippowdown, Skarmory, and Quag were able to wall Mega Luc, that's my bad.

 

[Shroomisaur]

True on that. Chesnuaght max HP max Defense was able to counter Physical Luc IIRC though..

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 356-420 (93.6 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

One of the many examples of why he's gone now.

Anyway, I think some people are going about this in the wrong way. Stop saying arbitrary things like "this Pokemon probably likes MegaLuke gone so +1 rank" or "this Pokemon probably lost a niche so -1". We're supposed to be ranking them based on how viable they are in the metagame, so go test them and see how useful they are, instead of just guesstimating how much more/less viable they will be from these changes.

 

[Giometry]

A List of beneficiaries from Genesect ban: Garchomp, Landorus I/T, Gengar, Mandibuzz, Keldeo, Greninja, Excadrill, Thundurus I, Tornadus T, Gyarados, Jellicent, Celebi, Jirachi, Drafgonite, Noivern, Donphan (Oh God please don't start again), Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Scizor, Forretress, Espeon, Alakazam, Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Charizard, Pinsir, Slowbro, Staraptor, Normal Venusaur, Lucario, Blastoise, Zapdos, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Chesnaught, Salamence, Ampharos, Absol, Politoed, Togekiss, Clefable, Azumarill, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Kyurem Black, Zygarde, Gardevoir, Manaphy, Aegislash, Deoxys D, Mawile, Tyranitar, Mew, Metagross, Gliscor, Diggersby

Benefitting from Mega Lucario Ban: The entire metagame except moltres and physically defensive gyarados.
Note that these are those who receive any benefit this does not mean their ranks should change it is just a list so people know where to start in thinking about viability changes due to the bans
Lets Discuss

 

[Aragorn the King]

Nah, Gourgiest was a super good counter for Physical luc, I do agree it should stay though.

Gourgeist was a great counter for physical Lucario, if, when facing it, you assume it's physical and stay in. If it is, you win, but if if it's not your whole team would get swept by a +3 special Mega lucario. Same goes if you assume it's special, switch in your special wall, and have it be physical. Then you end up with a +3 physical Mega lucario against Gourgeist, who can't handle a +3 crunch.

Anyway, I just sound like I'm repeating my arguments of why Lucario should've been banned. Sorry.

A List of beneficiaries from Genesect ban: Garchomp, Landorus I/T, Gengar, Mandibuzz, Keldeo, Greninja, Excadrill, Thundurus I, Tornadus T, Gyarados, Jellicent, Celebi, Jirachi, Drafgonite, Noivern, Donphan (Oh God please don't start again), Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Scizor, Forretress, Espeon, Alakazam, Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Haxorus, Charizard, Pinsir, Slowbro, Staraptor, Normal Venusaur, Lucario, Blastoise, Zapdos, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Chesnaught, Salamence, Ampharos, Absol, Politoed, Togekiss, Clefable, Azumarill, Terrakion, Mamoswine, Kyurem Black, Zygarde

Benefitting from Mega Lucario Ban: The entire metagame except moltres and physically defensive gyarados

Of course right when I was creating a list of all potential promotions, with sprites, you post that. Oh well :(
Should I still do it, or do you think its too early?

 

[Ropeburn]

Of course right when I was creating a list of all potential promotions, with sprites, you post that. Oh well :(
Should I still do it, or do you think its too early?

It wouldn't hurt. It might give us a better idea of what pokemon to start focusing on in testing.

 

[Giometry]

Gourgeist was a great counter for physical Lucario, if, when facing it, you assume it's physical and stay in. If it is, you win, but if if it's not your whole team would get swept by a +3 special Mega lucario. Same goes if you assume it's special, switch in your special wall, and have it be physical. Then you end up with a +3 physical Mega lucario against Gourgeist, who can't handle a +3 crunch.

Anyway, I just sound like I'm repeating my arguments of why Lucario should've been banned. Sorry.


Of course right when I was creating a list of all potential promotions, with sprites, you post that. Oh well :(
Should I still do it, or do you think its too early?

Go ahead I wasn't finished with my list anyway so by all means.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Go ahead I wasn't finished with my list anyway so by all means.

Funny, as it'll probably include every pokemon in existence. I'll start off with the ones lower on the viability list, and only include ones that will severely improve.

 

[Giometry]

Funny, as it'll probably include every pokemon in existence. I'll start off with the ones lower on the viability list.

Lol so true but in all honesty now that I think about it genesect really oppressed a ton of the meta game I mean almost everything loses one on one against some genesect set.
Literally everything lost 1 v 1 against one of the mega lucario sets

 

[Lcs865]

Lol so true but in all honesty now that I think about it genesect really oppressed a ton of the meta game I mean almost everything loses one on one against some genesect set.
Literally everything lost 1 v 1 against one of the mega lucario sets

And everything Genesect couldn't win against in it's situation got hit with a U-Turn

 

[Aragorn the King]

Go ahead I wasn't finished with my list anyway so by all means.

Here's a short list so far. Discussion on these pokemon is highly encouraged:

Celebi: It got demolished by +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns from Genesect. Its defensive capabilities have improved, as well as offensive, as two pokemon that resisted its STAB are now gone. C+ ---> B-/B

Quagsire: With the one non-grass physical attacker that it couldn't check out of the way, M-Lucario, Quagsire has gotten better defensively. C ---> C+/B-

Hippowdon: The hippo has always been awesome defensively, but two things held it back: STAB from M-Lucario and ice beams from genesect. Now those aren't relevant, so he can wall so much more. B+ -----> A-

Slowbro: Slowbro, like Hippowdon, is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest B ------> B+

Slowking: Like its bro, Slowking is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest C- ------> C+

Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt used to find it very hard to deal with T-bolts and Uturns from genesect and fighting moves from M-lucario. C+ -------> B-

Alakazam: These descriptions are getting very repetitious. I'll just say a rating from now on if I feel the reasoning is obvious. B -----> B+

Mega Tyranitar: A -----> A+

Wobbufett: C+ --------> B

Tyranitar: A -----> A+

Cresselia: Unranked -----> C

Meloetta: C- -------> C

Delphox: Unranked ------> C-

Victini: Unranked ------> C+

Xatu: Unranked ------> C+

Mega Gardevoir: B+ --------> A-

Gardevoir: C+ ----------> B-

Sharpedo: Arguments to drop this, citing priority, were strong. But, with the two strongest priority users gone, I'd keep it where it is. B- ------> B-

Mega Absol: B- ------> B/B+

Espeon: C+ ------> B-

Absol: Unranked --------> D

Liepard: Does the same thing as Klefki, and isn't ruined by U-turns AS much now that Genesect is gone. C- ------> Unranked -------> D

Mega Medicham: B+ --------> A-

Lucario: Now it has no competition from its mega form. B- -------> B

Tornadus Therian: It no longer has to compete with Genesect as a pivot. It also won't get recked by Ice Beams/Thunderbolts from Genesect. B ------> B+

 

[TheGingerbreadMan]

It's the recovery that does it. Banette is very easy to wear down, as opposed to Sableye who can potentially last forever with Prankster Recover. The offensive presence is a decent bonus, but given that Sableye doesn't care how hard it hits, it's not really that important a plus over Sableye (anyway, Banette's best STAB is only 70 BP). The only plus really worth mentioning about Mega Banete is Prankster Destiny Bond, which is a helpful emergency revenge kill, but requires Banette to have already Mega-Evolved (unless it's using Protect).

To recap, Prankster Destiny bond is the only good reason to use Banette and it's not a particularly convincing one, hence the "not very effective in the metagame" classification.

If you don't mind, I do have something to say about Mega Banette. Your reason is definitely right, that the lack of recovery leaves it partially outclassed by Sableye as a Prankster Pokemon; however, its role is actually different from Sableye's. Sableye is meant to stall and interrupt threats by living. Mega Banette is designed to trade with the biggest offensive threat on the opposing team with Destiny Bond. In other words, it's meant to die. I consider it a Mega Trader. I use it to take down my opponent's mega evolution, unless it's Scizor or Trick Room Abomasnow (priority). I know this because I have one. In fact, it was the second pokemon I ever IV bred, and it's still on my team right now while I breed more pokemon.

My point is I know this Pokemon. This Mega is threatening and more than effective enough to be above D rank. In tandum with its Prankster ability, it's Attack also says something. With the buff to Ghost - only two types resist/take no damage from this type - Shadow Sneak is as effective as ever, especially as Mega Banette has the highest unboosted Shadow Sneak in the game, only rivaled by the more universal Aegislash (I do have to say for my case that this again has a different role). Let me show you: You switch into Banette, use Shadow Sneak and Mega Evolve against a pokemon that will either die or switch out because of the threat of Shadow Sneak. Now you're set to cast Will-o-wisp, Taunt or Destiny Bond. Mega Banette is incredibly effective once you successfully Mega Evolve it, which is not as hard as most people would think given the right moveset. It burns pokemon, damages pokemon, and then before it dies you use priority Destiny Bond. And if it doesn't die that turn, if your opponent is naturally faster, you use Phantom Force or Knock Off to give an extra turn to Destiny Bond (Turn 1: Banette - Destiny Bond, then Opponent - move; Turn 2: Opponent -Attack, then Banette - Phantom Force). If this happens, your opponent either takes massive damage from Knock Off, risks dying from Phantom Force or is forced to switch out.

With the combination of attack and priority, Mega Banette is its own pokemon and has a role to remove the most threatening pokemon on the team through Prankster Destiny Bond, in most cases being the opposing Mega Pokemon. In addition, it works as a spinblocker and is immune to Extremespeed and Mach Punch that would otherwise tear it apart. I do understand that it isn't effective against opposing priority, such as Bullet Punch, and that it becomes effectively useless if it becomes burned, or even poisoned, when you lack Heal Bell. I get it, it has crippling flaws and is rather predictable. The C tier is an accurate place for it. Though since it can hold its own in OU and its niche is not tight (by tight I mean usually outclassed and considered later in the ladder - think Donphan), D is not the tier to place this in. The only reason why I would think this pokemon would be in the D tier would be because others want to use other Mega Evolutions. I can understand how people would think of this as a valid reason, but I don't think it's enough.

By the way, if I'm coming across as negative or hateful in anyway towards you, I do apologize. I don't mean to sound that way. I just want to advocate for Mega Banette. Absolutely nothing personal against you at all.

Edit: please ignore the attached file. I have no idea how it got there.

 

[Aragorn the King]

If you don't mind, I do have something to say about Mega Banette. Your reason is definitely right, that the lack of recovery leaves it partially outclassed by Sableye as a Prankster Pokemon; however, its role is actually different from Sableye's. Sableye is meant to stall and interrupt threats by living. Mega Banette is designed to trade with the biggest offensive threat on the opposing team with Destiny Bond. In other words, it's meant to die. I consider it a Mega Trader. I use it to take down my opponent's mega evolution, unless it's Scizor or Trick Room Abomasnow (priority). I know this because I have one. In fact, it was the second pokemon I ever IV bred, and it's still on my team right now while I breed more pokemon.

My point is I know this Pokemon. This Mega is threatening and more than effective enough to be above D rank. In tandum with its Prankster ability, it's Attack also says something. With the buff to Ghost - only two types resist/take no damage from this type - Shadow Sneak is as effective as ever, especially as Mega Banette has the highest unboosted Shadow Sneak in the game, only rivaled by the more universal Aegislash (I do have to say for my case that this again has a different role). Let me show you: You switch into Banette, use Shadow Sneak and Mega Evolve against a pokemon that will either die or switch out because of the threat of Shadow Sneak. Now you're set to cast Will-o-wisp, Taunt or Destiny Bond. Mega Banette is incredibly effective once you successfully Mega Evolve it, which is not as hard as most people would think given the right moveset. It burns pokemon, damages pokemon, and then before it dies you use priority Destiny Bond. And if it doesn't die that turn, if your opponent is naturally faster, you use Phantom Force or Knock Off to give an extra turn to Destiny Bond (Turn 1: Banette - Destiny Bond, then Opponent - move; Turn 2: Opponent -Attack, then Banette - Phantom Force). If this happens, your opponent either takes massive damage from Knock Off, risks dying from Phantom Force or is forced to switch out.

With the combination of attack and priority, Mega Banette is its own pokemon and has a role to remove the most threatening pokemon on the team through Prankster Destiny Bond, in most cases being the opposing Mega Pokemon. In addition, it works as a spinblocker and is immune to Extremespeed and Mach Punch that would otherwise tear it apart. I do understand that it isn't effective against opposing priority, such as Bullet Punch, and that it becomes effectively useless if it becomes burned, or even poisoned, when you lack Heal Bell. I get it, it has crippling flaws and is rather predictable. The C tier is an accurate place for it. Though since it can hold its own in OU and its niche is not tight (by tight I mean usually outclassed and considered later in the ladder - think Donphan), D is not the tier to place this in. The only reason why I would think this pokemon would be in the D tier would be because others want to use other Mega Evolutions. I can understand how people would think of this as a valid reason, but I don't think it's enough.

By the way, if I'm coming across as negative or hateful in anyway towards you, I do apologize. I don't mean to sound that way. I just want to advocate for Mega Banette. Absolutely nothing personal against you at all.

Edit: please ignore the attached file. I have no idea how it got there.

Thanks, I wanted to say that a while ago, but just forgot. Would you agree C- or C is a better place for it?

 

[TheGingerbreadMan]

Thanks, I wanted to say that a while ago, but just forgot. Would you agree C- or C is a better place for it?

Definitely one of those two. I'll go with C because it is threatening. C+ if possible, but I know it's a stretch.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Here's a short list so far. Discussion on these pokemon is highly encouraged:

Celebi: It got demolished by +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns from Genesect. Its defensive capabilities have improved, as well as offensive, as two pokemon that resisted its STAB are now gone. C+ ---> B-/B

Quagsire: With the one non-grass physical attacker that it couldn't check out of the way, M-Lucario, Quagsire has gotten better defensively. C ---> C+/B-

Hippowdon: The hippo has always been awesome defensively, but two things held it back: STAB from M-Lucario and ice beams from genesect. Now those aren't relevant, so he can wall so much more. B+ -----> A-

Slowbro: Slowbro, like Hippowdon, is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest B ------> B+

Slowking: Like its bro, Slowking is a great defensive choice. But, +2 Crunches and Dark Pulses from -M Lucario and +1 Uturns and Thundurbolts from Genesect were very hard to take. Now, with none of those existing, I'd suggest C- ------> C+

Crawdaunt: Crawdaunt used to find it very hard to deal with T-bolts and Uturns from genesect and fighting moves from M-lucario. C+ -------> B-

Alakazam: These descriptions are getting very repetitious. I'll just say a rating from now on if I feel the reasoning is obvious. B -----> B+

Mega Tyranitar: A -----> A+

Tyranitar: A -----> A+

Cresselia: Unranked -----> C

Meloetta: C- -------> C

Delphox: Unranked ------> C-

Victini: Unranked ------> C+

Mega Gardevoir: B+ --------> A-

Gardevoir: C+ ----------> B-

Sharpedo: Arguments to drop this, citing priority, were strong. But, with the two strongest priority users gone, I'd keep it where it is. B- ------> B-

Mega Absol: B- ------> B/B+

Absol: Unranked --------> D

Liepard: Does the same thing as Klefki, and isn't ruined by U-turns AS much now that Genesect is gone. C- ------> Unranked -------> D

Mega Medicham: B+ --------> A-

Lucario: Now it has no competition from its mega form. B- -------> B

Tornadus Therian: It no longer has to compete with Genesect as a pivot. It also won't get recked by Ice Beams/Thunderbolts from Genesect. B ------> A-

Since I can't respond to all of this, I'll go with just a few:
-Crawdaunt Alakazam, and Sharpedo (which has other issues too) get KO'd by so much stuff that losing two (Lucario and Genesect) is barely going to make a difference.

-Non-mega Absol is so barely worth using that I wouldn't even bother putting it in D

-Celebi to B- I can agree with, losing out on the biggest U-Turn spammer is a huge plus for her

-Hippowdon should really be moving up anyway, but just the fact that it gets KO'd by Mega Lucario isn't a huge reason to move it one way or the other (so many things are KO'd by Mega Luke that it's barely even a downside to a pokemon anymore).

If you don't mind, I do have something to say about Mega Banette. Your reason is definitely right, that the lack of recovery leaves it partially outclassed by Sableye as a Prankster Pokemon; however, its role is actually different from Sableye's. Sableye is meant to stall and interrupt threats by living. Mega Banette is designed to trade with the biggest offensive threat on the opposing team with Destiny Bond. In other words, it's meant to die. I consider it a Mega Trader. I use it to take down my opponent's mega evolution, unless it's Scizor or Trick Room Abomasnow (priority). I know this because I have one. In fact, it was the second pokemon I ever IV bred, and it's still on my team right now while I breed more pokemon.

My point is I know this Pokemon. This Mega is threatening and more than effective enough to be above D rank. In tandum with its Prankster ability, it's Attack also says something. With the buff to Ghost - only two types resist/take no damage from this type - Shadow Sneak is as effective as ever, especially as Mega Banette has the highest unboosted Shadow Sneak in the game, only rivaled by the more universal Aegislash (I do have to say for my case that this again has a different role). Let me show you: You switch into Banette, use Shadow Sneak and Mega Evolve against a pokemon that will either die or switch out because of the threat of Shadow Sneak. Now you're set to cast Will-o-wisp, Taunt or Destiny Bond. Mega Banette is incredibly effective once you successfully Mega Evolve it, which is not as hard as most people would think given the right moveset. It burns pokemon, damages pokemon, and then before it dies you use priority Destiny Bond. And if it doesn't die that turn, if your opponent is naturally faster, you use Phantom Force or Knock Off to give an extra turn to Destiny Bond (Turn 1: Banette - Destiny Bond, then Opponent - move; Turn 2: Opponent -Attack, then Banette - Phantom Force). If this happens, your opponent either takes massive damage from Knock Off, risks dying from Phantom Force or is forced to switch out.

With the combination of attack and priority, Mega Banette is its own pokemon and has a role to remove the most threatening pokemon on the team through Prankster Destiny Bond, in most cases being the opposing Mega Pokemon. In addition, it works as a spinblocker and is immune to Extremespeed and Mach Punch that would otherwise tear it apart. I do understand that it isn't effective against opposing priority, such as Bullet Punch, and that it becomes effectively useless if it becomes burned, or even poisoned, when you lack Heal Bell. I get it, it has crippling flaws and is rather predictable. The C tier is an accurate place for it. Though since it can hold its own in OU and its niche is not tight (by tight I mean usually outclassed and considered later in the ladder - think Donphan), D is not the tier to place this in. The only reason why I would think this pokemon would be in the D tier would be because others want to use other Mega Evolutions. I can understand how people would think of this as a valid reason, but I don't think it's enough.

By the way, if I'm coming across as negative or hateful in anyway towards you, I do apologize. I don't mean to sound that way. I just want to advocate for Mega Banette. Absolutely nothing personal against you at all.

Edit: please ignore the attached file. I have no idea how it got there.

Um I'm not sure why you were so apologetic at the end, this is one of the most non-confrontational replies I've ever gotten (I definitely don't consider a respectful disagreement to be "hateful" lol). Anyway those are solid arguments, it sounds like I was underestimating the usefulness of Prankster Destiny Bond. The ability to force a trade is definitely great, and if it's as easy as you say to get it mega evolved, it's a good emergency check (kinda like Sash Alakazam) to sweepers and stuff.

 

[Lcs865]

Thanks, I wanted to say that a while ago, but just forgot. Would you agree C- or C is a better place for it?

The thing about Mega Banette is that it is so close to being great at it's possible roles: Mega Banette lacks the offensive coverage (Physically that is) and speed to be an efficient physical sweeper, while being a defensive liability due to not having prankster first turn, so it is forced to run a hybrid of the two. If either of those conditions were met, Mega Banette would have great potential within the metagame, but unfortunately these aren't the case.
For the aforementioned reasons, anything above C- is pushing it

 

[Aragorn the King]

Since I can't respond to all of this, I'll go with just a few:
-Crawdaunt Alakazam, and Sharpedo (which has other issues too) get KO'd by so much stuff that losing two (Lucario and Genesect) is barely going to make a difference.

-Non-mega Absol is so barely worth using that I wouldn't even bother putting it in D

-Celebi to B- I can agree with, losing out on the biggest U-Turn spammer is a huge plus for her

-Hippowdon should really be moving up anyway, but just the fact that it gets KO'd by Mega Lucario isn't a huge reason to move it one way or the other (so many things are KO'd by Mega Luke that it's barely even a downside to a pokemon anymore).


Um I'm not sure why you were so apologetic at the end, this is one of the most non-confrontational replies I've ever gotten (I definitely don't consider a respectful disagreement to be "hateful" lol). Anyway those are solid arguments, it sounds like I was underestimating the usefulness of Prankster Destiny Bond. The ability to force a trade is definitely great, and if it's as easy as you say to get it mega evolved, it's a good emergency check (kinda like Sash Alakazam) to sweepers and stuff.

With regards to Absol, it does have a niche in getting Super Luck + Scope Lens + 5 Critical Hit Moves to chose from. This effectively gives it a choice band, while able to switch moves and ignore defense boosts. It isn't great, but it actually does work.

And max HP crawdaunt has okay physical bulk, so I'd still argue for that one. But I guess you are right about Alakazam.

 

[TheGingerbreadMan]

Um I'm not sure why you were so apologetic at the end, this is one of the most non-confrontational replies I've ever gotten (I definitely don't consider a respectful disagreement to be "hateful" lol). Anyway those are solid arguments, it sounds like I was underestimating the usefulness of Prankster Destiny Bond. The ability to force a trade is definitely great, and if it's as easy as you say to get it mega evolved, it's a good emergency check (kinda like Sash Alakazam) to sweepers and stuff.

Just so I didn't come across as a jerk. I wrote this passionately. That's why. Glad it turned out well.

The thing about Mega Banette is that it is so close to being great at it's possible roles: Mega Banette lacks the offensive coverage (Physically that is) and speed to be an efficient physical sweeper, while being a defensive liability due to not having prankster first turn, so it is forced to run a hybrid of the two. If either of those conditions were met, Mega Banette would have great potential within the metagame, but unfortunately these aren't the case.
For the aforementioned reasons, anything above C- is pushing it

I'm totally fine with it being in C-, but it's not a sweeper at all. It's support. Let me show you my moveset:

Banette @ Banettite
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Frisk/Prankster
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/ 4 Def
Nature: Adamant
-Phantom Force/Knock Off
-Shadow Sneak
-Will-o-Wisp
-Destiny Bond

Yeah, it doesn't have taunt. Don't comment about that. Phantom Force and Shadow Sneak are meant to arrange priority order. Phantom Force is a move that is used after Destiny Bond against a normally faster pokemon such as Garchomp. You use priority Destiny Bond, the Garchomp does something. Assuming it's still there, if it did not finish Banette off, then you select Phantom Force. Now Garchomp makes the first move, and this gives you the chance to pull off a strong Phantom Force attack. One Destiny Bond, two chances to trade. Shadow Sneak is meant to kill a pokemon in the red rather than use Destiny Bond or Will-o-Wisp. Priority alone is enough for the support. These moves are for the utility of Banette itself, not coverage. I get it, unusual pokemon, kind of a hybrid. But it's not outclassed, it's niched, and one that no other pokemon has or can take a piece of and use it effectively (again, like Donphan - Hippowdon's a better wall, Excadrill is a faster and more powerful spinner).
Let me reiterate that I do use this Pokemon and know that it serves me well. I can't just say it's ineffective in the metagame when I use it myself intelligently. I still say C if possible, but if I must, I'll take C-.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

With regards to Absol, it does have a niche in getting Super Luck + Scope Lens + 5 Critical Hit Moves to chose from. This effectively gives it a choice band, while able to switch moves and ignore defense boosts. It isn't great, but it actually does work.

And max HP crawdaunt has okay physical bulk, so I'd still argue for that one. But I guess you are right about Alakazam.

Huh, that Absol set actually sounds kinda interesting. I didn't know it could do that, or I wouldn't have discounted it so quickly. With that niche D actually sounds fine for it.

Crawdaunt has okay physical bulk, but its general frailty and bad defensive typing are what held it back before and continue to hold it back now. The loss of two things that can KO it doesn't matter when 90% of the offensive metagame still kills it. If you want to argue for Crawdaunt moving up regardless of the bans, that's fine, but the bans haven't really made it that much better.

Just so I didn't come across as a jerk. I wrote this passionately. That's why. Glad it turned out well.

I'm totally fine with it being in C-, but it's not a sweeper at all. It's support. Let me show you my moveset:

Banette @ Banettite
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Frisk/Prankster
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/ 4 Def
Nature: Adamant
-Phantom Force/Knock Off
-Shadow Sneak
-Will-o-Wisp
-Destiny Bond

Yeah, it doesn't have taunt. Don't comment about that. Phantom Force and Shadow Sneak are meant to arrange priority order. Phantom Force is a move that is used after Destiny Bond against a normally faster pokemon such as Garchomp. You use priority Destiny Bond, the Garchomp does something. Assuming it's still there, if it did not finish Banette off, then you select Phantom Force. Now Garchomp makes the first move, and this gives you the chance to pull off a strong Phantom Force attack. One Destiny Bond, two chances to trade. Shadow Sneak is meant to kill a pokemon in the red rather than use Destiny Bond or Will-o-Wisp. Priority alone is enough for the support. These moves are for the utility of Banette itself, not coverage. I get it, unusual pokemon, kind of a hybrid. But it's not outclassed, it's niched, and one that no other pokemon has or can take a piece of and use it effectively (again, like Donphan - Hippowdon's a better wall, Excadrill is a faster and more powerful spinner).
Let me reiterate that I do use this Pokemon and know that it serves me well. I can't just say it's ineffective in the metagame when I use it myself intelligently. I still say C if possible, but if I must, I'll take C-.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you used Destiny Bond the first turn and Garchomp didn't KO you (let's say it went for Swords Dance), there isn't anything stopping it from KOing you before you get Phantom Force off (unless Destiny Bond lasts longer than I remember). So unless you're sure of a switch, it would be best to go for a second priority Destiny Bond. If you are sure of a switch, I would think that Knock Off would be a better option since it's practically guaranteed to be obnoxious, while Phantom Force gives the opponent a free turn to switch into a physical wall or Normal type.
That said, apart from Phantom Force this set looks perfectly usable and I would definitely support C- and maybe C.

 

[Lcs865]

Just so I didn't come across as a jerk. I wrote this passionately. That's why. Glad it turned out well.

I'm totally fine with it being in C-, but it's not a sweeper at all. It's support. Let me show you my moveset:

Banette @ Banettite
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Frisk/Prankster
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/ 4 Def
Nature: Adamant
-Phantom Force/Knock Off
-Shadow Sneak
-Will-o-Wisp
-Destiny Bond

.

I acknowledge it isn't a sweeper, but the damn thing would have some potential if it got more coverage. I don't want to begin theorymonning so I'll stop here

 

[TheGingerbreadMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you used Destiny Bond the first turn and Garchomp didn't KO you (let's say it went for Swords Dance), there isn't anything stopping it from KOing you before you get Phantom Force off (unless Destiny Bond lasts longer than I remember). So unless you're sure of a switch, it would be best to go for a second priority Destiny Bond. If you are sure of a switch, I would think that Knock Off would be a better option since it's practically guaranteed to be obnoxious, while Phantom Force gives the opponent a free turn to switch into a physical wall or Normal type.
That said, apart from Phantom Force this set looks perfectly usable and I would definitely support C- and maybe C.

Destiny Bond lasts until you make your next move. That's the beauty of Prankster Destiny Bond. A move that goes first and lasts into the next turn even when you go second with Phantom Force/Knock Off. Going for a second Destiny Bond in this situation is not as practical because it's just a waste of a move and PP. The other one is still in effect.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Huh, that Absol set actually sounds kinda interesting. I didn't know it could do that, or I wouldn't have discounted it so quickly. With that niche D actually sounds fine for it.

Crawdaunt has okay physical bulk, but its general frailty and bad defensive typing are what held it back before and continue to hold it back now. The loss of two things that can KO it doesn't matter when 90% of the offensive metagame still kills it. If you want to argue for Crawdaunt moving up regardless of the bans, that's fine, but the bans haven't really made it that much better.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you used Destiny Bond the first turn and Garchomp didn't KO you (let's say it went for Swords Dance), there isn't anything stopping it from KOing you before you get Phantom Force off (unless Destiny Bond lasts longer than I remember). So unless you're sure of a switch, it would be best to go for a second priority Destiny Bond. If you are sure of a switch, I would think that Knock Off would be a better option since it's practically guaranteed to be obnoxious, while Phantom Force gives the opponent a free turn to switch into a physical wall or Normal type.
That said, apart from Phantom Force this set looks perfectly usable and I would definitely support C- and maybe C.

I believe Destiny Bond lasts until you strike your opponent. So It it Goes

1: Banette: Destiny Bond
2: Garchomp: Swords Dance

3: Garchomp: Earthquake

In this case, both end up dying.

 

[TheGingerbreadMan]

Though Destiny Bond won't work from residual damage (e.g. Burn, Poison, Sandstorm, etc.) It's only when the opposing Pokemon defeats it with an attack. Just want to point that out.

 

[Lcs865]

Here goes nothing

Bisharp for A+/S Rank
With the massive shift in the metagame, Bisharp did nothing but gain. It's premier counter, Mega-Lucario, was banned, and Genesect, a check, was as well. Now, not much is stopping Bisharp from tearing through the entire tier.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Destiny Bond lasts until you make your next move. That's the beauty of Prankster Destiny Bond. A move that goes first and lasts into the next turn even when you go second with Phantom Force/Knock Off. Going for a second Destiny Bond in this situation is not as practical because it's just a waste of a move and PP. The other one is still in effect.

Though Destiny Bond won't work from residual damage (e.g. Burn, Poison, Sandstorm, etc.) It's only when the opposing Pokemon defeats it with an attack. Just want to point that out.

Thanks for clarifying that, it makes a lot more sense now. I'm still pretty sure that Knock Off is way better than Phantom Force, but since the choice of move doesn't really affect its viability I'll stop here.

Here goes nothing

Bisharp for A+/S Rank
With the massive shift in the metagame, Bisharp did nothing but gain. It's premier counter, Mega-Lucario, was banned, and Genesect, a check, was as well. Now, not much is stopping Bisharp from tearing through the entire tier.

As amazing as Bisharp is, Defog blocking is not a huge enough niche imo to get him past A. He can rip through stuff, but can only do so effectively on teams with lots of hazard support, probably a suicide lead. I believe this is what is holding him back from A+, not his checks and counters.

 

[Lcs865]

As amazing as Bisharp is, Defog blocking is not a huge enough niche imo to get him past A. He can rip through stuff, but can only do so effectively on teams with lots of hazard support, probably a suicide lead. I believe this is what is holding him back from A+, not his checks and counters.

Defog blocking isn't all Bisharp does. If a Bisharp gets a chance to SD if you don't have Mach Punch or a premier physical wall you lose, simple as that. Mega Lucario was Majorly holding him back, as a 4x weakness of his being one of the most common things to face limits its capabilities severely