Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Colonial]

Enough talk about our system of separating MEvos. The Uber viability ranking thread can do whatever they want, this is not an argument for this list to do the same. We know the reasons to rank the MEvos seperataly or treat them as the same Pokemon, so if we feel that there is a need to change the system, we will do it. Posts talking about how we should change this system in this thread will get deleted from now on. If you want to present a good reason as to why we should change the system that hasn't been mentioned before, feel free to PM any of the OU mods.

On to the the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks now.

Drop Mega Venusaur to A+

The metagame has reached to a point where it's overprepared for Mega Venusaur, and this means that Mega Venusaur can't wall the majority of the metagame anymore. Mega Venusaur can't wall a single Pokemon from S rank, and the majority of A+ and A rank Pokemon can get past it too. Out of A+ and A rank, Mega Venusaur is a good answer to: Manaphy (without Psychic), Rotom-W, Thundurus, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados (without Ice Fang), Keldeo, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, and that's it. Yeah it can check some more Pokemon in those ranks depending on their movesets (Extrasensory-less Greninja, AV Excadrill, Terrakion without LO or CB), but those Pokemon can at worst 3HKO Mega Venusaur while outspeeding it, or have other means of wearing Mega Venusaur down (U-turn on Greninja). Not only this, but if you are using Mega Venusaur as your answer to Rotom-W, which you most likely will be as Rotom-W is not an easy Pokemon to shut down, chances are that Mega Venusaur will get burned very early in the game. Combine this with potential SR damage, and Mega Venusaur is taking 25% damage minimum every time it switches in, without accounting for Volt Switches from Rotom-W or U-turns from Greninja. Furthermore, Mega Venusaur has pathetic longevity against sand teams, which are better than ever right now, as one of their biggest problems is out of OU (Mega Lucario). For example, Choice Specs Keldeo on a sand team dgaf about Mega Venusaur, as all it has to do is hit it once with Hydro Pump and then it can 2HKO it later, as Mega Venusaur will manage to heal 19% at best with Synthesis after sandstorm damage as you go to a Pokemon that forces it out. This is a huge problem with Mega Venusaur and can't be understated. If you have some Pokemon that are completely shut down by Mega Venusaur in your team (and there are not so many of them out of S and A ranks, aka the best Pokemon in OU), it is not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur to the point where it can't stop those Pokemon. You can use WoW Rotom-W with good SR support, a Volt-turn core with SR support, a sand team, a lure (such as Psychic Manaphy or Nasty Plot Hidden Power Flying Thundurus), or a rain team. Honestly, there are so many ways to get past Mega Venusaur, and you often don't even have to choose one of them as Mega Venusaur fails to wall more than 1-2 Pokemon against most teams. Without Mega Lucario terrorizing OU and Mega Venusaur being one of its most viable checks, Mega Venusaur has no reason to be in S rank.

Promote Rotom-W to S

This is going to be a tough one but let's give it a try. No, Rotom-W doesn't wall the majority of the metagame, and no Rotom-W is not hard to wear down and overwhelm. But Rotom-W is the single best Pokemon in OU when it comes to utility and support (together, not seperately). Remember how Genesect could get an advantageous match-up against most of the metagame and use this to its advantage to start generating momentum and give free switches? Rotom-W is the next best Pokemon at doing this, and while its ability to generate momentum is certainly not at the same level as Genesect's, it makes up for it with the amount of Pokemon it checks. When Rotom-W gets an adantageous match-up, it can either bring in of your Pokemon for free with Volt Switch as the opponent switches out, OHKO/2HKO the incoming Ground-type with Hydro Pump (except from Gastrodon), or cripple the opponent with WoW, which when coupled with future Volt Switch hits and SR, is a very effective way to wear down even the best checks to Rotom-W, such as Mega Venusaur, Latios, and Latias. So no matter what happens, Rotom-W will always be able to do something productive with the switches it forces, even if the opponent has hard counters to it. It will always be able to give immense support by providing free switches to your teammates while spamming a decently powered STAB move or punish the Ground-types that may want to block your Volt Switch. Furthermore, Rotom-W serves as a good check to a multitude of great and common Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir, Heatran, Talonflame, Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Azumarill, Sand Rush Excadrill, Greninja, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Hippowdon, and wins 1 on 1 against even more Pokemon, giving it a plethora of chances to support its team, by either bringing in other Pokemon for free, or wearing down checks and counters of its teammates. How many times have you seen on an analysis the phrase ''Even though powerful, this Pokemon is frail, so Rotom-W is a great partner''? We may have become used to it and think it's not a big deal, but take a moment to think just how many frail but powerful Pokemon rely on Rotom-W's Volt Switch to switch in. Think about how much damage those Pokemon are able to do after Rotom-W brings them in for free. This, right there, is some top notch support, which when combined with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides for a team, makes it worthy of the S rank status.

All the other Pokemon i think are fine where they are.

I have to disagree with your M-Venu argument. One of your main points is that Mega Venusaur can't function well under sand. Thing is, sand is far from common- it's one of the rarest weathers and weather in general is rare right now. Venusaur also has other methods of recovery- leech seed, and giga drain which is super-effective against many sand abusers anyway. A pokemon not fairing well against a single team type, especially one as rare as Sand Offense, is not in my opinion a good enough reason to move it down. Charizard fairs badly against Hyper Offense, for example.

Not to mention...

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 254-300 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Venusaur only does about 35% to Tyranitar, but TTar only does that amount back with Stone Miss so Saur will win, as it outspeeds. It can also use Leech Seed.

Obviously Venusaur vs. sand inducers isn't a situation that will pop up often, but it's something to note.

You also talk about how Mega Venusaur can be worn down. Tell me, how does that argument not apply to every single defensive pokemon in the game- hell, every single pokemon, defensive OR offensive? In fact, Venusaur is harder to wear down then many other pokemon as it has THREE forms of recovery and probably walls anything it is coming in on, so getting off a synthesis is hardly a chore.

To address specific examples: Your Mega Gyarados point is incorrect.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Looks close with Gyarados outspeeding, but because of Synthesis and Giga Drain recovery, it's really not much of a contest.

Also, Psychic Manaphy? Is that seriously a thing? TIL.

I also find it hilarious how you say megasaur can't wall much of A Rank and then name about 9 things it does. And you didn't even name everything it walls: You made the same mistake many others have made any looked mostly at type advantages. Venusaur walls (BAN ME PLEASE) and 2HKOs with 0- Earthquake. Bisharp 3HKOs at best and gets 2HKO'd back with HP Fire, so it'll be a close one... but only if Bisharp is LO. Other variants lose. Scizor can barely scratch Venusaur, having a 2% chance to 4HKO with 252+ U-Turn, while taking over 70% from HP Fire. I've already mentioned Tyranitar. Gengar and Venu wall each other. Hell, Venusaur walls more of A rank then it loses to. Yes it can't deal with all at once, but it's potential ability to is a major factor.


Finally: Saur was never a Megaluke check. It died to special variants. I have never seen Luke come into arguments for Saur's viability before Luke was banned (memory is hazy though... if I'm wrong, feel free to point me to the relevant argument), so I cannot believe that it is being used now to criticize it when it was never used as a mark in it's favor.


I would also like to note that you appear to be thinking of Megasaur as one would a sweeper, with preparations and 1v6 situations. I do not believe that is the optimal way to think of a stall pokemon- No stall pokemon can work alone. Megasaur can't wall things with super-effective STAB, but what wall can? Megasaur needs some support to get rid of counters (but for nothing else!). That may go against that idea that S Ranks should be able to operate alone without team support, but with the current S ranks it's obvious that that particular idea has been abandoned.

Mega Venusaur is the unrivalled best defensive mega. Nothing can even approach it's niche. It cannot wall things that have super-effective STAB against it but everything else it beats. It has a very wide movepool it can tailor to counter almost anything it wants- the only thing it wants that it doesn't have already is a Rock-type attack, and if one would be so desperate one could just run HP Rock.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I also have a problem with the argument that Mega Venusaur can't wall most pokes in S rank. For one, it's just five pokemon which aren't representative whatsoever as far as the tier goes. And two, those five pokemon include Psycho Boost Deoxys-S, Aerilate Frustration Mega Pinsir, a Dragon-type nuke and a Fire-type nuke with Drought. Not really a fair contest. Saying that "it doesn't wall the majority of the metagame" when you're only using S, A+ and A rank as your base also isn't a fair statement as all those ranks combined don't even make up half of the viable pokemon in OU list. That's just twisting statistics into your favor.

 

[BurningFury101]

Time to get busy...

Enough talk about our system of separating MEvos. The Uber viability ranking thread can do whatever they want, this is not an argument for this list to do the same. We know the reasons to rank the MEvos seperataly or treat them as the same Pokemon, so if we feel that there is a need to change the system, we will do it. Posts talking about how we should change this system in this thread will get deleted from now on. If you want to present a good reason as to why we should change the system that hasn't been mentioned before, feel free to PM any of the OU mods.

On to the the Pokemon in S and A+ ranks now.

Drop Mega Venusaur to A+

The metagame has reached to a point where it's overprepared for Mega Venusaur, and this means that Mega Venusaur can't wall the majority of the metagame anymore. Mega Venusaur can't wall a single Pokemon from S rank, and the majority of A+ and A rank Pokemon can get past it too. Out of A+ and A rank, Mega Venusaur is a good answer to: Manaphy (without Psychic), Rotom-W, Thundurus, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados (without Ice Fang), Keldeo, Mandibuzz, Conkeldurr, Mega Mawile, and that's it. Yeah it can check some more Pokemon in those ranks depending on their movesets (Extrasensory-less Greninja, AV Excadrill, Terrakion without LO or CB), but those Pokemon can at worst 3HKO Mega Venusaur while outspeeding it, or have other means of wearing Mega Venusaur down (U-turn on Greninja). Not only this, but if you are using Mega Venusaur as your answer to Rotom-W, which you most likely will be as Rotom-W is not an easy Pokemon to shut down, chances are that Mega Venusaur will get burned very early in the game. Combine this with potential SR damage, and Mega Venusaur is taking 25% damage minimum every time it switches in, without accounting for Volt Switches from Rotom-W or U-turns from Greninja. Furthermore, Mega Venusaur has pathetic longevity against sand teams, which are better than ever right now, as one of their biggest problems is out of OU (Mega Lucario). For example, Choice Specs Keldeo on a sand team dgaf about Mega Venusaur, as all it has to do is hit it once with Hydro Pump and then it can 2HKO it later, as Mega Venusaur will manage to heal 19% at best with Synthesis after sandstorm damage as you go to a Pokemon that forces it out. This is a huge problem with Mega Venusaur and can't be understated. If you have some Pokemon that are completely shut down by Mega Venusaur in your team (and there are not so many of them out of S and A ranks, aka the best Pokemon in OU), it is not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur to the point where it can't stop those Pokemon. You can use WoW Rotom-W with good SR support, a Volt-turn core with SR support, a sand team, a lure (such as Psychic Manaphy or Nasty Plot Hidden Power Flying Thundurus), or a rain team. Honestly, there are so many ways to get past Mega Venusaur, and you often don't even have to choose one of them as Mega Venusaur fails to wall more than 1-2 Pokemon against most teams. Without Mega Lucario terrorizing OU and Mega Venusaur being one of its most viable checks, Mega Venusaur has no reason to be in S rank.

Promote Rotom-W to S

This is going to be a tough one but let's give it a try. No, Rotom-W doesn't wall the majority of the metagame, and no Rotom-W is not hard to wear down and overwhelm. But Rotom-W is the single best Pokemon in OU when it comes to utility and support (together, not seperately). Remember how Genesect could get an advantageous match-up against most of the metagame and use this to its advantage to start generating momentum and give free switches? Rotom-W is the next best Pokemon at doing this, and while its ability to generate momentum is certainly not at the same level as Genesect's, it makes up for it with the amount of Pokemon it checks. When Rotom-W gets an adantageous match-up, it can either bring in of your Pokemon for free with Volt Switch as the opponent switches out, OHKO/2HKO the incoming Ground-type with Hydro Pump (except from Gastrodon), or cripple the opponent with WoW, which when coupled with future Volt Switch hits and SR, is a very effective way to wear down even the best checks to Rotom-W, such as Mega Venusaur, Latios, and Latias. So no matter what happens, Rotom-W will always be able to do something productive with the switches it forces, even if the opponent has hard counters to it. It will always be able to give immense support by providing free switches to your teammates while spamming a decently powered STAB move or punish the Ground-types that may want to block your Volt Switch. Furthermore, Rotom-W serves as a good check to a multitude of great and common Pokemon, such as Mega Pinsir, Heatran, Talonflame, Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Azumarill, Sand Rush Excadrill, Greninja, Mamoswine, Mandibuzz, Scizor, and Hippowdon, and wins 1 on 1 against even more Pokemon, giving it a plethora of chances to support its team, by either bringing in other Pokemon for free, or wearing down checks and counters of its teammates. How many times have you seen on an analysis the phrase ''Even though powerful, this Pokemon is frail, so Rotom-W is a great partner''? We may have become used to it and think it's not a big deal, but take a moment to think just how many frail but powerful Pokemon rely on Rotom-W's Volt Switch to switch in. Think about how much damage those Pokemon are able to do after Rotom-W brings them in for free. This, right there, is some top notch support, which when combined with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides for a team, makes it worthy of the S rank status.

All the other Pokemon i think are fine where they are.

Going to also disagree on your M-Venusaur argument. Your M-Gyarados statement is wrong as shown here:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

With Giga Drain recovery, M-Gyarados has no way to beat M-Venu in a 1v1. Also, Mega Venusaur is almost impossible to bypass without a Super-Effective move other than Ice/Fire, Weather in your favor, or a boost. Look at this calc:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 294-348 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a Choice Banded, Max Attack Talonflame bypassing Thick Fat, yet Mega-Venu survives (although barely). The "Can't Wall anything in S" is completely rigged, considering it's going against Aerilate M-Pinser, A Dragon-Fire Resisting everything it basically does, and a Fire-Flying with Drought. Next up is you say "Mega Venusaur can be worn down". ANY Pokemon can be worn down, whether it's an Arceus or a Bidoof it can be worn down, defeated, whatever.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mega Venusaur should be in S-rank. It's the only mega to use for defensive and stall teams (besides possibly Scizor,) as well as many balanced teams, and the defensive ability it brings to those teams is very valuable. It walls so much stuff, and is able to make really solid cores with things like Heatran and Skarmory.

It's beaten by some S-rank threats but so is a lot of stuff. What counters Mega Pinsir? Skarmory, Zapdos, Rotom-W, Mandibuzz at 100% health and no rocks on the field, that's pretty much it. Y-zard? Blobs, Goodra, Latias, not a whole lot. Aegislash? All I can think of that can counter every single set it can run is Mandibuzz, which loses to Head Smash sets (as rare and questionable as they are.) They're in S-rank because they can sweep significant portions of the metagame, and Venusaur should be S rank but it can wall a significant portion of the metagame, not absolutely every top threat.

 

[Thorhammer]

This sounds a lot like the Aegislash discussion a while ago. Flying and Psychic moves are a lot more common than they used to be, but isn't it worth considering why? If Venusaur is driving foes to use two rather unconventional attack types to muscle past it, isn't that saying something about its importance in the metagame? Now, in the case of things like Pinsir and Deoxys-S, of course they're using their best STABs. But would they be as notable as they are if not for Venusaur defining them as part of a small group of Pokemon capable of smashing the best wall in the game so effectively with their STABs? They've got plenty of other distinctions, for sure, but I think it's safe to say it helps a lot.

Is it enough to keep Venusaur defined as S-rank? I dunno. But I do think it's a factor we need to take a careful look at.

 

[doughboy]

alexwolf I think there are some very real flaws about Rotom-W that prevent it from going up to S rank. First is that Rotom-W just isn't very strong, so it can be taken advantage of by bulkier Pokemon easily. Some Pokemon that abuse Rotom-W's overall weakness include Kyurem-B, SubSD / Lum Berry Garchomp, Wacan Berry Manaphy, Roost Charizard Y, and Suicune. Rotom-W especially without investment will find itself to be a liability in front of a bulkier sweeper. Rotom-W gets a lot of use because it is an easy fix to check a lot of threats in the metagame, it isn't necessarily the exclusive option for an offensive team to check certain threats. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can check a lot of the threats that Rotom-W can (Talonflame, Pinsir, Mawile, etc.).

Also, Rotom-W is a Pokemon that is pretty easy is to overwhelm because it doesn't have reliable recovery. It does not get affected by hazards, but repeated attacks wear it down. This is why bird teams are so popular, because many team rely upon Rotom-W to be a Flying-type check and lose because Rotom-W can not take consistent hard hits throughout the match. Compare it to Latias which can stick around towards the end of games quite easily (and has a fair bit of power behind it). It can only pivot around for so long.

It's an analogous situation to Scizor last generation. Scizor could check a lot of big threats with CB Bullet Punch (TERRAKION) and could get the game back in your hands with U-turn, but it isn't a threat you prepare for like Rain or Keldeo was. It was a convenient way to check a lot of threats in one slot. When Rotom-W is sent out on the field, I don't think "oh damn what am I going to do" compared to when Charizard Y, Pinsir, or Aegislash come out on the field where something is going to get smashed. Or Charizard X potentially getting a DD up. Or Mega-Venusaur being irremovable from the field especially with Leech Seed. The consequence for Rotom-W is much much smaller, it's a Poke that doesn't really have a win condition. Understandably it is a pivot so that isn't its role, but still. A+ rank is a fine rank that is descriptive of its capabilities. S rank is giving it way too much credit.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

This sounds a lot like the Aegislash discussion a while ago. Flying and Psychic moves are a lot more common than they used to be, but isn't it worth considering why? If Venusaur is driving foes to use two rather unconventional attack types to muscle past it, isn't that saying something about its importance in the metagame? Now, in the case of things like Pinsir and Deoxys-S, of course they're using their best STABs. But would they be as notable as they are if not for Venusaur defining them as part of a small group of Pokemon capable of smashing the best wall in the game so effectively with their STABs? They've got plenty of other distinctions, for sure, but I think it's safe to say it helps a lot.

Is it enough to keep Venusaur defined as S-rank? I dunno. But I do think it's a factor we need to take a careful look at.

I think that it's pretty safe to say that Deo-S, Mega Pinsir, Kyube, and Talonflame would be just as common without Mega-Venusaur because they're all absolutely amazing pokemon. However, things like Psyshock on Starmie, Latias and Latios, Psychic Manaphy and Thundurus, and Extrasensory Greninja probably would not - they're using those moves for the sole purpose of KOing Mega-Venusaur, which is a pretty good indication of how important that is. I would agree that the rise of stuff using an extra moveslot to take out Mega-Venusaur should not be used against it, because that only happens because it's effective. However, if stuff like Mega Pinsir rises independently, that would be a strike against it in my opinion.

alexwolf I think there are some very real flaws about Rotom-W that prevent it from going up to S rank. First is that Rotom-W just isn't very strong, so it can be taken advantage of by bulkier Pokemon easily. Some Pokemon that abuse Rotom-W's overall weakness include Kyurem-B, SubSD / Lum Berry Garchomp, Wacan Berry Manaphy, Roost Charizard Y, and Suicune. Rotom-W especially without investment will find itself to be a liability in front of a bulkier sweeper. Rotom-W gets a lot of use because it is an easy fix to check a lot of threats in the metagame, it isn't necessarily the exclusive option for an offensive team to check certain threats. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can check a lot of the threats that Rotom-W can (Talonflame, Pinsir, Mawile, etc.).

Also, Rotom-W is a Pokemon that is pretty easy is to overwhelm because it doesn't have reliable recovery. It does not get affected by hazards, but repeated attacks wear it down. This is why bird teams are so popular, because many team rely upon Rotom-W to be a Flying-type check and lose because Rotom-W can not take consistent hard hits throughout the match. Compare it to Latias which can stick around towards the end of games quite easily (and has a fair bit of power behind it). It can only pivot around for so long.

It's an analogous situation to Scizor last generation. Scizor could check a lot of big threats with CB Bullet Punch (TERRAKION) and could get the game back in your hands with U-turn, but it isn't a threat you prepare for like Rain or Keldeo was. It was a convenient way to check a lot of threats in one slot. When Rotom-W is sent out on the field, I don't think "oh damn what am I going to do" compared to when Charizard Y, Pinsir, or Aegislash come out on the field where something is going to get smashed. Or Charizard X potentially getting a DD up. Or Mega-Venusaur being irremovable from the field especially with Leech Seed. The consequence for Rotom-W is much much smaller, it's a Poke that doesn't really have a win condition. Understandably it is a pivot so that isn't its role, but still. A+ rank is a fine rank that is descriptive of its capabilities. S rank is giving it way too much credit.

This may be due to a lack of skill on my part, but I actually do find myself pretty scared when Rotom-W shows up on the field. There is very little that can comfortably take both a Hydro Pump and a Will-o-Wisp, and when I build my teams specifically to have a good switch-in to Rotom-W (which is often), it just Volt Switches out and steals my momentum. It's not as immediately scary as stuff like Charizard, but it gets way more opportunities to come in and be threatening .

 

[Chou Toshio]

Flying and Psychic moves are a lot more common than they used to be, but isn't it worth considering why? If Venusaur is driving foes to use two rather unconventional attack types to muscle past it, isn't that saying something about its importance in the metagame?

Read the posts up until now properly, and you'll have your answer. Psychic/Flying attacks increasing are ONLY a point AGAINST Mega Venusaur-- the argument you are trying to make has ZERO weight in this discussion. Why?

BECAUSE A+ POKEMON ARE TOP METAGAME THREATS.

"driving foes" to use unconventional moves isn't a quality of S rank threats alone.

The argument isn't about whether Venusaur is good or not-- the argument is about whether it's S or A+. A+ Pokemon are still top threats with huge influence on the meta. It's absolutely natural to prepare or over-prepare for them, and using a coverage move that destroys an A+ defensive threat that thinks it walls you is viable, good strategy.

 

[Baharoth]

Read the posts up until now properly, and you'll have your answer. Psychic/Flying attacks increasing are ONLY a point AGAINST Mega Venusaur-- the argument you are trying to make has ZERO weight in this discussion. Why?

BECAUSE A+ POKEMON ARE TOP METAGAME THREATS.

"driving foes" to use unconventional moves isn't a quality of S rank threats alone.

The argument isn't about whether Venusaur is good or not-- the argument is about whether it's S or A+. A+ Pokemon are still top threats with huge influence on the meta. It's absolutely natural to prepare or over-prepare for them, and using a coverage move that destroys an A+ defensive threat that thinks it walls you is viable, good strategy.

The thing is that a few pages ago the exact same argument was used to demote aegisslash to A+. The meta is overprepared for it, its counters are everywhere so its not as viable as it used to be. When a pokemon forces teams to prepare for it by using things they wouldnt use otherwise thats clearly an argument FOR this pokemon and not against it.

 

[Punchshroom]

When Pokemon start using Psychic / Flying coverage to start dealing with Venusaur, it doesn't really affect the latter's rank: that is what would be expected of the meta as it develops. The problem Venusaur faces is that Psychic and Flying attackers (or just really powerful nukes) have become the greater metagame threats: Deoxys-S, Pinsir, and Charizard are all expected to see an increase in usage, and this can potentially make Venusaur a liability / waste. Venusaur has also lost 2 favorable(?) matchups in the top-notch threats which are Lucario and Genesect. If the meta sees a surge in Ground- and Fire-types and a decrease in the shitton of types that Aegislash resists, we can expect Aegislash to drop in the same fashion, though the fact that Aegislash resists so much popular attacks (and hits back like a muthafucka) means it is likely to stay very relevant in even the most drastic of (realistic) meta shifts.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Baharoth -- Not in the division between A+ or S (save this type of logic for a suspect thread, it's totally flawed here). If they used that argument for Aegi, they're wrong-- players have adapted to mega venu and it's become less viable. Players have adapted to aegi and it's still broke-as-hell. Aegi is S class because it is so damn good. Period.

edit: As Punchshroom said-- if suddenly the metagame was over-prepared for Aegislash, it's viability would be affected. As of right now though-- nah, thing is too ridiculous.

To be honest, I don't think that Rotom-W deserves to be S-tier. S-tier is also used for suspect testing, so think about it this way: could you guys see Rotom-W being suspect tested or even banned to Ubers? I nominate Rotom-W to stay in A+ tier. Also, I nominate M-Venusaur to be demoted to A or A+ tier since it no longer walls the top threats in OU, is easily worn down, and the meta game has adapted to its presence.

By the way, S Rank has nothing to do with suspecting. Zero, nilch, nada. The qualifications for suspecting and banning are completely different and independent from the qualities we use to choose S Rank. Therefore, that part of the S Rank description has been deleted. You can check-- we no longer consider S Rank having anything to do with potentially identifying suspects.


All posters please take note of this to avoid making flawed arguments about the S class.

 

[Bluwing]

Thundurus-I for S-Rank

Thundurus-I is one of the mons that has become even better after the Genesect + Lucarionite ban, simply because it doesn't need to be aware of those extremely powerfull extremespeeds that was running around. So basically why Thundurus-I should be S rank is because it's just so versatile, you can basically choose it's moveset with it's excellent attacking stats to remove whatever pokemon you want removed for one of your sweepers, which makes it extremely unpredictable. This means that you will never know if it's Landorus-T/Gliscor that gets nailed or your Mega Venusaur, and due to it's great attacking stats Superpower nails Tyranitar, the blobs, Excadrill Heatran etc. This basically just makes it such an fearsome wallbreaker, and not only that it also checks faster sweepers, like setup sweepers or naturally fast wallbreakers with Prankster Thunder Wave, which is always going to be game changing. It's also not superfrail either and has the nifty bird resist, immune to electric status and Earthquake is just making it even better. It's also the best offensive check to Manaphy, Zard Y, Talonflame, Pinsir, Zard X (T-Wave), basically anything with Swords/Dragon Dance without Lum Berry which can be extremely crucial as this can win you the game, therefore I think it's more than good enough for S rank.

 

[alexwolf]

I have to disagree with your M-Venu argument. One of your main points is that Mega Venusaur can't function well under sand. Thing is, sand is far from common- it's one of the rarest weathers and weather in general is rare right now. Venusaur also has other methods of recovery- leech seed, and giga drain which is super-effective against many sand abusers anyway. A pokemon not fairing well against a single team type, especially one as rare as Sand Offense, is not in my opinion a good enough reason to move it down. Charizard fairs badly against Hyper Offense, for example.

Not to mention...

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 254-300 (60.4 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Venusaur only does about 35% to Tyranitar, but TTar only does that amount back with Stone Miss so Saur will win, as it outspeeds. It can also use Leech Seed.

Obviously Venusaur vs. sand inducers isn't a situation that will pop up often, but it's something to note.

You also talk about how Mega Venusaur can be worn down. Tell me, how does that argument not apply to every single defensive pokemon in the game- hell, every single pokemon, defensive OR offensive? In fact, Venusaur is harder to wear down then many other pokemon as it has THREE forms of recovery and probably walls anything it is coming in on, so getting off a synthesis is hardly a chore.

To address specific examples: Your Mega Gyarados point is incorrect.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

Looks close with Gyarados outspeeding, but because of Synthesis and Giga Drain recovery, it's really not much of a contest.

Also, Psychic Manaphy? Is that seriously a thing? TIL.

I also find it hilarious how you say megasaur can't wall much of A Rank and then name about 9 things it does. And you didn't even name everything it walls: You made the same mistake many others have made any looked mostly at type advantages. Venusaur walls (BAN ME PLEASE) and 2HKOs with 0- Earthquake. Bisharp 3HKOs at best and gets 2HKO'd back with HP Fire, so it'll be a close one... but only if Bisharp is LO. Other variants lose. Scizor can barely scratch Venusaur, having a 2% chance to 4HKO with 252+ U-Turn, while taking over 70% from HP Fire. I've already mentioned Tyranitar. Gengar and Venu wall each other. Hell, Venusaur walls more of A rank then it loses to. Yes it can't deal with all at once, but it's potential ability to is a major factor.


Finally: Saur was never a Megaluke check. It died to special variants. I have never seen Luke come into arguments for Saur's viability before Luke was banned (memory is hazy though... if I'm wrong, feel free to point me to the relevant argument), so I cannot believe that it is being used now to criticize it when it was never used as a mark in it's favor.


I would also like to note that you appear to be thinking of Megasaur as one would a sweeper, with preparations and 1v6 situations. I do not believe that is the optimal way to think of a stall pokemon- No stall pokemon can work alone. Megasaur can't wall things with super-effective STAB, but what wall can? Megasaur needs some support to get rid of counters (but for nothing else!). That may go against that idea that S Ranks should be able to operate alone without team support, but with the current S ranks it's obvious that that particular idea has been abandoned.

Mega Venusaur is the unrivalled best defensive mega. Nothing can even approach it's niche. It cannot wall things that have super-effective STAB against it but everything else it beats. It has a very wide movepool it can tailor to counter almost anything it wants- the only thing it wants that it doesn't have already is a Rock-type attack, and if one would be so desperate one could just run HP Rock.

Sand fucking up Mega Venu wasn't my main argument as to why Mega Venusaur is not S rank material, it was just a way to show how easily you can shut down Mega Venu if you choose so. Sand is just one way of doing so, and just because it's not common it shouldn't be ignored, as it's a perfectly viable playstyle (it's great actually). The point is that even if Mega Venusaur walls a significant portion of your team (which doesn't happen most of the time), there are many ways to get around this. I can easily make a sand team that has three members walled by Mega Venusaur, and as long as i have Smooth Rock Hippo / Ttar and a solid switch-in to Mega Saur it won't matter, as it won't be able to hold those Pokemon back more than a couple of turns, while it gets easily walled in return. How much damage Mega Venusaur does to Hippowdon and Tyranitar doesn't really matter, as your team should have checks to Mega Venusaur anyway. It's not like Tyranitar and Hippowdon struggle to find switch in chances outside of Mega Venusaur.

As for the easy to wear down part, i already explained why it's even bigger of an issue for Mega Venusaur than for most other defensive Pokemon. First, Mega Venusaur is used as the main switch-in to Rotom-W, which means that Mega Venusaur will often be burned. Combine this with vulnerability to all kinds of passive damage other than Toxic and lack of Leftovers, and it's not hard at all to understand why Mega Venusaur is easier to wear down than other defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory, Clefable, Hippowdon, Blissey, etc. I will use this example one more time because it's a scenario that happens very often in practice, but a burned Mega Venusaur that switches in against Rotom-W's Volt Switch with SR up, loses 32% of its life minimum before getting forced out from the Pokemon that comes in next, at which point it is very hard to wall the Pokemon you are supposed to after.

As for the Pokemon you mentioned, i was talking about their most common sets, which Mega Venusaur fails to wall, and i was also takling about Mega Venusaur's most common and effective defensive set, Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Synthesis. SD LO Bisharp easily 2HKOes Mega Venusaur at +2, SD Mega Scizor uses it as set up bait, Gengar wins with a SpD drop from Shadow Ball, which it has plenty of chances to get, as you can't significantly damage it back. SpD Heatran burns Mega Venusaur which makes it laughably easy to wear down, which is why Mega Venusaur doesn't want to stay in against Heatran unless you have no other option. Tyranitar makes Synthesis ineffective, which means that if you switch into it, you will lose more health than you manage to heal with Synthesis / Leech Seed as a check/counter comes in and forces Mega Venusaur, so in the long run, Mega Venusaur is not a good answer to Tyranitar. My only bad example was Mega Gyarados, which still does ~50% damage with +1 Ice Fang, and it's not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur, as i already have mentioned (just use WoW Rotom-W and burn it on the first switch-in, and then use Volt Switch one more time, and there you have it, Mega Venusaur is in OHKO range of +1 Mega Gyarados).

Mega Venusaur was a good all-catch check to Mega Lucario, especially before you have scouted Mega Lucarios's set, which not many Pokemon could do. Also, being able to take one hit from +2 NP Mega Lucario and hit back for good damage with EQ / HP Fire definitely made Mega Venusaur a check to this beast, and made it much easier to handle in general. I never said that Mega Venusaur was a counter to Mega Lucario, but denying it was a good check is ignorant.

Finally, when did i ever imply that Mega Venusaur plays alone while the opponent has 6 Pokemon? Getting fucked up by WoW happens no matter what teammates you have, unless you have a cleric. Failing to wall more than half of the Pokemon in S and A rank happens no matter what teammates Meg Venusaur has. Getting worn down by repeated Volt-Switch and U-turn (with SR up) from Pokemon such as Rotom-W and Greninja, which Mega Venusaur is relied on to check, happens no matter what teammates you have, as it is Mega Venusaur's job to handle those threats. One could say that you should have strong anti-SR support, but any decent player knows that with the appropriate offensive presure, SR is easy to keep up, if not for the duration of the whole game, for most of it. Mega Venusaur simply isn't such a huge defensive presence anymore.

I also have a problem with the argument that Mega Venusaur can't wall most pokes in S rank. For one, it's just five pokemon which aren't representative whatsoever as far as the tier goes. And two, those five pokemon include Psycho Boost Deoxys-S, Aerilate Frustration Mega Pinsir, a Dragon-type nuke and a Fire-type nuke with Drought. Not really a fair contest. Saying that "it doesn't wall the majority of the metagame" when you're only using S, A+ and A rank as your base also isn't a fair statement as all those ranks combined don't even make up half of the viable pokemon in OU list. That's just twisting statistics into your favor.

Failing to wall the majority of the best Pokemon in OU is a fact no matter what those Pokemon are. Saying that those Pokemon have STAB super effective coverage against Mega Venusaur or are offensive monsters is just sugarcoating the fact that Mega Venusaur can't deal with the majority of the best offensive threats. And do i really have to explain why performance against the S and A rank offensive Pokemon is way more relevant to judge Mega Venusaur's defensive potential in the metagame than performance against the offensive Pokemon in lower ranks? Because those are the best offensive threats, simple as that. If you want to call a Pokemon S rank by defensive criteria it's only logical that it should be able to wall the majority of the best offensive threats in the metagame, which Mega Venusaur can't do.

Going to also disagree on your M-Venusaur argument. Your M-Gyarados statement is wrong as shown here:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (30.7 - 36.2%) -- 54% chance to 3HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

With Giga Drain recovery, M-Gyarados has no way to beat M-Venu in a 1v1. Also, Mega Venusaur is almost impossible to bypass without a Super-Effective move other than Ice/Fire, Weather in your favor, or a boost. Look at this calc:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 294-348 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's a Choice Banded, Max Attack Talonflame bypassing Thick Fat, yet Mega-Venu survives (although barely). The "Can't Wall anything in S" is completely rigged, considering it's going against Aerilate M-Pinser, A Dragon-Fire Resisting everything it basically does, and a Fire-Flying with Drought. Next up is you say "Mega Venusaur can be worn down". ANY Pokemon can be worn down, whether it's an Arceus or a Bidoof it can be worn down, defeated, whatever.

Yeah my bad about the Mega Gyarados comment. Also, showing that Mega Venusaur can survive CB Talonflame's Brave Bird means nothing, as you can't switch into it, you should never stay in against it, and there are many more offensive threats without even super effective STABs that can get past Mega Venusaur, such as SD Garchomp, LO Landorus, LO Terrakion (with or without SD), and LO SD Bisharp. It's just an empty statement meant to impress the ignorant, as any knowledgable player knows that getting past Mega Venusaur is not hard at all with the right support, or even without sometimes.

alexwolf I think there are some very real flaws about Rotom-W that prevent it from going up to S rank. First is that Rotom-W just isn't very strong, so it can be taken advantage of by bulkier Pokemon easily. Some Pokemon that abuse Rotom-W's overall weakness include Kyurem-B, SubSD / Lum Berry Garchomp, Wacan Berry Manaphy, Roost Charizard Y, and Suicune. Rotom-W especially without investment will find itself to be a liability in front of a bulkier sweeper. Rotom-W gets a lot of use because it is an easy fix to check a lot of threats in the metagame, it isn't necessarily the exclusive option for an offensive team to check certain threats. Choice Scarf Tyranitar can check a lot of the threats that Rotom-W can (Talonflame, Pinsir, Mawile, etc.).

Also, Rotom-W is a Pokemon that is pretty easy is to overwhelm because it doesn't have reliable recovery. It does not get affected by hazards, but repeated attacks wear it down. This is why bird teams are so popular, because many team rely upon Rotom-W to be a Flying-type check and lose because Rotom-W can not take consistent hard hits throughout the match. Compare it to Latias which can stick around towards the end of games quite easily (and has a fair bit of power behind it). It can only pivot around for so long.

It's an analogous situation to Scizor last generation. Scizor could check a lot of big threats with CB Bullet Punch (TERRAKION) and could get the game back in your hands with U-turn, but it isn't a threat you prepare for like Rain or Keldeo was. It was a convenient way to check a lot of threats in one slot. When Rotom-W is sent out on the field, I don't think "oh damn what am I going to do" compared to when Charizard Y, Pinsir, or Aegislash come out on the field where something is going to get smashed. Or Charizard X potentially getting a DD up. Or Mega-Venusaur being irremovable from the field especially with Leech Seed. The consequence for Rotom-W is much much smaller, it's a Poke that doesn't really have a win condition. Understandably it is a pivot so that isn't its role, but still. A+ rank is a fine rank that is descriptive of its capabilities. S rank is giving it way too much credit.

This would be true if i was nominating Rotom-W for S rank based solely on its defensive abilities, which is not the case. As i already mentioned, the combo of Rotom-W's defensive and supporting potential is what makes it S-rank worthy. No other Pokemon can provide so many free switches to frail Pokemon so consistently, all the while checking many dangerous offensive Pokemon.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I believe that Mega Pinsir should go from S rank to A+ because we make him more intimidating than he actually is.

Mega Pinsir is often described as a mythical monster, a beast that terrorizes the helpless metagame and cannot be stopped. Through hysteria and damage calcs against physical walls we fuel his legend. However, there are a few major issues with Mega Pinsir.

1. Mega Pinsir cannot exist without Pinsir. Therefore, ranking Pinsir and his Mega as two separate entities is ignorance. - Base Pinsir is so bad that he's crippling to a team. His frailty is pathetic and any hit puts a dent in him. In addition, he sports no immunities to status/attacks like Aeigslash, the Zards, and Venusaur. On top of that, bug typing is very lackluster in practice. Ground-types have physical bulk and access to Rock moves, Grass is a rare attacking type. So Fighting—one type out of Eighteen—is really the only thing Pinsir wants to take a hit from. Thus, Pinsir's switch in opportunities are very rare outside of a predictable revenge kill. Base Pinsir literally has to be babied until the end of the match, and sometimes, it's just too late for him to shine. In the case of Zard and Venusaur, they have usable base forms that provide switch-in and setup opportunities.

2. Mega Pinsir is predictable because if you aren't running Quick Attack/Earthquake/Return/Swords Dance then you're using an inferior Mega Pinsir. - The Zards have an element of surprise to them that keeps opponents guessing until the grand reveal. Venusaur can go mixed tank, special tank, or wall, and there's always the fear of him running sleep powder. Pinsir has one set that outclasses all others. It's very good, but the Pinsir user has nothing to hide. The best mons in the game are known for their unpredictability which allows them free turns.

3. Mega Pinsir has limited setup opportunities due to his vulnerability to all status, Steath Rock, and weakness to the common elements of Fire, Ice, Electricity, Rock, and Flying - A wall will cripple him if it survives, a sweeper will more than likely be carrying a move that hits him super effectively, but Pinsir depends on a Swords Dance to sweep most of the time. He needs a free turn, a free turn that is very difficult for him to earn. A setup sweeper is supposed to switch in on "something that can't hurt it." What can Pinsir switch in on that can't hurt him? He's weak to so many things, and frail. A competent player would rather lose one mon to Mega Pinsir and bring in a wall or check then switch out and let the bug live at full health. So if Pinsir decides to boost in front an opponent's pokemon, 9 times out of 10 he's getting hit afterwards. Everyone knows that healthy Pinsir is too much of a threat. Also, we've already discussed his 4x Stealth Rock weakness so I won't go into it.

4. Revenge Killing is Pinsir's safest way to Mega Evolve. However, he's checked by a large group of OU mons that get a free switch in after death. You can switch Pinsir out, but bringing him back into play is a hassle.

In summation, I feel as if we've glorified Mega Pinsir to a rank that he doesn't really deserve. Yes, he can sweep a large portion of a metagame after a swords dance but setting up with Pinsir is very challenging due to his frailty and the lack of resistances and immunities in his base form.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Just wanted to share my opinion ^__^.

*Is ready for the hate*

 

[Chou Toshio]

@ Liarliarpantsonfire

Failing to wall the majority of the best Pokemon in OU is a fact no matter what those Pokemon are. Saying that those Pokemon have STAB super effective coverage against Mega Venusaur or are offensive monsters is just sugarcoating the fact that Mega Venusaur can't deal with the majority of the best offensive threats. And do i really have to explain why performance against the S and A rank offensive Pokemon is way more relevant to judge Mega Venusaur's defensive potential in the metagame than performance against the offensive Pokemon in lower ranks? Because those are the best offensive threats, simple as that. If you want to call a Pokemon S rank by defensive criteria it's only logical that it should be able to wall the majority of the best offensive threats in the metagame, which Mega Venusaur can't do.

Do note that the OU mods are well aware the descriptions for the various ranks in this thread are not very specific and not the most useful. We're working on coming up with better descriptions, and actually Alex is leading the effort on that front.

From my personal standpoint, asking an S-tier defensive threat to wall the majority of S/A+/A threats is a bit too much (they are after all, the top threats of the meta), and not something any Pokemon can do.

HOWEVER-- it is undeniable that performance against S/A+/A threats is critical to the real value of a defensive Pokemon. While a "majority" is a bit much-- I'd say that an S tier Defensive Mon should be a very good check to key S/A+ mons, and be able to switch-in safely against at least 3-4 of them with relative impunity.

This is something that you can't really say about Mega Venusaur (anymore).

Ironically, it's also a definition that Rotom-W DOES live up to-- since it checks Pinsir (an S threat) better than else, switches into Talonflame and Heatran basically flawlessly, and is a good check to both Landorus-T and Landorus-I (being a flat-out counter to Lando-I if it goes specially defensive, while standard physically defensive Rotom almost always counters Lando-T).

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Can we please stop bashing regular pinsir as if it was some huge liability. The reason why pinsirite works so well on it is because pinsir lacks that nasty boltbeam weakness, doesnt take 50% damage from stealth rock and can gain early advantage with moxie/mold breaker. Trust me theres nothing more priceless than smashing smart ass rotom switches with earthquake or punish the opponent for sacking a mon to get a rkiller safe by getting a free +1 boost. But wait, the best of all, setuping a swords dance without mega evolving as thundurus comes in only for it to find itself unable to ko you while you can easily ko back. This thing is so fucking dangerous because of all the options it has to always mess up with its few checks and counters. Knowing when to mega evolve to make good use of each form qualities is the key to pinsir's success and i hate the fact that everyone seems to think you should use it like lucario. The unpredictable factor is irrelevant, once it setups it can smash almost anything in its path, even faster mons. It doesnt matter if you know whats coming when theres little you can do about it. There are plenty of setup opportunities for it because of how many things it forces out. Conkeldurr, volcarona, keldeo, venusaur, anything at quick attack range due to the threat of moxie, heatran, sylveon, blobs, breloom, heracross, scarf lando-t/chomp/terrakion locked in the wrong move, specs keldeo locked in secret sword are all common (some not so common but still relevant) threats that pinsir can either setup on or force out and setup on the switch. Its undeniably a massively powerful sweeper that boasts few solid answers and it still has ways around them. Should stay S.

 

[doughboy]

This would be true if i was nominating Rotom-W for S rank based solely on its defensive abilities, which is not the case. As i already mentioned, the combo of Rotom-W's defensive and supporting potential is what makes it S-rank worthy. No other Pokemon can provide so many free switches to frail Pokemon so consistently, all the while checking many dangerous offensive Pokemon.

U-turn Landorus-T, Zapdos (its got all three pivot moves), and Defog Mega-Scizor are all pivots that are just as good at providing pivot support to a team and there own brand of support: SR, Defog / Twave / Baton Pass (so underrated js), Defog + strong priority (Bullet Punch) respectively. The support they bring is a lot more significant than Rotom-W's (I see Will-o-Wisp as an extension to moveset to check threats). They all have more or similar bulk to Rotom-W with a good palette of resists too. In addition they are all stronger than Rotom-W too.

On the threat front, let's see what these guys can check

Lando-T: Charizard X, Excadrill, Garchomp, Lando-T, Mega Mawile, Terrakion
Zapdos: Mega-Pinsir, Aegislash, Thundurus-I, certain Excadrill, Landorus-I,
Mega Scizor: Kyurem-B, Lando-T, Mega-Mawile (non Fire Fang), Lati@s, Deoxys-D / Deoxys-S

The Pokemon in bold are Pokemon I consider to be big threats in the tier. These Pokemon are the same or just as relevant threats as the ones you listed in your post that Rotom-W checks. So your statement of:

No other Pokemon can provide so many free switches to frail Pokemon so consistently, all the while checking many dangerous offensive Pokemon.

isn't true. I think what you and others who are nominating Rotom-W to S rank are getting hung up on is that Rotom-W is the only OU Pokemon that counters into and pivots out of Talonflame + Pinsir (and the other stuff). I don't disagree that isn't very important or very cool, especially for the offensive teams that Rotom-W is going to find itself on. However, there are threats to offensive teams just as big as those two such as Thundurus-I and Deoxys-S. The pivots I listed above can take care of those big threats (+more) and offer support outside of pivoting that is better than Rotom-W's Will-o-Wisp, SR / Defog primarily. Considering that, it doesn't seem Rotom-W's pivoting capabilities in addition to its support are beyond the capabilities or usefulness of other pivots in the tier, especially the three I listed, that would make it deserving to go up to S rank.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I believe that Mega Pinsir should go from S rank to A+ because we make him more intimidating than he actually is.

Mega Pinsir is often described as a mythical monster, a beast that terrorizes the helpless metagame and cannot be stopped. Through hysteria and damage calcs against physical walls we fuel his legend. However, there are a few major issues with Mega Pinsir.

^this is not an argument... please say something with actual content as a basis for an argument...

1. Mega Pinsir cannot exist without Pinsir. Therefore, ranking Pinsir and his Mega as two separate entities is ignorance. - Base Pinsir is so bad that he's crippling to a team. His frailty is pathetic and any hit puts a dent in him. In addition, he sports no immunities to status/attacks like Aeigslash, the Zards, and Venusaur. On top of that, bug typing is very lackluster in practice. Ground-types have physical bulk and access to Rock moves, Grass is a rare attacking type. So Fighting—one type out of Eighteen—is really the only thing Pinsir wants to take a hit from. Thus, Pinsir's switch in opportunities are very rare outside of a predictable revenge kill. Base Pinsir literally has to be babied until the end of the match, and sometimes, it's just too late for him to shine. In the case of Zard and Venusaur, they have usable base forms that provide switch-in and setup opportunities.

Pinsir's pure-bug typing is useful, and can trip up threats trying to beat mega pinsir with electric/ice attacks. Pinsir also brings Mold Breaker with it (seriously people, STOP using Moxie...), giving it a chance to destroy uncareful Rotom-W; while also mind-fucking teams that rely too much on Rotom-W. With 60 / 100 / 70, Pinsir has average to above average defenses for an offensive Pokemon, and can take a physical attack fairly well. Also that 25% only SR damage on the first switch is a blessing!

Pinsir is definitely an asset to Mega Pinsir.

2. Mega Pinsir is predictable because if you aren't running Quick Attack/Earthquake/Return/Swords Dance then you're using an inferior Mega Pinsir. - The Zards have an element of surprise to them that keeps opponents guessing until the grand reveal. Venusaur can go mixed tank, special tank, or wall, and there's always the fear of him running sleep powder. Pinsir has one set that outclasses all others. It's very good, but the Pinsir user has nothing to hide. The best mons in the game are known for their unpredictability which allows them free turns.

The incredible thing about pinsir is how well it does while being completely predictable... even when you know exactly what it's going to do it steamrolls you. Even if you know exactly what it's running, it can still trick you up just by forcing a life/death decision based solely on whether it Return/EQ/or SD.

3. Mega Pinsir has limited setup opportunities due to his vulnerability to all status, Steath Rock, and weakness to the common elements of Fire, Ice, Electricity, Rock, and Flying - A wall will cripple him if it survives, a sweeper will more than likely be carrying a move that hits him super effectively, but Pinsir depends on a Swords Dance to sweep most of the time. He needs a free turn, a free turn that is very difficult for him to earn. A setup sweeper is supposed to switch in on "something that can't hurt it." What can Pinsir switch in on that can't hurt him? He's weak to so many things, and frail. A competent player would rather lose one mon to Mega Pinsir and bring in a wall or check then switch out and let the bug live at full health. So if Pinsir decides to boost in front an opponent's pokemon, 9 times out of 10 he's getting hit afterwards. Everyone knows that healthy Pinsir is too much of a threat. Also, we've already discussed his 4x Stealth Rock weakness so I won't go into it.

Normally pinsir doesn't even need to set up-- just wacking stuff with return is enough. Pinsir is a wallbreaker first, that happens to be able to prey on the opponent's fear or weakness to set up an incredible sweeping power when an opportunity arises. If you are relying on Pinsir as a sweeper that gets up SD, you are playing him wrong...

4. Revenge Killing is Pinsir's safest way to Mega Evolve. However, he's checked by a large group of OU mons that get a free switch in after death. You can switch Pinsir out, but bringing him back into play is a hassle.

In summation, I feel as if we've glorified Mega Pinsir to a rank that he doesn't really deserve. Yes, he can sweep a large portion of a metagame after a swords dance but setting up with Pinsir is very challenging due to his frailty and the lack of resistances and immunities in his base form.

Anyway, thanks for reading. Just wanted to share my opinion ^__^.

*Is ready for the hate*

Fair enough, though in actual practice I've never had trouble mega evolving him-- can't give you a good reason though. xD

 

[Red Cat]

Do note that the OU mods are well aware the descriptions for this various ranks in this thread are not very specific and not the most useful. We're working on coming up with better descriptions, and actually Alex is leading the effort on that front.

From my personal standpoint, asking an S-tier defensive threat to wall the majority of S/A+/A threats is a bit too much (they are after all, the top threats of the meta), and not something any Pokemon can do.

HOWEVER-- it is undeniable that performance against S/A+/A threats is critical to the real value of a defensive Pokemon. While a "majority" is a bit much-- I'd say that an S tier Defensive Mon should be a very good check to key S/A+ mons, and be able to switch-in safely against at least 3-4 of them with relative impunity.

This is something that you can't really say about Mega Venusaur (anymore).

Ironically, it's also a definition that Rotom-W DOES live up to-- since it checks Pinsir (an S threat) better than else, switches into Talonflame and Heatran basically flawlessly, and is a good check to both Landorus-T and Landorus-I (being a flat-out counter to Lando-I if it goes specially defensive, while standard physically defensive Rotom almost always counters Lando-T).

Mega Venusaur can switch into Manaphy, Landorus-T, Thundurus, and of course Rotom-W. If something is in the A+ or S rank it is a key mon. So for whatever definition you guys come up with, at least be consistent. The game has really shifted toward offense over the last few generations to the point where there are no S rank worthy defensive Pokemon. The days of having defensive threats like SkarmBliss which could significantly transform OU are long gone. So while Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur are very good defensively, they do not belong in the S rank with monsters like Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

^this is not an argument... please say something with actual content as a basis for an argument...



Pinsir's pure-bug typing is useful, and can trip up threats trying to beat mega pinsir with electric/ice attacks. Pinsir also brings Mold Breaker with it (seriously people, STOP using Moxie...), giving it a chance to destroy uncareful Rotom-W; while also mind-fucking teams that rely too much on Rotom-W. With 60 / 100 / 70, Pinsir has average to above average defenses for an offensive Pokemon, and can take a physical attack fairly well. Also that 25% only SR damage on the first switch is a blessing!

Pinsir is definitely an asset to Mega Pinsir.


The incredible thing about pinsir is how well it does while being completely predictable... even when you know exactly what it's going to do it steamrolls you. Even if you know exactly what it's running, it can still trick you up just by forcing a life/death decision based solely on whether it Return/EQ/or SD.



Normally pinsir doesn't even need to set up-- just wacking stuff with return is enough. Pinsir is a wallbreaker first, that happens to be able to prey on the opponent's fear or weakness to set up an incredible sweeping power when an opportunity arises. If you are relying on Pinsir as a sweeper that gets up SD, you are playing him wrong...



Fair enough, though in actual practice I've never had trouble mega evolving him-- can't give you a good reason though. xD

1. You can trip people up with bug typing no doubt, but I don't think Pinsir wants to take a special hit in base form. He loses a good chunk of health. But I see your point lol. Also, I don't really like the "uncareful" Rotom-W argument you put up. I like assuming that my opponent is paying attention.

2. Pinsir's godlike set is both a blessing and a curse in my opinion. You have superb coverage, amazing damage, and great priority. But I personally don't like how I can't play as many mindgames with Pinsir as with other pokemon. If I bring out a Garchomp or Tyranitar you don't know what they're running until you scout for a turn. But to each his own, there's no harm in agreeing to disagree.

3. Pinsir is a wall breaker, but he's not going to break much without setting up, and then he might as well sweep. Also, I think his wallbreaking ability sort of depends on how the wall enters. Are we assuming hazards? After a death of a teammate? Switching in? However, I will say that being able to take wear down Megasaur and Gliscor is a huge boon.

Anyway, thanks for replying. (Also, my Pinsir is a monster blurb was supposed to be a badass opening statement) lol

 

[Blinkythechicken]

1. You can trip people up with bug typing no doubt, but I don't think Pinsir wants to take a special hit in base form. He loses a good chunk of health. But I see your point lol. Also, I don't really like the "uncareful" Rotom-W argument you put up. I like assuming that my opponent is paying attention.

I feel the need to interject here...

As I see it, all Pinsir are Mevolved the first chance they can, and as Rotom-W is pretty much a hard counter to M-Pinsir, they will stay in, and get smashed with EQ. Unless the opponent is playing very paranoid(ly?), it will hit. Not a matter of being "uncareful" IMO.

Also, when will it shift to ranking A/A- pokes? I feel we are getting nowhere with S/A+...

 

[Ryolain]

1. You can trip people up with bug typing no doubt, but I don't think Pinsir wants to take a special hit in base form. He loses a good chunk of health. But I see your point lol. Also, I don't really like the "uncareful" Rotom-W argument you put up. I like assuming that my opponent is paying attention.

2. Pinsir's godlike set is both a blessing and a curse in my opinion. You have superb coverage, amazing damage, and great priority. But I personally don't like how I can't play as many mindgames with Pinsir as with other pokemon. If I bring out a Garchomp or Tyranitar you don't know what they're running until you scout for a turn. But to each his own, there's no harm in agreeing to disagree.

3. Pinsir is a wall breaker, but he's not going to break much without setting up. Well, it sort of depends on how the wall enters. Are we assuming hazards? After a death of a teammate? Switching in? However, I will say that being able to take wear down Megasaur and Gliscor is a huge boon.

I think the point in #1 isn't that opponents just miss the Mold Breaker text so Rotom-W dies, it's that they have to gamble when they see that text. Is the opponent going to MEvo right away, at which point Rotom-W is a great check to it, or do you risk leaving something else in/switching in something else to take the non-Mega Mold Breaker EQ, when you could potentially guess wrong and let MPinsir set up on you? It's a lot like MKhan's Scrappy mindgames - potentially good checks/counters had to risk that MKhan anticipated their switch-in and waited to MEvo, taking them out with Scrappy Return or getting a PuP that allowed them to OHKO with +1 Crunch. The difference in Pinsir's checks vs. MPinsir's is important and DOES allow MPinsir to be unpredictable and play mindgames, despite what you say in #2.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Sand fucking up Mega Venu wasn't my main argument as to why Mega Venusaur is not S rank material, it was just a way to show how easily you can shut down Mega Venu if you choose so. Sand is just one way of doing so, and just because it's not common it shouldn't be ignored, as it's a perfectly viable playstyle (it's great actually). The point is that even if Mega Venusaur walls a significant portion of your team (which doesn't happen most of the time), there are many ways to get around this. I can easily make a sand team that has three members walled by Mega Venusaur, and as long as i have Smooth Rock Hippo / Ttar and a solid switch-in to Mega Saur it won't matter, as it won't be able to hold those Pokemon back more than a couple of turns, while it gets easily walled in return. How much damage Mega Venusaur does to Hippowdon and Tyranitar doesn't really matter, as your team should have checks to Mega Venusaur anyway. It's not like Tyranitar and Hippowdon struggle to find switch in chances outside of Mega Venusaur.

Sand weakens Synthesis. M-Venusaur still has 2 other ways of recovery.

As for the easy to wear down part, i already explained why it's even bigger of an issue for Mega Venusaur than for most other defensive Pokemon. First, Mega Venusaur is used as the main switch-in to Rotom-W, which means that Mega Venusaur will often be burned. Combine this with vulnerability to all kinds of passive damage other than Toxic and lack of Leftovers, and it's not hard at all to understand why Mega Venusaur is easier to wear down than other defensive Pokemon such as Skarmory, Clefable, Hippowdon, Blissey, etc. I will use this example one more time because it's a scenario that happens very often in practice, but a burned Mega Venusaur that switches in against Rotom-W's Volt Switch with SR up, loses 32% of its life minimum before getting forced out from the Pokemon that comes in next, at which point it is very hard to wall the Pokemon you are supposed to after.

Anything that doesn't have Magic Guard or Natural Cure will be easier to wear down if they get burnt. Couple in entry hazards and taking an attack as you switch in, no duh M-Venusaur gets worn down. Did you know a burned Skarmory takes about 34% damage on an Adamant CB Scizor's U-turn if it switches into rocks? If you factor in leftovers, it's about 28% damage instead. Ohh man, and then that Skarmory gets forced out by the obligatory fire switch in. I guess this makes Skarmory "easy" to wear down? If you don't want a crippled wall, then don't switch it in on something that can burn/toxic it. The previous statement is literally applicable to every wall that's not Blissey, Chansey, or Clefable.

As for the Pokemon you mentioned, i was talking about their most common sets, which Mega Venusaur fails to wall, and i was also takling about Mega Venusaur's most common and effective defensive set, Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb / Leech Seed / Synthesis. SD LO Bisharp easily 2HKOes Mega Venusaur at +2, SD Mega Scizor uses it as set up bait, Gengar wins with a SpD drop from Shadow Ball, which it has plenty of chances to get, as you can't significantly damage it back. SpD Heatran burns Mega Venusaur which makes it laughably easy to wear down, which is why Mega Venusaur doesn't want to stay in against Heatran unless you have no other option. Tyranitar makes Synthesis ineffective, which means that if you switch into it, you will lose more health than you manage to heal with Synthesis / Leech Seed as a check/counter comes in and forces Mega Venusaur, so in the long run, Mega Venusaur is not a good answer to Tyranitar. My only bad example was Mega Gyarados, which still does ~50% damage with +1 Ice Fang, and it's not hard at all to wear down Mega Venusaur, as i already have mentioned (just use WoW Rotom-W and burn it on the first switch-in, and then use Volt Switch one more time, and there you have it, Mega Venusaur is in OHKO range of +1 Mega Gyarados).

The most common M-Venusaur wall set can't wall everything? No really? Certain offensive pokemon can set-up on it? And what mystical wall do we know of that doesn't have some sort of pokemon that CAN'T set-up on it? M-Venusaur is not some hulking fortress that can wall everything or prevent everything from setting up. Nor is any other wall in the game. Blissey can't do much to stop a Gengar from setting up a sub. Ferrothorn can't do much to stop Scizor from swords dancing. Stating that a +2 LO Bisharp can 2HKO a M-Venusaur is kinda... irrelevant. What pokemon is not 2HKO by a +2 LO Bisharp? Mandibuzz is 2HKO by Iron Head. Skarmory and Hippodon is 2HKO by Knock Off.



What distinguishes M-Venusaur from literally every other wall in the game is that he has THE most offensive presence of them all. 123 Sp Atk and 100 atk, even when uninvested, can still hit fairly hard. Great bulk, great offensive stats, great typing, great ability, great movepool. Oh yeah, but he doesn't have leftovers and burn weakens him as a wall (because I guess burn doesn't make any other wall less effective). Lol. You don't even need to use him as a wall. Use him as a tank! Giga Drain, Synthesis, HP fire, and Sludge Bomb works fantastic on him because so little things can 2HKO M-Venusaur as long as it's not super-effective or a +2 hit. If Heatran gives you a headache, get EQ instead!

0- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

M-Venusaur doesn't even need investments to 2HKO a Heatran. Give him a little bit more attack and it could easily be an OHKO.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I think the point in #1 isn't that opponents just miss the Mold Breaker text so Rotom-W dies, it's that they have to gamble when they see that text. Is the opponent going to MEvo right away, at which point Rotom-W is a great check to it, or do you risk leaving something else in/switching in something else to take the non-Mega Mold Breaker EQ, when you could potentially guess wrong and let MPinsir set up on you? It's a lot like MKhan's Scrappy mindgames - potentially good checks/counters had to risk that MKhan anticipated their switch-in and waited to MEvo, taking them out with Scrappy Return or getting a PuP that allowed them to OHKO with +1 Crunch. The difference in Pinsir's checks vs. MPinsir's is important and DOES allow MPinsir to be unpredictable and play mindgames, despite what you say in #2.

Hmm but couldn't physically defensive Rotom, the most popular type out right now, survive an Earthquake and WoW back? Also, the moment you switch Pinsir in it says "Pinsir breaks the Mold" so if I had a conkeldurr out or something. Wouldn't the smart thing to do is wear Pinsir down with another move because he's probably fishing for the Rotom-W switch in? Just wondering. Again, I guess it all depends on the circumstances. We could argue from so many different angles lol,

 

[Blinkythechicken]

Hmm but couldn't physically defensive Rotom, the most popular type out right now, survive an Earthquake and WoW back? Also, the moment you switch Pinsir in it says "Pinsir breaks the Mold" so if I had a conkeldurr out or something. Wouldn't the smart thing to do is wear Pinsir down with another move because he's probably fishing for the Rotom-W switch in? Just wondering. Again, I guess it all depends on the circumstances. We could argue from so many different angles lol,

Rotom, seeing Pinsir, comes in. Sees "breaking the mold", disregards it, as it expects it to Mevolve and SD 1st turn. EQ is enough to 2HKO it, and Pinsir can out speed. Either the player sacks Rotom there, or switches into something else, hoping to preserve Rotom. Pinsir wins here as a +2 Return can finish off Rotom. And, as i said, none other than paranoid trainers will actually process the "breaking the mold" text.