Nope, I meant the Liepard actually.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
Nope, I meant the Liepard actually.
You know what else is good against prankster swagg? Extremespeed. ES dragonite can heal the confusion with a lum berry, set up a dragon dance and then fuck up everything (other than klefki) with 2.5x Atk Extremespeed. Still, I know people are going to ignore this and say that the only counter is Nusel.
klefki is troublesome, but you it can be dealt with. Use something like magnezone with 0 Atk IV and substitute. He is immune to t-wave, takes very little from foul play, can trap klefki, set a sub, and proceed to charge beam klefki and increase his special Atk. If you play right you kill klefki and end up behind a sub with 2.5x Sp Atk or more, so you easily get to kill another pokemon.
Yes, there is always the chance that you will hit in confusion a bunch of times in a row, but is really not very different from losing because of a critical hit or something like that.
klefki is troublesome, but you it can be dealt with. Use something like magnezone with 0 Atk IV and substitute. He is immune to t-wave, takes very little from foul play, can trap klefki, set a sub, and proceed to charge beam klefki and increase his special Atk. If you play right you kill klefki and end up behind a sub with 2.5x Sp Atk or more, so you easily get to kill another pokemon.
Yes, there is always the chance that you will hit in confusion a bunch of times in a row, but is really not very different from losing because of a critical hit or something like that.
Uhh there was no ad hominem I said your arguments were shit, not you. Anyways comparing SR to prankster swagger is really stupid, I understand what you mean about adaptation, but that was not ever part of my argument, I solely argued that they were uncompetitive, which you stated you disagreed with but never gave a reason for. Although something is a gimmick, it doesn't mean it isn't uncompetitive, and as you stated yourself:
How is using terrible pokemon with own tempo that are unviable against regular OU teams not too centralizing, or random lum berries (sounds pretty centralizing to me if your solution is, "lets throw a lum berry on it,"), even stuff like safeguard has no real use outside of countering swag play teams (and prankster swagger still moves first, so that really has a 55% chance of working anyways, not to mention taunt Thundurus). Even moody has better counters than prankster swagger now that roar can't miss, but no one is clamoring for the unban of moody, because it is still uncompetitive and allows victory through luck alone rather than a combination of (unavoidable) luck and skill.
I have to disagree with this, as it is far more damaging to ban multiple prankster users on one team then it is to ban the combination of prankster and swagger, as there is nothing explicitly uncompetitive about a team using Sableye, Klefki, Thundurus, and Tornadus together (all prankster mons that can function outside of prankster swagger). You also pretty much undermine all of your post with this paragraph, if prankster swagger is competitive, why do you need to limit it? Shouldn't it be okay to use 6 prankster swagger mons if you can use one? I guess I really don't understand the difference.
Once again, sorry if my first post offended you or you thought I was attacking you, but you never actually argued that prankster swagger was competitive, you just started with the assumption it was and undermined your own post later. The comparison of SR to Prank Swag is also pretty terrible, because one is a move that introduces no luck to the game, and can't even be argued as uncompetitive, to one that relies solely on the introduction of luck.
Last edited:
Mold Breaker and friends only affect abilities that interfere with the user's own moves. Since Prankster only affects the opponent's moves, it is not affected by Mold Breaker and such. Bulbapedia has a full list of abilities affected by Mold Breaker and related abilities:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mold_Breaker_(ability)
EDIT: A little late, but whatever.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Mold_Breaker_(ability)
EDIT: A little late, but whatever.
What I have read from most of this thread is defined "counters" against SwagPlay. However, there is one key point that I am not seeing from most of the people who support SwagPlay. What benefits does it yield within the metagame by keeping it? So, sure, there are counters to it...but I have not found a single post that can clearly point out beneficial, competitive reasons for keeping it. If you are a supporter of SwagPlay, you should start listing those reasons as opposed to listing so-called "counters". Give me something defined, other than luck, as to why we should keep it.
For those of you who are accusing people of whining about SwagPlay, I suggest that you buy a mirror, as you are clearly doing the same thing. Talk about whining adds nothing for your argument, nor does it yield any benefit for competitive discussion. Provide concrete reasons, or don't post.
For those of you who are accusing people of whining about SwagPlay, I suggest that you buy a mirror, as you are clearly doing the same thing. Talk about whining adds nothing for your argument, nor does it yield any benefit for competitive discussion. Provide concrete reasons, or don't post.
Flare Blitz and Brave Bird should do exactly the same amount of damage to Liepard. They have the same Base Power, they're both physical moves and Talonflame gets STAB on both.
And then Ditto switches in, laughs at your +6 Dragonite and sweeps your team cold. Setting up on Swagger Teams (or abusing the attack boosts if you get lucky), is hardly as easy as you claim.
So you're saying that switching out and PP stalling Swagger is a viable way of dealing with SwagPlay, and so we brought up entry hazard damage.
24 Swagger PP * 12.5% damage incurred on every switch-in = 300% damage. If the opponent has multiple SwagPlay users, then that number may be much higher, if you're attempting to stall out Swagger PP. Obviously, 300% is just an estimate, as not every Pokemon takes 12.5% damage from Stealth Rock. This number does not include potential Spikes damage either.
If in the 90% of matches with Stealth Rock in play, a player takes around 300% or more damage from entry hazards while doing no damage whatsoever in return, then you have a viable argument. If not, then please stop posting one-liners and irrelevant commentary.
Edit: WildShot okay I'm down with that, I won't post in this thread any more. :)
That depends entirely on what you personally want to see in a competitive environment. It's subjective.
Additionally, I do not think it is fair to place the burden of proof on the anti-ban folk.
Not getting the flare blitz easily? If klefki uses swagger, it will get it 45% of the time (taking into account the 90% accuracy of swagger, which everyone in this thread seems to forget. Is not 50%, is less. This actually makes a huge difference) and if klefki uses t-wave, it will get it in 75% of the time. In any case, it will get it in most of the time.
People are really exagerating. They are focusing on the times they lost against prankster and forgeting those times they won. Chances are the prankster player is losing a bunch of his battles due to luck too.
I thought so, thank you for confirming tho :D
The difference is that the pro-ban have already provided several, solid points towards why it isn't beneficial for the metagame. If we are talking about "fair", there is nothing wrong with wanting the opposite side to do the same thing.
The best argument I can make is that SwagPlay increases the number of viable play styles and Pokemon. As long as it doesn't overcentralize the metagame, increasing the number of play styles can only make the metagame healthier. SwagPlay is something you will need to prepare for, like you prepare for offense, balance, stall, Trick Room, weather and DragMag.
Excellent anti-ban post.
SwagPlay was utterly ineffective throughout, with Clefable stone-walling his entire team. And for all that SwagPlay is demonised for encouraging 'luck,' the game was ultimately decided by a readily accepted form of luck; a speed tie. Compared to the agony of last- turn speed ties, SwagPlay doesn't seem quite so luck-based after all, does it?
#banspeedties
Swagplay has no major effect on the use of other playstyles. It doesn't promote or discourage offense or stall, it just influences the course of an individual battle based on what the RNG confirms for every turn confusion is in effect. When it comes to tournament battles and even on the ladder, having a single match be heavily influenced by that one aspect is very uncompetitive, and is actually unhealthy for the metagame as a whole.
If SwagPlay becomes popular, it would end up promoting stall and bulky offense. Most of the Pokemon who best take on SwagPlay (Rotom-W, the blobs, Whimsicott, Trevenant, Gliscor, Espeon) are stall and bulky offense oriented, with the exception of Thundurus. It certainly discourages physical attackers.
Not really anti-ban, just showing how that happens, and how hax works like that. The real thing was how Thunder wave + swagger + Foul play works, and the only reason I didn't get fucked up was Unaware.
I suppose it wasn't the best the post, but more to say that Swagplay would have dominated my team if not for Clefable.
The speedtie was really iffy, but the game really didn't matter to me anyway.
However, if Swagplay means you have to run something like this, then meh, Ban Swagger+Prankster pls. Sorry if the stupidity of this post is pissing you off, but w/e.
And I brought out Rapid Spinners, Defoggers, and Synchronize Umbreon. At some point during the match if you get so outplayed by an opponent using 2 moves (and somehow magically having stealth rocks on the field without predicting that switch into their hazard setter) and are unable to remove hazards from the field then you deserve to lose.
Just like you deserve to lose when you know damn well your opponent has a ditto and you keep boosting in front of his face, or you sword dance on a foul play user who resists your STAB or neutral move, or when you get outplayed and let your opponent boost so then that poke sweeps your team.
Now that I think about it Dual Screens, Foul Play, Swagger Klefki is pretty legit set. Maximum Trolling potential right there....
That's completely wrong, Swagplay is only powerful against offensive teams. Swagplay isn't as effective against balanced teams, and it's nearly useless against stall, thanks to the number of Pokemon with high defenses, reliable healing, and cleric moves. Swagplay definitely discourages offense/HO, although it's still rather uncommon, which is why we're only having this discussion now.
Speed ties are an integral part of the game mechanics and can't be changed. Both players accept the 50/50 chance that will occur in that situation, but Swagplay isn't comparable at all. It's a strategy that one player chooses beforehand to turn the entire match into a series of "coin flips", and if the opponent is using a HO team they're at an inherent disadvantage. You don't seem to get that luck isn't the issue. Swagplay is completely uncompetitive, that's the problem.
Thus I brought up the prediction of Flare Blitzing Klefki on the obvious switch. This is where the mind game portion comes in.
That was painful to sit through. Clefable got lucky enough to be unaffected by the confusion and had resistance to foul play and it just went on and on. That Ditto sucked too, I understand the standard item for Ditto is scarf so how did it NOT out speed that Garchomp. It could have also out lasted that Clefable with moonlight. So add Clefable to the list of counter foul play list but I'm still not convinced this should be left in smogon games. But I am convinced not everyone can use this effectively and is not a guaranteed win.
You didn't understand my post properly. A low tier garbage player is not going to win 15% of the time against a top tier player. Maybe 1-2% of the time at best. With Swagplay that can go up to 15% of the time because of how luck based Swagplay can cause games to be. Numbers obviously made up for example purposes.
I've been mulling over a few viable SwagPlay counters and I think I found another interesting option... while it is extremely limited, it does show that with some thought, any and all play styles can be countered.
And no, this is not Numel -_-.
The Pokemon is Manaphy. If one could effectively employ Heart Swap onto a Manaphy set, especially in conjunction with Heal Bell (and on a Bold Defensive Set most likely), one could use Heart Swap to not only remove the increase to Atk, but send it back to the opponent, effectively nerfing the damage done by any Fould Play. And when they are most likely forced to switch out due to the horrible damage, Heal Bell or an attacking move can be employed to either strike the switch in or remove the chronic Paralysis that has probably spread through your team.
While I know this isn't a hard counter, it is a possible strategy against it. And it shows that instead of people going and screaming for a ban, we should use the brains the great cosmos gave us and seek out viable checks and counters to these types of strategies.
And no, this is not Numel -_-.
The Pokemon is Manaphy. If one could effectively employ Heart Swap onto a Manaphy set, especially in conjunction with Heal Bell (and on a Bold Defensive Set most likely), one could use Heart Swap to not only remove the increase to Atk, but send it back to the opponent, effectively nerfing the damage done by any Fould Play. And when they are most likely forced to switch out due to the horrible damage, Heal Bell or an attacking move can be employed to either strike the switch in or remove the chronic Paralysis that has probably spread through your team.
While I know this isn't a hard counter, it is a possible strategy against it. And it shows that instead of people going and screaming for a ban, we should use the brains the great cosmos gave us and seek out viable checks and counters to these types of strategies.
I'm afraid freeze is always 10% and wont get much support behind its ban unless they add more ice attacks to replace ice beam. However depending on how this discussion goes Serene Grace might get suspected.
- Status