Just a nitpick, but what status are you trying to avoid by running an orb? Paralysis doesn't matter that much and sleep is easier to handle in general because Spore's mechanics have changed. Just switch in on a Toxic/Will-o-wisp to be a permanent absorber and have the benefit of Leftovers.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I was giving an example on a way to avoid status but i agree with leftovers being the better option, life orb is also a good option since you dont get recoil. Only if you have magic gaurd as your ability.
Am I wrong in saying that keldeo has less usage this gen? Check the charts yourself I already have.
And while I think your right in that keldeo is a good component of offensive this cores this gen, its not as effective anymore.
Again I'm not wrong. As a stand alone Pokemon its not as strong, and within cores it's work doesn't stand out as much as it used to.
Also if a word or phrasing in my posts seems of, excuse my idiotic autocorrect, it thinks "again" is "against" and by "not" I meant "joy"
Usage has little bearing on that, whether the Pokémon is good. It should be evident in the stats from two months ago, in which terrible Pokémon like Donphan and Galvantula are OU, but titans of the tier like Kyurem-B are not.
1. Usage is not an argument. Landorus-I, Manaphy, Deoxys-S and Kyurem-B are in A+ but are BL. Keldeo is UU and how are its cores not effective this generation? No evidence has been provided by you. Seems like a bad argument coming from your side. Keldeo / Landorus-I / Tyranitar hasn't suffered a bit. Talonflame, Greninja, Aegislash, Noivern, Chesnaught, Goodra, and Diggersby don't make this core useless at all. No Mega Evo except Mega Pinsir threaten this core either. This core is effective.
2. 129 SpA and 108 Spe isn't strong? The speed benchmark was 108 last generation and the benchmark this generation is 101. It only got faster. "Keldeo's work doesn't stand out as much as it used to be". It got even better since it can threaten Greninja, Mega Aerodactyl (assuming it's Scarf), etc. Also, I don't know how it does less work. Landorus-I and Keldeo have opposite counters. It does the same thing like it did last generation. -__-
1. As other have said, usage is not an argument
2. Your right in saying it is not as effective. That is why it is not S-rank. However it has not fallen so much that it should go in A-. It is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, and so few 'mons can actually switch in on it.
3. If you actually read posts by Halcyon., Gary2346, and others, you would see that Keldeo has only gotten more powerful, since the move to bulky offense means it runs Specs far better than Scarf now. On top of that, a lot of its old switchins have fallen out of favor, like Jellicent, Celebi, and Toxicroak
4. There are so many good cores with Keldeo this gen. It works well with Pursuit Aegi, Land-I, Bisharp, and others.
Keldeo deserves A rank
Nominating Bisharp and Mega Tyranitar for A+ Rank
Bisharp has so many things going for it this generation and I feel like it has more than enough qualifications to validate for A+ Rank.
Defiant is simply amazing in a generation where stat-decreasing moves/abilities are everywhere (Sticky Web, Defog, Intimidate, etc). With an above average base 125 Attack stat, being able to gain an instantaneous +2 Attack is simply too good to pass up. Bisharp is one of the few Pokémon in XY OU who is capable of placing so much offensive pressure on an opposing team, the opposition may struggle to place Sticky Webs or utilize Defog freely. While Bisharp is not a perfect counter, Bisharp is one of Aegislash's few offensive nightmares because Defiant ignores King Shield.
Steel and Dark typing is phenomenal both offensively and defensively. STAB Sucker Punch + STAB Knock Off is a godsend for this chess piece while its STAB Iron Head allows Bisharp to handle all of these new Fairy Type Pokémon that like to inhabit OU.
Resisting Dragon, Ghost, Ice, Steel, Psychic, Grass and Rock provides great switch-in opportunities on things like Choiced Terrakion and Aegislash's Shadow Ball.
Bisharp is also fairly versatile. It's most common LO+SD variant is a handful for most teams especially when Bisharp's counters have been removed. AV+Pursuit is a lesser used but still just as viable moveset that makes Bisharp a great trapping Pokémon. Finally Substitute variants can bypass Bisharp's usual offensive checks, allowing Bisharp to wreck some more havoc.
Mega Tyranitar is hands down one of the most threatening MEVos in XY OU and is the best Dragon Dance user, second only to Mega Charizard X. Speaking from extensive usage, Mega Tyranitar is an extremely consistent and reliable win-condition for many games due to its amazing offensive coverage and simply godly defensive stats. A Mega Tyranitar is hard to revenge-kill if the opposition lacks a Scarfed Fighting Type or Technician Boosted Mach Punch. Mega Tyranitar can stomach Banded Bullet Punch from Scizor and also Banded Aqua Jet from Azumarill while eating up Life Orb Greninja's Hydro Pump. These are simply testament to Mega Tyranitar's impressive bulk. Easily being the second most threatening Dragon Dance sweeper in OU due to Mega Tyranitar's sheer power, bulk and set-up opportunities just littered throughout OU, I feel like Mega Tyranitar has what it takes to rank in A+
I agree that chesnaught is pretty cool. Being able to counter Aegislash is always great in my eyes, but I think you're over-exaggerating him a little bit. Garchomp likes to carry Fire Blast a lot, and if its mega it will hit that much harder. How are you manhandling azumarill when you're weak to Play Rough? And a Non-mega gyarados with either Sub or Taunt can win against Chesnaught eventually. Landorus like to carry psychic and Sludge Wave, and Gengar can also carry Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb. Everything else I agree. I can definitely confirm that he carries more weight than ferrothorn does, deserves B+ at the least.
Nominating Bisharp and Mega Tyranitar for A+ Rank
Mega Tyranitar is hands down one of the most threatening MEVos in XY OU and is the best Dragon Dance user, second only to Mega Charizard X. Speaking from extensive usage, Mega Tyranitar is an extremely consistent and reliable win-condition for many games due to its amazing offensive coverage and simply godly defensive stats. A Mega Tyranitar is hard to revenge-kill if the opposition lacks a Scarfed Fighting Type or Technician Boosted Mach Punch. Mega Tyranitar can stomach Banded Bullet Punch from Scizor and also Banded Aqua Jet from Azumarill while eating up Life Orb Greninja's Hydro Pump. These are simply testament to Mega Tyranitar's impressive bulk. Easily being the second most threatening Dragon Dance sweeper in OU due to Mega Tyranitar's sheer power, bulk and set-up opportunities just littered throughout OU, I feel like Mega Tyranitar has what it takes to rank in A+
Can certainly agree that DD mega Tyranitar is a monster. Jeez, I made a warstory on him, back in the age of mega kang. I hopped on the bandwagon for this guy before most people, and for good reason. He sets up on a ton of things, and remember, its taking moves like banded bullet punch from scizor and banded aqua jets from azumarill with no investment at all. It's ridiculous how bulky this guy is, and with the new buff to speed, at +1 he outspeeds everything relevant that is unboosted. Either move just him up to A+ or move tyranitar up to A+ too, because he's just too good for A.
As for the keldeo argument, we can relate this right back to mega tyranitar too.
Specs keldeo, in particular (don't run scarf guys, its not great) forces in practically everything mega tyranitar sets up on (except mega venusaur, but he won't appreciate sand). There's your perfectly fine offensive core right there.
As said previously, usage doesn't mean anything unless you're talking about SPL usage stats. And if you go see those, keldeo will be skyhigh, I guarantee it.
Keldeo's counters in particular, are very easy to work around. Lati@s are pretty easy to pursuit trap, especially when you have things like Aegislash, AV scizor, AV bisharp, and AV tyrantar about. Mega Venusaur is easy to handle with pokemon like Talonflame and Landorus. This goes back to our wonderful, tried and true, Lando/Ttar/Pony core that was mentioned, which still works fine for the most part. It's pretty much irreplaceable in these cores.
Keldeo for A.
I'd like to nominate Suicune for B+ Rank.
The lack of perma-Rain meant that teams no longer stack up on Water-immune threats, so Suicune can freely spam Scald without worry of being walled. It has great bulk and Calm Mind, which lets it set up on even Pokemon that hit it super effectively: the likes of Rotom-W and even Mega Venusaur will soon be left behind in the dust as their attacks bounce off Suicune, while Rotom-W without Thunderbolt cannot stop Suicune since it constantly forces itself out before it can do any lasting damage. Goodra without Dragon Tail and the pink blobs are totally helpless before it, and even Unaware Clefable does not like being distracted by burns, not to mention being Pressure stalled by Suicune is a very real thing that can happen to walls. If anything else, setting up on Aegislash is not a feat many Pokemon can boast.
Perhaps the real benefactor of Suicune is that RestTalk mechanics are not complete shit anymore, so it won't be staying asleep too long should it get forced out in the midst of it. So what if Suicune finds itself in the rare instances where it cannot set up? Well just keep Scalding and burn stuff, it still is one of the most spammable moves in the game, and between the burn + RestTalk, Suicune can usually outlast its more offensive switch-ins, such as Thundurus, Ferrothorn, Latios, and Kyurem-B.
Pros - Can hardly be walled, difficult-to-exploit typing, has Calm Mind to slow down special attackers & Scald to halt physical attackers
Cons - Needs to setup which makes it vulnerable to phasing, reliant on RestTalk
The lack of perma-Rain meant that teams no longer stack up on Water-immune threats, so Suicune can freely spam Scald without worry of being walled. It has great bulk and Calm Mind, which lets it set up on even Pokemon that hit it super effectively: the likes of Rotom-W and even Mega Venusaur will soon be left behind in the dust as their attacks bounce off Suicune, while Rotom-W without Thunderbolt cannot stop Suicune since it constantly forces itself out before it can do any lasting damage. Goodra without Dragon Tail and the pink blobs are totally helpless before it, and even Unaware Clefable does not like being distracted by burns, not to mention being Pressure stalled by Suicune is a very real thing that can happen to walls. If anything else, setting up on Aegislash is not a feat many Pokemon can boast.
Perhaps the real benefactor of Suicune is that RestTalk mechanics are not complete shit anymore, so it won't be staying asleep too long should it get forced out in the midst of it. So what if Suicune finds itself in the rare instances where it cannot set up? Well just keep Scalding and burn stuff, it still is one of the most spammable moves in the game, and between the burn + RestTalk, Suicune can usually outlast its more offensive switch-ins, such as Thundurus, Ferrothorn, Latios, and Kyurem-B.
Pros - Can hardly be walled, difficult-to-exploit typing, has Calm Mind to slow down special attackers & Scald to halt physical attackers
Cons - Needs to setup which makes it vulnerable to phasing, reliant on RestTalk
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FINALLY!!!
I would like to nominate Hippowdon for A- Rank. It has bout the same bulk as Skarmory with the ability to take special attacks much better, is a phaser and SR setter, has acces to reliable recovery, can take on Char X even if its boosted and has excellent base attack for something that's designed to just take hits.
I have merely summarized Hippowdon's assests, as he has a great many more which can be brought up by others, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on that.
I would also like to get your thoughts on if Zapdos is deserving of moving up ti A- Rank as well. True he has lost the option of walling Mega Lucario (roughly I guess) but still is an excellent Waller depending on the need. He may not be as deserving as Hippowdon, but I would still like to know your thoughts.
I would like to nominate Hippowdon for A- Rank. It has bout the same bulk as Skarmory with the ability to take special attacks much better, is a phaser and SR setter, has acces to reliable recovery, can take on Char X even if its boosted and has excellent base attack for something that's designed to just take hits.
I have merely summarized Hippowdon's assests, as he has a great many more which can be brought up by others, but I just wanted to get the ball rolling on that.
I would also like to get your thoughts on if Zapdos is deserving of moving up ti A- Rank as well. True he has lost the option of walling Mega Lucario (roughly I guess) but still is an excellent Waller depending on the need. He may not be as deserving as Hippowdon, but I would still like to know your thoughts.
I thought this time would never come...a good time to nominate Hydreigon for B Rank again.
The intruduction of Fairies and the special nerf did hurt Hydreigon's viability a bit, but the Dark Typ Buff allows it to spam that Dark Pulse without much worry. What makes Hydreigon so threatening is, that it has no 'true' counter thanks to its insane movepool. In other words, nothing really can safely switch into that thing. Looking at Hydreigon's stats it has decent speed and bulk but great offense which allows it to go mixed as well.
Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, Surf
Physical Moves: Outrage, Crunch, Superpower, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Head Smash, U-Turn
Other Notable Moves: Thunderwave, Roost, Substitute, Work Up
Not to mention, Hydreigon can pull of a great number of different sets: Specs, SpecialScarf, Expert Belt, MixScarf, Life-Orb, Bulky Attacker.
I am sure there are more, but basicly it is really easy to fit into a team and it does its job realiable enough.
The intruduction of Fairies and the special nerf did hurt Hydreigon's viability a bit, but the Dark Typ Buff allows it to spam that Dark Pulse without much worry. What makes Hydreigon so threatening is, that it has no 'true' counter thanks to its insane movepool. In other words, nothing really can safely switch into that thing. Looking at Hydreigon's stats it has decent speed and bulk but great offense which allows it to go mixed as well.
Special Moves: Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse, Earth Power, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, Surf
Physical Moves: Outrage, Crunch, Superpower, Earthquake, Iron Tail, Head Smash, U-Turn
Other Notable Moves: Thunderwave, Roost, Substitute, Work Up
Not to mention, Hydreigon can pull of a great number of different sets: Specs, SpecialScarf, Expert Belt, MixScarf, Life-Orb, Bulky Attacker.
I am sure there are more, but basicly it is really easy to fit into a team and it does its job realiable enough.
I don't need to repeat myself.
Nominating Scolipede for A- (or at least to move up to B+).
Scolipede obviously has a great movepool, speed tier, ability and is a champ on Baton Pass Teams, but the reason it could/should move up is that it's also actually a very potent attacker, revenge killer and anti-lead because it's one of the only ways to reliably outspeed and OHKO Deoxys-D before it can lay hazards down on your side of the field, and thus is a very powerful tool against those degenerate Hyper-Offense hazard-core teams. Against such teams, there is barely a spare moment or even the ability to spin or defog the hazards away, so being able to prevent them from going down altogether while starting 6-5 has been excellent.
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 307-367 (100.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This gives Scoli a useful niche indeed, but it also goes beyond that; with a set of Mega Horn, Earthquake, Rock Slide and Protect, it's able to 1HKO a number of other common pokemon in the metagame (including many A+ and S level threats) such as Charizard-Y, Heatran, Latios/Latias, Thundurus-I and the list goes on. Scoli can also be pretty unpredictable, being able to run a good number of different moves which can all accomplish decent things, such as laying down Spikes, Toxic Spikes or Baton Passing a speed boost after you've KO'd a target and they bring in a check/counter for it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92325562
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92295042
I also agree with Punchshroom; CroCune for B+. For the reasons he stated.
Scolipede obviously has a great movepool, speed tier, ability and is a champ on Baton Pass Teams, but the reason it could/should move up is that it's also actually a very potent attacker, revenge killer and anti-lead because it's one of the only ways to reliably outspeed and OHKO Deoxys-D before it can lay hazards down on your side of the field, and thus is a very powerful tool against those degenerate Hyper-Offense hazard-core teams. Against such teams, there is barely a spare moment or even the ability to spin or defog the hazards away, so being able to prevent them from going down altogether while starting 6-5 has been excellent.
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 307-367 (100.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This gives Scoli a useful niche indeed, but it also goes beyond that; with a set of Mega Horn, Earthquake, Rock Slide and Protect, it's able to 1HKO a number of other common pokemon in the metagame (including many A+ and S level threats) such as Charizard-Y, Heatran, Latios/Latias, Thundurus-I and the list goes on. Scoli can also be pretty unpredictable, being able to run a good number of different moves which can all accomplish decent things, such as laying down Spikes, Toxic Spikes or Baton Passing a speed boost after you've KO'd a target and they bring in a check/counter for it.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92325562
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92295042
I also agree with Punchshroom; CroCune for B+. For the reasons he stated.
I'd also like to nominate Hippowdon for A-. Hippowdon has some great natural bulk, with a defensive spread of 108/118/72, Hippowdon can easily tank hits from some of the tiers best physical attackers when fully invested, such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and plenty of others. With a specially defensive spread, Hippowdon can also take attacks from some of the tier best special attackers quite easily, such as Aegislash and Thundurus. Combine this with access to Stealth Rock, Slack Off, Whirlwind, and Sand Stream for wearing down the opponent, and you have a great defensive wall on your hands.
I also support people the people who have mentioned Suicune for B+ and Zapdos for A-, for the reasons stated.
I also support people the people who have mentioned Suicune for B+ and Zapdos for A-, for the reasons stated.
Mega Medicham for A- rank. With the banning of Mega Lucario, who could do everything Mega Medicham could and then some, the opportunity cost of using it is way lower. Y-zard and Mega Garchomp, the most comparable wall breakers to Mega Medicham, are certainly strong but are 4x weak to stealth rock and require sand support, respectively. Very few things in the meta can safely switch in; Aegislash can (unless Medicham has Fire Punch,) Slowbro can (sans Thunder Punch,) Cofagrigus can but has no recovery, Dusclops can (but is a piece of shit, also no recovery,) the only things able to consistently wall Medicham over the course of a match is Mew, Sableye, and Cresselia. Some other things probably can but you get my point, walling Medicham requires some very niche stuff or Aegislash. Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Hippowdon and all other usual dedicated physical walls are 2HKOed. Ridiculously solid cores like Heatran+M-Venusaur+Rotom-W are similarly dismantled.
Medicham can also use Baton Pass to act as an offensive pivot. In the event the opponent has Aegislash or some other bulky ghost/psychic, Medicham can easily lure it in and then use Baton Pass on the switch to Bisharp or some other strong Dark-type attacker. Pursuit is especially helpful.
Mega Heracross for B+ rank. Similar to Medicham, it's an incredibly good wall breaker that has less power and speed than Medicham, but better bulk and coverage. It also does very well against Deosharp teams, being one of extremely few things able to OHKO Deo-D and also checking Bisharp and Aegislash.
I also agree with pretty much everything posted so far.
Medicham can also use Baton Pass to act as an offensive pivot. In the event the opponent has Aegislash or some other bulky ghost/psychic, Medicham can easily lure it in and then use Baton Pass on the switch to Bisharp or some other strong Dark-type attacker. Pursuit is especially helpful.
Mega Heracross for B+ rank. Similar to Medicham, it's an incredibly good wall breaker that has less power and speed than Medicham, but better bulk and coverage. It also does very well against Deosharp teams, being one of extremely few things able to OHKO Deo-D and also checking Bisharp and Aegislash.
I also agree with pretty much everything posted so far.
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I would like to nominate Zygarde for C+ rank.
Actually his lack of reliable healing moves make his tank job a bit hard. Moreover it has a poorer movepool and worse type and abilities than goodra which is in rank B- and has the same problem: no reliable recovery.
About its offensive roles it can have : it can effectively use a dragon dance set without fearing a thunder wave, but it still lack speed, and coverage moves in a meta where everyone try to run a counter/check for DD charizard x or DD dragonite. The problem it has with its coverage moves is solved in the salamence movepool, a pokemon with good abilities, better speed and attacks, similar weakness, which can run DD set, or more defensive role with defog+intimidate, and which is C+ ranked.
What about a coil set: First it can't do as a crocune because its 2 stabs has common immunities, moreover it has a *4 ice weakness that is almost unacceptable for this role, afterall it looks like a well known pokemon named snorlax: good bulk, curse set similar to coil, bad coverage moves as ghost are immune to its stab; that same snorlax which is in C rank.
We still can say, the fact it can run several roles will allow it an extra rank but i disagree when finally thos roles are all running around physically moves as earthquake and outrage that can be easly checked by a single same way. That is why i found the Zygarde B rank a bit surprising.
Actually his lack of reliable healing moves make his tank job a bit hard. Moreover it has a poorer movepool and worse type and abilities than goodra which is in rank B- and has the same problem: no reliable recovery.
About its offensive roles it can have : it can effectively use a dragon dance set without fearing a thunder wave, but it still lack speed, and coverage moves in a meta where everyone try to run a counter/check for DD charizard x or DD dragonite. The problem it has with its coverage moves is solved in the salamence movepool, a pokemon with good abilities, better speed and attacks, similar weakness, which can run DD set, or more defensive role with defog+intimidate, and which is C+ ranked.
What about a coil set: First it can't do as a crocune because its 2 stabs has common immunities, moreover it has a *4 ice weakness that is almost unacceptable for this role, afterall it looks like a well known pokemon named snorlax: good bulk, curse set similar to coil, bad coverage moves as ghost are immune to its stab; that same snorlax which is in C rank.
We still can say, the fact it can run several roles will allow it an extra rank but i disagree when finally thos roles are all running around physically moves as earthquake and outrage that can be easly checked by a single same way. That is why i found the Zygarde B rank a bit surprising.
And yet, Zygarde has something that none of those pokemon have, coil and glare. His sub coil sets require support yes, but they are very impressive. Also, his glare + dragon tail sets do a pretty amazing job of spreading around the paralysis love while dealing damage. I'm not even sure if his DD set is worth mentioning because I don't think I'd ever use it over Dragonite of Gyarados, but his other sets are much better than C+.
Just to put it in context, Salamence is ranked so low because of how its outclassed by Charizard and is easily walled by common fairies. Zygarde is easily the best coil sweeper, and there's really not much that can take its edge quake when mixed with the accuracy boost of coil.
It's a weird pokemon, that much is obvious. Its special bulk is too shallow for it to have a purely defensive niche. But its atk and spe are both good enough that if you get its boosts from a physical attacker, it can do quite a bit. C+ is too low for it, though B might be too generous given its flaws and how other pokes of similar viability have fallen as well. I'd put it in B-.
Now, i'm nominating Blissey for C/C+.
Most people agree that choosing Blissey over its sister is rarely an easy thing to do. Sure it gets lefties, but eviolite pretty much trumps all. Between its laughable physical bulk in a very physical metagame, poor damage output, stiff competition in special tanks that can do its job almost as well but with some muscle added on, and the questionable worth of a special wall at all at this point, I don't see why it's ranked so high
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Speaking of Blissey, Chansey for A.
It's the best mixed wall in the entire game, it pretty much has to be treated as A-rank material by definition. Merely having her on your team means you can laugh at any and all special attackers not named Keldeo for the most part, and it even has very respectable physical bulk to boot. When partnered with something like Mandibuzz, you basically have a way to not only pivot out of nearly any attacker, but also take them down easily as well. Chansey just wears special attackers down with Toxic/Seismic Toss with her eyes closed, or cripples incoming physical sweepers looking for a free turn to boost with Thunder Wave. She's virtually strictly better than her big sister, so moving up into the A section to reflect that seems like a no-brainer at this point.
It's the best mixed wall in the entire game, it pretty much has to be treated as A-rank material by definition. Merely having her on your team means you can laugh at any and all special attackers not named Keldeo for the most part, and it even has very respectable physical bulk to boot. When partnered with something like Mandibuzz, you basically have a way to not only pivot out of nearly any attacker, but also take them down easily as well. Chansey just wears special attackers down with Toxic/Seismic Toss with her eyes closed, or cripples incoming physical sweepers looking for a free turn to boost with Thunder Wave. She's virtually strictly better than her big sister, so moving up into the A section to reflect that seems like a no-brainer at this point.
I would like to argue Volcarona for A rank.One reason I would like to see it in A rank is because it sets up on aegis pretty well,because it resists sacred sword,shadow ball hits it on the higher defensive stat and volcarona could have boosted before hand,and the weak AF shadow sneak.Another reason it should be A rank is because it has a distinct advantage over some other setup sweepers because it is bulky and it has a boosting attacking STAB move,which means that if left unchecked volcarona can destroy your team without much effort.Some other reasons I could say it is A rank is because it can run some decent coverage options to hit Heatran,and one more is that if it runs HP ground it can singlehandedly destroy the main core on stall teams,rotom-w,heatran,and mega venusaur.
The issue I have with blissey < chansey is after knock off chansey is considerably weaker than blissey.
See, I don't like this argument at all. Why is Blissey or Chansey your switch-in to Knock Off? Surely there are better things on any team to take a Knock Off than the Pokemon with base 5 Defense or whatever.
That's true but should something so reliant on it's item be ranked so high when knock off is so common.
We had, like, ten pages of discussion on Chansey vs. Blissey.
Nearly everything that commonly carries Knock Off beats Blissey anyway. The only times where Knock Off is a huge concern is stuff that only uses it as a utility move, like Tentacruel.
Without its item, Chansey is just a slightly worse Blissey anyway. Their stats are very similar.
But neither Chansey, nor Blissey likes to switch into anything that commonly runs knock off. If knock off doesn't prevent them from switching into things they reliably wall, than it essentially doesn't matter how item dependent they are. The same argument goes for trick, but rotom-w is pretty much the only thing you'll see using trick now.
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