Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Merritt]

Totally copying Jac's style.

Larvesta - A or B (B)

Larvesta, although it still has the most powerful U-turner in the tier, is unfortunately not A rank any longer. With the fall of gligar, hazards became far more usable, and while all VoltTurners hate hazards, Larvesta despises them, being unable to switch in more than once if rocks are up. It's not fast enough to have it be worth investing in speed unless you plan to run scarf, and with scarf you can't run morning sun, the only way Larvesta can overcome rocks.

With Ponyta as a superior option for burning, unless you really, really care about switching in on ground type moves, Larvesta has a niche on some teams, but is not A-rank material.

Slowpoke - A or B (A)

Despite the Rise of Knock Off™,Slowpoke is still an extremely viable defensive threat in today's meta. The other walls people use are, by and large, normal types such as Munchlax or Lickitung. While normal is by no means a bad typing, Slowpoke's psychic/water typing is still slightly superior in today's meta. Even though psychic makes Slowpoke a bad matchup against Misdreavus, Pawniard, and Murkrow for obvious reasons, and Mienfoo can simply U-turn away to do damage, it's a fantastic wall for Meditite. Although most people might say that Meditite will always run Thunder Punch to deal with Slowpoke, I've found a fairly even split between Fire Punch and it's electric brother, due to the existence of Honedge.

Slowpoke gets two major things that make it a fantastic wall– Regenerator and Slack Off. Slowpoke heals often and well, making it a much more effective wall than others, who have to die when they must take a turn to heal. Slowpoke's movepool also sets it apart from others, as it can not only inflict paralysis on enemies to weak them for the rest of the team, but can also use the uncommon yawn to force a switch, giving slowpoke the chance to heal, set up, or switch. I personally have seen a Belly Drum slowpoke used to great effect, as unlike other users, it can set up under trick room and then switch out after it ends, while not having to use berry juice due to regenerator. I'll be the first to admit that Slowpoke isn't for everyone, but it's still more useful than a B-rank at the moment.

Torchic - A or B (B)

Baton Pass is ew. But in all honesty, Torchic is just not good enough to be used as an A-rank Pokemon. Unless you intend to just send speed boosts to teammates, Torchic is extremely vulnerable during set-up turns, being easily OHKOed. In addition, taunt makes it completely useless if you predict the turn they set up and don't use protect.

Just... No. Protect also makes it set up bait, so it's actually extremely limited to what you can actually prepare to pass on. Fire typing and the stealth rock weakness is just the icing on the proverbial cake. When used right, it's a dangerous threat, but so is Clamperl.

Drilbur - A or B (A)

I feel that Drilbur is actually the most effective anti-lead and hazard remover in the tier. Vullaby has to watch out for Pawniard for defogging (you know, one of the most common Pokemon in the entire tier?), while Drilbur earthquakes, spins, and doesn't afraid of anything. People claim that it's outclassed by Vullaby, but can Vullaby remove the hazard setters? Drilbur can. Dwebble with sturdy? Mold Breaker dgaf. Pretty much all rock setters in general? Either Earthquake or Rock Slide is super effective, even on Pawniard. Your precious Trubbish? Your garbage bag will split open under the wrath of the earth!

But honestly, although Drilbur doesn't have a lot of sets, it's extremely effective at what it does, and can sweep teams that aren't prepared for the revenge of the spinning mole.

Cottonee - A or B (???)

I honestly don't know. I've used it, with mixed results, and seen it used with mixed results. Sometimes it's fantastic, resulting in another team member sweeping after you use memento or something that allows for sweeping, while other times it just gives the opponent a free kill. It's main use, I found, is stopping setup sweeper with encore, but even tirtouga, the main thing it gets used to stop, can aqua jet and get encored into a fairly decent move instead of shell smash. Cottonee has varied from A rank to C rank for me, so I can't speak definitely on it.

Shieldon - C or D (D)

Shieldon sucks and is inferior to pretty much anything that has sturdy. The only thing it has going for it is metal burst and an immunity to poison type attacks. If you really want to abuse sturdy for the purpose of doing more damage, Dwebble gets counter, which is infinitely more useful than Metal Burst considering that knock off is the most popular move in the meta. Then we get things like Drilbur and hazards. When two types are able to murderize you, you're not a very good option at all.

Mantyke - B or C (C)

The special defense is nice, and it makes a decent teammate for chinchou, but its physical bulk and 4x electric weakness aren't fun. At all. Not for many teams, honestly.

Shellder - B or C (C)

I brought this up earlier, you can see my earlier post for full thoughts.

Honedge C or B (C)

The ghost, despite having the best neutral coverage ever, is slow and both Dark and Ghost weak. Even though ghost is the best type, Honedge is just outclassed, unable to really make up for its pathetic special defense, and requiring setup to be fast enough to utilize its attack.

Darumaka- B or C (D)

Why do people even use this thing when you've got so many better fire types out there? If you want to see how lucky you are I guess you could give it a scarf or a band and have it hit like a truck, but Darumaka's frail and sometimes manages to miss the broad side of the barn and then gets killed.

It doesn't even deserve C, frankly.

Lileep - B or C (B)

Use it more. Walls all of the things. I think we can all agree that it's not a C-rank. Of course, I'll list my reasons if someone really wants me to.

 

[tcr]

Lolwut? Torchic is seriously being considered for B rank? Torchic+Meditite is one of the best offensive cores available. Eviolite actually gives it a really nice bulk, often only being 3hkoed by fighting types and other things. Being Rocks weak is no way to categorize something as B rank, as Defog is till prevalent even with Pawniard everywhere. Its extremely easy to set up a +2/+2 and then Baton Pass to somethign else. Yeah, like always theres ris involved. You might switch into Carvahna expecting a Knock Off, and get Drain Punched instead. Or you might switch Meditite into the Drain Punch and basically have won already. If the user of the Torchic simply uses Protect then set up then Protect then BP, they are a bad player. Besides which, Prediction is absolutely NO basis for determining the rank of a pokemon, considering for one prediction is literally the WORST way to win a game (as it is essentially flipping a coin a couple times). Jac you can call it a Pure support mon all you want, but thats literally what it is, and thats all it needs to be. Dwebble is literally a Pure support mon with its hazard stacking set. Yeah you can Shell Smash, but in the end its simply a hazard stacker for others to sweep. Ferroseed is simply a pure support mon. You could run some weird curse set or w/e, but in the end its simply a support mon. It is the best support mon available for offensive teams, as hazardstacking is not a reliable strategy at all. Spritzee is literally a "pure support mon." Like, you can't say it isn't A rank because it is only support when there are at least 3 other pokemon that are all support, and 6 others that can be argued. A rank and if you disagre tag me and I will "persuade" you

 

[chimp]

Lolwut? Torchic is seriously being considered for B rank? Torchic+Meditite is one of the best offensive cores available. Eviolite actually gives it a really nice bulk, often only being 3hkoed by fighting types and other things. Being Rocks weak is no way to categorize something as B rank, as Defog is till prevalent even with Pawniard everywhere. Its extremely easy to set up a +2/+2 and then Baton Pass to somethign else. Yeah, like always theres ris involved. You might switch into Carvahna expecting a Knock Off, and get Drain Punched instead. Or you might switch Meditite into the Drain Punch and basically have won already. If the user of the Torchic simply uses Protect then set up then Protect then BP, they are a bad player. Besides which, Prediction is absolutely NO basis for determining the rank of a pokemon, considering for one prediction is literally the WORST way to win a game (as it is essentially flipping a coin a couple times). Jac you can call it a Pure support mon all you want, but thats literally what it is, and thats all it needs to be. Dwebble is literally a Pure support mon with its hazard stacking set. Yeah you can Shell Smash, but in the end its simply a hazard stacker for others to sweep. Ferroseed is simply a pure support mon. You could run some weird curse set or w/e, but in the end its simply a support mon. It is the best support mon available for offensive teams, as hazardstacking is not a reliable strategy at all. Spritzee is literally a "pure support mon." Like, you can't say it isn't A rank because it is only support when there are at least 3 other pokemon that are all support, and 6 others that can be argued. A rank and if you disagre tag me and I will "persuade" you

The problem I have with Torchic is that, opposed to Dwebble or Ferroseed or Spritzee, its entire strategy revolves around the enemy's team. The strategy is super volatile; Torchic can't heal itself, so if you incorrectly predict, get phazed, etc, its pretty much over. Predictability is only part of the problem, however this problem stems from Baton Pass being the only thing it can really do. Basically, I feel that Baton Passing is just not worth it in the long run. If you're not running a team dedicated to the strategy, then I feel as if you are wasting a teamslot and missing a pokemon that can consistently support the team throughout the match. If you are running a dedicated BP team, then you are putting a lot of pressure on poor Torchic, and as I mentioned above it has a hard time consistently performing.

Also remember that Torchic itself requires a good deal of support to work. Defog/Rapid Spin and a cleric are atleast the minimum for what should be used alongside it. Torchic cannot wall or support or sweep all on its own. That is why I agree that Torchic should stay B. And remember that being in B rank doesn't mean its bad; it basically means that it can't be used as reliably as A mons. That said, torchic is definitely the best passer, but I think it should only be used on those archetypes, which IMO aren't overly effective.

 

[tcr]

The problem I have with Torchic is that, opposed to Dwebble or Ferroseed or Spritzee, its entire strategy revolves around the enemy's team.

Both Dwebble and Ferroseed depend on the opponent NOT having a Defog user. By the opponent having something like Vullaby, you as a player are forced into many tight spots. Do you switch in to Pawniard? What if Drilbur? then Dwebble literally becomes worse than useless, because its job cannot be done effectively. Same with Ferroseed, as Ferroseed is not invulnerable and WILL die due to the offensive meta. Meditite, Mienfoo, Scraggy, Ponyta, Heat Wave Murkrow, Larvesta, etc etc. Spritzee is different in support, but if you can repeatedly force the opponent into VERY risky scenarios then you effectively stop their attempt at wishpassing. I.e. your strategies ALL revolve around the enemy's team, and I would argue that Torchic's Baton Passing is the least reliant being that all you need is something that can't OHKO Torchic.

The strategy is super volatile; Torchic can't heal itself, so if you incorrectly predict, get phazed, etc, its pretty much over. Predictability is only part of the problem, however this problem stems from Baton Pass being the only thing it can really do.

Lol? If your opponent get one defog in its pretty much over for dwebble. if you get one defog in its pretty much over for ferroseed. The meta is too offensive for either to be dependable walls and reliably set up hazards, like Deoxys D, Skarmory, Landorus, etc etc in OU. If you predict what pokemon you send in for getting the wish then spritzee becomes useless. Not to mention that it is "predictable" as you keep saying Torchic is. First let me set this straight. Prediction is NOT RELIABLE in any form. Literally it is a flip of a coin. Risk V Reward is different, Playing to your win condition is different, but PREDICTION SHOULD NEVER BE USED A) AS YOUR WAY TO WIN, and B) TO DETERMINE A POKEMON"S "TIERING". Literally over half of A tier pokemon, and almost all of S tier, and almost all of B tier, are "predictable." Pawniard? Its probably going to Knock Off. Murkrow? Probably going to Brave Bird. Spritzee? Probably going to Wish. Slowpoke? Scald or Thunder Wave. Mienfoo? Fake Out+Knock Off or U-turn. Saying Torchic is "predictable" is absolutely stupid, as unless you always run a phazer (name one phazer outside Vullaby or lolhippo). Most normal people don't always run a dedicated phazer.

Basically, I feel that Baton Passing is just not worth it in the long run.

Your subjective opinion really doesn't belong here to say the least.

If you're not running a team dedicated to the strategy, then I feel as if you are wasting a teamslot and missing a pokemon that can consistently support the team throughout the match. If you are running a dedicated BP team, then you are putting a lot of pressure on poor Torchic, and as I mentioned above it has a hard time consistently performing.

It really doesn't have that hard of a time performing. Literally unless you see Vullaby o some weird phazer, Torchic is ALWAYS first out. From there you set up and hopefully win. I can't say anything about Curse Torchic, which a lot of people make out to be a late ish game sweeper/passer, in which case you still really don't need a whole lot of support.

Also remember that Torchic itself requires a good deal of support to work. Defog/Rapid Spin and a cleric are atleast the minimum for what should be used alongside it. Torchic cannot wall or support or sweep all on its own. That is why I agree that Torchic should stay B. And remember that being in B rank doesn't mean its bad; it basically means that it can't be used as reliably as A mons. That said, torchic is definitely the best passer, but I think it should only be used on those archetypes, which IMO aren't overly effective.

Its not supposed to sweep. its not supposed to wall. and lol you think Torchic can't support pokemon on its own? What do you not get that Torchic is supposed to be a stepping stool for fearsome sweepers, who might not have the best speed, or best attack? Pawniard loves it. Meditite love it. Timburr loves. literally any physical attacker not named Carvahna loves Torchic. It doesn't need Defog Rapid spin to be effective. Its a first turn pokemon. By that logic Dwebble needs Defog to be effective at its support role. t really doesn't need a cleric either. I don't think you get the point of Torchpass teams. You are equating them to Balanced teams, like Torchic is a regular pokemon like Mienfoo, or Amaura, or something else cute. Its solely a support pokemon, and it excells at its job at that. That is why I think it should be A tier, and like, not even be questioned about it. It is not, nor will it ever, be a wall or a sweeper on its own. Its not supposed to. Ferroseed sucks because it can't sweep on its own. Based on your logic this is a fair comparison to make, and I believe that you are smart enough to realize that that is bullshit.

 

[Wobbyble]

are you shitting me opinions about things are always going to be subjective, half the things here are at least 50% subjective lol

if the torchic users that you're playing always send out chic first, then i hate to break it to you but you're playing against bad chic users, objective fact

 

[Vileman]

Ok the deal with torchic its that its a baton passer with an excelent ability and a bulk thats not bad at all, getting boosts with it its incredibly easy and passing them its easy too due to the low amount of pokemon with taunt on the tier. Its a support pokemon who can tank even stab supper effective moves (It could live a EQ from gligar when max def, which is what i personally use) so its a cheap, and most of the time effective way to win. IMO it deserves A rank.

 

[tcr]

are you shitting me opinions about things are always going to be subjective, half the things here are at least 50% subjective lol

if the torchic users that you're playing always send out chic first, then i hate to break it to you but you're playing against bad chic users, objective fact

"I fell that Baton Pass is just not worth it in the long run"
Being as subjective as that statement doesn't belong in this thread. I don't believe Knock Off is viable. Suddenly Pawniard should not be S or A tier. Opinions about the validity of a strategy serve no purpose to further a point other than simply existing. For the record I think Knock Off is viable.

If you play differenly than that doesnt mean you are bad at playing. If I want to use a Sash Torchic and play it first turn that doesn't mean I'm bad at Baton Passing, it simply means I dont care enough to plan 15 turns ahead to set up a torchic sweep, and want to start punching holes or outright sweep. And actually that statement was very subjective, regardless if it is true or not.

 

[Merritt]

Going from what TCR said about leading with it, let's put it against the most popular hazard lead, Dwebble.

0 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

(It doesn't matter what attack stat it has, it's going to hit for the same damage)

So, not so secure after all. If you're not running curse, then you run a fairly significant chance to be OHKOed, considering that calculation is with three hits. All told, it's a 31.85811% chance to be OHKOed on all non-curse variants if they try to boost. That's one in three, and that's fairly unreliable.

(33.3 (chance of hitting 4 or 5 times, OHKO) +33.3 (chance of hitting 3 times) *.063 (chance to OHKO))*.9 (accuracy of Rock Blast)= 31.85811% chance to OHKO all told.

Of course, it could be not facing dwebble, or dwebble could not be running rock blast. But let's not count on that.

 

[skies]

Going from what TCR said about leading with it, let's put it against the most popular hazard lead, Dwebble.

0 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

(It doesn't matter what attack stat it has, it's going to hit for the same damage)

So, not so secure after all. If you're not running curse, then you run a fairly significant chance to be OHKOed, considering that calculation is with three hits. All told, it's a 31.85811% chance to be OHKOed on all non-curse variants if they try to boost. That's one in three, and that's fairly unreliable.

(33.3 (chance of hitting 4 or 5 times, OHKO) +33.3 (chance of hitting 3 times) *.063 (chance to OHKO))*.9 (accuracy of Rock Blast)= 31.85811% chance to OHKO all told.

Of course, it could be not facing dwebble, or dwebble could not be running rock blast. But let's not count on that.

0+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not an avid LC player, but my biggest problem with putting Torchic in A-Rank is the fact that it can only preform its job 1-3 times during a match due to both its SR weakness and slight reliance on Substitute to get Speed boost, both of which limit its longevity and the fact that the results that may occur when using it are inconsistent, unlike other support Pokemon such as Slowpoke and Spritzee, who can preform there role multiple times throughout the match with consistent results due to their access to reliable recovery.
EDIT:

Contributions and Corrections Work

C&C Work

Completed

[BW2 RU Exeggutor]

[BW2 NU Magcargo]

[BW2 RU Eelektross]

[BW2 Doubles Hydreigon]

[BW2 NU Heatmor]

[BW2 OU Magneton]
(BW2 RU Sunny Day Support)
(BW2 UU Offensive Stealth Rock)

(Doubles Analysis)

(Doubles Analysis)
(Doubles Garchomp)

(BW2 NU Revamp)

(UU Special Attacker)

(BW2 OU Analysis)
(BW Terrakion)
(XY OU Metagross)
(XY OU Keldeo)
(XY LC Wingull)
(XY OU Latias)

Current Projects:

(Doubles Scrafty)
(NU Solrock)
(BW Doubles Kyurem)
(Anti-lead Archeops)
(LC Magnemite)
(Doubles Rotom-H)

Rejected:
(BW2 OU Agility)

Community Projects:
(Assault Vest)

 

[Vileman]

Going from what TCR said about leading with it, let's put it against the most popular hazard lead, Dwebble.

0 Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

(It doesn't matter what attack stat it has, it's going to hit for the same damage)

So, not so secure after all. If you're not running curse, then you run a fairly significant chance to be OHKOed, considering that calculation is with three hits. All told, it's a 31.85811% chance to be OHKOed on all non-curse variants if they try to boost. That's one in three, and that's fairly unreliable.

(33.3 (chance of hitting 4 or 5 times, OHKO) +33.3 (chance of hitting 3 times) *.063 (chance to OHKO))*.9 (accuracy of Rock Blast)= 31.85811% chance to OHKO all told.

Of course, it could be not facing dwebble, or dwebble could not be running rock blast. But let's not count on that.

0+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Can we stop having posts like these please? I mean what kind of decent player would try to set up on a pokemon like dwebble who has a stab multi hit move???
This also goes for posts like "omg ferroseed its weak to fire it cant be a/b/ whatever!!!", pokes have weaknesses but you should also look at the positive sides as they usually (or in the cases worth debating) outweight the negatives.
So yeah, people wont be keeping murkrow vs rekt talk chinchou, or torchic vs a dwebble so stop calling out obvious weaknesses of pokemon when they can fare well/extremely well against most of the meta.

 

[tcr]

I'm not an avid LC player, but my biggest problem with putting Torchic in A-Rank is the fact that it can only preform its job a 1-3 times during a match due to both its SR weakness and slight reliance on Substitute to get Speed boost, both of which limit its longevity and the fact that the results that may occur when using it are inconsistent, unlike other support Pokemon such as Slowpoke and Spritzee, who can preform there role multiple times throughout the match with consistent results due to their access to reliable recovery.

The difference is that Slowpoke and Spritzee are meant to wall pokemon, or heal others., or both. Torchic is meant to basically give a free nuke to someone else. If a meditite gets to +2/+2, then it did its job. It doesnt need to end the sweep, it just needs to punch holes to allow others. If it performs its job once during a match then I'm fine with it,because it allowed me to get to Pawniard at +2/+2. Or it allowed me a meditite at +2/+2. Which quite honestly, is one of the scariest things to face since BD Swirl left. No its not a pivot. Not its not a sweeper. No its not a wall. Its literally pure support for another pokemon. its 4 extra moves that a pokemon can "have" if you take it in an abstract way.

 

[chimp]

The difference is that Slowpoke and Spritzee are meant to wall pokemon, or heal others., or both. Torchic is meant to basically give a free nuke to someone else. If a meditite gets to +2/+2, then it did its job. It doesnt need to end the sweep, it just needs to punch holes to allow others. If it performs its job once during a match then I'm fine with it,because it allowed me to get to Pawniard at +2/+2. Or it allowed me a meditite at +2/+2. Which quite honestly, is one of the scariest things to face since BD Swirl left. No its not a pivot. Not its not a sweeper. No its not a wall. Its literally pure support for another pokemon. its 4 extra moves that a pokemon can "have" if you take it in an abstract way.

I think its ok to be subjective if you can back it up. If you believe that Knock Off isn't useless and can back up your argument with viable facts, then all the power to you. Also, predictability IS important to factor in if the pokemon in question relies on the enemy incorrectly predicting. A giant reason why gligar was banned was because it had so many sets and was unpredictable.

That said, I'll admit I'm mostly wrong and that Torchic could be a candidate for A. But still its an extremely thin strategy. Its alot easier to WoW/SE hit the receiver than it is to Defog, especially with the Pawniard running around.

 

[Delver]

We need to tone down the hostility on the whole here. I think the torchic discussion isnt "Is it good" because its A) the only really relevant stat boosting baton passer in the format, B) speed boost makes it the most *reliable* stat boosting baton passer in the format, and C) Meditite is in the format, and even just speed boosts on that thing is scary. What we should be discussing is "Is torchic (and by association, baton passing in general) consistent//reliable enough to be considered more than a particularly strong gimmick." Personally I'm not convinced - but i have a lot against baton pass teams. How does one use it well? When can you actually sneak in Torchic? Free switches only come around so often, and its typing isnt exactly a boon to help it do this. The newbs answer is to lead with it, pass to a wall breaker and hope. This is really easy to counter after like the third time you see it happen especially when your opponent is bad.

In other words the only thing I'm not convinced of isnt so much the power of torchic as much as the ability to consistently getting it to perform.

 

[Anthiese]

I didnt mean to start something ;w;

TCR

>Prediction is NOT RELIABLE in any form

i laughed really hard here. Isnt most of this game prediction? If it's not then i dont know how i've been playing Pokemon for over 12 years has been. That's ingame and competively. Sorry to be a dick and say it like that but i find it hard as hell to play Pokemon without guessing what your opponent is doing and then going from there.

Now onto Torchic:

Im not saying it's a bad thing to be a support mon :/

Im just saying that's all it can do. I mean it's not A rank material imo just because the treading lightly is real unless it's lategame. Most new to Torchic users try to quicksweep and that ends in failure. Most good Torchic users know how to play it in the end and that's what's saving it. Still iunno about it being A rank. It's good at it's job and that's all it needs. I guess it could? My uncertainty is real on this one.

 

[Delver]

I didnt mean to start something ;w;

TCR

Im just saying that's all it can do. I mean it's not A rank material imo just because the treading lightly is real unless it's lategame. Most new to Torchic users try to quicksweep and that ends in failure. Most good Torchic users know how to play it in the end and that's what's saving it. Still iunno about it being A rank. It's good at it's job and that's all it needs. I guess it could? My uncertainty is real on this one.

Do you think that Baton Pass is a viable strategy in Little Cup? if so is it Torchic that makes it viable or is torchic just the best user of it? Sorry for the low content in the post, i just dont know much about the mon so im trying to get more relevant information out from those that do.

 

[Wobbyble]

Baton Pass is viable, chain passing more than once is not viable. Chain pass is completely fucked up by so many things and one crit, para, freeze, etc will cost you the whole match, guaranteed almost.

Chaining with Torchic, BP Meditite, and a tertiary receiver is alright. Torchic can also use a LO set which is cool for surprise revenges. Torchic is pretty great at pubstomping the ladder until probably 1500s, but it's so horribly inconsistent against competent players that theres no way I'd ever put it in A

 

[tcr]

Wobbyble no offense, but using the ladder as a base for whether something is good or not is it not reliable. Yeah the ladder is the large majority of the playerbase, but its so bad its not worth the trouble to compare the two. Being able to be consistent up to 1500 (which is above average in my opinion on ladder standards) is enough for me to say that it performs consistently. Not being good against people like you, or Bri, or anyone else really good isn't fair to compare.

Baton Pass is a viable strategy. Full on chain baton passing? no. quick passing sped boosts? definitely yes in a metagame where things that are banned have a high sped as a LARGE factor (Gligar).

Jac its not reliablle 1) as a strategy to play with, and 2) to form these tiers as others were implying. If you solely rely on prediciton to win a game odds are you lose around 50% of games, because thats all predicition is, is guessing. Its a coinflip. The majority of the time for predictions, if you guess wrong, you could very well lose one of your pokemon, or have it severely crippled. Risk v Reward is NOT prediciton based. I don;t think you understand what I nean by prediciton. As for the second point, prediction should not be a factor in determingin a pokemon's ranking. All Meditite runs is the same 4 moves, sometimes switching one up or two. Should it be D rank because I know what to expect? of course not. Should Pawniard be D rank because all it does is Knock Off? Of course not. ShoulTorchic not be A rank because it usually runs the same set every time? same line, no.

As to whether or not passing first turn is good or not, or whther pasing later is better is irrelevant. If it performs consistently for a player (which it should being that a player will go many many battles doing the same strategy) then it doesnt matter how the chain is done. Its consistent to that player, and since it fits that criteria, it should b A tier. It requires minimal support, no more than any other pokemon and a LOT lesss than some, the benefits of using it with something like Meditite far outweigh the negatives. Just give it A tier already.

 

[Anthiese]

inb4 Based Briyella comes in with her BP team and calls bullshit

Wobbyble no offense, but using the ladder as a base for whether something is good or not is it not reliable. Yeah the ladder is the large majority of the playerbase, but its so bad its not worth the trouble to compare the two. Being able to be consistent up to 1500 (which is above average in my opinion on ladder standards) is enough for me to say that it performs consistently. Not being good against people like you, or Bri, or anyone else really good isn't fair to compare.

Baton Pass is a viable strategy. Full on chain baton passing? no. quick passing sped boosts? definitely yes in a metagame where things that are banned have a high sped as a LARGE factor (Gligar).

Jac its not reliablle 1) as a strategy to play with, and 2) to form these tiers as others were implying. If you solely rely on prediciton to win a game odds are you lose around 50% of games, because thats all predicition is, is guessing. Its a coinflip. The majority of the time for predictions, if you guess wrong, you could very well lose one of your pokemon, or have it severely crippled. Risk v Reward is NOT prediciton based. I don;t think you understand what I nean by prediciton. As for the second point, prediction should not be a factor in determingin a pokemon's ranking. All Meditite runs is the same 4 moves, sometimes switching one up or two. Should it be D rank because I know what to expect? of course not. Should Pawniard be D rank because all it does is Knock Off? Of course not. ShoulTorchic not be A rank because it usually runs the same set every time? same line, no.

As to whether or not passing first turn is good or not, or whther pasing later is better is irrelevant. If it performs consistently for a player (which it should being that a player will go many many battles doing the same strategy) then it doesnt matter how the chain is done. Its consistent to that player, and since it fits that criteria, it should b A tier. It requires minimal support, no more than any other pokemon and a LOT lesss than some, the benefits of using it with something like Meditite far outweigh the negatives. Just give it A tier already.

I still think predictions is a massive part of the game. That's all i got to say on that

Torchic can be A rank i guess...

 

[Wobbyble]

Ladder is a great way to determine if something is reliable, not sure where else you're going to test your team/strategy against a wide pool of different players and teams.

I used Torchic in a shit ton of games, there were so many close games I had due to not being able to get a good pass off or something of the sort which made the game 5 vs 6 basically. Most of these close games would've been far more definitive if I had just been using something that's more consistent like a Murkrow.

So yeah, it can win you a game single-handed, but has a notable chance to make you lose off of not being able to get a good pass, definitely B tier material.

 

[Merritt]

I'm going to do an analysis for torchic for every damn threat in S and A rank, to see what happens if it goes up against it. All Torchic are max Defense and HP, and the assumed set is Swords Dance/Curse, protect, baton pass, and flame charge-so it has an attacking move.

Tite vs. Chic.

196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Torchic cannot switch in, and with rocks and two layers of spikes, Bullet Punch will kill. Torchic cannot switch in safely, and if Meditite runs HJK...
196+ Atk Pure Power Meditite High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Foo vs The lil Rascal
Torchic is fairly safe here, as Drain Punch is not a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks, only about a 90% chance, but if torchic switches into Knock Off, then it's a different story.
236+ Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With rocks, that's a 2HKO after Knock Off and Drain Punch. Getting better, but still not there.

Missie vs. Orange Chicken

This is nice for torchic. Missie's unlikely to 2HKO and doesn't get knock off, so it should be all good, right? After all...
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
87.9% we can deal with. If rocks are down, you'll win.
But oh wait. Misdreavus gets Nasty Plot. And Protect gives it free turns. And on the turn you pass, it can shadow ball and kill essentially anything, since you let it get to at least +2, likely higher. So now you've got a monster that probably killed your passed mon. Good job.

Also, since all other calculations are done with 0 Special defense EVs,
236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Krow vs Running Chick

Krow isn't ever fun to face, but hey, at least it doesn't usually have a boosting move.
236 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Painful, but you only need to take it once before passing. You can't switch in, but that's ok. Just watch out for getting killed or at least heavily dented when you pass.

But wait, there is a such thing as Prankster HazeKrow. And that's just as bad for torchic as Prankster Taunt, especially if it uses haze on the turn you try to pass. So yeah, Torchic is not anywhere near 100% useable on Krow.

(Yes, I realize that HazeKrow is inferior to MixKrow. It can run it though, and I've seen it used to check things like tirtouga.)

Pawn vs Flappy Bird

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Eh, we've seen worse. But wait, Pawn can run Swords Dance, and sucker punch. I hope you plan on passing those boosts to a Timburr.

The speedy fish vs the speedy bird

This would be the stupidest thing to do ever. And if you can't see why, then I wash my hands of you.

In all honesty, Carvahna will beat Torchic and its pass usually, since it can outspeed and kill with waterfall. Incidentally, this also means that Mr. Fish can switch in at essentially any time and still handle the pass somewhat with protect boosts.

Chou vs Flaming Chicken

Not the best idea, and it's obviously not a safe switch in.
68 SpA Chinchou Scald vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Oh wait. It's not safe against Chinchou at all. Excuse my poor wording.

Gunk vs the Chick

Torchic is safe to use here, which is nice. Of course, if Croagunk is using Nasty Plot it isn't safe at all to switch in.
108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 6-7 (25 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
With the nasty plot boost, it finishes the job on the baton passing turn, and once again you've left your opponent with a mon at +2.

Dwebble vs Torchie

Discussed earlier, but let me reiterate. Torchic, although it can avoid rock damage for sure, is not a good lead against Dwebble. Rock blast has ~32% chance to OHKO. My calculations are earlier.

Fletch (aka firebird that gets fire) vs torchic (aka firebird that gets fists)

Once again, Fletchling has that pesky little issue of Swords Dance boosting, only made worse by the fact that it also has priority. So, even if it decides to be merciful and not boost, you will take two attacks from Fletchling.
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Note that that is a 93.8% chance to OHKO at +2. And, once again, you have a dangerous birdie to deal with. Isn't that fun?

Larv vs Pass the Torch

First off, note that I believe that Larvesta is actually a B rank. Larvesta is the first thing that torchic is essentially 100% safe to switch in on.
236+ Atk Larvesta Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-7 (25 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So that's nice, Torchic has something for setup bait now. Just watch out for a will-o-wisp when you pass, since that's kinda Larvesta's big thing, and it cancels out the swords dance, which you can only safely use once if you want to switch in on larvesta.

Mite vs Chicken McSpeed Boost

Hey, we've got a steel type! This should be a piece of cake for a thing like torchic, since it can scare it out and set up swords dance for free. But wait, isn't magnemite also an electric type?
236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So much for switching in. Also, even if you don't switch in and instead they switch in, you have to remember that if hazards are down on their side, they get three shots at whatever you send out. Torchic with flame charge will always activate berry juice, so you can't even try that.

Pony vs Ick

This isn't bad, after all Larvesta was safe to switch in on, so how bad can ponyta be?
236 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Yep, another safe switch in. Just, once again, look out for Ponyta burning your switch.

Pory vs Speed_Boost.exe

Now then, Porygon is an interesting case. If it runs Trace, you don't have to worry about it tracing speed boost when you switch in on it, and Download is useless if they got an attack boost.
0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Well, I guess you can't switch in on it. And watch out for the 13.33% chance of getting a status that'll screw you over.
Incidentally, Porygon is also a fairly good switch in, as it can either get a boost with download to its special attack so it hits the switch fairly hard, or get a speed boost of its own. And it can also paralyze the pass in, rendering the speed boosts useless.

Scrag vs Chickchickchick

Scraggy, like several others, has the obvious problem of being able to boost, and essentially always running a boosting move. In addition, on the Dragon Dance sets, it outspeeds Torchic at the same + level, essentially allowing it to boost up at the same time as torchic and then either kill torchic or whatever you pass in.
236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now, at +2 it's only a 6.3% chance to OHKO, but if scraggy gets outpredicted and you pass when they dance, they're now +1 more than you, assuming that both scraggy and torchic were boosting at the same rate. And you are now likely about to be swept.

Slow vs Speedy

In a classical case of "Slow(poke) and Stead(ily using Trick Room or Thunder Wave) wins the race", Slowpoke is a problem for torchic and speed boost. If Slowpoke uses Trick Room, passing is a terrible option. If slowpoke uses thunder wave, passing can get you killed. As a final "f*** you" from slowpoke...
36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
And people say slowpoke is a B-rank poke.

Zee vs Mr. T

As is the case with most walls, Spritzee is fairly good setup fodder. However, if Spritzee has calm mind, then it can cause a fairly large dent in whatever you send in if it predicts the passing turn. However, torchic is able to set up on it fairly well, due to resisting Spritzee's STAB.

Tim vs Henny Petty

Timburr is one of the borderline cases, as it is something torchic cannot switch in on, due to to Drain Punch and Mach Punch cleanly KOing it. On the other hand, Knock Off and Mach Punch just barely fall short of beating it.
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So, Torchic cannot switch in, but can set up, although the likely knock off on the pass will be painful to deal with, especially with a followup mach punch.

Tirt vs Torc

lol

(In all seriousness, this is pure, pure setup fodder for Tirtouga. Tirtouga gets a chance to smash, and torchic has to pass on the turn tirtouga smashes, as Aqua Jet is likely to OHKO.
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 236 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Vull vs My Little Friend

Vullaby, like most walls, would appear to be setup bait. However, much like HazeKrow, Vullaby can make Torchie cry. As of Gen 6, whirlwind goes through protect, so Vullaby can either shuffle Torchic out, or whatever passes in, essentially leaving torchic useless since it'll be at 50% the next time it comes in if rocks are up. Vullaby is actually a fantastic switch in to torchic, as long as the chick doesn't pass when you come in.

Overall conclusion? Torchic gives the opponent far to many free turns and cannot come in reliably, making it a decent, but not fantastic, support Pokemon. As such, B-rank is the correct tier for it.

Also, before anyone complains about rocks being factored into all my calculations, if Torchic requires that rocks be down to function, then it is not consistent enough to be an A-rank and deserves to fall to B-rank accordingly.

 

[tcr]

Random Calcs that half are ridiculous to begin with

If you think switching Torchic into Murkrow, Pawniard, Slowpoke, Meditite, Chinchou, Vullaby, Dwebble, or Carvanha, is a good idea, then quite honestly you are stupid. AsI have stated before, multiple times to your obstinate mind, TORCHIC IS NOT A WALL. In fact, I'll quote me saying that.

Its not supposed to sweep. its not supposed to wall.

No its not a pivot. Not its not a sweeper. No its not a wall.

Quite honestly I'm tired of you treating it like its a wall. Its not OHKOed by every single move in the metagame. Therefore, it can usually and reliably get one or two boosts up. It doesn't need to get to +2/+2 to do its job. Often a simple +1 speed is excellent enough. It doesn't need to come in reliably, as its usually sent out after a revenge kill or something, or quite often as a lead. You can factor in rocks damage all you want but it doesn't mean anything. If some of the best players in the game can state that Yanma should be banned even though it is 4x Rocks weak, under the basis that Defog is prevalent and it is extremely easy to get rid of hazards, then rocks should not be factored in Torchic's "calculations" (completely disrregarding the fact that over half of those calculations present unreasonable and unrealistic scenarios). You can't just pick and choose what factors into what pokemon's tiering, and I think that Rocks Free calcs should be the basis for tiering such as this. This is literally another case of random calculations that vileman was talking about that pollute this thread.

Torchic is not supposed to switch in and then start setting up. In fact no good player will ever do that. Unless you are a pure dedicated wall or hard counter to something (such as Spritzee, sometimes slowpoke, and timburr to pawniard) you never just straight switch in and be like, "oh I hope he doesnt use any move that hurts me and instead uses that one move that no one ever uses." Again, you never simply start setting up on something that can set up back. Like how can you even consider that? "LOL scraggy is out. might as well try and get a speed boost in. First I have to switch in chic tho."

Oh not to mention that some of your statements are hypocritical to your actual argument.

First off, note that I believe that Larvesta is actually a B rank. Larvesta is the first thing that torchic is essentially 100% safe to switch in on.

Yet Larvesta is stealth rocks weak and definitely takes more than 50% from 2 attacks (its horridly slow meaning half of the tier can safely attack it twice).

Lastly, if you honestly use this made up tier list as a basis for what should be calculated than you are sorely misguided. If you decide to take Wobbyble's concept of using the ladder as a basis, then you would use usage statistics, which is quite honestly a far better representation of what Torchic would be facing,

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % | + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + | 1 | Mienfoo | 22.89526% | 17634 | 18.974% | 15242 | 20.358% |
| 2 | Murkrow | 21.25807% | 15631 | 16.819% | 12117 | 16.184% |
| 3 | Meditite | 20.95429% | 14643 | 15.756% | 12030 | 16.068% |
| 4 | Abra | 19.76116% | 18889 | 20.324% | 14512 | 19.383% |
| 5 | Misdreavus | 19.15514% | 13725 | 14.768% | 11020 | 14.719% |
| 6 | Pawniard | 17.90703% | 12857 | 13.834% | 10242 | 13.680% |
| 7 | Chinchou | 16.71477% | 12596 | 13.553% | 10404 | 13.896% |
| 8 | Gligar | 12.63399% | 9018 | 9.703% | 7422 | 9.913% |
| 9 | Fletchling | 11.76739% | 9501 | 10.223% | 7540 | 10.071% |
| 10 | Magnemite | 11.60354% | 8818 | 9.488% | 7098 | 9.481% |
| 11 | Scraggy | 11.59364% | 9864 | 10.614% | 7805 | 10.425% |
| 12 | Aipom | 10.40473% | 10611 | 11.417% | 9589 | 12.808% |
| 13 | Tirtouga | 9.87999% | 7127 | 7.669% | 5604 | 7.485% |
| 14 | Porygon | 9.74017% | 8644 | 9.301% | 6671 | 8.910% |
| 15 | Spritzee | 9.70922% | 6810 | 7.327% | 5129 | 6.851% |
| 16 | Gastly | 9.18365% | 9060 | 9.748% | 7275 | 9.717% |
| 17 | Vullaby | 7.88912% | 6044 | 6.503% | 4885 | 6.525% |
| 18 | Dwebble | 7.87087% | 6294 | 6.772% | 5456 | 7.287% |
| 19 | Timburr | 7.86060% | 6017 | 6.474% | 5052 | 6.748% |
| 20 | Bunnelby | 7.62385% | 6852 | 7.373% | 5275 | 7.046% |
| 21 | Swirlix | 7.54062% | 5852 | 6.297% | 4161 | 5.558% |
| 22 | Honedge | 7.33352% | 6736 | 7.248% | 5637 | 7.529% |
| 23 | Ferroseed | 7.26158% | 6664 | 7.170% | 5934 | 7.926% |
| 24 | Slowpoke | 6.42341% | 5321 | 5.725% | 4237 | 5.659% |
| 25 | Staryu | 6.09512% | 5523 | 5.943% | 4296 | 5.738% |
| 26 | Ponyta | 6.02109% | 5686 | 6.118% | 4541 | 6.065% |
| 27 | Drilbur | 5.98152% | 5112 | 5.500% | 4021 | 5.371%

This adds in a whole new set of pokemon, specifically things like Staryu, Abra, Honedge, Gastly, and Aipom. AS well as Drilbur. Due to the actual nature of how decent players actually will realistically play Torchic, I will do these calcs based on One attack, there strongest. You would set up a Swords Dance or Protect, and both can be reversed if need be (protect first turn, swords dance the second, or vice versa, it doesnt matter). For consistanty's sake, I will do a spread of max HP max Def.

Calcs (Since you seem extremely fond of them)

236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (16,16,16,16,16,17,17,17,17,17,17,17,17,19) So unless Brave Bird absolutely hits max, Brave Bird + Rocks will do a total of 23 out of 24 HP (25% of 24 HP is 6, 6 (Rocks Damage) + the second highest HP lost (17) = 23).Pay attention to this as I will do that for some of the next few calcs.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-4 (12.5 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
So unless Rocks are up, Meditite, probably the most fearsome sweeper in the metagame fails to hit then KO before the Baton Pass is sent (and even then the obvious attack is going to be Drain Punch allowing you to pick with ease what pokemon you are sending out).

236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 19-24 (79.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO doesnt even reliably OHKO. This is also disregarding that only around 50% of Misdreavus even run Nasty Plot anyway (most prefer a coverage move such as Thunderbolt or Dazzling gleam and Substitute.

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

232+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ Atk Fletchling Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Even at +2 non of Fletchling's attacks, boosted or not Acro (most siituations it will be unboosted. This is also completely disregarding how Fletchling isnt OHKOed anyway by half the tier) OHKO Torchic.

236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think this speaks for itself.

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Laugh all you want, Aipom is 11th in usage (essentially) and is common enough on teams to warrant being calc'd. If you think otherwise than you are plain stupid.

212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO As I said before in my response to the original quote, calcing ridiculous scenarios such as this does nothing to further any point on either side. Im simply showing it because I accidentally calc'd it and was too lazy to actually delete it. No user ever is going to try and set up on tirtouga with Torchic. its just not happening.


0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO I'm sorry, but one, the odds of getting two max rolls are 0.4%. Not to mention that you can't call 13.3% "reliable" or even something to fear happening.

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO Quite easily the best "switch in" to set up Torchic, even though that isn't how you play Torchic anyway.

252 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This came up in the damage calc as 252/252 .-. IDK why.

76 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO Only 8.349% of all Vullaby run Whirlwind. Only 6.705% run Taunt, meaning that usually it is a safe switch in as well as setting up.

236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO Again with the bad calcs. This situation should never happen.

196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-11 (37.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 20-24 (83.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is significant because 1) Most Bunnies are choiced anyway (55.185%) meaning that Protect first turn is great to simply grab a simply speed boost. Return doesn't even OHKO, most of the time even with Rocks up, so you can grab a free Swords Dance.

196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
So whether it sets up or not is really inconsequential. Any common pokemon that beats Shadow Sneak beats Honedge, meaning that being set up is inconsequential. Or you can be fun and run WoW.

92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (58 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 2-3 (8.3 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (87 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-3 (12.5 - 12.5%) -- guaranteed 8HKO
92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (116 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-5 (12.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
The most you can do is Thunder Wave the switch in, which only 39.455% of Ferroseed run, and is negated by any electric or ground type. Ifyou run Curse Chick then GG anyway.

36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Why would you ever try and set up on it anyway, when 75.602% run Scald to get the burn on the switch, and 63.626% run Thunder Wave? Again, a bad calc.

196 SpA Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO
196 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a note, only 51.03% run Hydro Pump, 23.757% run Surf, and 23.137% run Scald. 3.662% run Thunder Wave.

236 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

236+ Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 20-26 (83.3 - 108.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The biggest takeaway from this is that almost no attack from the top 25 pokemon OHKO Torchic. Unless it is supereffective STAB, Torchic is guaranteed to get a boost. And that guarantee is waht sets it to A tier. It is reliable. Whether you can safely use that ability to your advantage is a whole different story, one that I believe has no impact on determining the placement of Torchic, because it depends on factors such as prediction, skill, luck, and team structure. The ability that Torchic can commonly set up to +2/+2, or even a simple +1, gives it great potential, with far little support.

So there you have it. The top 25 pokemon when compared to Torchic. In a reasonable scenario. No one is going to try and switch in to set up, especially on somthing as obvious to KO as stuff like Chinchou, Carvahna, etc etc.

EDIT: These are calcs of February, so some percentages of movesets and pokemon usage might be off, but I predict that it wouldnt affect much other than Scraggy being top 25 and Aipom being like 17th.

 

[Expulso]

pass the popcorn

 

[Merritt]

A-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

The bolded part is the entire reasoning for why I believe Larvesta should be B rank along with Torchic. If you had included rocks in all of your calculations, then I wouldn't be able to use this as an argument. Requiring that you dedicate a teamslot to one of the few viable users of Spin or Defog is "a bit more team support" due to the scarcity of options. As for the yanma point, it was also during a time when we had Gligar available for defog. I'm not saying that this is the reason it could come back, but that a reliance on defog/spin is a point against it.

I'm not going to get into an argument with you where we just put down each other and call each other's ideas stupid for stupid's sake. First off, many of the calculations on the damage calculator are horrible, and shouldn't be used. For example, the damage calculator uses Dwebble as a Shell Smasher and Chinchou as a "fast" special attacker.

I never said that the ladder is the best way to judge things. When we look at the ladder, you have to sift through the pile of awfulness, because otherwise Cubone ends up being the best thing since sliced bread. The same goes for moves on the usage stats- just because a move is used often does not mean it is good, because then we have to get into a guessing game of "is this a competent player or do they use hydro pump on resttalk chinchou?"

I only did the A and S rank Pokemon because I didn't feel like doing the 40 odd Pokemon that can be used in the entire tier/meta. I'll write one up and send it to you if you really want me to, though.

As for Vileman, I suppose I should explain.

Can we stop having posts like these please? I mean what kind of decent player would try to set up on a pokemon like dwebble who has a stab multi hit move???

My calculation was done because of this quote

Literally unless you see Vullaby o some weird phazer, Torchic is ALWAYS first out.

I was calculating in response to TCR's statement about lead torchic, and how one of the better leads, Dwebble, deals with it.

Torchic, one of my favorite Pokemon, has become overrated. If you analyze the definition of A rank, you see that Torchic does not fit it as well as it fits B rank's definition. This is due to the fact that Torchic is linear, and needs its team to be able to truly take advantage of its traits, and cannot be slapped onto any team like the majority of A rank. I like this a lot atm, but it is not an A rank.

This still applies to Torchic. Remember, B-rank is "Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. " That is not a trash tier, it is just for things that have to have a team that supports them instead of being able to independently support the team.

And lastly, shut up Expluso :P

 

[chimp]

If you think switching Torchic into Murkrow, Pawniard, Slowpoke, Meditite, Chinchou, Vullaby, Dwebble, or Carvanha, is a good idea, then quite honestly you are stupid. AsI have stated before, multiple times to your obstinate mind, TORCHIC IS NOT A WALL. In fact, I'll quote me saying that.



Quite honestly I'm tired of you treating it like its a wall. Its not OHKOed by every single move in the metagame. Therefore, it can usually and reliably get one or two boosts up. It doesn't need to get to +2/+2 to do its job. Often a simple +1 speed is excellent enough. It doesn't need to come in reliably, as its usually sent out after a revenge kill or something, or quite often as a lead. You can factor in rocks damage all you want but it doesn't mean anything. If some of the best players in the game can state that Yanma should be banned even though it is 4x Rocks weak, under the basis that Defog is prevalent and it is extremely easy to get rid of hazards, then rocks should not be factored in Torchic's "calculations" (completely disrregarding the fact that over half of those calculations present unreasonable and unrealistic scenarios). You can't just pick and choose what factors into what pokemon's tiering, and I think that Rocks Free calcs should be the basis for tiering such as this. This is literally another case of random calculations that vileman was talking about that pollute this thread.

Torchic is not supposed to switch in and then start setting up. In fact no good player will ever do that. Unless you are a pure dedicated wall or hard counter to something (such as Spritzee, sometimes slowpoke, and timburr to pawniard) you never just straight switch in and be like, "oh I hope he doesnt use any move that hurts me and instead uses that one move that no one ever uses." Again, you never simply start setting up on something that can set up back. Like how can you even consider that? "LOL scraggy is out. might as well try and get a speed boost in. First I have to switch in chic tho."

Oh not to mention that some of your statements are hypocritical to your actual argument.
Yet Larvesta is stealth rocks weak and definitely takes more than 50% from 2 attacks (its horridly slow meaning half of the tier can safely attack it twice).

Lastly, if you honestly use this made up tier list as a basis for what should be calculated than you are sorely misguided. If you decide to take Wobbyble's concept of using the ladder as a basis, then you would use usage statistics, which is quite honestly a far better representation of what Torchic would be facing,


This adds in a whole new set of pokemon, specifically things like Staryu, Abra, Honedge, Gastly, and Aipom. AS well as Drilbur. Due to the actual nature of how decent players actually will realistically play Torchic, I will do these calcs based on One attack, there strongest. You would set up a Swords Dance or Protect, and both can be reversed if need be (protect first turn, swords dance the second, or vice versa, it doesnt matter). For consistanty's sake, I will do a spread of max HP max Def.

Calcs (Since you seem extremely fond of them)

236+ Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (16,16,16,16,16,17,17,17,17,17,17,17,17,19) So unless Brave Bird absolutely hits max, Brave Bird + Rocks will do a total of 23 out of 24 HP (25% of 24 HP is 6, 6 (Rocks Damage) + the second highest HP lost (17) = 23).Pay attention to this as I will do that for some of the next few calcs.

252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Meditite Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-4 (12.5 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
So unless Rocks are up, Meditite, probably the most fearsome sweeper in the metagame fails to hit then KO before the Baton Pass is sent (and even then the obvious attack is going to be Drain Punch allowing you to pick with ease what pokemon you are sending out).

236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 13-16 (54.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
+2 236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 19-24 (79.1 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO doesnt even reliably OHKO. This is also disregarding that only around 50% of Misdreavus even run Nasty Plot anyway (most prefer a coverage move such as Thunderbolt or Dazzling gleam and Substitute.

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

232+ SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ Atk Fletchling Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-21 (66.6 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

Even at +2 non of Fletchling's attacks, boosted or not Acro (most siituations it will be unboosted. This is also completely disregarding how Fletchling isnt OHKOed anyway by half the tier) OHKO Torchic.

236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 236+ Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think this speaks for itself.

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Laugh all you want, Aipom is 11th in usage (essentially) and is common enough on teams to warrant being calc'd. If you think otherwise than you are plain stupid.

212+ Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO As I said before in my response to the original quote, calcing ridiculous scenarios such as this does nothing to further any point on either side. Im simply showing it because I accidentally calc'd it and was too lazy to actually delete it. No user ever is going to try and set up on tirtouga with Torchic. its just not happening.


0 SpA Porygon Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 9-12 (37.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO I'm sorry, but one, the odds of getting two max rolls are 0.4%. Not to mention that you can't call 13.3% "reliable" or even something to fear happening.

12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO Quite easily the best "switch in" to set up Torchic, even though that isn't how you play Torchic anyway.

252 SpA Gastly Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This came up in the damage calc as 252/252 .-. IDK why.

76 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO Only 8.349% of all Vullaby run Whirlwind. Only 6.705% run Taunt, meaning that usually it is a safe switch in as well as setting up.

236+ Atk Dwebble Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 18-24 (75 - 100%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO Again with the bad calcs. This situation should never happen.

196+ Atk Timburr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
196+ Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Guts Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 9-11 (37.5 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 20-24 (83.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
228+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is significant because 1) Most Bunnies are choiced anyway (55.185%) meaning that Protect first turn is great to simply grab a simply speed boost. Return doesn't even OHKO, most of the time even with Rocks up, so you can grab a free Swords Dance.

196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
+2 196+ Atk Honedge Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 11-14 (45.8 - 58.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 7-10 (29.1 - 41.6%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
So whether it sets up or not is really inconsequential. Any common pokemon that beats Shadow Sneak beats Honedge, meaning that being set up is inconsequential. Or you can be fun and run WoW.

92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (58 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 2-3 (8.3 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (87 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-3 (12.5 - 12.5%) -- guaranteed 8HKO
92 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (116 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 3-5 (12.5 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
The most you can do is Thunder Wave the switch in, which only 39.455% of Ferroseed run, and is negated by any electric or ground type. Ifyou run Curse Chick then GG anyway.

36 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 14-18 (58.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Why would you ever try and set up on it anyway, when 75.602% run Scald to get the burn on the switch, and 63.626% run Thunder Wave? Again, a bad calc.

196 SpA Staryu Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 7-9 (29.1 - 37.5%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO
196 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torchic: 24-30 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a note, only 51.03% run Hydro Pump, 23.757% run Surf, and 23.137% run Scald. 3.662% run Thunder Wave.

236 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 6-8 (25 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

236+ Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 20-26 (83.3 - 108.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Torchic: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The biggest takeaway from this is that almost no attack from the top 25 pokemon OHKO Torchic. Unless it is supereffective STAB, Torchic is guaranteed to get a boost. And that guarantee is waht sets it to A tier. It is reliable. Whether you can safely use that ability to your advantage is a whole different story, one that I believe has no impact on determining the placement of Torchic, because it depends on factors such as prediction, skill, luck, and team structure. The ability that Torchic can commonly set up to +2/+2, or even a simple +1, gives it great potential, with far little support.

So there you have it. The top 25 pokemon when compared to Torchic. In a reasonable scenario. No one is going to try and switch in to set up, especially on somthing as obvious to KO as stuff like Chinchou, Carvahna, etc etc.

EDIT: These are calcs of February, so some percentages of movesets and pokemon usage might be off, but I predict that it wouldnt affect much other than Scraggy being top 25 and Aipom being like 17th.

You're assuming the Torchic player is good, so lets assume the player facing torchic is good as well.
Like how no smart player would have Torchic set up on Chinchou/Slowpoke, no smart player would blindly attack it while it gets faster. Out comes Chinchou. Thats not good for Torchic. It'll either die or risk having its receiver get burned or paralyzed. Same with Slowpoke. Vullaby will whirlwind. Murkrow will decimate the receiver, or T-Wave or Haze. Tirtouga will set up on it. Misdreavus can set up or burn the receiver. These pokemon, according to the Feb usage stats, have a ranking of 7, 24, 17, 2, 13, and 5, respectively. Basically, if any of these pokemon appear on the enemy's team, then you need to be dedicated to removing them, as you've stated yourself, Torchic is not a wall, so it'll just die or have its strategy flopped if you can't handle it. That means it needs a good deal of support TO support.

THAT said, again, I think torchic COULD be considered for A, since its so easy to boost. Its a thin, thin, line though. One stumble and its all over.