Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[teamdelibird]

Latios honestly should be A+ rank. It's a major staple in the meta with its amazing combination of massive power and utility with Defog. It has a fair amount of unpredictability, and you really can't be comfortable checking it with any Pokemon except for Aegislash and Clefable in this meta, it can muscle through all its other checks one way or another, even Bisharp assuming you can predict the Suckers. Depending on the set it can do incredibly well vs almost all of S and A ranks, and the fact is just because Aegis beats it hard doesn't excuse it for being just A rank. There are definitely Pokemon in the A+ rank like Azumarill and Cube, while they deserve their A+ I wouldn't say those are Pokemon better than Latios, and I really wouldn't want to stick Latios down in the same ranking tier as something like Greninja or Mandibuzz... the point here is that he really stands out compared to the other A rank Pokemon as being way better than them, and better than even some stuff in A+. He really should be moved up.

I've yet to have a latios not die horribly to my tyrannitar. It eats draco meteor and then kills or maims with pursuit. You didn't even mention tyrannitar as a counter when it's one of the best. (I should specify I use a specially defensive support ttar)
Personally, I think Latios is fine in A. It's great, but not THAT great. Especially with how good dark is offensively this gen, and how weak latios is to pursuit.

 

[AA-j]

MUST BUILD UP QUALITY POST COUNT FOR VR
jk
But seriously,lucario in B-?It should at least be B+,considering how the meta has in general slowed down and priority has taken over,and considering the only priority it fears is from conkeldurr,lucario does well in the meta.Lucarios +2 CC defined it last gen,being capable of ripping apart skarmory,among other things.It also has +2 priority in extreme speed should it come across a TFlame,which from at +2 has a good chance of KOing(+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.6 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO,calcs are done adamant because its the preferred nature,seeing as it will only lose out on the rare scarf exca.)Another thing is you can't counter it until you know its coverage move-Landorus-T counters it if crunch is the coverage move,Aegislash counters it if Ice Punch is the coverage move.This adds to lucarios unpredictability as you would have to send in something weak to its coverage move to find out what it is because ESpeed does as much damage as crunch,and more than ice punch,and while finding out the coverage move you may find yourself down by one,and when you are down one,it could be the counter/check to another equally/more threatening sweeper,so that puts Lucario as a great member of sweeper cores,seeing as it removes a unique set of pokemon.But sadly that is where the good news ends.Its so frail that a light breeze knocks it out,let alone the powerful attacks the OU tier is capable of.Its base 90 speed may be better this gen than it was last gen,but it still leaves much to be desired.Last but not least,it is incapable of beating the charizards by itself,meaning it is setup bait for them.But one must consider lucarios good trait first before discounting it as a valuable member of a team.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I said in another trhead that Deo-D wasn't that perfect because it's too easy to predict as a lead. I still believe in that, but this match I just played has put some doubts in that assumption:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-99972797

Take a look. My opponent did something as simple as leading with something else (a.k.a. a check to my Deo-D counter), and the result was that I had to do a lot of work to stop it, AND had to get lucky enough to have its red card switch me into my Taunt Talonflame. And in the end it still got a layer of rocks. Had the red card switched me into anything else, and it would have also gotten one or more layers of spikes. That was only because my opponent was smart enough to make a little less predictable lead. In the end I won the match, but Deo-D certainly did its job very well.

Deo-D doesn't have to lead. It can come in at any defensive mon, use rocks as the opponent switches, take a hit, use red card and spikes, and possibly even use spikes again. And its counters are so few that's not hard to pack a good partner for it, like that Garchomp. It can do it's own job perfectly like hardly and pokemon in the tier can. And hazard setting isn't exactly what I would call a niche.

I'm still not fully sure if it deserves S-Rank, but I'm starting to feel like it makes a lot of sense.

 

[jg1198]

Wow I feel as though a lot of this is still based on usage and not actual viability, as there are many mons that are far too low, and a few that are too high, For example, ferrothorn is still fantastic in this meta, being immune to toxic, and still resisting just about everything and leech seed is extremely effective in this metagame where the only really common grass type is venusaur. Ferro lays hazards well, leech seed stalls so many things and can status and gyro ball things on the switch in, and I believe it should at least be an A-.

Then we have kabutops, all the way in C rank, when fellow rain mons politoed and tornadus are in B+ and B respectively? Kabutops can force out a number of pokemon and set up and SD and destroy so many teams thanks to the current metagame that is simply not prepared for it. Kabutops sweeps are so incredibly easy to pull off its rediculous, and with an SD and LO, it still functions with a powerful aqua jet if its rain is taken away. I wish I could say it deserves A- for being almost without a doubt the best Swift Swimmer, but it really does need rain in order to sweep whole teams, and that means dedicating at least a moveslot (rain dance) and probably an item (damp rock) on another team mate, if not a whole mon in politoed, and that's admittedly too much required support to be an A-, so I argue for it to at least be a B+ with Toed.
EDIT: Not to mention that Kabutops still destroys Hippowdon and Tyranitar even if they take away the rain, and that thanks to the rain, has no problem taking out Quagsire and Clefable, as well as killing Thundurus-I with aqua jet before it can use T-Wave. This is part of what makes Kabutops so great as well, is that it bypasses three of the biggest, most popular checks to set-up sweepers in the metagame right now.

Speaking of Toed, he's awful. Without Specs or a scarf, he's really dead weight, not being quite bulky enough or strong enough to contribute anything but auto-drizzle or a perish song in a pinch. Many rain setters such as Deo-S/D or Torn/Thund-I function much better in this metagame and pull their own weight, and can fill multiple roles like hazards or screens for Deo-S/D, or abusing the rain they set up with powerful, fast STAB attacks, as well as taunting and t-waving the opponent as they try to set up on your rain setter for the genies. While Toed still does fill a valuable niche in auto-rain, aside from that, its really, really bad, and should be dropped to B-, as it still provides valuable support, but it can't do anything else.

I also feel that Terrakion and Mamoswine need to drop to B+ because of the fact that thanks to the changes of the metagame, namely the rise of fairies and aegislash hurting choice terrakion, the fall in usage of dragonite, noivern, and salamence making ice priority less useful hurting mamoswine, and the rise of will o wisp hurting both, plus the fact that they are hit super effectively by many types of priority, including the extremely common aqua jet, mach punch, and bullet punch, they just aren't as good as they were before.

 

[Hclegend]

Wow I feel as though a lot of this is still based on usage and not actual viability, as there are many mons that are far too low, and a few that are too high, For example, ferrothorn is still fantastic in this meta, being immune to toxic, and still resisting just about everything and leech seed is extremely effective in this metagame where the only really common grass type is venusaur. Ferro lays hazards well, leech seed stalls so many things and can status and gyro ball things on the switch in, and I believe it should at least be an A-.

Then we have kabutops, all the way in C rank, when fellow rain mons politoed and tornadus are in B+ and B respectively? Kabutops can force out a number of pokemon and set up and SD and destroy so many teams thanks to the current metagame that is simply not prepared for it. Kabutops sweeps are so incredibly easy to pull off its rediculous, and with an SD and LO, it still functions with a powerful aqua jet if its rain is taken away. I wish I could say it deserves A- for being almost without a doubt the best Swift Swimmer, but it really does need rain in order to sweep whole teams, and that means dedicating at least a moveslot (rain dance) and probably an item (damp rock) on another team mate, if not a whole mon in politoed, and that's admittedly too much required support to be an A-, so I argue for it to at least be a B+ with Toed.

Speaking of Toed, he's awful. Without Specs or a scarf, he's really dead weight, not being quite bulky enough or strong enough to contribute anything but auto-drizzle or a perish song in a pinch. Many rain setters such as Deo-S/D or Torn/Thund-I function much better in this metagame and pull their own weight, and can fill multiple roles like hazards or screens for Deo-S/D, or abusing the rain they set up with powerful, fast STAB attacks, as well as taunting and t-waving the opponent as they try to set up on your rain setter for the genies. While Toed still does fill a valuable niche in auto-rain, aside from that, its really, really bad, and should be dropped to B-, as it still provides valuable support, but it can't do anything else.

I also feel that Terrakion and Mamoswine need to drop to B+ because of the fact that thanks to the changes of the metagame, namely the rise of fairies and aegislash hurting choice terrakion, the fall in usage of dragonite, noivern, and salamence making ice priority less useful hurting mamoswine, and the rise of will o wisp hurting both, plus the fact that they are hit super effectively by many types of priority, including the extremely common aqua jet, mach punch, and bullet punch, they just aren't as good as they were before.

In a Meta where A. Weather is no longer permanent, and B. Ttar and Megazard Y can change the weather like THAT, Swift Swimmers/Most things reliant on weather are screwed. Sure you got the Aqua Jet, but in Sun, the damage is HALVED. And let's not forget that Megazard Y has a 120 BP Grass Attack to annilhate Kabutops with. I'm not saying its bad, I'm saying that Kabutops needs a lot of support in order to pull off a sweep.

And as for the "Usage = Viability" thing, that's BS right there. Rotom-W is #1 on the usage rankings. And yet he's not S Rank. People use Rotom-W a lot sure, but he has enough weaknesses and outright counters to make him less viable. Not saying he's bad, just saying he's fine where he is. As for Mammoswine. Ice Priority is still deadly even with less Dragon types around, and EQ hits quite a few common Pokemon pretty damn hard, examples being Excadrill, Megazard X, Ttar among others. I'm pretty sure he learns Stone Edge or Rock Slide to counter TFlame, Megazard Y and MPinsir.

 

[jg1198]

In a Meta where A. Weather is no longer permanent, and B. Ttar and Megazard Y can change the weather like THAT, Swift Swimmers/Most things reliant on weather are screwed. Sure you got the Aqua Jet, but in Sun, the damage is HALVED. And let's not forget that Megazard Y has a 120 BP Grass Attack to annilhate Kabutops with. I'm not saying its bad, I'm saying that Kabutops needs a lot of support in order to pull off a sweep.

And as for the "Usage = Viability" thing, that's BS right there. Rotom-W is #1 on the usage rankings. And yet he's not S Rank. People use Rotom-W a lot sure, but he has enough weaknesses and outright counters to make him less viable. Not saying he's bad, just saying he's fine where he is. As for Mammoswine. Ice Priority is still deadly even with less Dragon types around, and EQ hits quite a few common Pokemon pretty damn hard, examples being Excadrill, Megazard X, Ttar among others. I'm pretty sure he learns Stone Edge or Rock Slide to counter TFlame, Megazard Y and MPinsir.

Ok the thing is that Kabutops still murders both of the sand stream users, and Charizard-Y doesn't want to switch in, as it is still OHKO'd in the sun by waterfall and stone edge especially, while if rocks are down, aqua jet is still a KO (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 211-250 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), also you make it out to seem like Char-Y is on every other team, and while it has decent usage, its not common enough to make rain useless. If you don't believe me, I encourage you or anyone else to use him. Your point on Mamoswine is severely flawed, as the threats you point out have no problem outspeeding Mamo and doing a ton of damage to it, if not outright OHKO'ing Mamo. I'll give you that Mamo is nice for tyranitar and M-Pinsir, but you also further prove my point by stating that rotom-w is #1 in usage, and rotom-w is the number one counter for mamo, stopping it cold, and burning it, or outright killing it.

Also what I said was that "a lot" of the thread was based on usage and not viability, in the sense that many people don't realize how good some pokemon are just because they are not seen very often. Obviously I was not suggesting that this was even close to a simple copy and paste of the usage statistics. For example, Clefable, who is now an A rank, was at a C or C- until very recently, just because it was hardly ever used, and I believe that their are still more similar cases of pokemon that are very viable, but are ranked low because they are not common, Kabutops among them.

 

[Hclegend]

Ok the thing is that Kabutops still murders both of the sand stream users, and Charizard-Y doesn't want to switch in, as it is still OHKO'd in the sun by waterfall and stone edge especially, while if rocks are down, aqua jet is still a KO (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 211-250 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), also you make it out to seem like Char-Y is on every other team, and while it has decent usage, its not common enough to make rain useless. If you don't believe me, I encourage you or anyone else to use him. Your point on Mamoswine is severely flawed, as the threats you point out have no problem outspeeding Mamo and doing a ton of damage to it, if not outright OHKO'ing Mamo. I'll give you that Mamo is nice for tyranitar and M-Pinsir, but you also further prove my point by stating that rotom-w is #1 in usage, and rotom-w is the number one counter for mamo, stopping it cold, and burning it, or outright killing it.

Also what I said was that "a lot" of the thread was based on usage and not viability, in the sense that many people don't realize how good some pokemon are just because they are not seen very often. Obviously I was not suggesting that this was even close to a simple copy and paste of the usage statistics. For example, Clefable, who is now an A rank, was at a C or C- until very recently, just because it was hardly ever used, and I believe that their are still more similar cases of pokemon that are very viable, but are ranked low because they are not common, Kabutops among them.

Kabutops is also stopped dead by every grass type ever. Breloom especially, with it's own STAB Priority (Boosted by Technicain) Kabu is as good as dead. And that's with Mach Punch, never mind Bullet Seed. Also while I did condridict myself by saying that Mammo is still good then Rotom Wash is the #1 used Pokemon, Mammo has Superpower at the very least to hurt Wash before he gets burned, and with Fire being immune to burn, you could pull a double switch to a Grass type (If you had one.). And EVEN THEN, why wouldn't Wash go for the Hydro Pump and attempt to finish Mammo instead of WoWing? As for the Aqua Jet thing, that's only if Rocks are up, who's to say you don't have a Spinner? It's not essential for most teams, but it helps on most, especially ones with a 4x weakness to Rock. And even THEN, how does Kabu fare on its own? Does it have any Grass/Fighting counters? You can't have such a HO orientated Pokemon without at least a coverage move. AND EVEN THEN, you have Azurmarill to contend with, better typing (Weak to Electric sure but it's immune to Dragon) and doesn't need rain to function (Play Rough hits like a TRUCK, especially on BD sets). While I won't ay that Kabutops is the best Water Type in OU, I'll say it's a good alternative at the very least.

 

[jg1198]

Kabutops is also stopped dead by every grass type ever. Breloom especially, with it's own STAB Priority (Boosted by Technicain) Kabu is as good as dead. And that's with Mach Punch, never mind Bullet Seed. Also while I did condridict myself by saying that Mammo is still good then Rotom Wash is the #1 used Pokemon, Mammo has Superpower at the very least to hurt Wash before he gets burned, and with Fire being immune to burn, you could pull a double switch to a Grass type (If you had one.). And EVEN THEN, why wouldn't Wash go for the Hydro Pump and attempt to finish Mammo instead of WoWing? As for the Aqua Jet thing, that's only if Rocks are up, who's to say you don't have a Spinner? It's not essential for most teams, but it helps on most, especially ones with a 4x weakness to Rock. And even THEN, how does Kabu fare on its own? Does it have any Grass/Fighting counters? You can't have such a HO orientated Pokemon without at least a coverage move. AND EVEN THEN, you have Azurmarill to contend with, better typing (Weak to Electric sure but it's immune to Dragon) and doesn't need rain to function (Play Rough hits like a TRUCK, especially on BD sets). While I won't ay that Kabutops is the best Water Type in OU, I'll say it's a good alternative at the very least.

While breloom is a problem for it, being stopped by an extremely uncommon mon does not warrant that it be kept out of the B category, as even the mons in the S rank have hard counters. Now lets check the other grass types that might be seen in OU since it is "Stopped dead" by them.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 359-422 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 386-454 (89.3 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Note that with rocks, they are both guaranteed OHKO's.
neither of them can switch into Kabutops, and your only real chance at stopping it would be ferrothorn, who still has a 63% chance of being 2HKO'd with rocks.

Your argument for Charizard-Y countering it is flawed again by the fact that in the rain, Kabutops both outspeeds and OHKO's every single defogger and rapid spinner in OU, including Latias, Scizor, Mega Scizor, Starmie, and even Scarf Excadrill. The only chance someone could have to spin against Kabutops is Forretress, which is only at 3.46% usage, and is just set-up fodder for another SD, allowing you to sweep with aqua jet rain or shine (lol pun totally intentional) Also of course Char-Y can't switch into it anyways, because as i showed you he is 2hko'd by aqua jet even in the sun. His only hope is to try and force him out after a kill.

What Kabutops has over azumarill is speed, and being able to set up without resorting to belly drum, Azumarill is better without rain, but thats why it has an A+ rank, as far is in rain, Kabutops is an undoubtedly better sweeper thanks to easier set up, Swift swim, and being able to hit any priority user with an aqua jet before they can hit him, (excluding Extremespeed, of course) while azumarill is vulnerable to being revenged by faster priority like a talon BB, this is why I propose it be moved to a B+ and not higher, for being an excellent sweeper, but requiring some support.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Kabutops is great but yeah, it needs rain, it'll only ever be useful on a rain team (which I do think are pretty strong right now.) I'm fine if it doesn't raise.

edit: by no means saying it's bad; it's a nightmare under rain, it's so hard to check and unless the opponent has a handful of specific pokemon it'll likely sweep entire teams at +2 and under rain (provided stone miss doesn't miss.) But it needs rain.

 

[mrglass]

I'm not trying to debate this, but just get some clarification. What makes Manaphy stand out this gen? Rain is far less common and less reliable for Hydration stall, and I can't see Tail Glow alone earning something an A+ rank.

 

[AA-j]

I'm not trying to debate this, but just get some clarification. What makes Manaphy stand out this gen? Rain is far less common and less reliable for Hydration stall, and I can't see Tail Glow alone earning something an A+ rank.

It has excellent coverage options and its decently bulky uninvested.

 

[Baharoth]

and I can't see Tail Glow alone earning something an A+ rank.

Well but thats basicly it. After just 1 boost it becomes very difficult to stop, its speed tier is not the best but that is somewhat compensated by its fairly decent bulk. There arent many save counters outside of the blobs and even checking it can be difficult sometimes because despite that there are quite a few things that outspeed it, most of them fail to ohko and get nailed in return so most of the time you will need 2 pokes to stop it and lose one in the process. Id say its the most dangerous watertype in the tier and imo one of the best sweepers in general so i cant realy complain about its A+ ranking.

 

[Salemance]

While breloom is a problem for it, being stopped by an extremely uncommon mon does not warrant that it be kept out of the B category, as even the mons in the S rank have hard counters. Now lets check the other grass types that might be seen in OU since it is "Stopped dead" by them.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 359-422 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 386-454 (89.3 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Note that with rocks, they are both guaranteed OHKO's.
neither of them can switch into Kabutops, and your only real chance at stopping it would be ferrothorn, who still has a 63% chance of being 2HKO'd with rocks.

Your argument for Charizard-Y countering it is flawed again by the fact that in the rain, Kabutops both outspeeds and OHKO's every single defogger and rapid spinner in OU, including Latias, Scizor, Mega Scizor, Starmie, and even Scarf Excadrill. The only chance someone could have to spin against Kabutops is Forretress, which is only at 3.46% usage, and is just set-up fodder for another SD, allowing you to sweep with aqua jet rain or shine (lol pun totally intentional) Also of course Char-Y can't switch into it anyways, because as i showed you he is 2hko'd by aqua jet even in the sun. His only hope is to try and force him out after a kill.

What Kabutops has over azumarill is speed, and being able to set up without resorting to belly drum, Azumarill is better without rain, but thats why it has an A+ rank, as far is in rain, Kabutops is an undoubtedly better sweeper thanks to easier set up, Swift swim, and being able to hit any priority user with an aqua jet before they can hit him, (excluding Extremespeed, of course) while azumarill is vulnerable to being revenged by faster priority like a talon BB, this is why I propose it be moved to a B+ and not higher, for being an excellent sweeper, but requiring some support.

Why Amoonguss over Chestnaught I may not know...

Anyway, Kabutops is a great guy, but lets compare him to another Rain Abuser who is in the B area, Tornadus-T.

Now, they both abuse it in key ways. Tor for having a reliable Special Flying Attack (reliable STABs not name Earthquake and Knock Off are so hard to come by) and Kabutops in Swift Swim and basically and adaptability boost to its Water type attacks (which is nice since 117 attack can only go so far). We can count many ways they function with rain, but for viability sake, we will examine the scenario without rain.

Kabutops has Weak Armor as his next logical option if he wants use outside of rain (and counter rain) which is so-so. He loses defense for speed, which doesn't affect it for the FIRST hit, but subsequent ones, it gets silly. While this ability is not ideal, its better than nothing in a scenario where rain can be gone in an instant, making it useless. This is where I believe we get to the real problem with Kabutops as its ability is both situational and not depending on the circumstances. Then he has semi-weak moves to abuse with. Base 80 for Waterfall is a little disappointing outside of rain, and 60 Base Power (after STAB) is a let down in MANY cases (look at what HP can no longer Ohko for example) and in rain that is lifted to 90 which works great for Scizor, but he has much higher damage and gets alot of that damage from also slapping a CB on too, which Kabu using in rain is silly ( for both priority and just in general). I will however not discredit Stone Edge, as its cons Nd pros are listed for any guy who uses it constantly

Torn on the other hand, has an ability that is never situational as it recovers ALL POSSIBLE hazard damage and allows it to be one of the best pivots. It is useful in almost any circumstances with a great ability that is not affected by outside circumstances (bar SR). He also has a usable speed tier, one which allows him to spam attacks not named priority (which incidentally, have a great deal of power behind them from the get go).


Yes we all know the power of the mighty Trilobite, but he, like a many SSer, are ranked for their ability in Rain, and with that not being such a sure fire thing, his ranking is more than enough.

 

[Scarbo]

I'm not convinced Manaphy deserves A+ rank either. As a general rule, boosting only your offensive stats isn't a great strategy unless you have either strong priority (think Bisharp, Mawile, Azumarill) or outstanding speed (NP Thundurus). Manaphy has neither, so it relies on its bulk to set up and attempt a sweep. This has its own problems though. First, Manaphy's bulk isn't that amazing. If it takes a hit while setting up, it becomes pretty easy to revenge with faster mons and most offensive teams will have at least 1-2 of these. Some faster mons like LO Thundurus or Specs Latios can OHKO it despite its bulk or easily put it the range where any priority will kill. Second, Manaphy is very predictable. It's practically forced to set up when it comes in, since it can't do much damage with its unimpressive 100 SpA and 90 BP STAB (usually fails to OHKO Thundurus with Ice Beam even after rocks, while not even 2HKOing Latias). It's low initial power means it has trouble creating setup opportunities by forcing swaps, meaning it can usually be hit and from there easily revenged. Finally, Tail Glow's +3 boost looks impressive, but it isn't really all that amazing. AV mon such as Conkeldurr and Goodra can take a hit and revenge a damaged Manaphy, along with things that resist its STAB without being weak to its coverage like Kyurem-B. It's not punching through Chansey even going to +6, and Unaware Clefable exists to stop any attempt at a sweep. It's also worth mentioning that due to its low special attack weak STAB, +3 Manaphy is sometimes even outdamaged by more powerful attacks like Garchomp's Earthquake at +2. All this being said though, it fares well enough against most of the top tier that it's easily A rank based on its Tail Glow set alone. I don't have enough experience with a Rest/Calm Mind set to comment on this.

All calcs assume Leftovers, since this is its most common item by overwhelming percentages and Life Orb other problems.

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 374-439 (109.6 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 198-234 (66 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 132-156 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 282-332 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 192-226 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 223-263 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 313-369 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Unaware Clefable: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 306-361 (89.7 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 327-385 (95.8 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Ass vest goodra is shit anyway.

Wacan berry manaphy is also a thing, I think someone used it in SPL.

 

[Rotosect]

Tail Glow sweeping isn't everything Manaphy is good at.
It can also run a pivot set with Scald, Knock Off (which royally fucks up the inevitable Chansey switch in) and U-Turn with a bulky EV spread and and play in a similar fashion as the other common pivots like Landorus-T and Celebi.
The threat of Tail Glow makes this set especially effective at spreading burns, dropping items and grabbing momentum.

 

[jg1198]

Why Amoonguss over Chestnaught I may not know...

Anyway, Kabutops is a great guy, but lets compare him to another Rain Abuser who is in the B area, Tornadus-T.

Now, they both abuse it in key ways. Tor for having a reliable Special Flying Attack (reliable STABs not name Earthquake and Knock Off are so hard to come by) and Kabutops in Swift Swim and basically and adaptability boost to its Water type attacks (which is nice since 117 attack can only go so far). We can count many ways they function with rain, but for viability sake, we will examine the scenario without rain.

Kabutops has Weak Armor as his next logical option if he wants use outside of rain (and counter rain) which is so-so. He loses defense for speed, which doesn't affect it for the FIRST hit, but subsequent ones, it gets silly. While this ability is not ideal, its better than nothing in a scenario where rain can be gone in an instant, making it useless. This is where I believe we get to the real problem with Kabutops as its ability is both situational and not depending on the circumstances. Then he has semi-weak moves to abuse with. Base 80 for Waterfall is a little disappointing outside of rain, and 60 Base Power (after STAB) is a let down in MANY cases (look at what HP can no longer Ohko for example) and in rain that is lifted to 90 which works great for Scizor, but he has much higher damage and gets alot of that damage from also slapping a CB on too, which Kabu using in rain is silly ( for both priority and just in general). I will however not discredit Stone Edge, as its cons Nd pros are listed for any guy who uses it constantly

Torn on the other hand, has an ability that is never situational as it recovers ALL POSSIBLE hazard damage and allows it to be one of the best pivots. It is useful in almost any circumstances with a great ability that is not affected by outside circumstances (bar SR). He also has a usable speed tier, one which allows him to spam attacks not named priority (which incidentally, have a great deal of power behind them from the get go).


Yes we all know the power of the mighty Trilobite, but he, like a many SSer, are ranked for their ability in Rain, and with that not being such a sure fire thing, his ranking is more than enough.

I understand and have stated several times that yes, Kabutops does need support in the form of rain, but the amount of OHKO's and 2HKO's it gets while being extremely hard to revenge thanks to his speed boost, priority that outspeeds almost all other priority, and resistance to extremespeed, makes it an extremely viable sweeper, at the cost of some support. I also don't understand why people act as though rain is so hard to keep up, as most teams do not carry a weather setter, and all common weather setters are very easily taken out by Kabutops, especially if rocks are up for Char-Y, and changing the weather is by no means a total stop to Kabutops, as bringing in a Tyranitar or Hippowdon invites Kabutops to either eliminate it, or smack a switch in with a +2 life orb boosted STAB attack, which is still going to hurt, with or without rain, as shown in the calcs of stone edge, which of course is not boosted by rain, destroying mega Venusaur. And of course, even if you can't get to +2, Rain and life orb is often more than enough to clean up weakened offensive teams. Kabutops is by no means helpless before a boost. All of this together, should definitely be enough to get Kabutops moved up to at least a minimum of a B- tier, in the company of mons such as Roserade, Zygarde, and Sharpedo.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I agree with dropping Manaphy. It can't compare to the other A+ rank pokemons. I've used this thing in this gen and it's just underwhelming. The Tail Glow set (which is probably the best set) is too limited, and +3 is great but there are ways to get around a pokemon with any +X boost on attack that any team should have, plus a lot of things resist this +3. It's hard to get, and after you get it, you tend to end up with a low HP Manaphy. Azumarill does the same job with +6 and actual priority.

I believe it should be A, or maybe even A-.

 

[AA-j]

I agree with dropping Manaphy. It can't compare to the other A+ rank pokemons. I've used this thing in this gen and it's just underwhelming. The Tail Glow set (which is probably the best set) is too limited, and +3 is great but there are ways to get around a pokemon with any +X boost on attack that any team should have, plus a lot of things resist this +3. It's hard to get, and after you get it, you tend to end up with a low HP Manaphy. Azumarill does the same job with +6 and actual priority.

I believe it should be A, or maybe even A-.

azumarill is weakened by it too

 

[Ninja Charizard]

azumarill is weakened by it too

That's exactly what I said, Azumarill does the same "weaken yourself to sweep" thing. The difference is that Azumarill has to weaken itself a little more, but it gets a +6 priority attack.

 

[Salemance]

I understand and have stated several times that yes, Kabutops does need support in the form of rain, but the amount of OHKO's and 2HKO's it gets while being extremely hard to revenge thanks to his speed boost, priority that outspeeds almost all other priority, and resistance to extremespeed, makes it an extremely viable sweeper, at the cost of some support. I also don't understand why people act as though rain is so hard to keep up, as most teams do not carry a weather setter, and all common weather setters are very easily taken out by Kabutops, especially if rocks are up for Char-Y, and changing the weather is by no means a total stop to Kabutops, as bringing in a Tyranitar or Hippowdon invites Kabutops to either eliminate it, or smack a switch in with a +2 life orb boosted STAB attack, which is still going to hurt, with or without rain, as shown in the calcs of stone edge, which of course is not boosted by rain, destroying mega Venusaur. And of course, even if you can't get to +2, Rain and life orb is often more than enough to clean up weakened offensive teams. Kabutops is by no means helpless before a boost. All of this together, should definitely be enough to get Kabutops moved up to at least a minimum of a B- tier, in the company of mons such as Roserade, Zygarde, and Sharpedo.

Yes you did state that, but I was just restating it as points for my points. I will say a few things on what you said though as they themselves are good points and I would like to discuss them as well.

Everything you said is true, but I believe the perception of rain is just how it seems so...out of place now. We have new ways to combat it (via Mega evolving to start wather, thus combating a switch in) and that people seeing it as easier to fight make it seem less reliable. It doesn't help that Poli is still lack luster, and that he now is required to take more damage than before (true, a secondary dancer is lovely with him) via multiple switch ins, more than weather wars of old and such.

His power, as I stated earlier, is undeniably great with him being one of the best SSers, but he is weak to Ground, Fighting, Electric, Grass (x4), and while he has useful resistances and nice base Defense, he is un able to switch in as easily and set up like he would wish. Resisting three of the most used on Priorities are nice, but he is also weak to the other two (which is debatably an issue as Jet is neutral to most users of those two moves while being faster) but he is also weak to some of the most common coverage moves in the game. Earthquake, Thunderbolt, and Close Combat are always an issue, and his Special Defense almost certainly leads to death while his Defense can save him from most, to just making them 2HKOs. His switch in opportunities are not very fun sadly as that hurts him.

To the Pokemon you mentioned, I see it as an interesting quandary. Sharpedo almost certainly needs to drop in my mind, the other two have earned the spots well. Sure Zygarde isn't Gar, but its not suppose to be. It has its own traits to abuse in the fun SubCoil set and, if you really want, the DDance set. Roserade is one of the best offensive Grass type special attackers as it is able to break through common grass walls with Technician boosted HP and give great support in a variety of ways.

The comments on it being moved up is nice, but I just don't know if B- needs yet another guy in there... I believe that is what's making me argue harder than normal, but I do not yet think Kabu is able to get any higher in my mind.

Although the fact that Sharpedo of all things is above it sickens me...

 

[Scarbo]

Once it sets up a Tail Glow, it's pretty much unstoppable. 100/100/100 defenses are actually really good for an offensive, pokemon. Its main flaw, and why it isn't S ranked, or banned, is its mediocre speed. An offensive pokemon's bulk shouldn't really be measured by how much it takes from Choice Specs pokemon with 130 Base Special attack; it isn't its job to take those hits. Manaphy should come in late game, set up on something like Mandibuzz, and proceed to wreck. Its counters should be already disposed of when it tries to sweep late game.

Manaphy needs to be able to take strong hits if it wants to sweep. An offensive team isn't going to let Manaphy set up for free; it's usually going to hit it very hard as it sets up, sac something, then send in something that outspeeds/has priority to kill it. The list of things you need to remove before sweeping is massive. Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, Bisharp, Deoxys-S, Garchomp, Keldeo, Lando, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Sand Excadrill, Lati@s, Dragonite, and Terrakion will all hit it very hard and either outspeed or use priority, while Aegislash, Kyurem-B, Gyarados, and AV Conkeldurr will tank a hit from +3 Manaphy after rocks. Charizard Y also need to be removed before attempting a sweep as sun will stop it from dealing significant damage to most things. Its setup opportunities are also very limited. In the S and A ranks, only Deoxys-D, Heatran, Clefable, Hippowdon, Greninja, Mandibuzz, Chansey, Skarmory, and maybe Scizor will usually not be able to hit Manaphy for at least 50% and most of these will usually carry something that can stop Manaphy from setting up (status/phazing) or straight up beat it. Stall will give it more chances to setup, but will always have at least one of Chansey or Unaware Clefable to stop it in its tracks, not counter Mega Venusaur who checks variants lacking Psychic very well.

This is a lot of support required before sweeping. A+ doesn't really seem justified.

Edit: Not going to clutter the thread by responding again. Offense saccing a mon is only in the edge case that they can't simply keep it from doing anything by 2HKOing with something faster as it sets up or swap to something that can OHKO as it sets up. Manaphy is also fairly bad against offense simply because it provides few resistances and is 2HKOed by most strong attacks while also needed to stay healthy in order to do anything at all. Anyway, there are tons of Pokemon can usually get a kill when they get a free swap in the right situation (especially against offense), most without needing to waste turns on setup.

 

[jg1198]

Yes you did state that, but I was just restating it as points for my points. I will say a few things on what you said though as they themselves are good points and I would like to discuss them as well.

Everything you said is true, but I believe the perception of rain is just how it seems so...out of place now. We have new ways to combat it (via Mega evolving to start wather, thus combating a switch in) and that people seeing it as easier to fight make it seem less reliable. It doesn't help that Poli is still lack luster, and that he now is required to take more damage than before (true, a secondary dancer is lovely with him) via multiple switch ins, more than weather wars of old and such.

His power, as I stated earlier, is undeniably great with him being one of the best SSers, but he is weak to Ground, Fighting, Electric, Grass (x4), and while he has useful resistances and nice base Defense, he is un able to switch in as easily and set up like he would wish. Resisting three of the most used on Priorities are nice, but he is also weak to the other two (which is debatably an issue as Jet is neutral to most users of those two moves while being faster) but he is also weak to some of the most common coverage moves in the game. Earthquake, Thunderbolt, and Close Combat are always an issue, and his Special Defense almost certainly leads to death while his Defense can save him from most, to just making them 2HKOs. His switch in opportunities are not very fun sadly as that hurts him.

To the Pokemon you mentioned, I see it as an interesting quandary. Sharpedo almost certainly needs to drop in my mind, the other two have earned the spots well. Sure Zygarde isn't Gar, but its not suppose to be. It has its own traits to abuse in the fun SubCoil set and, if you really want, the DDance set. Roserade is one of the best offensive Grass type special attackers as it is able to break through common grass walls with Technician boosted HP and give great support in a variety of ways.

The comments on it being moved up is nice, but I just don't know if B- needs yet another guy in there... I believe that is what's making me argue harder than normal, but I do not yet think Kabu is able to get any higher in my mind.

Although the fact that Sharpedo of all things is above it sickens me...

That's the issue though, is that it is people's perception of rain that is holding it back. Rain teams are very easy to use, and a well built team will be able to stop other weather setters with ease, so it's a lot easier to maintain rain in the current metagame than many people believe it to be. The thing though is that Kabutops doesn't need to switch into an attack so often, as you can use rain setters like Uxie to bring Kabutops in with a slow u-turn, or sac a Deo-S after setting up the rain Kabutops needs. At that point, it's easy to come in on something you force out in this surprisingly water weak meta game, set up an SD, and sweep entire teams. The amount of OHKO's Kabutops gets is amazing, and it's ability to run straight through the most common answers to SD sweepers is what makes it really deserving of at least a B-. I mean is anyone really opposed to Sharpedo and Kabutops switching places? In case you still need convincing, here are some calcs I guess.

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 304-359 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 294-347 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 465-550 (153.9 - 182.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 359-422 (98.6 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T in Rain: 595-702 (155.7 - 183.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire in Rain: 208-246 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this means it can't switch in, which means that Kabutops is going to take something down first, and dont forget that evil little flinch chance on waterfall)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable in Rain: 250-294 (63.4 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (same story here, but also note that moonblast only does 50-59%)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus in Rain: 343-406 (114.3 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (sorry, you won't even get a chance to T-Wave)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 298-351 (89.2 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed with stealth rocks)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield in Rain: 363-426 (112 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (I'll admit mind games are involved here)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor in Rain: 383-452 (111.3 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (meanwhile 252+ BP is 52% max)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 386-454 (95.5 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn in Rain: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this is literally one of two things that can stand up to it)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 195-230 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (this is the only other counter and its still pretty shaky)

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

His power, as I stated earlier, is undeniably great with him being one of the best SSers, but he is weak to Ground, Fighting, Electric, Grass (x4), and while he has useful resistances and nice base Defense, he is un able to switch in as easily and set up like he would wish. Resisting three of the most used on Priorities are nice, but he is also weak to the other two (which is debatably an issue as Jet is neutral to most users of those two moves while being faster) but he is also weak to some of the most common coverage moves in the game. Earthquake, Thunderbolt, and Close Combat are always an issue, and his Special Defense almost certainly leads to death while his Defense can save him from most, to just making them 2HKOs. His switch in opportunities are not very fun sadly as that hurts him.

While I sort of agree that Kabutops shouldn't be raised, it's only because it only fits one specific team type. All the reasons you stated are honestly not that relevant to Kabutop's performance, it's going to be coming in after a KO (e.g. a suicide lead) or a pivot at worst. Yeah it's frail as hell and doesn't have the best defensive typing but it's faster than Deo-S, and while priority exists it can still survive CB Scizor's bullet punch and CB Azumarill's Jet (in rain.)

CB Scizor and Azu (with a lot of prior damage,) Mach Punch users (not Infernape,) Ferrothorn, 252/252+ Mega Venusaur, and King's Shield mind games: these are really the only things that can stop Kabutops cold (as well as some mostly irrelevant stuff like Gastrodon.) Stone Miss is a bitch too.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-100070389 <- this is the sort of thing that happens when they don't have those things (I know dancing in front of gliscor was a little risky, and he should have sent Magnezone out after Zapdos was KOed)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-100105849 <- CB Scizor isn't enough anyway (I know I got a perfect chance to set up)

Those are both pretty low on the ladder (still getting my "rain team" alt up) but it's really just showing what it can do under good conditions. And really, those conditions are not that hard to meet: the things that can reliably stop Kabutops can be counted on one hand. The real issue with it is that setting up with SD depends on the opponent letting you; the number of stuff it can outright OHKO is pretty high, but knowledgeable opponents will strive to never let it get a free turn.

I still opt for C, because it really does require support and HO Rain is pretty niche. The entire team has to be dedicated in some way to that playstyle; Kabutops can in no way be stuck onto any team like a lot of the things in A and S can.

 

[Meru]

Manaphy needs to be able to take strong hits if it wants to sweep. An offensive team isn't going to let Manaphy set up for free; it's usually going to hit it very hard as it sets up, sac something, then send in something that outspeeds/has priority to kill it. The list of things you need to remove before sweeping is massive. Mega Pinsir, Thundurus, Bisharp, Deoxys-S, Garchomp, Keldeo, Lando, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Sand Excadrill, Lati@s, Dragonite, and Terrakion will all hit it very hard and either outspeed or use priority, while Aegislash, Kyurem-B, Gyarados, and AV Conkeldurr will tank a hit from +3 Manaphy after rocks. Charizard Y also need to be removed before attempting a sweep as sun will stop it from dealing significant damage to most things. Its setup opportunities are also very limited. In the S and A ranks, only Deoxys-D, Heatran, Clefable, Hippowdon, Greninja, Mandibuzz, Chansey, Skarmory, and maybe Scizor will usually not be able to hit Manaphy for at least 50% and most of these will usually carry something that can stop Manaphy from setting up (status/phazing) or straight up beat it. Stall will give it more chances to setup, but will always have at least one of Chansey or Unaware Clefable to stop it in its tracks, not counter Mega Venusaur who checks variants lacking Psychic very well.

This is a lot of support required before sweeping. A+ doesn't really seem justified.

Manaphy is bad because it always causes the opponent to sac something? What.

And Manaphy is bad against stall because the opponent might carry one of Manaphy's few counters? Some of the logic in this post is completely borked.