Deoxys-N is in banned from everything but Ubers. Does anybody actually use it in Ubers? No. Just because something is banned in one metagame doesn't mean its good in the next one up; that's why BL mons aren't in OU right now.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Actually Deoxys-N is ranked in the Ubers Viability thread.
But regardless we do not have to rank a pokemon as viable simply because its BL
Actually, the fact that Hawlucha is BL seems like a good enough reason to rank it. It was rejected for an analysis until it got banned from UU, and now it's getting one solely because it's banned and it's very unlikely that it will get dropped back down permanently. If its BL status is enough for it to get an analysis, it's should be reason enough for it to be ranked here. That said, it's still horribly outclassed and generally not worth using so we could probably just stick it in D and call it good.
I think that all the pokemon that got more usage than 2,5% in the stats designed for tiering, are BL, are in the S or A+ Rank of UU or they are in the Top 10 of UU should be ranked in my opinion.
Why don't people use it? Outclassed by Deo-A?
Thanks for the catch, going to edit that!
Florges is the queen of UU but it's not getting ranked. Arcanine also not getting ranked. Doublade is decent, but I don't see any reason to use it when you can just use Aegislash.
It's not.
Salt the Flesh is right: if it's getting an analysis because it can only be used in OU (and ubers) then it can be ranked. Hawlucha tore UU a new one because it outsped the entire tier, including scarfers; its two STABs had high power, good coverage and at +2 OHKOed pretty much everything; and UU has almost no good priority users.
I don't know how well Hawlucha could do in OU. Flying/Fighting is super good coverage, only missing out on Zapdos, Thundurus and Aegislash, but Hawlucha can OHKO Aegislash with +2 Fling Dread Plate and a bit of previous damage. There are strong priority users in OU, and while Hawlucha is not that bulky it's just enough to survive any priority move barring Talonflame; it can even survive Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack. Hawlucha can afford to run 252 HP EVs, because after unburden activates it can outspeed Deo-S with no investment; however it may want to invest a bit in speed to outspeed certain things before Unburden.
I forget if Unburden lasts after switching out though, I don't think it does which would severely limit its usability since it'd be a win condition only; if it's forced out it's done. I've never used it, I've almost never seen it so I don't know where it should be ranked. C sounds good though, because while I think it could do well against offensive teams if given the chance to boost, I feel like it'd do poorly against defensive teams, who have many options to take care of it like Zapdos, Quagesire, Clefable, Land-T, Hippowdon and others. It looks okay on paper though; Kabutops with better STABs, even better speed and no need for rain.
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I think by reading its analysis you'll get the gist of why it shouldn't be used.
Anyways, since Hawlucha seems to be a popular topic right now, I might as well weigh in. I redact my previous statement of "sticking it in D" because it's actually pretty dangerous under the right circumstances. Flying/Fighting is an amazing STAB combo, and being able to boost with Swords Dance and very easily get to +2 Speed with Unburden and Red Card/Sitrus Berry/Power Herb etc. makes it a terrifying sweeper if you take out opposing priority. That said, taking out opposing priority is probably easier said than done since most teams carry 2-3 users, and being extremely frail and weak to Talonflame's Brave Bird/Pinsir's Quick Attack doesn't do it any favors. Solid C is probably the best place imo.
Hawlucha isn't viable in my opinion. It's mostly outclassed by talonflame as a cleaner with talonflame having the advantage of being a much more reliable revenge killer. Hawlucha isn't weak to stealth rock and doesn't have problems with rock types and heatran, but the advantages of talonflame outweigh hawlucha's. Hawlucha is also outclassed by staraptor as a teammate for talonflame meaning he also has no use on a dual birds core.
Also, mega pinsir. Hawlucha is unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place being BL but a very poor choice for OU. If it has to be ranked because of a technicality, give it a D.
Also, mega pinsir. Hawlucha is unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place being BL but a very poor choice for OU. If it has to be ranked because of a technicality, give it a D.
None of the other birds have a STAB fighting move to hit Rocks and Steels hard. Staraptor has Close Combat, but it's only 120 BP, while Hawlucha's HJK has a 195 BP. It has other benefits, such as a neutrality to SR and unburden, which make it, in my opinion, viable. It's not as easy to use as the other birds/"birds," but it still has things to positively differentiate itself from its competition.
While the set mac1275 posted appears off-putting, I have to nominate Mega Aerodactyl for B-.
First off, its Speed is just astronomical. With a neutral Nature, it outspeeds positive-Natured 130s, just about the entire unboosted metagame. It has an impressive offensive typing in Rock, and a very expansive offensive movepool containing the Elemental Fangs, Aqua Tail, Aerial Ace, Crunch, Iron Head, Dragon Claw, and even Pursuit, who would've thought? All of these attacks also greatly benefit from Tough Claws; with the boost, Mega Aerodactyl can 2HKO notoriously physically defensive Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T (after Intimidate), Mega Tyranitar, and Hippowdon. That same offensive typing also gives it an important resistance to Flying. With all taken into account, it is a Pokemon capable of checking top threats as Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, non-Scarf Keldeo, Thundurus (ignoring Thunder Wave), and Dragonite, with the latter still being outpaced at +1. While it has its flaws in being weak to common types, priority moves, and Stealth Rock, C ranking seems rather undermining its full potential, in my opinion.
First off, its Speed is just astronomical. With a neutral Nature, it outspeeds positive-Natured 130s, just about the entire unboosted metagame. It has an impressive offensive typing in Rock, and a very expansive offensive movepool containing the Elemental Fangs, Aqua Tail, Aerial Ace, Crunch, Iron Head, Dragon Claw, and even Pursuit, who would've thought? All of these attacks also greatly benefit from Tough Claws; with the boost, Mega Aerodactyl can 2HKO notoriously physically defensive Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T (after Intimidate), Mega Tyranitar, and Hippowdon. That same offensive typing also gives it an important resistance to Flying. With all taken into account, it is a Pokemon capable of checking top threats as Mega Charizard X and Y, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, non-Scarf Keldeo, Thundurus (ignoring Thunder Wave), and Dragonite, with the latter still being outpaced at +1. While it has its flaws in being weak to common types, priority moves, and Stealth Rock, C ranking seems rather undermining its full potential, in my opinion.
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So it basically suffers from the Florges Syndrome.
Sort of, but Florges also has completely useless abilities
No, I mean, "would be a great pokemon in the tier if there wasn't another one that is best in absolutely everything".
Pressure's pretty useless on Deo-N too.
I agree with all of this except that my set was offputing lol. I just wanted to showcase Mega aerodactyl's surprising utility as a defensive Pokemon to showcase how useful it can be outside of its normal offensive role. The offensive sets are clearly the better sets, but the defensive sets allow Aero to counter things instead of just check them. If you try it, you'll be surprised how effective it can be (however zapdos can wall all but staraptors double edge in the talonraptor core I mentioned). I second the B- ranking if that isn't obvious already.
Personally, I believe Zapdos to be the superior defensive Flying-type courtesy of it's better defensive stats and typing. Still, it could always come to fruition if it manages to distinguish itself.
I think I'll propose something rather radical. Shoot me down if you want, but I firmly believe this change could happen.
Bisharp for S-Rank.
Let's face it; Bisharp is one of the most threatening Pokemon in this generation, and its mere presence on a team puts immense pressure on the opponent before the battle even starts. It's great against pretty much every team style; offensive teams can't switch in on Bisharp's extremely powerful Knock Offs, and must be wary of Defogging hazards away (which should always be used with Bisharp) because of Defiant. Sucker Punch also obliterates pretty much everything that might be able to outspeed and KO it, bar Fighting-types who resist it.
Defensive teams are in the same boat, constantly worn down by hazards and discouraged from Defogging as there isn't much a defensive team can do once Bisharp obtains +2.
Bisharp also completely fucks the most common defoggers. Latias and Latios are helpless against Pursuit, and the bulkiest Defoggers, namely Mandibuzz and Skarmory, are completely crippled when they take a boosted hit from Bisharp and they can't do anything back to it. The aformentioned Pursuit is also useful against Aegislash, and because Defiant effectively nullifies King's Shield's drop, it can spam Knock Off/Pursuit against Aegislash without worry. Because of that, Bisharp is the only Pokemon capable of trapping Aegislash.
Bisharp's presence on a team puts immediate pressure on the opponent, regardless of the team you have. Bisharp is one of those Pokemon that you absolutely need an answer to, and if you don't you'll get completely destroyed. It's mere presence completely discourages the use of Defog, as most Defoggers have no way to beat Bisharp without sacrificing general utility. Bisharp is a crucial member of Deoxys offense teams, and the unique and powerful pressure it provides against the opponent along with being absurdly powerful and difficult to counter makes up for Bisharp's flaws, making it worthy of S-Rank in my eyes.
I'm not the most well versed in OU and I probably could have been more elaborate on some points as I'm not as experienced a battler as most others, though I have used Bisharp pretty extensively and have knowledge of its capabilities. If you want to dispute me, go ahead but I firmly believe that Bisharp is one of the most influential and threatening offensive Pokemon in the current metagame due to its unique capabilities, probably only second to Charizard in terms of the offensive pressure that it can exert on the enemy. It definitely deserves S-rank.
Let's face it; Bisharp is one of the most threatening Pokemon in this generation, and its mere presence on a team puts immense pressure on the opponent before the battle even starts. It's great against pretty much every team style; offensive teams can't switch in on Bisharp's extremely powerful Knock Offs, and must be wary of Defogging hazards away (which should always be used with Bisharp) because of Defiant. Sucker Punch also obliterates pretty much everything that might be able to outspeed and KO it, bar Fighting-types who resist it.
Defensive teams are in the same boat, constantly worn down by hazards and discouraged from Defogging as there isn't much a defensive team can do once Bisharp obtains +2.
Bisharp also completely fucks the most common defoggers. Latias and Latios are helpless against Pursuit, and the bulkiest Defoggers, namely Mandibuzz and Skarmory, are completely crippled when they take a boosted hit from Bisharp and they can't do anything back to it. The aformentioned Pursuit is also useful against Aegislash, and because Defiant effectively nullifies King's Shield's drop, it can spam Knock Off/Pursuit against Aegislash without worry. Because of that, Bisharp is the only Pokemon capable of trapping Aegislash.
Bisharp's presence on a team puts immediate pressure on the opponent, regardless of the team you have. Bisharp is one of those Pokemon that you absolutely need an answer to, and if you don't you'll get completely destroyed. It's mere presence completely discourages the use of Defog, as most Defoggers have no way to beat Bisharp without sacrificing general utility. Bisharp is a crucial member of Deoxys offense teams, and the unique and powerful pressure it provides against the opponent along with being absurdly powerful and difficult to counter makes up for Bisharp's flaws, making it worthy of S-Rank in my eyes.
I'm not the most well versed in OU and I probably could have been more elaborate on some points as I'm not as experienced a battler as most others, though I have used Bisharp pretty extensively and have knowledge of its capabilities. If you want to dispute me, go ahead but I firmly believe that Bisharp is one of the most influential and threatening offensive Pokemon in the current metagame due to its unique capabilities, probably only second to Charizard in terms of the offensive pressure that it can exert on the enemy. It definitely deserves S-rank.
I think your set was fine, however I think a better EV spread would be 252 HP/192 Def/64 Spe with Jolly. This allows its base form, with 130 base speed, to outspeed Mega Pinsir, and its mega evolved form outspeed Jolly 252+ talonflame (e.g. it's locked into Flare Blitz,) so that you don't have to take a lot of unnecessary damage.
Mega Aerodactyl, I definitely agree with B- or even B. As far as I know, it's the only Pokemon with reliable recovery capable of countering all of Staraptor, Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, which absolutely gives it an important function in OU. Not only that, it gets Pursuit, which is boosted by Tough Claws, and a very fast Stealth Rock, making it very capable of eliminating opposing birds.
It's also a great revenge killer, as other have said.
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I would like to see Diggersby move up a rank. It has fantastic offensive typing and a great dual STAB with Earthquake and Frustration. Combine that with an Attack stat that's off the charts and you have a threatening powerhouse. It can fulfill multiple roles on a team e.g. Scarfer with U-turn, Swords Dance wallbreaker, Agility sweeper or a simple All-out attacker with Life Orb and Quick Attack. It also does a great job at checking Aegislash, which is currently everywhere.
Some calcs that show off the power of the SD set:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-313 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 211-248 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Some calcs that show off the power of the SD set:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-425 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-313 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 211-248 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
The thing I've always thought about Diggersby is that it's very similar to Mega Pinsir; they both have the exact same set (SD, Reutrn/Frustration, Earthquake, Quick Attack), the main differences are; 1. Diggersby takes far less damage from Stealth Rock (6.25% vs 25% or 50%) which allows him to come in and out of battle much more often than Pinsir if he needs to. 2. He has generally better defensive typing thanks to having 2 immunities to common attacking types in the tier, which allows him to act as pivot if need be or gives him a switch-in opportunity, which Pinsir finds it extremely difficult to do. 3. He doesn't use up your mega slot (which is a big deal here since they both basically do the same thing, so using Diggersby allows you to use a Mega that has more utility and less predictability than what Pinsir does). 4. Diggersby is less predictable than Pinsir and can run more viable sets (Banded, Scarfed, Standard SD) and thus also has more coverage options in the former cases. As for the flaws; 5. Diggersby's main STAB is worse than Pinsir's, since it has an immunity, which allows him to be completely walled by levitating ghosts. 6. Diggersby isn't as fast, making him rely more on his priority move than what Pinsir Does.
So on those grounds I could see Diggersby potentially moving up to B+ because of his similarities (and even numerous advantages) to an S-ranked pokemon.
So on those grounds I could see Diggersby potentially moving up to B+ because of his similarities (and even numerous advantages) to an S-ranked pokemon.
I think I'll propose something rather radical. Shoot me down if you want, but I firmly believe this change could happen.
Bisharp for S-Rank.
Let's face it; Bisharp is one of the most threatening Pokemon in this generation, and its mere presence on a team puts immense pressure on the opponent before the battle even starts. It's great against pretty much every team style; offensive teams can't switch in on Bisharp's extremely powerful Knock Offs, and must be wary of Defogging hazards away (which should always be used with Bisharp) because of Defiant. Sucker Punch also obliterates pretty much everything that might be able to outspeed and KO it, bar Fighting-types who resist it.
Defensive teams are in the same boat, constantly worn down by hazards and discouraged from Defogging as there isn't much a defensive team can do once Bisharp obtains +2.
Bisharp also completely fucks the most common defoggers. Latias and Latios are helpless against Pursuit, and the bulkiest Defoggers, namely Mandibuzz and Skarmory, are completely crippled when they take a boosted hit from Bisharp and they can't do anything back to it. The aformentioned Pursuit is also useful against Aegislash, and because Defiant effectively nullifies King's Shield's drop, it can spam Knock Off/Pursuit against Aegislash without worry. Because of that, Bisharp is the only Pokemon capable of trapping Aegislash.
Bisharp's presence on a team puts immediate pressure on the opponent, regardless of the team you have. Bisharp is one of those Pokemon that you absolutely need an answer to, and if you don't you'll get completely destroyed. It's mere presence completely discourages the use of Defog, as most Defoggers have no way to beat Bisharp without sacrificing general utility. Bisharp is a crucial member of Deoxys offense teams, and the unique and powerful pressure it provides against the opponent along with being absurdly powerful and difficult to counter makes up for Bisharp's flaws, making it worthy of S-Rank in my eyes.
I'm not the most well versed in OU and I probably could have been more elaborate on some points as I'm not as experienced a battler as most others, though I have used Bisharp pretty extensively and have knowledge of its capabilities. If you want to dispute me, go ahead but I firmly believe that Bisharp is one of the most influential and threatening offensive Pokemon in the current metagame due to its unique capabilities, probably only second to Charizard in terms of the offensive pressure that it can exert on the enemy. It definitely deserves S-rank.
I disagree. It's completely fine now in A+ because it has some flaws keeping it there. Let's start with the base 70 speed, which isn't really that impressive. I know it has Sucker Punch, but it's still slow. It's weak to a rather common priority move in Mach Punch, and it has no way of breaking down defensive megas (actually, just mega venusaur, and to an extent mega aggron) and a lot of the time, it depends on the opponent's defog, and therefore extensive hazard support, to do any serious work.
So yeah, low speed, depending on Defiant to do any serious work, and x4 weakness to Mach Punch keeps it in check and A+ is perfectly fine.
I nominate forretress for C. I know many people believe that spinning is all but but dead however there are many teams that can't really afford to have hazards on their side, but really appreciate their own hazards. One very specific example of this kind of team is volt turn. Volt turn teams love forretress. With its massive defense stat and sturdy ability, forretress is able to get at least one layer of hazards up against almost every team. Forretress also has the ability to lay both spikes and stealth rocks while preventing other hazards from the opponent with rapid spin. What sets forretress apart from deoxys defense and why it is a better lead for volt turn teams is it grabs momentum with either explosion or volt switch depending on whether you want a suicide lead or hazard control for the entire match. Nothing does what forretress does and in my opinion it is basically the deoxys d of volt turn. Now, obviously forry has some big issues that many teams can take advantage of like its frailty on the special side, low speed and lack of offensive presence, but its niche should not be undersold as it is a very important one.
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