As Weavile has been banished to BL for the unforeseeable future, it would propably be good to rank it somewhere. It faces good competition in its roles (revenge killing, late game sweeping), so I'd think it would fit in somewhere in C, as it's not hopeless enough to go in D. However, I don't have any experience with Weavile in OU, so this is all theorymon.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I've used it substantially, and I honestly feel it should be B-. It has a powerful Knock Off, which is invaluable in a metagame full of Chansey. It also has a good second STAB that comes with relatively powerful priority. Lastly, it can also use Low Kick to get past its checks and counters, as well as Pursuit trap frail Pokemon. Its main niche is its speed, but it still does have enough power. Its bulk is pitiful, but I think it deserves better than C or D.
B- is very appropriate for Weavile if you ask me. Knock Off is a huge buff and great new STAB to abuse. Seriously, Dark and Ice STABs are dastardly good to have, and it's virtually unrivaled speed tier gives it some of the fastest priority available. And with the combination of STAB Pursuit and Ice Shard it's effectively one of the best naturally fast revenge killers available without needing to use a scarf. Obviously its ridiculously bad defensive typing and frailty make him a bit hard to use. He's high risk high reward where your margin of error with him is small, but in expert hands he can be a deadly assassin. Here are some of the top threats he manhandles:
Thundurus
Landorus
Lati@s
Zapdos
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Gliscor
Bisharp with Low Kick
Talonflame with Stealth Rock
Tyranitar with Low Kick
Gengar
Competently B-, not hard justifying a team spot.
Thundurus
Landorus
Lati@s
Zapdos
Mega Pinsir
Aegislash
Gliscor
Bisharp with Low Kick
Talonflame with Stealth Rock
Tyranitar with Low Kick
Gengar
Competently B-, not hard justifying a team spot.
I think that C+ or B- would be right for it. It's really frail and has a horrible defensive typing. But its offensive typing is great, although it's rarely able to set up sd. It also lacks a little power when unboosted and its moves are relatively low base power (outside of knock off).
As a nitpick, metagame isn't full of chansey, it's barely ou. (not saying that it isn't great, it just doesn't get much usage, at least on lower end of the ladder)
Chansey is #23 by 1760 stats. I wouldn't call that barely OU. And it's going to be on absolutely every stall team anyway.
Wow it was uu like a month ago. The switch to 1760 really did raise it then. Still haven't seen many, but i am really low on ou ladder (around 1400).
I fully support Weavile moving to B-. It is THE dragon killer, and with ghosts gaining in popularity, it is also THE ghost killer. It can run nice coverage, only allowing it to be walled by azumarill. It is pretty much the ultimate check to things. Lati@s, Gengar, Aegislash, Landorus, and Gliscor are only a few of the mons on its hit list. Jaroda summed up its hit list perfectly, and it does more than that. It has a thing for giving offensive teams trouble, much like Greninja. Weavile needs to go to B-
Just to point this out, Weavile can't counter (or even win one on one) a lot of the pokemon that you listed.
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 182-218 (56.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 182-218 (69.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 620-732 (219.8 - 259.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 140-166 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 276-325 (97.8 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 334-394 (118.4 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sure none of these pokemon can counter Weavile themselves, but they certainly aren't bait for Weavile.
The prevalence of strong priority in OU, in conjuncture with its terrible bulk and stealth rock weakness make it very hard to keep alive throughout the match. Additionally, the relative decrease of threatening set up sweepers with 4* ice weakness (and there's always the terrifying prospect of weakness policy Dragonite) has made Weavile's niche even smaller in OU. It still has a few strong points namely its crazy speed in a meta with few scarfers and a buffed knock off, which I think is a decent enough reason to put it in C+.
Edit: I also disagree with you on saying that its easy to justify giving Weavile a teamspot. I think people often understate the importance of defensive synergy, especially on HO teams. Even HO teams, where Weavile is often found, rely on defensive synergy to switch into resited attacks and keep the momentum. Weavile provides almost no defensive synergy whatsoever, and that really shouldn't be overlooked. (Deoxys-S and other suicide leads are different as they have an extremely specific function for the team and are only meant to be used once.)
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Your comment regarding defensive synergy is valid and C+ is worth consideration, but I specifically stressed Weavile's role as a revenge killer. There are few pokemon with full health I would encourage sending Weavile up against. Guaranteed to do more than 50% health to Mega Pinsir and go first is pretty good insurance is you ask me. Same with a weakened Talonflame, as most do not go Jolly, as your calc demonstrates. Talonflame at less than 50% risk Roost/Brave Bird, as well as switching out thanks to Pursuit. That's intense pressure. That's what I meant by revenging. If you play HO or BO and you're going tit-for-tat, Weavile's combination of speed, and STAB Pursuit/Ice Shard make it much easier to revenge kill and ensure would be threats don't escape. That's a very good niche to have. Agreed, he isn't the easiest to use and can't switch in worth a dime, but you can say that about a lot of the would be B- brethren (Alakazam, Roserade, Staraptor, Breloom, Mega Absol).
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
opposed to
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Weavile is unique enough to not really be eclipsed by anything, outside of pure power in his priority, and being the fastest user of STAB Pursuit and being able to outspeed Greninja (without being locked into scarf) is pretty damn handy. The only really common pokemon you are likely to see naturally running more speed are Mega Manectric and Deoxys-S. Manectric doesn't have priority or Pursiot to use, and while Deoxys does it has a million better options and rarely if ever chooses Extreme Speed.
If you play Weavile to his strengths and properly, he is certainly B-
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
opposed to
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
Weavile is unique enough to not really be eclipsed by anything, outside of pure power in his priority, and being the fastest user of STAB Pursuit and being able to outspeed Greninja (without being locked into scarf) is pretty damn handy. The only really common pokemon you are likely to see naturally running more speed are Mega Manectric and Deoxys-S. Manectric doesn't have priority or Pursiot to use, and while Deoxys does it has a million better options and rarely if ever chooses Extreme Speed.
If you play Weavile to his strengths and properly, he is certainly B-
I still disagree that Weavile is a good Talonflame check, as a) teams with talonflame have (or should have) good hazard support and b) talonflame needs to be extremely weakened for Weavile to actually KO with ice shard.
50-60% against Pinsir in exchange for one of your pokemon really doesn't seem worth it, and your probably better off with an actual check/counter that can deal with it consistently.
As it happens, Rotom-W is much better counter for both Talonflame and Pinsir-Mega.
50-60% against Pinsir in exchange for one of your pokemon really doesn't seem worth it, and your probably better off with an actual check/counter that can deal with it consistently.
As it happens, Rotom-W is much better counter for both Talonflame and Pinsir-Mega.
No, of course I don't recommend Weavile as a dedicated Talonflame check. And ideally you don't want to let Pinsir set up, but sometimes you have to fodder something to him if it managed too, but that's ALL you'll let him get, opposed to sweeping your team. It's just an example of what I mean as an all-purpose general revenge killer. You're making critiques regarding points I'm not advocating.
Reposting for utter importance. Also, if something as fucking terrible as Galvantula can still be B- just because of Sticky Web, then Shuckle should be placed somewhere. It's a much better web setter than Galv imo because it can use dual hazards and isn't setup fodder because it has access to Encore. It also basically can't die thanks to Sturdy, and there isn't any Mold Breaker user that can OHKO it.Alright, I'm gonna bring something up that's been bothering me.
Get this thing out of B-
Galvantula is a bit like Donphan in the sense that it's a pretty terrible Pokemon with traits that somehow seem attractive to new or bad players. Sticky Web is not enough to prevent Galvantula from sucking. It's not even easy to set up and maintain Sticky Web long enough. Galvantula is super frail, so it can't come in on anything directly, and it's much too weak to force out anything that isn't weak to Electric or Bug. Sticky Web isn't even worth setting up much of the time because the metagame is so bulky and infested with priority. Sticky Web didn't save Shuckle from being unranked, or Smeargle from making it above C-, so why should it save Galvantula?
Mega Pinsir is affected by the sticky web unless it is switching in mega evolved and the opposite can be said about Mega Charizard X. One nice thing about galvantula is that it is very difficult to pin down due to volt switch and a 108 speed. This allows Galvantula to easily volt switch out of many undesirable match-ups. And Galvantula has the uncanny ability to beat many defoggers 1 on 1 if defog is used on the opponents first turn after switching in.
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 398-471 (93.8 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 510-603 (152.6 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 191-226 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Zapdos: 208-246 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The offensive pressure that Galvantula provides scares out many of these common defoggers most used sets. If your opponent defogs with any of these defoggers while Galvantula is on the field, Galvantula can KO and setup hazards later. Only Latios, Mega scizor, and Latias are able to KO Galvantula if they go on the offensive instead of defogging, however if this happens, galvantula has kept sticky web on the field and you can then switch to the appropriate counter to the current defogger.
Just reiterating my post from earlier that was essentially ignored. Shuckle adds nothing to a team except for hazards and it has the slowest and most useless encore in the entire game. Shuckle is also really easy to defog against. Shuckle cannot function at all without Bisharp, Thunderous or Milotic which cannot be said about Galvantula as Galvantula does really well against most common defoggers.
Does it really deserve something as high as B- though? While you make fair points, Galvantula is definitely not on the same league as Alakazam and Staraptor. Sure Galvantula does well against defoggers, but Sticky Web isn't worth the effort of keeping up a majority of the time, as the opponent will either have priority, Bisharp, or just be slow enough to not give a shit.
Fair enough, so maybe we should discuss sticky web itself. It makes things like Mega Pinsir very manageable (if it switches in before mega evolving) and the few grounded scarfers like Chandelure become essentially useless. Terrakion and Keldeo both despise sticky web as well. You are correct in saying that teams with Bisharp and flying spam really don't care about sticky web, but it is still a really cool hazard to work with. I've only ever made one OU sticky web team, but it was fairly effective and when played correctly Galvantula was a valuable member of the squad. I wouldn't be too disappointed by Galvantula's drop (although I do still support a B- ranking), but if it does drop it shouldn't go any lower than C+ as I believe that sticky web can be very helpful to certain teams.
Alot of pokemon these days aren't affected by sticky web ( Rotom Wash, Charizard, Thunderus, Gengar, Latias, Latios, Landorus, Gyarados just to name a few ) or don't care about it ( Scizor, Heatran, Azumarill, Aegislash, Bisharp, Clefable, Hippowdown, Tyranitar, Chansey, Conkeldurr just to new a few ) so i don't see why sticky web is that great and sticky web is the only reason for Galvantula to be used in OU so Galvantula for D.
But there are still a lot that do. Even though a lot of the Pokemon that you named don't generally mind sticky web, there are certain matchups where they would prefer to be faster. If Heatran gets its speed dropped it becomes vulnerable to a lot of slow pokemon like Hippodown or Tyranitar carrying earthquake. Sticky web also makes Pokemon like Greninja, Weaville, and Alakazam much less effective at revenge killing.
Why is Sableye B- and Mega Banette D?
I can understand Mega Banette being lower, but really that much lower?
I can understand Mega Banette being lower, but really that much lower?
mega bannette doesn't get prankster turn 1 so unless it's running protect, it's probably going to get hit pretty hard
Taking a turn to set up Sticky Web and using Galvantula is taking a turn and slot away from setting up Stealth Rock instead, which is a much bigger game changer. I also find Sticky Web to be highly outclassed as a speed modifier by Tailwind. Tailwind is limited but it is guaranteed to affect your whole team and isn't dependent on the enemy's team. And there are TONS of good Tailwind users like Talonflame, Staraptor and Latias just to name a few, and they all have many more uses outside Tailwind. Tailwind is limited, but it's certainly easier to use than either Trick Room or Sticky Web, and your opponent can't end it prematurely. This can give you just enough time to cause severe devastation with someone like Landorus-I, Kyurem-B or even Darmanitan! Even Sticky Web is sooo niche that it is more often than not not worth the hassle and I would put both Galvantuala, and even the move itself firmly in C tier. Galvantula is not as good as pokes like Mega Aerodactyl, Celebi, Krookodile or Tangrowth.
Actually looking at the C tier again, Porygon 2 is not justified there, as it is certainly better qualified than Blissey C+, being far better at mixed tanking AND special attacking, with Trace being a phenomenal ability allowing it to stall out balance, and outstall stall! Depending on what you Trace. But in a meta where people are nominating Clefable for S giving Porygon 2 the ability to Trace Unaware or Magic Guard? Just say gg right there man. He can potentially tank as well, if not better, than Suicune and Gliscor who are B+. So I say Porygon 2 for B/B+. Status can be an issue unlike for Gliscor and Suicune, which is why B is probably more appropriate, but with abilities to trace like Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Natural Cure and Magic Bounce, this isn't necessarily too much of an issue. Not to mention a simple cleric with Wish is all the support a Pory2 really needs.
Actually looking at the C tier again, Porygon 2 is not justified there, as it is certainly better qualified than Blissey C+, being far better at mixed tanking AND special attacking, with Trace being a phenomenal ability allowing it to stall out balance, and outstall stall! Depending on what you Trace. But in a meta where people are nominating Clefable for S giving Porygon 2 the ability to Trace Unaware or Magic Guard? Just say gg right there man. He can potentially tank as well, if not better, than Suicune and Gliscor who are B+. So I say Porygon 2 for B/B+. Status can be an issue unlike for Gliscor and Suicune, which is why B is probably more appropriate, but with abilities to trace like Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Natural Cure and Magic Bounce, this isn't necessarily too much of an issue. Not to mention a simple cleric with Wish is all the support a Pory2 really needs.
Yes, but unlike Sableye, it actually has an offensive presence.
Sableye has STAB Foul Play. It also has an item slot and Recovery.
Yes, and Banette has destiny bond and disable. I think it should be somewhere in C personally. Mega Banette is a decent Pokemon.
have you tried getting mega banette into battle?
it's often not a pretty sight
it's often not a pretty sight
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