Why would we move gunk down? It counters chinchou one of the best and most common pokes in the current meta along with tirtouga and dwebble via taunt, a rank for gunk.
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Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
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Why would we move gunk down? It counters chinchou one of the best and most common pokes in the current meta along with tirtouga and dwebble via taunt, a rank for gunk.
Sorry you're argument is really flawed here. It's like saying Murkrow's LO set isn't noteworthy even though it 2HKOs the entire tier, because Cranidos can 2HKO the entire tier as well and that's not moving above B anytime soon. With Swords Dance, Drilbur is actually one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into if you can set it up. 17 Speed isn't bad at all and can outspeed and take out loads of slower. With an Eviolite it also survives hits from faster Pokemon such as Murkrow and Misdreavus. OHKOing Missy at +2 definitely makes a Rapid Spinner noteworthy.
Drilbur is actually very good, agreed with Corkscrew
Yeah, pretty much one of the main reasons.
>OHKOing missy wiht Knock Off
252+ Atk Huge Power Azurill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
LO makes it an OHKO (like i didnt see this coming but shit i needed to know)
Uhm how fast is Azurill? like 8-9 Spe? and Riolu is not getting to +2 when Missy Burns it.
OHKOing an S Rank mon is hooray but shit if you cant do anything to beat it before you can score that OHKO then that's why you're not up there. Riolu is better than Azurill for killing Missy in this regard. Then again if Defensive Missy you're screwed because it's gunna have WoW at the ready and you're gunna be 1/2 power tryna spam Crunch. Not a good look.
Agreed here !! Drilbur is the slayer of Sturdy + BJ mons who rely on that sash to stay intact and can outspeed all of them before they can Smash. Also to note that without Sand Rush it's still a powerhouse.
Yup! Here are the only Pokemon able to use Mold Breaker in LC: Axew, Cranidos, Drilbur, Pancham. Cranidos is too slow to sweep, so is Pancham! Axew I guess can set up a DD but doesn't have great coverage, it can't get EQ or Bulldoze in fact. That just leaves Drilbur...And with it's decent speed, it can definitely destroy things in the tier (not to mention Drilbur also outspeeds Axew)! And with Gligar out of the way, there are no reliable passers to pass speed, as Venipede doesn't get Baton Pass, and Torchic doesn't have the best defenses in the world....And if you're thinking about Aipom...not the best defenses either, and it's generally better to be run as an All-Out-Attacker anyway.
Jac, it holds a life orb.
I may be forgetting something here but I fail to see how Azurill adds to the discussion of Drilbur at all here. Drilbur may need to set up to OHKO missy, but it is also significantly bulkier than Azurill, is faster, carries useful support moves in Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock, and is able to check a variety of fairly potent threats. If this Azurill is indeed holding a Life Orb, its bulk would be questionable at best, leading to the question of how Azurill has managed to get in safely and why the Misdreavus user feels the need to switch Missy in.
As many people before me have mentioned, I think Honedge is fit to stay in C. It certainly has a niche in walling most variants of Meditite, but this niche isn't entirely unique, and a fair amount of support is required if Honedge is to contribute much more than that due to the ease with which it is walled and a weakness to some very common types. With that being said, Honedge's typing, although packing some brutal weaknesses, still grants a lot of resistances which can prove to be useful. It also actually beats eviolite Pawniard one on one if it is healthy, since Knock Off doesn't OHKO Eviolite Honedge but Sacred Sword OHKOs Pawniard, so I don't think Honedge should be moved any lower than that.
I would also like to continue advocating Shellos's placement in the viability thread. Now that one of its bigger niches in countering Gligar is gone, I think C would be a good placement for it. Knock Off is a very popular move, and Shellos is able to absorb it quite well due to its decent bulk with Eviolite. Unlike other Sticky Hold Pokemon such as Trubbish and Grimer, Shellos is able to maintain good bulk with Eviolite while simultaneously having access to reliable recovery. Since the vast majority of Pawniards are running Brick Break for opposing Pawniard or Stealth Rock for utility, Shellos is now able to switch into it much more comfortably. It is still able to take on Eviolite Mienfoo without a huge amount of trouble, being able to always avoid the 2HKO from Drain Punch from max attack Mienfoo after Stealth Rock (barring crits). Although with Murkrow everywhere, Shellos faces stiff competition from Chinchou as a bulky water, I feel as if Sticky Hold and access to Recover differentiate Shellos enough to warrant C.
As many people before me have mentioned, I think Honedge is fit to stay in C. It certainly has a niche in walling most variants of Meditite, but this niche isn't entirely unique, and a fair amount of support is required if Honedge is to contribute much more than that due to the ease with which it is walled and a weakness to some very common types. With that being said, Honedge's typing, although packing some brutal weaknesses, still grants a lot of resistances which can prove to be useful. It also actually beats eviolite Pawniard one on one if it is healthy, since Knock Off doesn't OHKO Eviolite Honedge but Sacred Sword OHKOs Pawniard, so I don't think Honedge should be moved any lower than that.
I would also like to continue advocating Shellos's placement in the viability thread. Now that one of its bigger niches in countering Gligar is gone, I think C would be a good placement for it. Knock Off is a very popular move, and Shellos is able to absorb it quite well due to its decent bulk with Eviolite. Unlike other Sticky Hold Pokemon such as Trubbish and Grimer, Shellos is able to maintain good bulk with Eviolite while simultaneously having access to reliable recovery. Since the vast majority of Pawniards are running Brick Break for opposing Pawniard or Stealth Rock for utility, Shellos is now able to switch into it much more comfortably. It is still able to take on Eviolite Mienfoo without a huge amount of trouble, being able to always avoid the 2HKO from Drain Punch from max attack Mienfoo after Stealth Rock (barring crits). Although with Murkrow everywhere, Shellos faces stiff competition from Chinchou as a bulky water, I feel as if Sticky Hold and access to Recover differentiate Shellos enough to warrant C.
Pretty much. It abuses prankster with substitute, leech seed, and status to be really annoying. It's also got the new fairy type which makes it stand out more so than last gen
You also have to consider that with the way the power scale works (or whatever you call it) the low amount of attack that Cottonee has is still enough to allow it to attack well and viably hurt threats. But yeah, it's an annoying one like it's evo.
i havent looked at this thread in like 2 pages... i should feel bad....but whatever lol
i still want to argue croagunk to b
i dont actually feel like croagunk fits these requirements. croagunk has a major flaw because it does what it does and nothing else. it cant wall and support the majority of the tier, it can wall and support maybe 40% of the tier (51% is considered majority by all accounts). it fills its niche well, but after that it is not a threatening pokemon. i dont even think it has outstanding traits, because outside of switching into fighting types it does absolutely nothing. unlike gen 5 there arent 5 fighting types a team and there is just more viabilty of pokemon who beat it
no, most pokemon which are good are not a liability dependent on team matchup. literally every s-rank mon doesnt become a liability based on team matchup, carvanha never becomes a liability, fletchling never becomes a liability, ponyta never becomes a liability, basically every a-rank mon doesnt become a liability (besides spritzee lol). they can all do something outside of beating a certain set of threats. croagunk is just too weak and focused on beating a few things that prevent it from being a good standalone mon. it literally functions as a "beat what my other mons cant beat" mons in a reactive sense, not an active sense.
i feeel like i didnt explain myself well at all but honestly i dont see why croagunk is considered A tier for being able to beat some mons 70% of the time and then do nothign else the rest of the game.
also on a side note who agrees spritzee for b. its so easily taken advantage of and needs and doesnt actually wall a majority of the tier. especially when its eviolite flies off by 3rd turn every game.
i still want to argue croagunk to b
i dont actually feel like croagunk fits these requirements. croagunk has a major flaw because it does what it does and nothing else. it cant wall and support the majority of the tier, it can wall and support maybe 40% of the tier (51% is considered majority by all accounts). it fills its niche well, but after that it is not a threatening pokemon. i dont even think it has outstanding traits, because outside of switching into fighting types it does absolutely nothing. unlike gen 5 there arent 5 fighting types a team and there is just more viabilty of pokemon who beat it
no, most pokemon which are good are not a liability dependent on team matchup. literally every s-rank mon doesnt become a liability based on team matchup, carvanha never becomes a liability, fletchling never becomes a liability, ponyta never becomes a liability, basically every a-rank mon doesnt become a liability (besides spritzee lol). they can all do something outside of beating a certain set of threats. croagunk is just too weak and focused on beating a few things that prevent it from being a good standalone mon. it literally functions as a "beat what my other mons cant beat" mons in a reactive sense, not an active sense.
i feeel like i didnt explain myself well at all but honestly i dont see why croagunk is considered A tier for being able to beat some mons 70% of the time and then do nothign else the rest of the game.
also on a side note who agrees spritzee for b. its so easily taken advantage of and needs and doesnt actually wall a majority of the tier. especially when its eviolite flies off by 3rd turn every game.
This is sort of random but
Lickitung for C.
B seems a little high for a pokemon that seemingly has no niche. As a bulky normal, there is Porygon and Munchlax, and as a cleric there is Spritzee. The only things it really has are Dragon Tail and Knock Off, but I don't think either of them are enough to warrant B. I've used it couple times and its usually just fodder since it needs Protect to use Wish effectively because its super slow.
Lickitung for C.
B seems a little high for a pokemon that seemingly has no niche. As a bulky normal, there is Porygon and Munchlax, and as a cleric there is Spritzee. The only things it really has are Dragon Tail and Knock Off, but I don't think either of them are enough to warrant B. I've used it couple times and its usually just fodder since it needs Protect to use Wish effectively because its super slow.
I'm pretty sure Lickitung does have a real niche. It's a bulky normal type cleric. It counters completely different things to Spritzee, so although they have the same cleric/wish role, one cannot be said to outclass the other. And if you do compare them, 90/75/75 stats are better than 78/60/65. Lickitung deserves B because it plays a massive support role, makes Pokemon such as Snubbull, Cottonee and Koffing much more viable thanks to Wish Support and it's almost impossible to take down without a Fighting-type Pokemon. (Seriously run a team with no fighting-types and see how tough Lickitung is to take down)
Lickitung is absolutely B Rank. It can perform a supporting role very well and has amazing bulk, even after a Knock Off (typically 28/17/16, or 28/16/16 if using EVs in Attack or SpA/Speed). Like Spritzee, it can also perform a more offensive role by using Curse or Swords Dance. It has Oblivious so it can't be Taunted (It can be Encored, though). It has Dragon Tail and Knock Off to punish set-up/defensive pokes, and a decent offensive movepool to cover any particular switch-in (assuming you are in fact running an offensive set). Its typing is a double-edged sword, only being able to wall Ghosts and take super-effective from Fighting moves. It can't resist much, but good luck leaving dents in it if you don't have any Fighting attacks left.
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Buneary needs a rank on this. It has a niche in switcheroo + klutz, which allows cool stuff like giving a wall an assault vest, effectively permanently taunting it. Its attack is also not bad at base 65, and it has a lot of cool support options, along with a very high base 85 speed. Yeah, it's pretty frail and it can't damage bulky mons, but I think its niche is big enough for at least D rank, if not C.
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Agree about Buneary being at least C or D rank. It's not even *that* frail specially. I sometimes run a baton pass set on it. It does that niche pretty well as there are not that many (or any other?) baton passers with cosmic power, agility, power-up punch + probably more things it can do.
Well it kind of depends how you play Spritzee. I have switched Mienfoo into the Knock Offs and preserved Eviolite on Spritzee to check loads of threats. Then again, if you are using it as a dedicated fighting counter, then it will get knocked off and that's all it will be able to do, but it does it really well and takes stress off the rest of your team.
To me Spritzee looks like one of the most reliable Pokemon in the tier.
The problem with constant switching with Spritzee is the Dwebble hazards metagame. You are forced to spin or defog as Spritzee is trash with hazards on the field. All the 3HKOs on it that it can switch into become 2HKOs. It's honestly a complete liability. I just don't think Spritzee is that great in this meta and ANY competent player will get it knocked off early in the game as prem said.
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Numel for c rank if you give this guy a vulpix its a boss simple growth in the sun give you +4 attack AND special attack and flame charge gives you +2 speed with simple, making it a very good pokemon with enough support therefore defining the c rank requirments. What do you guys think?
I think that it isn't bulky enough as it has 60/45/45 defenses and with Carvahna, Chinchou, and Tirtouga running around, it will not survive, and there is many other things out there that prevent it from setting up. *cough* TauntFoo *cough* If it does get set up though, it can obviously kills like everything if it has Flamethrower and Earth Power.
(It hits 23/13/14 in all defensive EV's, no attack.) These defenses most likely cannot take 2 turns of setting up, though its Special Attack hits 39 after one growth. I guess it's high risk, high reward kind of gimmick. I think it should be in C or D tier because of it's gimmick, though.
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The amount of set up required for Numel to be effective is usually too high for it to be C rank. Having two fire types is generally a liability, for what BC said above, water types are inconveniently common, as is Stealth Rock.
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