Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Pipotchi]

Starmie doesnt seem that useless to me.. regenerator is always good, and its utility stems from other places with the buff.
I see starmie being a pretty good dual screens user for hyper-offensive teams with this buff. Already outspeeding most unboosted mons, it can set up screens whilst tanking the half-damage hit, and switch out whilst recovering off the damage without having to lose a precious turn of screens. Unlike most dual screens users, starmie is not affected by the lack of leftovers and can fully afford to run light clay. Also despite mediocre mixed defenses, with the appropriate screen, 252 Hp investment, and the ability to regenerate 33% of the damage dealt, they become much more manageable.

Starmie can also spin at the same time, giving it another bonus over other screens users for teams. Scald goes in the last moveslot to make the most out of an attacking move with minimal investment, and the extra 4 evs in sdef to make porygon get an attack boost (not very relevant but should be done if you have equal defenses apparently)

Starmie @ Light Clay
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Rapid Spin
- Scald


Aromatisse would definitely provide something new to the metagame as the only physically defensive fairy with OU viability, with Granbull coming in a distant second. I'm not too interested with this one because there isnt much difference to the pokemon and it will retain the exact same wish cleric moveset, just be much harder to crack on the physical side. Its also probably WAY too strong considering its insane def and 30% chance to lower special attack with moonblast- and its special bulk is already fantastic. It could run a calm mind set and probably run it extremely well due to its defenses being so unnaturally high, but the real op set is probably the standard one.

Accelgor would probably be the most interesting discussion and would probably be the mon who I would most like to discuss... for starters, Accelgor always feels like something teetering on the edge of usability with a decent 100 SpA and great speed tier. As mentioned before, the final gambit + sticky web set sounds great for blowing a chunk in a defogger whilst denying them the ability to defog for a turn, perhaps even forcing them out and making it impossible for them to return- in THEORY it sounds great. It can also use infestation on the switch in order to grab the defogger and prevent them from tricking you into blowing final gambit on something else. If not going for a final gambit set, accelgor has baton pass, which can be used with substitutes and boosting berries perhaps? It doesnt get much good to pass apart from agility, but there are better candidates for that.
Also it can avoid being tricked choice items due to sticky hold and set up upon, meaning it is immune to gothitelle's sneaky shenanigans and can kill it with bug buzz or cripple it with knock off. A very solid pokemon overall imo.

This is the set I would likely use on Accelgor:

Accelgor @ Binding Band
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- Infestation
- Protect
- Final Gambit

With a binding band and infestation, accelgor can trap mandibuzz on the switch and ohko it with final gambit. Mandibuzz with max hp and full investment has 424 hp. Binding band infestation deals 71 damage to mandibuzz (+ at minimum 16 addition damage if mandibuzz is specially defensive from the attack itself), while leftovers gives 27 hp back. That leaves it with 364 hp, which is the exact amount of damage that Accelgor deals with a max hp + fully invested hp stat Final Gambit. Science!
Also with infestation and protect, you can wear down anything else that you want to kill with final gambit if their team does not have a defogger or rapid spinner. sticky hold means that gothitelle with a choice item cannot switch into you and hope to trick you an item.

Mandibuzz is probably the highest hp (correct me if I'm wrong) hazard remover in the OU meta, so this means you can beat all the other ones too. excadrill gets cleanly ohkod with final gambit providing it has no hp investment (although it can creep you with 16 hp evs) and stuff like skarmory obviously stands no chance.

 

[NeonNinja96]

I've always liked accelgor, so sticky web is a nice change for me. I would problably run it the same way as I do my Mamoswines. Focus Sash guarantees the sticky web, then go on the offense until he's taken out.

 

[Mood4food77]

furfrou has 75/60 physical bulk and it is bulkier than tangrowth

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Furfrou: 159-188 (44.9 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 201-237 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

aromatisse has 101/72 physical bulk and it is bulkier than avalugg

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Aromatisse: 144-169 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- 81.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

there is a reason gamefreak doesn't give huge/pure power to things that already have a decent attack stat. giving fur coat to something with reliable recovery and already has decent physical bulk is just stupid and broken. I hope you like using excadrill.

Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile would beg to differ

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile would beg to differ

They're balanced because they don't have an item

252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 1002-1178 (260.9 - 306.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 951-1123 (247.6 - 292.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[some hero]

I've always liked accelgor, so sticky web is a nice change for me. I would problably run it the same way as I do my Mamoswines. Focus Sash guarantees the sticky web, then go on the offense until he's taken out.

It doesn't guarantee Sticky Web thanks to priority Taunt and it's inability to threaten them with anything other than Final Gambit. Also Sticky Web is a really crappy move and the worst hazard and isn't worth a suicide killer. It really isn't. Saying all that, i fully expect it to see a lot of usage because most don't understand how useless Sticky Web is.

 

[Pipotchi]

Can you please explain why sticky web is so atrociously useless?

 

[some hero]

Can you please explain why sticky web is so atrociously useless?

It's completely useless against stall, baton pass and it only affects 2~4 of pokemon in a good hyper offense team and even then it's pushing it. You're wasting a pokemon on something that's only going to affect like 2 pokemon in your opponents team(as even in HO there are pokemon that aren't bothered by it like Aegislash) and even then it can easily be played around. Sticky Web is the easiest hazard to get rid of as it doesn't hurt to switch around to find an opening to send in your defogger. And lastly, Sticky Web literally does nothing once it's on the field as it relies on your pokemon to do the damage, which isn't guaranteed. I'd rather put up one layer of spikes.

 

[Valmanway]

It's completely useless against stall, baton pass and it only affects 2~4 of pokemon in a good hyper offense team and even then it's pushing it. You're wasting a pokemon on something that's only going to affect like 2 pokemon in your opponents team(as even in HO there are pokemon that aren't bothered by it like Aegislash) and even then it can easily be played around. Sticky Web is the easiest hazard to get rid of as it doesn't hurt to switch around to find an opening to send in your defogger. And lastly, Sticky Web literally does nothing once it's on the field as it relies on your pokemon to do the damage, which isn't guaranteed. I'd rather put up one layer of spikes.

I think you're selling Sticky Web a little short. It works wonders against Choice Scarf sets, as well as some big names such as Deoxys-S, Greninja, Garchomp, Keldeo, Kyurem-B, DD Mega Tyranitar, Excadrill, Manaphy, Terrakion, Mega Manectric, Raikou, Alakazam, Entei, Roserade, Sharpedo, Starmie, and Volcarona, just to name notable Pokemon from S-B rank. It may not be that supportive for hyper offense, which usually has high speed on their teams, but bulky offense greatly enjoys the speed advantage, since they can set up and sweep against a slowed down, frail team. The move itself isn't bad, but the users of it are what really hold it back. Galvantula is the best user of Sticky Web, and was in OU for a time, but people easily played around it due to its lack of power, even with Thunder, as well as its lack of bulk, forcing it to run Focus Sash. Now I'm not saying Accelgor would be much better, but I'm saying if we found a better user of Sticky Web, it would find a lot of usage. If there were a bulky user with recovery, then its use would skyrocket, but that sadly doesn't exist, which really diminishes it viability. It's like if Stealth Rock were only usable on Aerodactyl; the move itself is great, but the user doesn't use it well.

 

[Red Cat]

Accelgor really isn't that much better than Galvantula. It is faster and has Final Gambit, but that isn't enough to make it good. A good Sticky Web user needs to be bulky in order to lay it down several times if your opponent has Defog. That is why Shuckle is the highest ranked Sticky Web user.

 

[Seiterman]

Thoughts? Thoughts.

Sticky Web Accelgor seems like a decent improvement over Galvantula for better speed, better SpA (though Thunder's base power helps Galvantula a lot in the long run,) and access to Final Gambit and Spikes. Most teams will probably prefer Shuckle for his bulk and ability to come in several times to lay down Sticky Web, but one definitely can't dismiss a guaranteed 364 damage attack, even if it's at the cost of Accelgor itself. There may be some benefit to running U-Turn as well, as it helps Accelgor scout, and few things can actually outspeed him without a Choice Scarf (though Accelgor's U-Turn is pretty weak.)

Regenerator Starmie is iffy. Healing off any damage taken from hazards when you switch out is pretty nifty, to be sure, but you need to give up Natural Cure and Analytic to do so. Without Analytic, Starmie can't smash things on predicted switches, while Natural Cure has definite merit in letting Starmie absorb status and not be crippled by paralysis. It still lacks bulk, so there will be a lot of times where you can't utilize Regenerator well, too. It might not be the best-sounding Theorymon, but it does potentially breathe new life into a Pokemon who, after five generations, finally fell out of OU.

Extremespeed Braviary adds another tool to one of the most dominant team types in the current metagame. While it's certainly good in that Braviary would likely be viable with it, I'm not too keen on giving Talonflame another bird-buddy.

Fur Coat Aromatisse is a defensive behemoth. It would certainly have a niche as the physically bulkiest Fairy, and that special bulk isn't too shabby, either. This is definitely the one that most interests me, and it's not hard to see why.

 

[acestriker19]

Hmm wow intially I thought this was a fantastic slate with some really cool buffs but thinking more about most of these theorymons I started disliking them because these theorymons (especially Aromatisse and Braviary) buff already dominant metagame playstyles. While this really shouldn't be a contributing factor as the goal is to make more mons OU viable I just can't be impartial to this.

Extremespeed Braviary Another defiant user and encourages playstyles that would be a mixture of HO and Bird Spam. This buff would be very interesting and I think RK Braviary sounds really nice but I don't see further buffs to HO and bird spam playstyles to be a good for the meta as a whole.

Regenerator Starmie I'm sorry I just can't see what merit Defensive Starmie would have in this meta. Fast Dual Screens is already small niche is dominanted by the Deoxyses and Espeon already. Starmie isn't bulky and is outclassed in bulky roles so Regenerator wouldn't really help it.

Fur Coat Aromatisse A physically Defensive Fairy type is interesting but I actually feel this buffs Stall an already dominant playstyle high on the ladder as Aromatisse can provide support and deals with lots of counters to Stall such as Kyurem-B. I feel that Fur Coat Aromatisse would encourage more offensive steel types like Scizor and Bisharp (And Mold Breaker Gyarados) and destroy the viability of a large variety of set up sweepers such as Dragonite. Aromatisse doesn't have the offensive presence to fit that well on Balanced teams either IMO.

Sticky Web Accelgor I understand Sticky Web isn't actually that great of a move but Accelgor is actually a really solid harasser in the current meta. I've used sets such as this before (just with spikes instead of Sticky Web). Accelgor is actually really nice at regaining momentum for a team with Yawn and Encore pseudo-phasing combined with U-Turn and Sticky Webb when nessacary. Accelgor worked surprisingly well so I can see sticky web being a solid buff.

Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Yawn
- Encore
- U-turn
- Sticky Web

 

[skies]

I don't have too much too input but my vote goes to Fur Coat Aromatisse this round because a.) Aromatisse is a cute badass and b.) it's very amazing in OU now. Wll input more thoughts on Fur Coat Aromatisse in a bit.

EDIT#1; Also, Sticky Web is on a tier lower than SR, it just had shit users, Accelgor is cool though.
Like:
SR > Sticky Web > Spikes > Toxic Spikes.

 

[Seiterman]

Hmm wow intially I thought this was a fantastic slate with some really cool buffs but thinking more about most of these theorymons I started disliking them because these theorymons (especially Aromatisse and Braviary) buff already dominant metagame playstyles. While this really shouldn't be a contributing factor as the goal is to make more mons OU viable I just can't be impartial to this.


Fur Coat Aromatisse A physically Defensive Fairy type is interesting but I actually feel this buffs Stall an already dominant playstyle high on the ladder as Aromatisse can provide support and deals with lots of counters to Stall such as Kyurem-B. I feel that Fur Coat Aromatisse would encourage more offensive steel types like Scizor and Bisharp (And Mold Breaker Gyarados) and destroy the viability of a large variety of set up sweepers such as Dragonite. Aromatisse doesn't have the offensive presence to fit that well on Balanced teams either IMO.

I don't know if the usage stats really back up the idea of Stall being a dominant playstyle, at least from looking at last month's 1760 stats. Stall was at 6.28%, whereas HO sits at 12.16%, while Balanced was around 30% and Offense was around 44%. If you mean from a gameplay standpoint and not a usage standpoint, Stall can be tricky but, to my knowledge, isn't anywhere near dominant.

Fur Coat would absolutely shake up the metagame, in a lot of ways you've already said, but I don't think Stall is powerful/dominant enough to make implementing Aromatisse a huge issue. Plus, isn't a Fairy that actually stops the physical Dragons what a lot of us wanted before Gen 6 started anyway? =P

If Fur Coat Aromatisse were implemented on the ladder the metagame would look way different for a month. I'd be incredibly interested to see those results.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

I don't know if the usage stats really back up the idea of Stall being a dominant playstyle, at least from looking at last month's 1760 stats. Stall was at 6.28%, whereas HO sits at 12.16%, while Balanced was around 30% and Offense was around 44%.

Keep in mind that stall generally has longer games, which means less games in the same timeframe compared to other playstyles. Which might skew the statistics a little.

 

[HolyAvatar]

Very late on the Gourgeist thing:

Hide

Your calcs in this discussion has no sense.
Even now gourgeist can tank. Prankster didn't help tanking hits.
Even if he is bulky, why has a low usage?
Example:
If u switch gourgeist against megados for get a waterfall, and u go with wow, the opponent switch gyara because he know he run wow. So u hit with wow the next pokemon . With prankster u can burn megados? NO. I don't see the difference. Only if your opponent didn't know what gourgeist do he stay in. Prankster isn't arena trap.
Priority sub: u sub, the opponent break your sub. The sub wasn't used on the switch out of the opponent's mon? But for this u didn't need prankster.
Priority leech seed: u hit first. But the opponent lost health after both mons hits. This has no sense.
Destiny Bond is the only reason for wasting a slot for gourgeist.

OK, pursuit on druddigon is bad.
Give me a reason for use druddi in OU.

I'll answer point per point:
-Megados should outspeed with 1 DD and could have a chance to KO before WOW, now he has to switch or be burned before KOing. All thanks to prankster.
-Priority sub removes a lot of mind games. There are 2 options for the opposing player: switch or stay. If he switches you didn't get anything but now it is much safer to just use sub because you're only betting 25% of your mon's health even if he stays. Priority sub is also the equivalent of satus immunity if you're good at predicting.
-Priority leech seed is a good last ditch effort to stop a sweep (even though destiny bond is much better): it means your check could become a counter by avoiding the 2hko or you can just have something with protect to finish him off. Last but not least, you now don't have to worry about sub users.
Things is you also have to consider the subseed strategy as a whole: if you sub or seed on the switch it's almost guaranteed at least 72% of the opposing mon's hp in damage (unless grass/magic bounce/magic guard, taunt only reduces the amount of damage you can rack up).

Basically no matter how low it gets, unless the enemy has faster priority, it never becomes dead weight.

Will edit to comment on current theorymons.

 

[Seiterman]

Keep in mind that stall generally has longer games, which means less games in the same timeframe compared to other playstyles. Which might skew the statistics a little.

Is that how the statistics work? I'd think they'd not count the same team over and over again if one guy plays a bunch of games.

 

[Red Cat]

For those of you who think Aromatisse is broken, please read alexwolf's post where he lists 16 counters to Aromatisse.

there is a reason gamefreak doesn't give huge/pure power to things that already have a decent attack stat. giving fur coat to something with reliable recovery and already has decent physical bulk is just stupid and broken. I hope you like using excadrill.

Game Freak gives the best offensive abilities to Pokemon which can actually make use of it. Azumarill and Mega Mawile are top tier OU and Mega Medicham and Diggersby are pretty good too. The only Pokemon Game Freak gave Fur Coat to was Furfrou which is absolute garbage even with the ability. Other great defensive abilities like Prankster and Regenerator have terrible distribution. Game Freak loves offense so much that the best Prankster user is Thundurus which is an offensive user. I'm guessing that part of the reason defensive buffs are favored by alexwolf over offensive ones is that OU is currently skewed toward offense. Aromatisse isn't going to wall everything in existence, it just gives stall teams another option to wall some of the many offensive threats out there to deal with.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Sticky Web Accelgor is really interesting to me because of its access to Final Gambit. With its insane Speed, it can go before any Spinner/Defog user and Final Gambit to KO itself before the opponent gets a chance to remove. Of course, this is something Accelgor could do with Spikes too, but Stick Web makes it much more powerful and relevant.


also... since I was super busy when it was discussed:

some late comments on Gale Wings Salamence

So just as this theorymon was going on I had a huge flurry of LIFE moving out of China and taking care of family obligations in Japan. Kind of sucks, because I was really looking forward to discussing it, and until today I didn't even know it won its vote on the Slate.


[Offensively]
Regarding Aerial Ace, I think one comparison people failed to make (I went back and read the discussion) was to Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom's Mach Punch. Both of these attacks have a lot of competitive relevance and set the standard of "powerful priority" until XY. With Technician boosts, Mach Punch/Bullet Punch have 60 base power-- the exact same as Salamence's Aerial Ace.

Salamence also has 5 more base Attack, so Salamence's Aerial Ace is slightly more powerful than Scizor's Bullet Punch or Breloom's Mach Punch-- but Flying is a much better attacking type.

Salamence's priority attack is more than powerful enough to be competitively relevant, and is significantly stronger than Pinsir's Quick Attack (when you factor in LO or CB, it's WAY more powerful). It isn't Talonflame's Brave Bird, but then Talonflame doesn't have STAB Outrage/Draco Meteor off massive offensive stats and flawless coverage attacks, nor does it have good bulk and resistances along with a mere 2x weakness to SR.

The only thing that Salamence lacks as a priority user is access to Swords Dance, but even Scizor and Breloom use many sets without Swords Dance, and if you've used either you know that there are plenty of times where their priority is invaluable even when not at +2. That 90 base power FLYING type STAB attack has a lot more relevance than just trying to sweep after a boost.


BTW, Dragon Dance is not as bad an idea as you would think it would be:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 195-229 (57.1 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 216-255 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 LO Salamence's Aerial Ace is noticeably stronger than Mega Pinsir's +2 Quick Attack. (though only by a tiny margin if Pinsir is Adamant)

You may not have that +2 Aerialite Return of ridiculousness-- but you still have +1 Outrage / EQ and +1 Speed to get you over a whole lot of other shit Pinsir wishes it could get over-- while still having a better Priority attack (being more powerful after the boost, and WAY more powerful unboosted). And you're not using the Mega Slot, so Mence + Pinsir or Mence + Talonflame, or TRIPLE BIRD FTW??

CB Mence will also be great. CB Dragonite is a beast not because of Multiscale, but because people are so under prepared for Outrage and because Extreme Speed hits like a tank. Here's a CB Dragnite that's stronger, faster, and has a priority attack that has 10 more base power and is a Flying move-- maybe the priority's lower, but the destructive power is MUCH greater!

People are seriously underestimating Aerial Ace's 60 base power and Mence's 135 base attack, plus the freedom to use any item. Factor in all Salamence's OTHER fire power, and it's clear that Gale Wings Mence is a pretty impressive offensive beast.



[Defensively]
Then, there's all the DEFENSIVE set potential. People are really underestimating Salamence's 95 / 80 / 80 defenses because they've never seen what happens when Salamence invests in bulk. Salamence is comparably bulky to Zapdos, except here Salamence always outspeeds its opponents with Roost, always outspeeds its opponents with Defog, and always outspeeds its opponents with Tailwind or even Fly if it chooses to use it. So unlike Mandibuzz or Zapdos looking to tank 2 attacks before defogging, Salamence will almost never have to tank more than 1 before getting up its utility moves. You can invest in no speed at all but still outspeed almost everything with your best moves.

This actually makes Salamence a LOT more efficient as a support mon than Latias, because where Latias has to worry about Speed and think about using Timid or investing in Speed EVs, Mence can dump EVERYTHING in defense and still outspeed just about EVERYTHING with Defog.

252 HP / 252 DEF Impish Salamence is overall bulkier AND faster than 252 HP / 252 SPEED Timid Latias, and Salamence can invest in SpDef if it wants to emulate Latias' bulk there.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 124-147 (34 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Salamence: 135-160 (34.2 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(and you still got 52 more EVs to throw in DEF)

It wins in overall bulk/speed against Zapdos as well (on virtue of difference of Roost / Defog Speed).

Also, Salamence's resistances/typing are bad? Since when? It has resistance to Water, Grass, Fire, Fighting, Bug, and an immunity to Ground. With its blitz Priority Roost its hard to nail its weaknesses too! Plus not being weak to Pursuit? I'd admit Zapdos has a better defensive typing but Latias definitely doesn't-- and Salamence's is definitely usable.

Add in the fact that Salamence has a lot of other utility moves in Heal Bell, Wish, and Roar, and you're looking at some impressive support potential.




[Conclusion]
*So while Salamence is out Speed/Bulking Zapdos and Latias and giving Mandibuzz a good run for its money in terms of support usefulness (with a way better support movepool... along with powerful priority, Draco Meteor, and Outrage all still being dangerous)...
*It's also packing the ability to outclass CB Scizor, Breloom and Azumarril in terms of destructive priority (Flying is a better attack type),
*And wall breaks better than any of them with Outrage (and potentially going mixed).
*Not to mention all the unexplored bullshit that could arise from Hidden Power Flying-- now the strongest Special Priority attack in the game.
*Plus there's the DD set to think about, which at +1 hits harder with priority than a +2 Mega Pinsir (and still SMASHES stuff with that speed boost and +1 Outrage / EQ)
*MUST ABUSE THE TRIPLE BIRD!!!
*And in all of this you STILL don't know if it's potentially Moxie CS or some other shit until it starts to abuse Gale Wings.

If you guys can't see the potential of this bough, than you haven't been playing the game enough. This isn't a "let's break Salamence to be ridiculous shit" like it would be if you gave him Aerialite; but as a defensive/support boost with big potential that ALSO adds more offensive ability, Gale Wings Salamence has a LOT of interesting potential.

^If people want to discuss these points or anything else on Gale Wing Mence, PM me and we can start a private discussion.

 

[Turn Up]

Sticky Web Accelgor sounds great! It's actually pretty crazy to be honest, taunt and sticky web on a pokemon that doesn't have bad stats all around (Kricketune) I probably would of gone for ESpeed Braviary if this wasn't a replacement for a pokemon I used to use, being Kricketune, he was fun, but not that great

 

[amzaneok]

I'd rather put up one layer of spikes.

Then do so. Just because Sticky Web is rather match up based doesn't make it a bad move to have handy. The opponent is running bird spam and doesn't give a damn? Save Accelgor and Final Gambit something in a pinch. Sure, it's not as reliable as Destiny Bond, but it often accomplishes the same thing with that Speed stat and full HP investment. Final Gambit is really annoying (although stall teams aren't as bothered by it as most of their team has high HP stats and often recovery... but stall HATES Encore).

Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sticky Web
- Spikes
- Encore
- Final Gambit

248 HP is used to keep Accelgor's HP not divisible by 4, but since Accelgor will often lead it doesn't really matter as Accelgor likely won't be switching in often. Sticky Web when it's a team that's bothered by it. Spikes when it's not. Encore the opposing lead's Stealth Rock or boost and set up more Spikes, or save it for later to harass stall. Final Gambit blocks both Rapid Spin and Defog, and can be used like Destiny Bond if Accelgor needs to do so (but be mindful of entry hazards lowing its damage dramatically). I think Accelgor actually has enough HP to OHKO uninvested base 100 HP foes with full health, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's probably a good idea to use Accelgor with something that can handle Bisharp's +2 Sucker Punch.

 

[Red Cat]

If Accelgor wins with Extreme Speed Braviary and Fur Coat Aromatisse on the ballot, I will lose my faith in humanity (Ok, maybe a bit of exaggeration there). Many Pokemon in OU are not affected by Sticky Web or just don't care about it. Accelgor's only way of doing real damage is by committing suicide. Sticky Web isn't going to suddenly become usable just because Accelgor might be a very slight upgrade over Galvantula and Shuckle. Even those two have some advantages over Accelgor. The only Pokemon which could possibly save Sticky Web which is eligible for this project is Forretress, but even that would be iffy.

 

[alexwolf]

Ther are a few misconceptions that i would like to clear up:

Galvantula is not a good Sticky Web user, or a good Pokemon in general. This means that Accelgor faces little to zero competition from Galvantula, because Galvantual is not even really viable to begin with in contrast with Accelgor. If you want to compare Sticky Web Accelgor with another Sticky Web user at least use more viable examples, such as Shuckle and Smeargle.

Moving on, Braviary wouldn't help only offensive teams, specifically bird spam teams, it would help balanced teams as well. What kind of team other than stall wouldn't love strong as fuck priority and the ability to punish the use of Defog? Is Talonflame only used on offensive teams? No. Braviary is even bulkier, less weak to SR, and has Defog, all of which make it even more viable than Talonflame on balanced teams.

Finally, Fur Coat Aromatisse is not the unbreakable wall that some people here claim her to be. There are plenty of physical attackers able to get past it, such as Mold Breaker Excadrill, SD Mega Mawile, SD Bisharp, SD Mega Scizor, DD Mega Gyarados, SD Aegislash, and Kyurem-B. The same goes for special attackers, with Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, CM Unaware Clefable, Flash Cannon Aegislash, Gengar, Sludge Wave Landorus, and Tail Glow Manaphy. And those are just some of the Pokemon that can deal with Aromatisee via offensive pressure. You can also beat it with stall tactics, such as Toxic Chansey (Toxic has more PPs than Aromatherapy) or Taunt + WoW / Toxic Heatran.

That is all.

 

[Salemance]

Now that my life wound down a bit, time to post :D

my thoughts are similar on Braviary as it has multiple things that set it alongside other birds and away. On bird spam teams it would have to fight against STaraptor mainly as they carry ridiculously similar coverage (Fighting move, Normal typing attacks, Strong Brave Bird) and Staraptor would as it wouldn't need to rely on priority as often, stupid power in Reckless, and its fighting move allows it to keep attacking instead of making it weaker with each use. In a way, Braviary would need to look elsewhere to find its goals, and balanced seems best as its not too fast, fairly bulky, and has nice coverage to abuse with its defiant antics. The one I think I would like would be this:

Braviary
Sheer Force
Life Orb
Brave Nature
252 Atk / 100 Sp Atk / 156 Spd
-Brave Bird
-Extremespeed
-Heat Wave
-Super Power

This, while not defiant, gives it great utility over the other birds as with this set, it can 3HKO Aegislash while not making contact and still hitting with stupid strong damage. He sacrifices the ability to be a defiant check, but basically makes him a little scarier as he really couldn't be accounted for. While this set already really exists for normal Braviary, the threat of a STAB 80 priority move can not be under estimated. I would like to see it in practice, but it may not be its best bet.

 

[Pipotchi]

Now that my life wound down a bit, time to post :D

my thoughts are similar on Braviary as it has multiple things that set it alongside other birds and away. On bird spam teams it would have to fight against STaraptor mainly as they carry ridiculously similar coverage (Fighting move, Normal typing attacks, Strong Brave Bird) and Staraptor would as it wouldn't need to rely on priority as often, stupid power in Reckless, and its fighting move allows it to keep attacking instead of making it weaker with each use. In a way, Braviary would need to look elsewhere to find its goals, and balanced seems best as its not too fast, fairly bulky, and has nice coverage to abuse with its defiant antics. The one I think I would like would be this:

Braviary
Sheer Force
Life Orb
Brave Nature
252 Atk / 100 Sp Atk / 156 Spd
-Brave Bird
-Extremespeed
-Heat Wave
-Super Power

This, while not defiant, gives it great utility over the other birds as with this set, it can 3HKO Aegislash while not making contact and still hitting with stupid strong damage. He sacrifices the ability to be a defiant check, but basically makes him a little scarier as he really couldn't be accounted for. While this set already really exists for normal Braviary, the threat of a STAB 80 priority move can not be under estimated. I would like to see it in practice, but it may not be its best bet.

Why not just use shadow claw to kill aegislash? On the cb version its an easy 2hko, and braviary doesnt get its attack dropped by kings shield because defiant. That way you dont have to waste bulk and speed investing heavily in special attack too

 

[Salemance]

Why not just use shadow claw to kill aegislash? On the cb version its an easy 2hko, and braviary doesnt get its attack dropped by kings shield because defiant. That way you dont have to waste bulk and speed investing heavily in special attack too

It was mainly so you didn't get an attack drop and had reliable way to kill some big steel types (like Ferro and Skarm). Never said it was perfect, but its something.