Plently of pokemon that require support, such as Rain support for Kingdra and Kabutops, are placed in higher tiers. Ampharos needs wish support, but it ends there. It's bulky enough and powerful enough to both be a pivot and eliminate common and powerful threats. Similar in function to CB and AV Scizor. While life orb scizor/leftovers scizor/mega scizor has roost, his two most common sets do not. I think that should be a good enough argument for powerful pivot switches that also happen to be slow. AV Scizor, specifically, is probably the best example of this. They need some support, yes. But they can still be very dangerous.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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The biggest problem with Mega Amp is that its low speed means it will usually take a hit before it can Volt Switch. Combined with lack of recovery and vulnerability to all hazards it makes it much easier to wear down than Rotom-W (only weak to SR, only 1 weakness, can carry Lefties, has access to Pain Split if you want), Mega Manectric (can threaten shit with Thunderbolt/Flamethrower/HP Ice, has Intimidate to give it some artificial bulk, and is fast as fuck), Scizor (one weakness, access to Roost, can Defog, super bulky when Mega, nothing is immune to U-turn). It also has movepool issues, having to rely on Focus Miss to hit Excadrill and Mamoswine and Dragon Pulse is its only Dragon STAB (Draco Meteor + Volt Switch would have been awesome). While Power Gem is cool, any relevant Ice-Types you're hitting with it outspeed you (Kyurem-B, Mamoswine) and murder you.
EDIT: You can use it as a Chansey lure, however.
Ampharos @Ampharosite
Rash
96 HP, 116 Atk, 252 SpA, 44 Spd
Focus Punch
Volt Switch
Dragon Pulse
Filler
This set outspeeds Chansey and gets a guaranteed 2HKO with Focus Punch after SR.
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I would actually like to nominate Crawdaunt to B+ ranking.
I think he is one of the best stall breakers in the game being able to 2HKO Skarm and quagsire with a banded Crabhammer. Knock off also kills mega venusaur on the turn it comes in before it mega evolves. Crawdaunt is severely underrated as a stallbreaker as well as a revenge killer since his Aqua Jet hits harder than Azumarill's.
I think he is one of the best stall breakers in the game being able to 2HKO Skarm and quagsire with a banded Crabhammer. Knock off also kills mega venusaur on the turn it comes in before it mega evolves. Crawdaunt is severely underrated as a stallbreaker as well as a revenge killer since his Aqua Jet hits harder than Azumarill's.
Manectric (Mega) and Raikou rose to B+ in the VR thread and I believe that Suicune is good enough to sit beside them. There is nothing common in the OU tier that is immune to Water and rarely will one come across something that double-resists it; it really has a lot going for it. Suicune is different from most sweepers in that it can stallbreak and function as a check to a number of OU Pokemon. Suicune is nearly unbreakable after two Calm Mind boosts (only a handful of Pokemon can stop it then) and has an easy time setting up against many common Physical Attackers, especially with the aid of Burn. And that same Burn can cripple common switches into Suicune. There isn't really much to say; it's a very consistent win condition that find itself at home in more defensively inclined teams.
-> B+
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> A+ rank even with so much that I support this guy, he's the BEST wallbreaker in the game but the metagame has adapted.
Charizard Y is S-Rank because the unpredictability of which form it'll Mega Evolve into.
Then after it mega evolves? Just because it has this power ≠ S-Rank, it only has one set, while after it's revealed, it's not even a matter anymore.
This is a well known fact.
The question is, is that fact enough to push Charizard Y into S? It proves that Charizard Y is better than just its forme alone, but it doesn't prove the forme becomes strong enough to be S.
I wouldn't go rash on Ampharos, his bulk is the main reason to use him in the first place. I'm not so sure that outspeeding Chansey is really that big a deal. I'd actually go min speed, pump the rest of the EVs into HP, and for the "filler" move, use Substitute. Besides that this is actually pretty brilliant.
What I personally use is the Skarmory + Mega Ampharos + Clefable core, with Knock Off on Clefable to get rid of that pesky Eviolite. At which point, you can 3HKO with Focus Blast, but that can get pretty obnoxious and difficult to deal with with with Wish spam. After Eviolite is knocked off, even with no attack EVs Focus Punch still 2HKO's Chansey. I'll fiddle with this set, as I do think it's a good idea.
Why are people talking about moving Charizard Y down to A?
159 Base SpA with DROUGHT BOOSTED FIRE BLAST, reliable Solar Beam, instant recovery in Roost, and the ability to nail Heatran and Tyranitar with Focus Blast.
This thing should not even be considered for a drop unless the ranks are redefined.
Also, I think that Megas shouldn't be ranked separately. As people have said, part of the Charizards' viability is that you don't know which Mega Forme is coming.
Many of OU's viability comes from not knowing whether it's running a mega set or not. Gyarados, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Alakazam run very different sets from their mega formes, adding to BOTH of their viability.
Most Pokemon that you can be sure are going to Mega evolve aren't very relevant in OU (Bar Pinsir).
So Instead of having both Charizards in S, we should just have Charizard in general ranked in S. The obvious rebuttal will inevitably be, "But Charizard's base forme isn't viable at all, so it shouldn't be S-ranked!" This can be debunked easily if you think of each Mega Forme as a set instead of individual Pokemon. Specs Bisharp isn't viable at all, but Bisharp is still S-ranked because of it's good sets.
This argument applies to all megas.
159 Base SpA with DROUGHT BOOSTED FIRE BLAST, reliable Solar Beam, instant recovery in Roost, and the ability to nail Heatran and Tyranitar with Focus Blast.
This thing should not even be considered for a drop unless the ranks are redefined.
Also, I think that Megas shouldn't be ranked separately. As people have said, part of the Charizards' viability is that you don't know which Mega Forme is coming.
Many of OU's viability comes from not knowing whether it's running a mega set or not. Gyarados, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Alakazam run very different sets from their mega formes, adding to BOTH of their viability.
Most Pokemon that you can be sure are going to Mega evolve aren't very relevant in OU (Bar Pinsir).
So Instead of having both Charizards in S, we should just have Charizard in general ranked in S. The obvious rebuttal will inevitably be, "But Charizard's base forme isn't viable at all, so it shouldn't be S-ranked!" This can be debunked easily if you think of each Mega Forme as a set instead of individual Pokemon. Specs Bisharp isn't viable at all, but Bisharp is still S-ranked because of it's good sets.
This argument applies to all megas.
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ampharos checks zard-y and rotom-w which is something that manectric cannot boast
zard-y is a very good on-paper mon, yes, but zard-x / chansey on stall hard check it and thundurus / keldeo / lati@s and w/e offensive mons outspeed it. sash loom w/ rock tomb means that zard-y cannot even switch in on it :X it's a strong poke in the meta ya, but it's no where near as consistent or useful as the others. plus, zard-y doesn't really have as big of a defensive niche as other megas, even offensive ones such as tyranitar, being able to only soft check scizor and threaten ferrothorn / skarm i guess, but the latter is often filled by many other pokemon a team is going to naturally have anyway.. i think it's a+ or a
zard-y is a very good on-paper mon, yes, but zard-x / chansey on stall hard check it and thundurus / keldeo / lati@s and w/e offensive mons outspeed it. sash loom w/ rock tomb means that zard-y cannot even switch in on it :X it's a strong poke in the meta ya, but it's no where near as consistent or useful as the others. plus, zard-y doesn't really have as big of a defensive niche as other megas, even offensive ones such as tyranitar, being able to only soft check scizor and threaten ferrothorn / skarm i guess, but the latter is often filled by many other pokemon a team is going to naturally have anyway.. i think it's a+ or a
I agree, it shouldn't be S. Very few things can wall Charizard X, and even fewer can safely switch in. Whereas Charizard Y is countered by Mirror Coat Milotic (lol), checked by Mega Ampharos and Thick Fat Snorlax (also Air Balloon Heatran "checks" it if Air Balloon is still up), and walled by Chansey. Also, any faster electric type (aka most of them) will win 1v1 (although none can safely switch in).
TL;DR Zard-Y is really really good, but not difficult to check. A+ rank.
Edit: Although prior to mega evolving, the unpredictability does factor in. But I'm not sure that's really a solid enough reason to leave him at S Rank.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 250-296 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Milotic can't switch in safely and it's slower than Charizard Y, not a counter. It's a check. Mega ampharos has to mega evolve first so it won't be able to switch in unless you lead with ampharos (bad move in general), after it's mega evolved , Zard Y can't do much.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ampharos in Sun: 340-402 (88.5 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Yeah, Ampharos has to be mega evolved to counter, but then again, why bring counters that aren't even that used in OU? Ampharos gets low usage on the 1760s and same with Snorlax. Zard Y has few counters but the meta game HAS adapted it to the point where guessing wrong isn't an auto loss, It might not be S rank but A+ is a pretty high tier and I wouldn't ever see it drop from there.
chansey hard counters standard special zard-y and mixed just suicides vs any stall team for the most part; spdef hippo / gliscor give it a hard time
obviously if you see a charizard in team preview (sometimes it's ridiculously easy to pinpoint which charizard it actually is) you play so you can get ampharos to mega evolve early... "prediction" is hardly an argument in this case b/c it's ridiculous hard to stop a volt switch and your only hope is leading with landorus and then doubling or something to zard-y turn 2
bulky zard-x also beats zard-y on stall along with bulky waters that can tank a hit and toxic at least. why are we even discussing milotic lol..
obviously if you see a charizard in team preview (sometimes it's ridiculously easy to pinpoint which charizard it actually is) you play so you can get ampharos to mega evolve early... "prediction" is hardly an argument in this case b/c it's ridiculous hard to stop a volt switch and your only hope is leading with landorus and then doubling or something to zard-y turn 2
bulky zard-x also beats zard-y on stall along with bulky waters that can tank a hit and toxic at least. why are we even discussing milotic lol..
so char y to A+, bisharp to A+, almost everyone agrees, ok so moving on to:
Mega Mawile
Move up to S based on the fact that I shit my pants every time I see one
Swords Dance, Sub, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Focus Punch are just some of the moves this pissed off Iron Maiden carries to wreak havoc.
Pros: She eats teams with her two massive jaws that she beats and never feeds so they get hungry and mean
Cons: She's slow because she doesn't give a fuk
#waifu4S
Mega Mawile
Move up to S based on the fact that I shit my pants every time I see one
Swords Dance, Sub, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Focus Punch are just some of the moves this pissed off Iron Maiden carries to wreak havoc.
Pros: She eats teams with her two massive jaws that she beats and never feeds so they get hungry and mean
Cons: She's slow because she doesn't give a fuk
#waifu4S
anyway..
a few pokes i'd move down from a+ -> a would be venusaur and kyurem-b
both are legitimate mons and have utility, but i just don't think they're at the same level as landorus-i or azumarill. venusaur is one of those pokemon that makes for lazy teambuilding. that is, it's good on paper for checking various threats, but its 4mss is a huge downer. it really wants giga drain / sludge bomb / knock off / hp fire / synthesis / leech seed / sleep powder / earthquake, but it's just not able to run all of these moves and it has to deal with abysmal coverage because of it. the metagame has also adapted to venusaur in a few ways. specs hp flying keldeo, the resurgence of sand rush excadrill (which means ttar / hippo to neuter recovery), hp flying thundurus, jolly bd azu, etc. i just never find venusaur to be a superstar in any given team. it's mediocre in practice. this is why zard-x stall has been rising into popularity.
kyurem-b is just very MEH. if you face one of those bulky balance builds, it's great. but if you face stall or HO.. not so much. due to excadrill getting a lot of hype, thundurus has been running focus blast more often for both ttar and exca, so kyurem-b's niche of checking thundurus cannot even be achieved by itself. stall has chansey which just hard walls any set barring band which is skarmory --> counter bait. balance gets owned tho. life orb ice beam 2hkos phys def clef, and can possibly ohko a lot of the mons. but i mean, being great against one playstyle isn't worth the A+. stall just has answers and HO outspeeds it.
edit: mawile-- it's a strong nig, but is it really S? bulky ground types still give it a really rough (lol) type, and i just don't think it's on par with something like charizard-x which is ridiculously hard to stop. it's a great wallbreaker / offensive poke, but it's not just there imo. plus, greninja and mega ddtar can check too, and bulky wisp zard forces you to sucker if it hasn't revealed its moves and then u get owned unless u switch and risk getting struck by it.
a few pokes i'd move down from a+ -> a would be venusaur and kyurem-b
both are legitimate mons and have utility, but i just don't think they're at the same level as landorus-i or azumarill. venusaur is one of those pokemon that makes for lazy teambuilding. that is, it's good on paper for checking various threats, but its 4mss is a huge downer. it really wants giga drain / sludge bomb / knock off / hp fire / synthesis / leech seed / sleep powder / earthquake, but it's just not able to run all of these moves and it has to deal with abysmal coverage because of it. the metagame has also adapted to venusaur in a few ways. specs hp flying keldeo, the resurgence of sand rush excadrill (which means ttar / hippo to neuter recovery), hp flying thundurus, jolly bd azu, etc. i just never find venusaur to be a superstar in any given team. it's mediocre in practice. this is why zard-x stall has been rising into popularity.
kyurem-b is just very MEH. if you face one of those bulky balance builds, it's great. but if you face stall or HO.. not so much. due to excadrill getting a lot of hype, thundurus has been running focus blast more often for both ttar and exca, so kyurem-b's niche of checking thundurus cannot even be achieved by itself. stall has chansey which just hard walls any set barring band which is skarmory --> counter bait. balance gets owned tho. life orb ice beam 2hkos phys def clef, and can possibly ohko a lot of the mons. but i mean, being great against one playstyle isn't worth the A+. stall just has answers and HO outspeeds it.
edit: mawile-- it's a strong nig, but is it really S? bulky ground types still give it a really rough (lol) type, and i just don't think it's on par with something like charizard-x which is ridiculously hard to stop. it's a great wallbreaker / offensive poke, but it's not just there imo. plus, greninja and mega ddtar can check too, and bulky wisp zard forces you to sucker if it hasn't revealed its moves and then u get owned unless u switch and risk getting struck by it.
Okay. So just because it hits hard doesn't mean much. A lot of things can hit hard but that doesn't mean they're good. Sure zard y is good and is powerful but look at the current metagame it's adapted very well to it. Unlike it's counterpart which the meta is still trying to adapt to it correctly. It's checks/counters are more common, it's requires more support than zard x does and isn't very versatile.
The unpredictable argument is bad and people clutch onto to as their reason for basically not being able to read the team correctly. If you look at all the good zard y teams from Valentine's Rmt or the one used in spl and you can see that they are very very similar to each. Zard Y requires a certain type of support to even be successful whereas Zard x is much more self sustaining. Which is a big must for Pokemon in s rank.
I'll expand more on this later.
Also any more posts that mention Milotic as a check/counter will be deleted.. it's bad and irrelevant in ou.
Excuse me, sir, but the S Rank is not the "Shit Mah Pants" rank.so char y to A+, bisharp to A+, almost everyone agrees, ok so moving on to:
Mega Mawile
Move up to S based on the fact that I shit my pants every time I see one
Swords Dance, Sub, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Focus Punch are just some of the moves this pissed off Iron Maiden carries to wreak havoc.
Pros: She eats teams with her two massive jaws that she beats and never feeds so they get hungry and mean
Cons: She's slow because she doesn't give a fuk
#waifu4S
Really though, Mega Mawile is fine where it is. Were this VGC, hell yeah S Rank all the way. But I wouldn't say S Rank in XY OU singles. She's only about as bulky specially as Rotom-W, and physically about as much as Magnezone. She hits hella hard, yeah, and dat priority is mighty fine. But she's not that hard to kill when not behind a substitute. Hippowdon tears her a new asshole. As does Mega Garchomp. Or really any faster physically bulky attacker with a super effective STAB.
So yeah. She's undeniably one of the best pokemon this gen, and one of my favorite megas. But I think she should stay put.
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I don't. Does Bisharp have its share of flaws? All the S-Ranks do, to some degree. But Bisharp is able to take on several roles with one set and is never dead weight. Keep it at S.so char y to A+, bisharp to A+, almost everyone agrees, ok so moving on to:
Mega Mawile
Move up to S based on the fact that I shit my pants every time I see one
Swords Dance, Sub, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Focus Punch are just some of the moves this pissed off Iron Maiden carries to wreak havoc.
Pros: She eats teams with her two massive jaws that she beats and never feeds so they get hungry and mean
Cons: She's slow because she doesn't give a fuk
#waifu4S
None of the other S Ranks can be one-shot by an unboosted priority move. Breloom or Infernape or Conkeldurr's Mach Punch OHKO Bisharp 100% of the time. I'd say that's a pretty big deal for an S-Ranker, seeing as how neither Breloom or Conkeldurr are exactly uncommon. I still say move it to A+.
Edit: Proof --> 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 257-304 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 515-608 (184.5 - 217.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 304-364 (108.9 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The question here is why not go for knock off on aegislash
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 307-367 (94.7 - 113.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
also our new S-rank mon, landorus-i, just dies to ice shard, as bisharp dies to mach punch.
B/C I was specifically talking about priority.
And yes, Lando-I is now S Rank. Which makes sense for a pokemon formerly in Ubers, with a superb speed tier, a vast movepool (which also includes knock off), and an incredibly powerful ability in sheer force. Landorus-I is pretty much better than Bisharp in every way, excluding the 4x Ice Shard weakness.
they are two different mons
also defiant is about as good as sheer force
Defiant is nowhere near as good as sheer force, defiant requires a stat drop to work, Sheer Force snaps spines from the get-go
defiant can pressure defog users from using defog lest they wish to get shit on by bisharp
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