Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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I don't. Does Bisharp have its share of flaws? All the S-Ranks do, to some degree. But Bisharp is able to take on several roles with one set and is never dead weight. Keep it at S.


I agree that the power ranger is pretty awesome, the red ranger was my favorite back in the day.... I've used him a bunch, on like almost all my teams, and while I don't play the typical DeoSharp core, he still carries plenty of weight. Being able to defer defog is p nice, as is pursuiting shit which is one of my favorite uses of him, but then you have to lose swords dance which prevents him from doing a boosted sweep unless defog. It's not that big of a deal tho, i like both options. I even tried grass knot for a while and had i remembered that i had it i would have won a match up against megados lol but i choked, which is my fault, not based bisharps. Idk, I love using him on my teams but if most ppl are saying he should be moved down to A+ then I'll go along with that.

char x i havent used much so i wont say much, but it seems really good having recovery, burning stuff, bulk, and dishing out lots of damage
Lando I is excellent, he can be revenge killed just like everyone else but theres almost no good switch ins to his amazing move pool and power
Deo D pretty much always grants at least stealth rock, is bulky enough to set multiple times, and can run superpower/magic coat or a lot of other stuff to take u by surprise and is one of the essential pieces of the ever popular deo-sharp core...
Deo S is brilliant as a revenge killer, plus he can set up some hazards, LO 3 attacks, 4 attacks, screens, etc
Thundy I has so much coverage that by the time you've scouted him he's already done a bunch of damage to your team. No one likes suspecting the special variant and bringing in something to take the hit to get knocked off or superpowered or done in by hp ice, psychic, taunted, etc etc very unpredictable.
Yea that's just my comments on S rank...

...as to who id like to see moved up or down, I'm not against kyube or m-venu moving down...I loved using Kyubes sub + 3 attacks like 2 months ago but i havent used him since. M-Venu, I've never really liked cuz he just sits there and doesnt die..he's pretty easy to play around now that everyone and their mum carries stuff to beat him, i havent had trouble with him in recent history, not that that means a whole lot he's still pretty capable...

Stuff that I like at the moment, Ferrothorn and Hippowdon for sure...some ppl have mentioned them and Idk if they need to move up or anything, but they're pretty great. Ferrothorn stacks hazards, leech seeds, can carry lefties for longevity w/ protect or rocky helmet for that sweet residual damage, has pretty insane bulk when fully invested , spDefensive is p good, has strong atcks and is no slouch with Gyro Ball which can take out mons trying to ddance on you, Power Whip, Knock off can surprise aegislash/lati@s, even bulldoze hehe which ive seen in some tournament play, Bloo iirc - i belive they were the one to bring ferro back to popularity - annnnnyway it walls a huge amt of shit and has two weakness, fire and fighting, which are common and kind of bad.... It doesn't do much tho to keldeo/char x/ lando i/ and some others i guess but it can be annoying af to take out sometimes.

hippo is in the same boat pretty much, reliable stealth rocker , recovery, can toxic blablahblah everyone knows what hippo does and he's good at it.

so if there's talk of venu moving down, as i honestly haven't seen much of him lately, and even on stall teams...well I don't wanna rep Hippo and Ferro too much, but i do like using them and they do pretty well i guess

as for moving down...manaphy, mandibuzz, terrakion, mamoswine...kind of arbitrary really but hardly anyone uses mamoswine once u get above 1500 elo or so, terrakion is good with a band, but very exploitable, he can set rocks and stuff too and is powerful, but i think he would fit well with scizor, gyarados, skarmory in A-.
I'd much rather use normal Gyarados or Scizor before i'd use mamoswine, so B+ for the mammoth.

Mandibuzz is really good..given the right circumstances. Giving trouble to bisharp/aegislash is one of the only things she does well...other than that you can hope your opp sets up so you can foul play which is pretty usefull, you can defog, taunt, but constantly getting worn down by hazards is a thing, and a lot of the time she can't do much besides trying to roost back up to stall out LO damage on the opp or something. idk, A- would probs be good for her, EDIT: altho id be fine with her staying in A

Manaphy is good on paper but against an offensive team she doesnt get the chance to really set up...still a threat with boosts but would fit well in B+ with M-Gardevoir, Diggersby, etc...sry if that's too much of a jump for most of you guys

anyway, im not one to get into big calculator debates or whatever, these are just a couple thoughts i have on a few mons
 
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so char y to A+, bisharp to A+, almost everyone agrees, ok so moving on to:
110px-303Mawile-Mega.png

Mega Mawile

Move up to S based on the fact that I shit my pants every time I see one
Swords Dance, Sub, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Iron Head, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Focus Punch are just some of the moves this pissed off Iron Maiden carries to wreak havoc.

Pros: She eats teams with her two massive jaws that she beats and never feeds so they get hungry and mean
Cons: She's slow because she doesn't give a fuk

#waifu4S

Mega Mawile is good, but I don't feel she is S-ranke material. Mawile's slow speed makes it have difficulty getting a hit off on offensive teams. It's reliance on Sucker Punch makes it very difficult for her to really get a real sweep going against offensive teams if it is using SD and gives many opportunities to the opponent to regain momentum. Substitute alleviates that problem to an extent, but the lack of Leftovers makes Substitute really cut into your bulk and limits your opportunities to switch in latter. It is great vs more defensive teams and balance teams as a wallbreaker, but the majority of the teams now are offensive. It also has some 4MSS because dropping one of its options leaves it vulnerable to other checks (no Iron Head --> mega saur problem, no Fire Fang / Focus Punch --> bulky steel problem) Ultimately, Mawile falls short against S-rank because unlike other S-rank threats, Mawile does not have a strong matchup against all team archetypes or is strong in all situations (falling short on offense / moveslot choices doesn't cover all checks).
 
defiant can pressure defog users from using defog lest they wish to get shit on by bisharp
Why yes, yes it can.

Not everyone uses defog. Many prefer Rapid Spin, and others, such as myself, don't use either. Defiant isn't exactly niche, but when compared to sheer force... there really isn't much of a debate over which is better.
 
Why yes, yes it can.

Not everyone uses defog. Many prefer Rapid Spin, and others, such as myself, don't use either. Defiant isn't exactly niche, but when compared to sheer force... there really isn't much of a debate over which is better.
sure bisharp may be worse than lando but it's ranking is representative of its role in the meta, as is lando-is
 
I'd like to ask, why is Mega T-Tar still in A+?
Personally, I never ever see this guy, whereas Keldeo, Greninja, Talonflame, Azumarill etc are all over the place.
Normal T-Tar has the option of running more bulk investment, Assault Vest, leftovers, choice scarf/band, going special, pursuit trapping, setting rocks..
whereas Mega T-Tar has the Dragon Dance set... (along with some increased stats..)
Is that really enough to push him up a rank?
Just for perspective, Latios, Dragonite, and Heatran are all in A, along with normal T-Tar. I don't see Mega T-Tar having any more influence than them. What do you guys think?
 
I'd like to ask, why is Mega T-Tar still in A+?
Personally, I never ever see this guy, whereas Keldeo, Greninja, Talonflame, Azumarill etc are all over the place.
Normal T-Tar has the option of running more bulk investment, Assault Vest, leftovers, choice scarf/band, going special, pursuit trapping, setting rocks..
whereas Mega T-Tar has the Dragon Dance set... (along with some increased stats..)
Is that really enough to push him up a rank?
Just for perspective, Latios, Dragonite, and Heatran are all in A, along with normal T-Tar. I don't see Mega T-Tar having any more influence than them. What do you guys think?
Pretty sure mega tartar doesn't loose pursuit or rocks when it mega evolves... It also has almost unheard of bulk at 100/150/120 up from 100/110/100. It's arguably the best dragon dancer in the tier making it one of the if not the most bulky sweeper in the tier not to mention it's massive 165 base attack and edgequake coverage. Throw on sandstorms 50% boost to spdef and A+ seems the minimum to me. The only thing holding it back is it's poor typing.
 
Zard Y should stay S. You know, Charizard has two mega evos, not just one. I can't think of one pokemon who can claim to counter both. What if I switch Chansey into Charizard and it's revealed to be X? What if I switch Gyarados into Zard and it's revealed to be Y? Charizard has no counters prior to Mega Evolving.
Don't forget Zard Y also has a monstrous 159 Special Attack and can screw with its "counters" pretty easily.
 
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Nominating Chesnaught for B+.

I'd say A-, but let's move slowly.

This thing is amazing on stall. It walls many physical attackers, while wearing them off with Leech Seed, and being able to hit back hard if necessary. It laughs at any variant of Aegislash not carrying Flash Cannon. It kind of works like Mega Venusaur, except that it has worse defensive typing and kind of underwhelming Sp Def. But it doesn't use a mega slot, so it may be well worth the trade off.
 
Zard Y should stay S. You know, Charizard has two mega evos, not just one. I can't think of one pokemon who can claim to counter both. What if I switch Chansey into Charizard and it's revealed to be X? What if I switch Gyarados into Zard and it's revealed to be Y? Charizard has no counters prior to Mega Evolving.
Don't forget Zard Y also has a monstrous 159 Special Attack and can screw with its "counters" pretty easily.

We all know that both Charizards are uncounterable before they mega evolve but what makes Zard Y A+ rank and what makes Zard X S rank is the price you pay for guessing wrong.

If you guess wrong with Charizard Y you will probably lose one pokemon.

If you guess wrong with Charizard X you have to worry about your whole team getting swept.

Losing a pokemon to Charizard Y always sucks but it isn't that hard to revenge kill or force out. The metagame has adapted so that most teams naturally have one or more Zard Y checks/counters. Common things like Garchomp, Lati@s, Terrakion, Dragonite, Scarf Excadrill/Landorus-T, Talonflame, Thundurus, Raikou, Mega Manectric, and Mega Pinsir if it's already mega evolved, can all come in on a healthy Charizard-Y after its killed something and threaten it with an OHKO or in Latias and Dragonite's case tank a hit and 2HKO. If we put prior damage/SR damage into the equation its list of checks gets bigger. Specs Keldeo only needs 12% prior damage to OHKO in the Sun with Hydro Pump, Bisharp only needs 25% to OHKO with Sucker Punch, Greninja can kill it with Ice Beam after SR damage, and so on.

Compare that to Charizard X, who, assuming that you guessed wrong and let it set up a DDance for free, the only counters that can come in safely on both Adamant and Jolly variants are Azumarill and physically defensive Hippowdon. Scarf Garchomp + Terrakion and Deo-S are the only checks guaranteed to outspeed at +1 but are fucked if it gets to +2. If you don't have any of those then your best bet is to spam priority moves/Prankster T-Wave at it or try to whittle it down with chip damage + Flare Blitz recoil. Zard X simply has way fewer checks and counters to deal with than Zard Y and the price the opponent pays for losing the Charizard guessing game is much more devastating with Zard X than it is with Zard Y.

I also don't agree that Zard Y screws with its counters easily. Sure, it can kill Chansey with Flare Blitz. But to do that it needs to dump a whopping 200 EVs in Attack just to get a guaranteed 2HKO on 0/252+ Chansey and loses more than 70% of its health in the process. CBB's Specially Defensive Dragonite can 2HKO Zard Y before it can do the same with Dragon Pulse. Goodra may be shitty but it's not scared of anything Charizard Y can throw at it. Specially defensive Talonflame and Mega Ampharos just do not give a fuck. Now compare that to Charizard X, whose main checks and counters (Azumarill, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Terrakion, Excadrill, Rhyperior, Quagsire, Landorus-T, Gyarados) are all fucked if it turns out to be the BulkyZard set and get crippled by Will-O-Wisp on the switch-in.
 
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Bisharp doesn't deserve an S positionbecause iut requires the support of Deoxys-D to be really effective.

Not only priority exists, specially with a pokemon with 70 Base Speed. There's Sucker Punch, but this move can be resisted by three types, one of them are Fighting types, where we have some effective choices


The list of checks of Bisharo wuith superfeective moves IS really big. And remember that it has 70 Base Speed.
Things that can use Fighting moves in the OU metagame
-Aegislash (Sacred Sword)
-Mega Charizard Y (Focus Blast)
-Deoxys-Speed (Superpower)
-Thundurus-I (Focus Blast, Superpower)
-Azumarill (Superpower)
-Keldeo (Secret Sword)
-Kyurem-B (Focus Blast)
-Landorus-I (Focus Blast)
-Mega Mawile (Brick Break)
-Mega Pinsir (Close Combat)
-(Mega) Scizor (Superpower)
-Gengar (Focus Blast)
-Landorus-T (Superpower)
-Terrakion (Close Combat, Sacred Sword)
-Politoed (Focus Blast)
-Conkeldurr (Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Hammer Arm)
-Mega Gardevoir (Focus Blast)
-Mega Medicham (Hi Jump Kick, Drain punch)
-Mega Blastoise (Aura Sphere)
-Breloom (Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Force Palm, Super Power, Sky Sppercut, Focus Punch)
-Chesnaught (Hammer Arm, Brick Break)
-Mega Heracross (Close Combat, Arm Thrust)
-Lucario (Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Vaccum Wave)

-Mew (Aura Sphere)
-Raikou (Aura Sphere)
-Tornadus-T (Focus Blast, Superpower)
-Victini (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
-(Mega) Alakazam: Focus Blast
-Gothitelle (Focus Blast)
-Staraptor (Close Combat)
-Mega Abomasnow: Focus Blast
-Mega Ampharos Focus Blast
-Darmanitan: Superpower
-Goodra: Focus Blast
-Hydreigon (Focus Blast)
-Reuniclus (Focus Blast)
-Tangroth (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
-Thundurus-T (Focus Blast)
-Togekiss (Aura Sphere)
-Weavile (Low Kick, Brick Break)
-Infernape (Focus Blast, Mach Punch, Focus Blast)
-Kyurem (Focus Blast)
-Noivern (Focus Blast)
-Tornadus (Focus Blast)
-Toxicroak (Cross Chop, Brick Break, Focus Blast, Vaccum Wave)
-Hawlucha (Hi Jump Kick)
-
Meloetta (Close Combat, Focus Blast)
-Zoroark (Focus Blast)
-Honchkrow (Superpower)
-Machamp (Dynamic Punch, Close Combat)
-Nidoking (Focus Blast)

Fire types (here I will do the ones that OHKOes Bisharp):
-Mega Charizard X (Flare blitz, Fire Punch, Fire Blast)
-Mega Charizard Y (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, overheat, Flare Blitz)
-Talonflame (Flare Blitz, OVerheat, Flare Blast)

-(Mega) Tyranitar(Fire Blast)
-Clefable (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Dragonite (Fire Punch)
-Gengar (HP Fire)
-Heatran (Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, OVerheat, Magma Storm)
-Latios (Hp Fire)
-Mega Garchomp (Fire Blast)
-Zapdos (Heat Wave)
-Mega Medicham (Fire Punch)
-Slowbro (Fire Blast)
-Mega Manectric (Flamethrower, Overheat)
-Mew (Fire Blast)
-Tornadus-T (Heat Wave)
-Victini (V-create, Blue Flare, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, Searing Shot)
-
Mega Absol (Fire Blast)
-Entei (Sacred Fire, Flare Blitz)
-Rotom-H (Overheat)
-Volcarona (Fiery Dance, Fire Blast)

-Mega Aerodactyl (Fire Fang)
-Chandelure (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, overheat)
-Darmanitan (Flare Blitz, Fire Punch)
-
Goodra (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Hydreigon (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Ninetales (Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Overheat)
-
Togekiss (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)
-Azelf (Fire Blast)
-Mega Houndoom (Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Overheat)
-Infernape (Flare Blitz, Fire Punch, Overheat, Fire Blast)

-Magnezone (Hp Fire)
-Moltres (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, OVerheat)
-Noivern (Flamethrower)
-Salamence (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)
_Slowiking (Fire Blast)
-Zoroark (Flamethrower)
-Exploud (Fire Blast)
-Nidoking (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)

And also, Ground types.
-Mega Charizard X (Earthquake)
-Mega Charizard Y (Earthquake)
-(Mega) Garchomp (Earthquake, Earth Power)
-(Mega) Gyarados (Earthquake)
-Kyurem-B (Earth power)
-Landorus-I (Earth Power, Earthquake)
-Mega Pinsir (Earthquake)
-(Mega) tyranitar (Earthquake)
-Mega venusaur (Earthquake)
-Dragonoite (Earthquake)
-Heatran (Earth Power)
-Hippowdon (Earth power)
-Terrakion (Earthquake)
-Mamoswine (Earthquake)
-Diggersby (earthquake)
-Gliscor (Earthquake)

-Mega Heracross (Earthquake)
-Quagsire (Earthquake)
_Mega Aggron (Earthquake)
-Rhyperior (Earthquake)
-Zygarde (Earthquake)

-Mega Aerodactyl (Earthquake)
_Darmanitan (Earthquake)
-Dugtrio (Earthquake)
-
Haxorus (Earthquake)
-Hydreigon (Earth Power)
-Krookodile (Earthquake)
-Escavalier (Drill Run)
-Salamence (Earthquake)
-Snorlax (Earthquake)
-Shaymin (Earth Power)
-Nidoking (Earthquake, Earth power)

I amde4 this big list to show all the threats that can OHKO or severely cripple it by using super effective moves. It's so huge that it represent over half of the tier.

I put a set that it's 100% outclassed: Fire Blast Victini (Blue Flare outclassesit) I posted it because people can actually forgot that Victini learns that move (it's associated with Reshiram) and people go to Fire Blast(a move that is standard on every Fire type).
 
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Bisharp doesn't deserve an S positionbecause iut requires the support of Deoxys-D to be really effective.

Not only priority exists, specially with a pokemon with 70 Base Speed. There's Sucker Punch, but this move can be resisted by three types, one of them are Fighting types, where we have some effective choices

Things that can use Fighting moves in the OU metagame
-Aegislash (Sacred Sword)
-Mega Charizard Y (Focus Blast)
-Deoxys-Speed (Superpower)
-Thundurus-I (Focus Blast, Superpower)
-Azumarill (Superpower)
-Keldeo (Secret Sword)
-Kyurem-B (Focus Blast)
-Landorus-I (Focus Blast)
-Mega Mawile (Brick Break)
-Mega Pinsir (Close Combat)
-(Mega) Scizor (Superpower)
-Gengar (Focus Blast)
-Landorus-T (Superpower)
-Terrakion (Close Combat, Sacred Sword)
-Politoed (Focus Blast)
-Conkeldurr (Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Hammer Arm)
-Mega Gardevoir (Focus Blast)
-Mega Medicham (Hi Jump Kick, Drain punch)
-Mega Blastoise (Aura Sphere)
-Breloom (Mach Punch, Drain Punch, Force Palm, Super Power, Sky Sppercut, Focus Punch)
-Chesnaught (Hammer Arm, Brick Break)
-Mega Heracross (Close Combat, Arm Thrust)
-Lucario (Close Combat, Hi Jump Kick, Drain Punch, Aura Sphere, Focus Blast, Vaccum Wave)

-Mew (Aura Sphere)
-Raikou (Aura Sphere)
-Tornadus-T (Focus Blast, Superpower)
-Victini (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
-(Mega) Alakazam: Focus Blast
-Gothitelle (Focus Blast)
-Staraptor (Close Combat)
-Mega Abomasnow: Focus Blast
-Mega Ampharos Focus Blast
-Darmanitan: Superpower
-Goodra: Focus Blast
-Hydreigon (Focus Blast)
-Reuniclus (Focus Blast)
-Tangroth (Focus Blast, Brick Break)
-Thundurus-T (Focus Blast)
-Togekiss (Aura Sphere)
-Weavile (Low Kick, Brick Break)
-Infernape (Focus Blast, Mach Punch, Focus Blast)
-Kyurem (Focus Blast)
-Noivern (Focus Blast)
-Tornadus (Focus Blast)
-Toxicroak (Cross Chop, Brick Break, Focus Blast, Vaccum Wave)
-Hawlucha (Hi Jump Kick)
-
Meloetta (Close Combat, Focus Blast)
-Zoroark (Focus Blast)
-Honchkrow (Superpower)
-Machamp (Dynamic Punch, Close Combat)
-Nidoking (Focus Blast)

Fire types (here I will do the ones that OHKOes Bisharp):
-Mega Charizard X (Flare blitz, Fire Punch, Fire Blast)
-Mega Charizard Y (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, overheat, Flare Blitz)
-Talonflame (Flare Blitz, OVerheat, Flare Blast)

-(Mega) Tyranitar(Fire Blast)
-Clefable (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Dragonite (Fire Punch)
-Gengar (HP Fire)
-Heatran (Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, OVerheat, Magma Storm)
-Latios (Hp Fire)
-Mega Garchomp (Fire Blast)
-Zapdos (Heat Wave)
-Mega Medicham (Fire Punch)
-Slowbro (Fire Blast)
-Mega Manectric (Flamethrower, Overheat)
-Mew (Fire Blast)
-Tornadus-T (Heat Wave)
-Victini (V-create, Blue Flare, Flare Blitz, Fire Blast, Searing Shot)
-
Mega Absol (Fire Blast)
-Entei (Sacred Fire, Flare Blitz)
-Rotom-H (Overheat)
-Volcarona (Fiery Dance, Fire Blast)

-Mega Aerodactyl (Fire Fang)
-Chandelure (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, overheat)
-Darmanitan (Flare Blitz, Fire Punch)
-
Goodra (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Hydreigon (Flamethrower, Fire Blast)
-Ninetales (Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Overheat)
-
Togekiss (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)
-Azelf (Fire Blast)
-Mega Houndoom (Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Overheat)
-Infernape (Flare Blitz, Fire Punch, Overheat, Fire Blast)

-Magnezone (Hp Fire)
-Moltres (Flamethrower, Fire Blast, OVerheat)
-Noivern (Flamethrower)
-Salamence (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)
_Slowiking (Fire Blast)
-Zoroark (Flamethrower)
-Exploud (Fire Blast)
-Nidoking (Fire Blast, Flamethrower)

And also, Ground types.
-Mega Charizard X (Earthquake)
-Mega Charizard Y (Earthquake)
-(Mega) Garchomp (Earthquake, Earth Power)
-(Mega) Gyarados (Earthquake)
-Kyurem-B (Earth power)
-Landorus-I (Earth Power, Earthquake)
-Mega Pinsir (Earthquake)
-(Mega) tyranitar (Earthquake)
-Mega venusaur (Earthquake)
-Dragonoite (Earthquake)
-Heatran (Earth Power)
-Hippowdon (Earth power)
-Terrakion (Earthquake)
-Mamoswine (Earthquake)
-Diggersby (earthquake)
-Gliscor (Earthquake)

-Mega Heracross (Earthquake)
-Quagsire (Earthquake)
_Mega Aggron (Earthquake)
-Rhyperior (Earthquake)
-Zygarde (Earthquake)

-Mega Aerodactyl (Earthquake)
_Darmanitan (Earthquake)
-Dugtrio (Earthquake)
-
Haxorus (Earthquake)
-Hydreigon (Earth Power)
-Krookodile (Earthquake)
Both Zard Megas don't deserve S-Rank then because they need Defog support based on your logic.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Bisharp's pros quite clearly outweigh its cons, being able to wallbreak, sweep, and support in one set.

Also the number of checks/counters Bisharp has goes down significantly for every Defiant boost it gets.

Also lol at Aegislash beating Bisharp when Bisharp is its #1 check.
 
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Scolipede is B+ because it can pass Swords Dance, Iron Defense and speed at the same time. It's the only Pokemon in the game who can claim to do that (reliably). For this reason, Scolipede's a staple on full Baton Pass chains. It's a very good QuickPasser too.
 
Scolipede is B+ because it can pass Swords Dance, Iron Defense and speed at the same time. It's the only Pokemon in the game who can claim to do that (reliably). For this reason, Scolipede's a staple on full Baton Pass chains. It's a very good QuickPasser too.

Scolipede is B+ because it has a really good LO cleaner set, which works very well with a lot of physical wall breakers/sweepers. The Baton Pass sets are mostly bad and gimmicky.
 
Zard Y should stay S. You know, Charizard has two mega evos, not just one. I can't think of one pokemon who can claim to counter both. What if I switch Chansey into Charizard and it's revealed to be X? What if I switch Gyarados into Zard and it's revealed to be Y? Charizard has no counters prior to Mega Evolving.
Don't forget Zard Y also has a monstrous 159 Special Attack and can screw with its "counters" pretty easily.


I already refuted most of this in the my post here and the one VR. Zard Y isn't as effective anymore, its counters/checks are much more common and its not too hard to deal with. Despite that 159 SpA stat its still has counters. Dragonite, Zard X, Garchomp, Heatran, Chansey, Blissey, AV Azu, Scarf/SR Exca, Scarf Lando-T, Sash Breloom are all able to dispose of it.

It's not like differentiating Zard Y at preview is that difficult. There are few instances where you can't truly tell which one it is but most of the time you can, the guess work isn't as big as you make it out to be. In the case the you do guess wrong and you send Chansey and its turns out to be Zard X, you still have a Quagsire that handles it. Honestly, which one of the two is more likely to destroy you if read the team wrong? Zard X, it Dragon Dances and that could easily be GG. Zard Y doesnt pose that same threat. On top of that it has one usable set and can easily be played around and dealt with. Zard X on the other hand is much more versatile and is much harder to prepare for.

I dont understand why people are so hung up on the fact that it has two Mega Evolutions. That shouldn't be a big point as it is made to be. Like I said in my VR post:

Subject 18 said:
People need to think less about how the Zards together and more how they function separately because the whole "unpredictability" because of its counterpart only goes so far and this isn't about how unpredictable it is because of the other more its more about how viable each one is individually. Zard Y isn't as viable as it was 2 months ago.

Bottom line: Zard Y has fallen from the ranks as an S-rank pokemon. The meta has adapted to it much better than it has for Zard X, its counters/checks are more common. It requires a good amount of supports to be successful and isn't as self-sufficient in comparison to other S-ranked pokemon who all require little to no support to function properly.
 
Pretty sure mega tartar doesn't loose pursuit or rocks when it mega evolves... It also has almost unheard of bulk at 100/150/120 up from 100/110/100. It's arguably the best dragon dancer in the tier making it one of the if not the most bulky sweeper in the tier not to mention it's massive 165 base attack and edgequake coverage. Throw on sandstorms 50% boost to spdef and A+ seems the minimum to me. The only thing holding it back is it's poor typing.
Eh I'm not going to debate facts, but as to best dragon dancer in the tier? Char X, M-Gyarados - alright so there aren't many - but even Dragonite has superior typing, Multiscale, and priority, even though his base attack is lower, I would seriously consider using him before Mega T-Tar.

As to losing pursuit or rocks, it's more of a waste of moveslot on DDance Mega T-Tar, as maybe somebody out there uses those moves on him, but no one I've ever seen has used anything but the DDance set - DD/Crunch/Ice Punch/Stone Edge..maybe Earthquake somewhere. If you decide to run rocks or pursuit on him, you're losing out on either valuable coverage or power. I think it's safe to say that the DDance set is his most viable set, if his only one, as 100% of Mega T-Tar I've seen run this, and I would be hard pressed to consider running him without since this is supposedly his main advantage over his regular form.

Being a bulky sweeper is fine, but with no speed investment mega-T-Tar reaches max 267 after a boost, outsped by all relevant threats such as Excadrill, Keldeo, Garchomp, Terrakion, Max Spd Lando-T, - basically any +speed natured base 73's and up. This is a concern because if you invest in bulk, it severely limits his ability to sweep as even after a boost he will still be slower than most. Regular T-Tar doesn't have this problem as he's more likely fine with being slow so he can invest almost fully in HP, and even in Defense/SpD if taking a support role.

So either DDance Mega T-Tar has a better move set that people don't use, or people aren't using him right for me to be impressed. Maybe he's not one of those mons that you can just throw on every team. On paper he sounds ridiculous, but in practice with his trademark set he fails to live up to expectations.
 
what lol

if you're using megattar, you should be using dd, period. oppurtunity cost comes into play here

mega ddtar is arguably the most consistent mega in terms of destructive capability in a match-by-match alongside zard-x; even gyarados can have matchups which he is relatively useless in and is far easier to check-- if you're not using ddtar with speed.... you're just legit dumb (similarly, +spe) it lets you revenge kill standard bisharp which is a huge boon, along with the fact that you're like 393 or something at +1 which is relatively fast. ddtar is just so good because of its great bulk and offensive stab(s). even scarfchomp / scarfexca have trouble ohkoing, and the best checks are relatively rare, being scarf keldeo and conkeldurr. i think regular ttar is kinda mediocre... i have absolutely 0 clue how you think it even touches mega tar in viability. if you think it's a bad sweeper, i question your metagame knowledge. being able to tank pretty much everything, threaten aegislash with dd and possibly force it to stay in and EQ (it's a 5050 in your favor) and the omnipresence of lati@s to set up on.. ya it's top notch
 
This keeps getting bypassed for some reason so I'll mention it

Mega Gyarados for S-Rank

Mega Gyarados is arguably the best set-up sweeper in the tier. With a monstrous 155 attack stat, at +1 nothing can really take it on. Plus, it gets multiple set-up opportunities due to its great 95/109/130 bulk and the ability (no pun intended) to kill would-be checks, such as Rotom-W, it gets a defined place in S-Rank.


 
Eh I'm not going to debate facts, but as to best dragon dancer in the tier? Char X, M-Gyarados - alright so there aren't many - but even Dragonite has superior typing, Multiscale, and priority, even though his base attack is lower, I would seriously consider using him before Mega T-Tar.

As to losing pursuit or rocks, it's more of a waste of moveslot on DDance Mega T-Tar, as maybe somebody out there uses those moves on him, but no one I've ever seen has used anything but the DDance set - DD/Crunch/Ice Punch/Stone Edge..maybe Earthquake somewhere. If you decide to run rocks or pursuit on him, you're losing out on either valuable coverage or power. I think it's safe to say that the DDance set is his most viable set, if his only one, as 100% of Mega T-Tar I've seen run this, and I would be hard pressed to consider running him without since this is supposedly his main advantage over his regular form.

Being a bulky sweeper is fine, but with no speed investment mega-T-Tar reaches max 267 after a boost, outsped by all relevant threats such as Excadrill, Keldeo, Garchomp, Terrakion, Max Spd Lando-T, - basically any +speed natured base 73's and up. This is a concern because if you invest in bulk, it severely limits his ability to sweep as even after a boost he will still be slower than most. Regular T-Tar doesn't have this problem as he's more likely fine with being slow so he can invest almost fully in HP, and even in Defense/SpD if taking a support role.

So either DDance Mega T-Tar has a better move set that people don't use, or people aren't using him right for me to be impressed. Maybe he's not one of those mons that you can just throw on every team. On paper he sounds ridiculous, but in practice with his trademark set he fails to live up to expectations.
He does live up to expectations. He is THE bulkiest Dragon Dancer not counting abilities, and Sand Stream allows for some sneaky 2HKOes and OHKOes. 100/150/120 in sand is utterly ridiculous bulk, and can take damage to the point where its embarrassing. it can set up on shit like greninja, talonflame, unboosted mega pinsir, latios, latias, dragonite(sand stream breaks multiscale and mega ttar should run jolly), and more I'm too lazy to think of. Also, Mega TTar's attack is so retardedly high you can run a neutral nature, and invest in speed and bulk. If you run 252HP/252 Spd/ 4 atk, after one dragon dance, you hit 379 speed, 487~ attack, and with that bulk, you can keep dancing. Want some calcs?

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 252-298 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Taking these type of hits is downright embarrassing, and allows you to get up multiple dragon dances. And the above aegislash calc means it can set up on typical revenge killers like garchomp, terrakion, and deo-s to outspeed them. at that point, if you lack an SE priority user, its GG. I would push for S, but its typing is terrible for a setup sweeper.
 
I disagree with Mega Gyarados moving up to S. His typing really ain't the best, his STABS are limited to water types (lol bite), and he lacks a priority move.

He's hella good, but not S rank good.

Also pls move down Bisharp.
 
what lol

if you're using megattar, you should be using dd, period. oppurtunity cost comes into play here

mega ddtar is arguably the most consistent mega in terms of destructive capability alongside zard-x; even gyarados can have matchups which he is relatively useless in and is far easier to check-- if you're not using ddtar with speed.... you're just legit dumb (similarly, +spe) it lets you revenge kill standard bisharp which is a huge boon, along with the fact that you're like 393 or something at +1 which is relatively fast. ddtar is just so good because of its great bulk and offensive stab(s). even scarfchomp / scarfexca have trouble ohkoing, and the best checks are relatively rare, being scarf keldeo and conkeldurr. i think regular ttar is kinda mediocre... i have absolutely 0 clue how you think it even touches mega tar in viability. if you think it's a bad sweeper, i question your metagame knowledge. being able to tank pretty much everything, threaten aegislash with dd and possibly force it to stay in and EQ (it's a 5050 in your favor) and the omnipresence of lati@s to set up on.. ya it's top notch
Alright I respect this...why would anyone use anything else but the DD set, or not invest in Speed? This is his main selling point.
I like regular T-Tar because it can run many more sets which you are well aware of.
As to metagame knowledge, I'm not as good as you Dice , so I'll give you something there. But I've used Mega T-Tar and I've faced plenty, and never have I been afraid that he's going to sweep. It's very possible that I just haven't faced really good players who know how to use him.
I recall a couple SPL matches where he was close to deadweight. Not that this means a whole lot in the face of more experience. I've also seen loads of top level replays where the players either don't use Mega T-Tar at all, or are not very successful with him. Being a Tournament player I might expect you to say that ladder replays don't matter, so ~
Second hand experience/watching top level replays shouldn't be that important though, and I'd be more than willing to be convinced that he's better than I think he is.

He does live up to expectations. He is THE bulkiest Dragon Dancer not counting abilities, and Sand Stream allows for some sneaky 2HKOes and OHKOes. 100/150/120 in sand is utterly ridiculous bulk, and can take damage to the point where its embarrassing. it can set up on shit like greninja, talonflame, unboosted mega pinsir, latios, latias, dragonite(sand stream breaks multiscale and mega ttar should run jolly), and more I'm too lazy to think of. Also, Mega TTar's attack is so retardedly high you can run a neutral nature, and invest in speed and bulk. If you run 252HP/252 Spd/ 4 atk, after one dragon dance, you hit 379 speed, 487~ attack, and with that bulk, you can keep dancing. Want some calcs?

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 340-400 (84.1 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 252-298 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Taking these type of hits is downright embarrassing, and allows you to get up multiple dragon dances. And the above aegislash calc means it can set up on typical revenge killers like garchomp, terrakion, and deo-s to outspeed them. at that point, if you lack an SE priority user, its GG. I would push for S, but its typing is terrible for a setup sweeper.

Thank you for your input Smog Frog, these replies and serious support in favor are making me much more willing to try him out again. He just hasn't seemed very good to me in the past, but I'm willing to put this aside. I still am wary of taking damage while Dragon Dancing, to be killed on the next turn, but I will attempt again to utilize him successfully~let's see what the Dragon Dancing Dinosaur can do
 
Mega TTar is nice but I wouldnt say its better than normal TTar. Its certainly better suited for a sweeping role but since its so good at sweeping it will never be anything else and it has lots of flaws as a sweeper. Yes its bulk is amazing but its typing pretty much ruins that advantage and it suffers alot from priority as mach punch, bullet punch and aqua jet all do tons of dmg.

Normal TTar has the advantage of beeing far less predictable. It can be scarfed, banded, Assault Vest, Lefties it can fill so many roles and its good in all of them. Imo A+ would be appropriate for both forms.

I agree with Gyarados for S Rank, I ve been suggesting that months ago and I still think he deserves it as he is amazing as a sweeper. His combination of Power, Bulk and flexibility is unrivaled and makes him threatening as hell.
 
I disagree with Mega Gyarados moving up to S. His typing really ain't the best, his STABS are limited to water types (lol bite), and he lacks a priority move.

He's hella good, but not S rank good.

Also pls move down Bisharp.

Mega Gyarados is such more than you're making it out to be. It technically has three types, with two varying combos, if that makes sense. You can stay Gyarados as long as you want, so you're Water / Flying until you decide to become a Dark-type, that sounds weird, doesn't it? Basically, Gyarados can come in on say Conkeldurr, and Conkeldurr can try and use Drain Punch expecting the Dark-type change, but you stay Flying, making it a free set up, then you can safely boost / attack until the Pokemon is gone. Finally, you can mega evolve and you've now got a huge threat. Unaware cannot possible beat it thanks to Mold Breaker, and honestly, it doesn't need Crunch. I certainly wouldn't give up that sexy combo of Waterfall / Ice Fang / Earthquake, not for Crunch at least. Priority move? Why the hell does it need one anyways? There are 32 Pokemon (Gyarados included) in A--, A-, A+-, and S-rank that lack priority of use, and see where they are? I hardly count Priority as an argument unless saying a Pokemon is weak to priority. Here's all the priority in A-S rank:
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 48-57 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 84-100 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 76-90 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 54.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 75-89 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- 31% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 136-161 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 61-72 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 33-40 (9.9 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
Here's all that priority, and only one priority stands out: Talonflame, which has 0 business staying in on M-Gyara. I fail to see how Mega Gyarados is not S-Rank.
 
Mega Gyarados is such more than you're making it out to be. It technically has three types, with two varying combos, if that makes sense. You can stay Gyarados as long as you want, so you're Water / Flying until you decide to become a Dark-type, that sounds weird, doesn't it? Basically, Gyarados can come in on say Conkeldurr, and Conkeldurr can try and use Drain Punch expecting the Dark-type change, but you stay Flying, making it a free set up, then you can safely boost / attack until the Pokemon is gone. Finally, you can mega evolve and you've now got a huge threat. Unaware cannot possible beat it thanks to Mold Breaker, and honestly, it doesn't need Crunch. I certainly wouldn't give up that sexy combo of Waterfall / Ice Fang / Earthquake, not for Crunch at least. Priority move? Why the hell does it need one anyways? There are 32 Pokemon (Gyarados included) in A--, A-, A+-, and S-rank that lack priority of use, and see where they are? I hardly count Priority as an argument unless saying a Pokemon is weak to priority. Here's all the priority in A-S rank:
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 48-57 (14.4 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 84-100 (25.3 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 76-90 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 54.8% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 75-89 (22.5 - 26.8%) -- 31% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 219-258 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 136-161 (40.9 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 61-72 (18.3 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 33-40 (9.9 - 12%) -- possible 9HKO
Here's all that priority, and only one priority stands out: Talonflame, which has 0 business staying in on M-Gyara. I fail to see how Mega Gyarados is not S-Rank.
The first part of this seems to be more of an argument for regular Gyarados than his Mega form.

Without priority, Bisharp would be moved down without hesitation. Same for Aegislash and King's Shield. Zard Y needs to be moved down anyway, and Lando/Thundy both have amazing abilities and unique speed tiers. Deo-D is the best hazard stacker out there, and while I don't like him, Deo-S is a really good revenge killer with its stupidly high speed.

Mega Gyarados is really good, no doubt. I just don't feel that he's S worthy, quite.

Edit: is there any reason you failed to include technician Breloom's Mach Punch?

Edit: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 242-283 (72.8 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ice Fang fails to OHKO unboosted. After SR, the OHKO chance of Mach Punch is increased greatly. So.
 
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