Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

[Anty]

Now that my life wound down a bit, time to post :D

my thoughts are similar on Braviary as it has multiple things that set it alongside other birds and away. On bird spam teams it would have to fight against STaraptor mainly as they carry ridiculously similar coverage (Fighting move, Normal typing attacks, Strong Brave Bird) and Staraptor would as it wouldn't need to rely on priority as often, stupid power in Reckless, and its fighting move allows it to keep attacking instead of making it weaker with each use. In a way, Braviary would need to look elsewhere to find its goals, and balanced seems best as its not too fast, fairly bulky, and has nice coverage to abuse with its defiant antics. The one I think I would like would be this:

Braviary
Sheer Force
Life Orb
Brave Nature
252 Atk / 100 Sp Atk / 156 Spd
-Brave Bird
-Extremespeed
-Heat Wave
-Super Power

This, while not defiant, gives it great utility over the other birds as with this set, it can 3HKO Aegislash while not making contact and still hitting with stupid strong damage. He sacrifices the ability to be a defiant check, but basically makes him a little scarier as he really couldn't be accounted for. While this set already really exists for normal Braviary, the threat of a STAB 80 priority move can not be under estimated. I would like to see it in practice, but it may not be its best bet.

The whole point of making braviary viable was to add another good defiant user. Sheer force affects one move, replace heat wave with shadow claw, you dont get an attack drop with kings shield, you can invest your ev'smmore in spe or hp, form a cooler bird core and gives you something to switch into defog.

calcs

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2 4 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Braviary: 415-490 (102.7 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 288-340 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Braviary: 296-350 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Braviary: 348-411 (86.1 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Braviary Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 331-391 (109.6 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (that is nice)

+2 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Scizor: 309-364 (89.8 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (you win then)

+2 252+ Atk Braviary Superpower vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 158-187 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (pls)

Espeed braviary isnt that great, only winning if assuming the opponent doesnt predict the obvious switch. Fur coat aroma is much more meta changing as it gives us a physically defensive fairy (togekiss is meh)

 

[Seiterman]

(This is my first time posting in a thread like this. Bare with me please ;-;)
Stick Web Accelgor: Well, this is sure an interesting thing to start out to. This sounds amazing, but I can see a huge problem with this, and that's Talonflame. Talonflame quad-resits Accelgor's stab, while being able to OHKO it with Brave Bird. Accelgor would HAVE to run a Focus Sash. Even then, Smeargle is much better due to typing, Spore and Stealth Rocks. I can't see this being too viable.

ExtremeSpeed Braviary: Woo. Something worth talking about. A move like this on Braviary would make it possibly the best revenge killer in OU. (The only issue is that the move is Normal type, resisted by a lot.) Not to mention Brave Bird coming from a huge Attack stat like that HURTS. This could possibly make Braviary as potent as Staraptor, due to Sheer Force and the huge priority of ExtremeSpeed. This is the one I want to see the most.

Fur Coat Aromatisee: As Alexwolf said, many physical attackers can easily overpower her. Any Special attacking Poison or Steel types can also do fairyly (heh heh humor) well against her. Aromatisee doesn't have huge firepower, none that I'm aware of, at least. I've never had an issue with one of them. I've kinda just brought out my Talonflame and set up with Bulk Up. Use Furfrou, please. It's much better, IMO.

I disagree with most of this, though I will bare with you here.

Accelgor's viability won't be low just because Talonflame exists, and it's far from the only mon Talonflame can tear up anyway. Accelgor would, in many cases, run a Focus Sash anyway, just to guarantee 2 moves when used as a lead. A comparison with Smeargle is a bit flawed, especially how you put it. Smeargle's typing does basically nothing for it, and Stealth Rock is far from exclusive. If Smeargle is worried about getting SR up, it's probably not getting SW up too. It's also worth remembering that Accelgor still gets Spikes, Encore and Final Gambit, the last of which can even OHKO Talonflame if he gets him while he switches in.

Sheer Force powers up neither Brave Bird or Extremespeed for Braviary, leaving it to only power up coverage moves. It's not overwhelmingly different from Staraptor and Talonflame in how it functions, and while it has merit, I wouldn't go so far as to call it "possibly the best revenge killer in OU." Talonflame still holds that title pretty easily.

As for Aromatisse, thinking that Furfrou is better is just incredibly wrong. Yeah, things can break through Aromatisse, but that number isn't huge (and it's certainly lower than the number of things that can get through Furfrou.) Add to that that Aromatisse can actually heal and support the team with Wish or use Calm Mind to gain offensive presence while beefing up its lower defensive stat and you have a very good Pokemon.

 

[amzaneok]

Fur Coat Aromatisee: As Alexwolf said, many physical attackers can easily overpower her. Any Special attacking Poison or Steel types can also do fairyly (heh heh humor) well against her. Aromatisee doesn't have huge firepower, none that I'm aware of, at least. I've never had an issue with one of them. I've kinda just brought out my Talonflame and set up with Bulk Up. Use Furfrou, please. It's much better, IMO.

Er... Fur Coat Aromatisse out classes Furfrou in, well, every way possible.

 

[Jaroda]

Since I nominated Sticky Web Accelgor, I'll give some of my thoughts. First up is it's favorable match up against Deoxys leads. People seem to not understand exactly how crazy fast 145 Speed is in this game.

252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Deoxys-D: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With a Modest nature you maintain a 389 Spd stat, still faster than Jolly Talonflame and leagues ahead of Greninja and below. Against Deoxys-D that have the inclination to Magic Coat your Sticky Web back, Bug Buzz is a clean 2HKO, and a clean OHKO on Deoxys-S, who if it tries to Psycho Boost on you, or even Fire Punch, Focus Sash keeps you alive and activates Unburden. If the Deoxys-S has a Sash too (it shouldn't, but many people still use it), Unburden guarantees you'll go first unless it's carrying Extreme Speed, which it almost never would if it's a suicide lead.

Sticky Web seemed like a dubious move, and it certainly isn't better than Stealth Rock, but on a competent user like Accelgor who has much more use outside of that move, there are far more means to take advantage of it. Against other leads that feel like setting down their own hazards, Encore is a great move to follow up with, allowing you to U-Turn on their switch to maintain an advantage, use Yawn on the next switch, and of course, Final Gambit. With Sticky Hold it also doesn't fear Trick users, making it all the safer against Trick/Defog Latios for instance. It potentially can also preserve a Chesto Berry from being Knocked Off, allowing you to seize an opportunity to ChestoRest before using Final Gambit, although that isn't reliable.

Played well, thanks to its insane speed, Accelgor should have little difficulty setting Sticky Web, in addition to being a annoying scout with U-Turn and Yawn/Encore, or destroying a wall with Final Gambit. With a competent user of Sticky Web it would surely impact the metagame with bulky offense being more viable. Accelgor pairs extremely well with Bisharp as a Defog blocker, who would LOVE Sticky Web support, or the Defiant boost, either-or.

 

[Red Cat]

Since I nominated Sticky Web Accelgor, I'll give some of my thoughts. First up is it's favorable match up against Deoxys leads. People seem to not understand exactly how crazy fast 145 Speed is in this game.

252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Deoxys-D: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With a Modest nature you maintain a 389 Spd stat, still faster than Jolly Talonflame and leagues ahead of Greninja and below. Against Deoxys-D that have the inclination to Magic Coat your Sticky Web back, Bug Buzz is a clean 2HKO, and a clean OHKO on Deoxys-S, who if it tries to Psycho Boost on you, or even Fire Punch, Focus Sash keeps you alive and activates Unburden. If the Deoxys-S has a Sash too (it shouldn't, but many people still use it), Unburden guarantees you'll go first unless it's carrying Extreme Speed, which it almost never would if it's a suicide lead.

Sticky Web seemed like a dubious move, and it certainly isn't better than Stealth Rock, but on a competent user like Accelgor who has much more use outside of that move, there are far more means to take advantage of it. Against other leads that feel like setting down their own hazards, Encore is a great move to follow up with, allowing you to U-Turn on their switch to maintain an advantage, use Yawn on the next switch, and of course, Final Gambit. With Sticky Hold it also doesn't fear Trick users, making it all the safer against Trick/Defog Latios for instance. It potentially can also preserve a Chesto Berry from being Knocked Off, allowing you to seize an opportunity to ChestoRest before using Final Gambit, although that isn't reliable.

Played well, thanks to its insane speed, Accelgor should have little difficulty setting Sticky Web, in addition to being a annoying scout with U-Turn and Yawn/Encore, or destroying a wall with Final Gambit. With a competent user of Sticky Web it would surely impact the metagame with bulky offense being more viable. Accelgor pairs extremely well with Bisharp as a Defog blocker, who would LOVE Sticky Web support, or the Defiant boost, either-or.

While Accelgor has some good options to work with, it has 4MSS. I assume its best set would include Sticky Web, Encore, Bug Buzz, and either U-turn, Yawn, or Final Gambit. It is going to have issues no matter what it picks for the last slot. If it picks U-turn, it has no way to deal with anything which resists Bug type attacks. If it picks Yawn, it can't maintain momentum as well, and if it picks Final Gambit, then it has issues balancing out the speed it needs to outrun key threats, the SpA it needs to make Bug Buzz do significant damage, and the HP it needs to make Final Gambit work well. Also, Bug Buzz has less than 1% chance of 2HKOing specially defensive Deoxys-D, so if Accelgor attacks, it will get forced out by Red Card while Deo-D has more than 50% health left and gets up a layer of hazards. If Accelgor goes for Sticky Web, Deo-D can Taunt and likely get two layers of damaging hazards down in return for Accelgor's Sticky Web which is generally a good trade-off for the opponent since many Pokemon are not affected by Sticky Web or just don't care about its effect (or benefit from it in the case of Bisharp). When it comes to hazard leads, bulky (like Deo-D and Shuckle) is generally better than fast and frail which is why I don't think Accelgor will be that good even with Sticky Web.

 

[Jaroda]

I'm not saying Accelgor will be the thing to watch out for, as it's purpose is as niche as picking Politoed. You're either going to make a team around Sticky Web like you would Rain or you won't. But specialized doesn't mean nonviable, and the question is, for his intended role (specified hazard setter/annoyer/suicide) can he perform it relatively consistently and better than most? The answer would, in that case, be yes (until/unless the meta shifts to a point where it becomes relevant to prepare for him).

And there are many good pokemon that do well against flying spam and faster levitators. (Mega)Tyranitar benefits greatly from slow ground based enemies and is particularly great against Latios and Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir still receives the speed drop if it didn't Megavolve before Sticky Web was put down, meaning anything that can handle his Quick Attack and OHKO back can handle him. Would-be checks to a sweeping Charizard-X or Mega Pinsir like scarf Excadrill or scarf Garchomp become ineffective. Wallbreakers like SD Haxorus, Kyurem-B, and Darmanitan become much more threatening, and normally fast yet frail HO attackers like Keldeo, Terrakion and Greninja become a liability. And again, Bisharp is one of the best pokemon to abuse Sticky Web while simultaneously blocking Defog with Defiant.

Accelgor can help provide this benefit on a relatively consistent basis and not become dead weight afterwards or give you essentially a 5v6 team. Sticky Web would certainly make him around B tier if you ask me, in theory of course.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not saying Accelgor will be the thing to watch out for, as it's purpose is as niche as picking Politoed. You're either going to make a team around Sticky Web like you would Rain or you won't. But specialized doesn't mean nonviable, and the question is, for his intended role (specified hazard setter/annoyer/suicide) can he perform it relatively consistently and better than most? The answer would, in that case, be yes (until/unless the meta shifts to a point where it becomes relevant to prepare for him).

And there are many good pokemon that do well against flying spam and faster levitators. (Mega)Tyranitar benefits greatly from slow ground based enemies and is particularly great against Latios and Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir still receives the speed drop if it didn't Megavolve before Sticky Web was put down, meaning anything that can handle his Quick Attack and OHKO back can handle him. Would-be checks to a sweeping Charizard-X or Mega Pinsir like scarf Excadrill or scarf Garchomp become ineffective. Wallbreakers like SD Haxorus, Kyurem-B, and Darmanitan become much more threatening, and normally fast yet frail HO attackers like Keldeo, Terrakion and Greninja become a liability. And again, Bisharp is one of the best pokemon to abuse Sticky Web while simultaneously blocking Defog with Defiant.

Accelgor can help provide this benefit on a relatively consistent basis and not become dead weight afterwards or give you essentially a 5v6 team. Sticky Web would certainly make him around B tier if you ask me, in theory of course.

Sticky Web Accelgor is viable, but not that good. No SW user is higher than B- for a reason. It is a decent move, but all of its users are terrible otherwise. I would argue that Shuckle and Smeargle are better SW users since Shuckle is bulky, gets SR, and gets to run Mental Herb to protect against Taunt and Encore, and Smeargle gets Spore, SR, and any other move it wants to have. Accelgor isn't going to go from unranked to B rank just by getting Sticky Web just like neither Shuckle nor Smeargle made it to B rank by getting the move.

Even if Accelgor were good enough to be B rank, Braviary and Aromatisse would make it to at least B+ rank if not in the A's with their buffs. That is why I am not a huge fan of Accelgor. It is only the third most viable Theorymon on the slate.

 

[Jaroda]

That's kind of my point. Sticky Web is a pretty good hazard, but the users up until now are pretty lack luster if not horrible, which is why better users need to be introduced. I mean, if Deo-D could learn Sticky Web you'd better believe it'd be a bigger issue. I nominated Accelgor for the move for the flavor (ninja Bug that lays traps, I mean, c'mon), and that he is unique and viable enough to make the move more commonplace and thus more likely to have a bigger impact on the meta, which is I think one of the goals of this project. Sure, in a vacuum Aromatisse and Braviary would certainly be stronger than Accelgor, but as to which would impact the whole game more, that's debatable. And that's where we would cast our votes.

 

[Red Cat]

That's kind of my point. Sticky Web is a pretty good hazard, but the users up until now are pretty lack luster if not horrible, which is why better users need to be introduced.

I think Accelgor falls into the lack luster category. Unfortunately, Bug types suck in general, so it is hard to find a potential good Sticky Web user. Scizor and Heracross are too good to give SW to them for this project. As I mentioned before, Forretress might have the bulk and additional utility (SR and Rapid Spin) to make it work. Every other Bug type is just dead weight outside of Sticky Web. Unfortunately, all Accelgor has going for it with the buff is to set up Sticky Web, which is something that already can be done with Smeargle and Shuckle. Accelgor is not an offensive threat (outside of Final Gambit which is a suicide move which requires Accelgor to be at full health) and it definitely does not have the bulk to stop anything. What will usually happen is that Accelgor will lead, set up Sticky Web while being brought down to its sash, and then Final Gambit will be nearly useless. The opponent can then clear Sticky Web later with Defog. A good SW user has to be bulky enough to use it several times to avoid losing the hazard for good if the opponent spins or Defogs, or it has to have an offensive presence to avoid being dead weight. Accelgor does neither of these.

 

[Valmanway]

I think Accelgor falls into the lack luster category. Unfortunately, Bug types suck in general, so it is hard to find a potential good Sticky Web user. Scizor and Heracross are too good to give SW to them for this project. As I mentioned before, Forretress might have the bulk and additional utility (SR and Rapid Spin) to make it work. Every other Bug type is just dead weight outside of Sticky Web. Unfortunately, all Accelgor has going for it with the buff is to set up Sticky Web, which is something that already can be done with Smeargle and Shuckle. Accelgor is not an offensive threat (outside of Final Gambit which is a suicide move which requires Accelgor to be at full health) and it definitely does not have the bulk to stop anything. What will usually happen is that Accelgor will lead, set up Sticky Web while being brought down to its sash, and then Final Gambit will be nearly useless. The opponent can then clear Sticky Web later with Defog. A good SW user has to be bulky enough to use it several times to avoid losing the hazard for good if the opponent spins or Defogs, or it has to have an offensive presence to avoid being dead weight. Accelgor does neither of these.

It's too bad Shuckle's in B rank, otherwise I would have said giving him Heal Order or some other recovery move could have maybe worked.

 

[-Flygon-]

It's too bad Shuckle's in B rank, otherwise I would have said giving him Heal Order or some other recovery move could have maybe worked.

You scare me, a Shuckle with recovery? That's nightmare fuel dude. O_O

Anyway, I agree that Accelgor is lackluster. It's similar to Gale Wings Salamence, which sounds good on paper, but lackluster compared to it's brethren. Talonflame is better with Gale Wings, Smeargle/Galvantula are better with SW, simple as that. That's just my opinion though, it'd be interesting to see it in action.

 

[Der Richter]

The major complaint about Galvantula, usually, is that is considered dead weight after having placed SW. Now, I don't see what would have Accelgor as an advantage, besided major speed (like if Galvantula was slow), and Spikes. They're both fast, and prankster Taunt bait, so there isn't that big of a difference in laying SW.
For me, I'd rather stick to the spider, has usable Spa and Coumpound Eyes Thunder, witch prevents immediate switch in from Mandibuzz, Bug Buzz for Lati@s, and both for Starmie (and eventually HP Ice for Donphan. Sadly after the debuff of HP is difficult to get a 2HKO, but if well played, isn't impossibile to prevent Rapid Spin). I mean, come on.

 

[Wooper215]

I haven't seen Alexwolf on main, so idk how to submit a Theorymon...

But Truant Regigigas? Not too powerful, but it can act as a more bulky version of Slaking..

 

[Der Richter]

I haven't seen Alexwolf on main, so idk how to submit a Theorymon...

But Truant Regigigas? Not too powerful, but it can act as a more bulky version of Slaking..

You shold send him pms for this.
And by the way, I see the point of not giving Regigigas something broken, but swapping from one of the worst abilities to another? That's sadistic, lol.

 

[alexwolf]

The selling point of Accelgor is Final Gambit from a blazing Speed stat. This means that Accelgor has a pretty reliable way of stopping Defog and Rapid Spin users once, which often is all that offensive teams need to start getting enough momentum to put the opponent on his back.

Anyway, let's get to the voting guys. Send a PM to Salemance with your vote, and you have 24 hours to vote.

 

[Der Richter]

Yeah, I see, but I still find it not all that reliable, especially considering this is the priority gen.

BTW, just voted, can't wait to see what comes next.

 

[Gerard]

The major complaint about Galvantula, usually, is that is considered dead weight after having placed SW. Now, I don't see what would have Accelgor as an advantage, besided major speed (like if Galvantula was slow), and Spikes. They're both fast, and prankster Taunt bait, so there isn't that big of a difference in laying SW.
For me, I'd rather stick to the spider, has usable Spa and Coumpound Eyes Thunder, witch prevents immediate switch in from Mandibuzz, Bug Buzz for Lati@s, and both for Starmie (and eventually HP Ice for Donphan. Sadly after the debuff of HP is difficult to get a 2HKO, but if well played, isn't impossibile to prevent Rapid Spin). I mean, come on.

STAB Bug Buzz hits harder than SE Hp Ice (And Galvantula gets Energy Ball/Giga Drain)

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

STAB Bug Buzz hits harder than SE Hp Ice (And Galvantula gets Energy Ball/Giga Drain)

Not on the intended targets for HP Ice, not saying it's a good move for Galvantula but still.

 

[Der Richter]

Not on the intended targets for HP Ice, not saying it's a good move for Galvantula but still.

Exactly, Donphan is an example talking about spinners and defogers, but hp ice serves mainly to hit x4 weak targets, that are much more common than Donphan.

 

[Gerard]

The major complaint about Galvantula, usually, is that is considered dead weight after having placed SW. Now, I don't see what would have Accelgor as an advantage, besided major speed (like if Galvantula was slow), and Spikes. They're both fast, and prankster Taunt bait, so there isn't that big of a difference in laying SW.
For me, I'd rather stick to the spider, has usable Spa and Coumpound Eyes Thunder, witch prevents immediate switch in from Mandibuzz, Bug Buzz for Lati@s, and both for Starmie (and eventually HP Ice for Donphan. Sadly after the debuff of HP is difficult to get a 2HKO, but if well played, isn't impossibile to prevent Rapid Spin). I mean, come on.

It specifically says Donphan, Hp Ice would be good for stuff like Gliscor or Landorus though (Dragonite doesn't enjoy the 30% change of para)

 

[Der Richter]

As I already said, I was talking about defog users and spinners. None of who you mentioned is one. Besides this, I realize that Bug Buzz against Donphan is more efficient, just didn't think about it when I posted.

252 SpA Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 181-214 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Galvantula Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 162-192 (42.1 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, yeah, peace. Let's move on.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

There's also the issue of donphan's irrelevance in OU right now.

 

[Salemance]

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED!

Just to say, we actually have our first shut out when it comes to voting...poor Starmie.

Regenerator Starmie: 0 (ouch)
Sticky Web Accelgor: 2
Fur Coat Aromatisse: 9
Extremespeed Braviary: 13

So our winner is Braviary + Extremespeed!!


Still, that Starmie though.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

VOTING IS NOW CLOSED!

Just to say, we actually have our first shut out when it comes to voting...poor Starmie.

Regenerator Starmie: 0 (ouch)
Sticky Web Accelgor: 2
Fur Coat Aromatisse: 9
Extremespeed Braviary: 13

So our winner is Braviary + Extremespeed!!


Still, that Starmie though.

Couldn't be less surprised about Starmie. We had a great slate this round and Regenerator Starmie isn't even that great competitively. It's more of just a flavour thing

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Couldn't be less surprised about Starmie. We had a great slate this round and Regenerator Starmie isn't even that great competitively. It's more of just a flavour thing

I'm honestly disappointed by it. Starmie's a severely underrated option this gen, as it's decidedly inferior to greninja and excadrill in its respective rolls, but it's still really good and wouldn't need that much of a buff to get up there with excadrill and lati@s for the best hazard controller, it'd just probably have to be an offensive one, which probably won't happen.

Maybe if Starmie had protean. . .