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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Does it have a niche? Yes.
Does it have a useful niche? Yes.
Can it more often than not perform this niche? Yes.
Does it need intense support? No.
Some support? Yes.
Does it receive competition for its niche? Yes and no.
Does it have perks over its competition? Absolutely.
Does it come with surprise factor? Absolutely.

I've been using it a lot lately, and it's been performing very well. Its benefits over its competition are apparent to me, and it never fails to do its job, as long as you know what it can handle. To me, it's a perfect fit for a C+ rank.

I can fill in the blanks, if necessary, but I'm pretty sure everyone can see where I'm coming from.

While that may be true for you for me it went more like this:
Does it have a useful niche? I guess yes
Can it more often than not perform this niche? Not always but sometimes
Does it need intense support? Not really
Some support? Yes
Does it receive competition for its niche? Yes definetly
Does it have perks over its competition? A few small ones
Does it come with surprise factor? Yes but after the opponent finds it out it lost this trait
 
An interesting fact: most of the common walls and defensive pokemon of OU are in A-. Chansey, Mandibuzz, Latias, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Zapdos. Basically everything that is considered good enough for the A ranks, but lacks offensive presence, is on A-. Venusaur is also being argued for A- lately. The only wall that are higher are Hippo (which I suspect it is because of the Hippo+Excadrill combo, which is amazing on offensive teams) and Heatran, who has viable offensive sets.

Is it just me, or is there an unspoken rule saying that nothing can be higher than A- if they are not usable in HO?
 
Many of those pokemon are very usable in HO as pivots (Rotom-W, Zapdos) and entry hazards/screen/Defog support to open the doors for a sweep (Latias, Mandibuzz, Skarmory).
But they can also become set-up fodders against a variety of teams, not just HO. Balance/bulky offense usually carries Kyu-B and Aegislash, who single-handedly beat most of them.
They're also complete set-up baits for BP chains, so until they get nerfed running them is rather risky.
 
Well me and other people mentioned being a revenge killing Fairy type is it´s only niche as the defensive sets are kind of bad and Calm Mind is done better by Mega Gardevoir. As for the calc I thought I used Modest but it changed or I am just dumb. As for Gardevoir and Mega Alakazam being similar is because they are both Psychic type with high special attack, both despising priority moves and both have Trace as their main selling point. Gardevoir can't fill multiple roles either without being horribly outclassed by Clefable or Sylveon.
Yes, but there's multiple purposes Gardevoir does and it's indeed outclassed in almost all of those. Alakazam and especially Mega Alakazam indeed do better as offensive Psychic-types, while Clefable and to an extent Sylveon are defensively better. All of these Pokémon dislike priority, especially since Bullet Punch is all over the fucking place thanks to Mega Scizor, while Gardy and Mega Zam don't like Shadow Sneak.
Gardevoir's not the only one suffering from these problems, but beyond its susceptibility it's outclassed in most of its roles anyway, which befits the definition of C-Rank. I think C is just good for Gardevoir.
 
Alright, now lets address the Garchomp to S tier discussion. Just because a Pokemon is versatile and powerful does not make it an S-Tier mon, it has to both be able to dominate the tier with little support thanks to it's versatility/strength and be able to actually abuse that unpredictability to push for a massive advantage while not taking away from it's performance. Aegislash for example, can gimp that incoming Hippowdon with a Subtoxic set, or hit that Heatran on the switch-in with a Sacred Sword, while still being able to check those Azumarills, Latiis, Terrakions, or whatever else you need it to. Sure you can go ahead and surprise a few foes by giving Garchomp a Focus Sash or Yache Berry or whatever, but not only are you changing what can beat Garchomp, you're also impairing it's chances of beating an Aegislash or Talonflame. Also, Garchomp's versatility is perhaps a bit misleading, as a number of it's sets, especially the offensive SD and Offensive Stealth Rock sets look strikingly similar and can be checked by the same things. Can Garchomp fill many roles? Absolutely! But that versatility doesn't enhance it's performance as much as it would for an Aegislash or Charizard X.

Perhaps the more important reason for not putting Garchomp into S-Tier is that it just doesn't impact a game the same way as the group currently in S-Tier, even with the proper team support. I think we can all agree that Aegislash and Charizard X can rip a team apart with very little support from teammates and every team (that doesn't suck) requires multiple protocols for dealing with them, they make the opponent play drastically differently and Garchomp can't impact a game the same way. Deoxys-D single handedly carries heavy offense/hyper offense, when that thing comes in, both players immediately change the way they approach the game. I think we can unanimously agree that these 3 are on a different level from Garchomp. Thundurus is a more effective offensive threat than Garchomp simply due to the fact that they're sandwiched inbetween by the likes of Keldeo, Gengar, Latios etc for Speed. While Garchomp has utility with Stealth Rock, Toxic, etc, Thundurus's Prankster Thunder Wave is arguably the most clutch move in the entire game, a panic button that Garchomp can never hope to match. Landorus-I has far better coverage and power than Garchomp could ever hope for, and can play around it's checks by simply swapping out a move for Knock Off or U-turn, while Garchomp needs to gimp itself with a Yache Berry or something to play around it's checks. The fact that it takes no recoil from Life Orb allows it to further the gap in power between the two, and any advantage Garchomp has in power with Swords Dance, Landorus can answer with Calm Mind, and Lando can also set up Stealth Rock to boot. Finally we have Deoxys-S, who straight up outclasses Garchomp as a revenge killer and doesn't get itself locked into Choiced Dragon or Ground moves, which really really sucks sometimes. It just so happens to have Garchomp on it's "revenge killable" list to add insult to injury. Deo-S also offers Stealth Rock (and Spikes if for whatever reason you really hate Deo-D), so Garchomp can't get a win in terms of utility here either.

One other problem with the pro S-Tier arguments is that Garchomp advocates seem to have gotten the idea that it has excellent Speed stuck in their heads. Um, I dunno if you guys noticed, but 4th Gen was 5 years ago. 102 Speed is just "good", nothing more. A number of very relevant and very prevalent Pokes such as Thundurus, Greninja, Keldeo, the Latiis, Terrakion, Pinsir, and Gengar all have the Speed advantage. Don't get me wrong Garchomp is an excellent Pokemon and belongs in A+, but if we're going to lower the standards for an S Tier mon to Garchomp, then the likes of Keldeo, Mawile, Excadrill etc could lay a legitimate claim to S Tier status as well, which they're not.
 
An interesting fact: most of the common walls and defensive pokemon of OU are in A-. Chansey, Mandibuzz, Latias, Rotom-W, Skarmory, Zapdos. Basically everything that is considered good enough for the A ranks, but lacks offensive presence, is on A-. Venusaur is also being argued for A- lately. The only wall that are higher are Hippo (which I suspect it is because of the Hippo+Excadrill combo, which is amazing on offensive teams) and Heatran, who has viable offensive sets.

Is it just me, or is there an unspoken rule saying that nothing can be higher than A- if they are not usable in HO?

Obviously it is, pretty much the whole discussion here is fixated on HO. The S Rank basicly consists of only HO stables, above A- are mostly offensive mons/stuff thats good on HO and in pretty much every discussion about every pokemon thats made here people mostly argue from a HO perspektive i.e. the revengekilling crap about wallbreakers, Zard Y was demoted because it can be forced out by lots of stuff thats mostly seen on HO. That balance and stall teams lacking Chansey have a hard time finding switch ins is of no concern. If a pokemon cant be used on HO it wont get anyway near S in this topic. Nobody cares about balance and even stall seems more like a side note. Imo the viability ranking as it is right now is of little use to anyone who doesnt play HO.
 
Obviously it is, pretty much the whole discussion here is fixated on HO. The S Rank basicly consists of only HO stables, above A- are mostly offensive mons/stuff thats good on HO and in pretty much every discussion about every pokemon thats made here people mostly argue from a HO perspektive i.e. the revengekilling crap about wallbreakers, Zard Y was demoted because it can be forced out by lots of stuff thats mostly seen on HO. That balance and stall teams lacking Chansey have a hard time finding switch ins is of no concern. If a pokemon cant be used on HO it wont get anyway near S in this topic. Nobody cares about balance and even stall seems more like a side note. Imo the viability ranking as it is right now is of little use to anyone who doesnt play HO.
Between Knock Off, the Steel nerf, and the Defog buff, Stall got the short end of the stick this gen.
Knock Off punishes Stall by removing Lefties, making switching in to take hits harder and forces you to heal more.
The Steel nerf makes it harder for Steels like Skarmory to be catch-all walls/tanks like last gen.
Stall has no way of punishing or stopping Defog like HO has in Thundurus and Bisharp so keeping Hazards up is much more difficult, especially when they don't have any offensive pressure to fall back on.
 
Obviously it is, pretty much the whole discussion here is fixated on HO. The S Rank basicly consists of only HO stables, above A- are mostly offensive mons/stuff thats good on HO and in pretty much every discussion about every pokemon thats made here people mostly argue from a HO perspektive i.e. the revengekilling crap about wallbreakers, Zard Y was demoted because it can be forced out by lots of stuff thats mostly seen on HO. That balance and stall teams lacking Chansey have a hard time finding switch ins is of no concern. If a pokemon cant be used on HO it wont get anyway near S in this topic. Nobody cares about balance and even stall seems more like a side note. Imo the viability ranking as it is right now is of little use to anyone who doesnt play HO.

Okay. So much of this is wrong and ignorant to the nature of the metagame. The ranking isn't meant to be biased towards HO, its just a reflection of the current meta. If the best Pokemon in the tier are common HO members, why shouldn't they be ranked higher? It's not like the pokemon in S-rank are only used on HO, they can all be used on Balance or even stall for that matter. Zard X can be used on every playstyle including stall due to the WoW set. Landorus is found a lot on Balance because balance usually fares pretty poorly against stall and Landorus helps with that. Thundurus can beat just about every playstyle barring stall and its general versatility keeps it in S-rank. Both Deoxys can be use used on balance and are unmatched at their roles. Aegislash is Aegislash abd it manages to adapt to the meta faster than it can adapt to it.

I explained several times that Zard Y wasn't moved down because it is checked by common HO Pokemons but rather that its general effectiveness relies heavily on the Defog/spinning supports and trapping support. Without those Zard Y literally will get walled for the entire game and won't be of good use. Unlike Zard Y, Landorus can beat its "counters" with the appropriate moveset. Knock Off will beat the Latis and Chansey on the switch and CM allows it to beat Mandibuzz and Zapdos. The most reliable counter to Landorus is CbbNite because regardless of the set Dragonite can switch in and beat it 1v1 and doesn't fear being pursuited but Bisharp, Tyranitar, or Aegislash. There is a reason that Zard Y is always paired with Bisharp/Tyranitar/Aegislash otherwise the Latis and Chansey are able to wall it for days. The unpredictability argument only goes so far and can't be people's only crutch to keeping S-rank. The reason Zard X stayed in S-rank is because it's much more self-sufficient and the metagame is still struggling to fully adapt to it.

Now onto your point on Chansey, stall and balance. Chansey is never seen on balance team, so I'm sure why you mentioned it. Chansey, despite being the face of stall, is actually pretty easy to take advantage. Considering some of the most recent metagame trends such as Taunt WoW Gengar hurt Chansey and stall's viability as a whole. Things like Bisharp + Landorus makes stall more difficult to play because Bisharp can come in on Chansey and pursuit it every time. And since Chansey can't afford to stay in and thus and forced to switch out just pressures it and wears is down to the point where it can't check/counter Landorus/Zard Y. A perfect example of this is Cbb vs TewMew from Tour a few weeks ago. Stall, at the moment just isn't as effective as it was not too long ago. It's very cookie cutter and not very malleable. The meta has adapted to the point where it's easily exploitable and easy to pick apart. Taunt WoW Gengar, Landorus, Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Mega Gyarados and even Clefable can all beat stall and are all every common in this meta. It's not that we're ignoring Balance and Stall but they aren't nearly as effective in the current metagame. Balance is very good when built and played correctly but making a good balance team isn't really an easy task.

Bottom line: Stall is very exploitable and can be taken advantage of to the point where it's become increasingly harder to play. It's not bias, its a reflection of the current meta. Believe me, when the metagame changes, the rankings will change to reflect it. Ranking things higher than they should be for the sake of not trying to be biased defeats the entire purpose of ranking by viability and we should just be ranking Pokemon based on preference rather than what the meta is dictating.

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On a side note, I updated the OP of thread to reflect the one in VR with links to the analyses.
 
I don't know what's more sad. The fact that someone thought Clefable was A- at best because of base stats or the fact that people are actually defending that ridiculous argument. Rotosect , I like how you try to justify other Pokemon's low base stats by throwing in "modified stats" for the likes of Azumarill and Crawdaunt and ignore the fact that Clefable's "modified stats" basically scale with the opposing Pokemon's boosts, would you like to calculate what his base stats would resemble if he were facing, say, a Belly Drum or Shell Smash user? Also with regards to his struggles against wallbreakers, to put it bluntly, you'd have to be mentally challenged to use Clefable to deal with wallbreakers. That's not what Unaware users are for, their main draw is that they shut down set-up sweepers, and that's how they should be used. The reason why the Quagsire+Clefable+Chansey core is the best defensive core in OU by a light-year is because Quaggy is a blanket check to most of the physical set-up sweepers, while Clef does the same to most special set-up sweepers. Clefable is the biggest reason why special boosters such as Manaphy and Volcarona can't see the light of day. Clefable's typing also allows it to shut down some very powerful physical attackers as well, such as Garchomp and Dragonite.

I don't know what's more sad, the fact Clefable gets a free pass from criticism or the fact I rarely lose to Clefable unlike the other A+ threats. It's great but not wow. I sense a double standard. Since when was 95/73/90 defenses ever considered amazing? Clefable has only 3 resistances, so great it suddenly resists fighting! It cannot switch in to hyper offensive and does not absorb strong neutral hits well. If it's really an A+ Pokemon then I should not ever have to watch my opponent sacking Clefable while it destroy it in two turns. Chansey is A-. Skarmory is A-. Quagsire is B+ (perfect ranking). Clefable belongs with them.

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So as far as I'm concerned, Clefable does not counter offensive dragons and cannot hit back hard enough. It's taunt bait and does not pose as an offensive threat on the first couple of turns. Not A+ material.
 
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I don't know what's more sad, the fact Clefable gets a free pass from criticism or the fact I rarely lose to Clefable unlike the other A+ threats. It's great but not wow. I sense a double standard. Since when was 95/70/95 defenses ever considered amazing? Clefable has only 3 resistances. It cannot switch in to hyper offensive and does not absorb strong neutral hits well. If it's really an A+ Pokemon then I should not ever have to watch my opponent sacking Clefable while it destroy it in two turns. Chansey is A-. Skarmory is A-. Clefable belongs with them.

252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So as far as I'm concerned, Clefable does not counter offensive dragon and cannot hit back hard enough. It's taunt bait and does not pose as an offensive threat on the first couple of turns. Not A+ material.
Sigh, so the gist of my post was to explain that Clefable isn't meant to check wallbreakers and is meant to be used against set-up sweepers. So you respond by grasping at straws with a couple wallbreaker calcs. Also, part of your reasoning for Clefable being A- is that it doesn't pose as an offensive threat on the first couple turns? Err? I'm pretty sure that applies for most walls as well, the fact that Clefable is even competent offensively is what puts it over the other walls in OU. As for offensive dragons:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.6 - 43.5%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 224-266 (62.5 - 74.3%)

252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 107-127 (27.2 - 32.3%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 99-117 (30.5 - 36.1%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 198-234 (61.1 - 72.2%)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 182-216 (60.2 - 71.5%)

Looks like he does just fine against a number of offensive dragons. Only LO Iron Head Kyu-B and Zard X have a chance of winning.

Also LOL @ CB Garchomp.
 
In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Now that I think of it, if Clefable could learn Baton Pass, it would be A+ material. No seriously! There's another Pokemon that can do Baton Pass and just about everything Clefable can do from rocks to screens to status to offensive: Mew. Somehow Mew being so incredibly versatile and having superior movepool and stats to Clefable only gets a B rank. I'm calling double standard!
 
Clefable also isn't just ranked for its utility on stall, but also against stall and also for it support for more offensive teams. It can fill quite a lot of roles.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/clefable.3495107/

I mean really, shit's crazy.

In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Now that I think of it, if Clefable could learn Baton Pass, it would be A+ material. No seriously! There's another Pokemon that can do just about everything Clefable can do from rocks to screens to status to offensive: Mew. Somehow Mew being so incredibly versatile and having superior stats to Clefable only gets a B rank. I'm calling double standard!

Mew does not have Unaware or Magic Guard.

Also Psychic is a really really bad typing.
 
In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Now that I think of it, if Clefable could learn Baton Pass, it would be A+ material. No seriously! There's another Pokemon that can do Baton Pass and just about everything Clefable can do from rocks to screens to status to offensive: Mew. Somehow Mew being so incredibly versatile and having superior movepool and stats to Clefable only gets a B rank. I'm calling double standard!
A super effective Iron Head barely out-damages a neutral STAB Earthquake from Garchomp and wastes one of your moveslots, especially when all Garchomps need to run Dragon STAB + Earthquake + Stone Edge.

Kyurem-B is usually better off running Sub + 3 Attacks, which doesn't include Iron Head since it offers shit coverage compared to Fusion Bolt and Earth Power.
 
In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Now that I think of it, if Clefable could learn Baton Pass, it would be A+ material. No seriously! There's another Pokemon that can do Baton Pass and just about everything Clefable can do from rocks to screens to status to offensive: Mew. Somehow Mew being so incredibly versatile and having superior movepool and stats to Clefable only gets a B rank. I'm calling double standard!

Theres many reasons why mew is merely B. It has pretty bad typing first off, only resisting psychic and fighting and weak to ghost, dark, and bug which all have pretty threatening offensive pokes in ou. Also the ability synchronize doesn't help all the much, when u compare this to magic guard on clefable which lets it last 5ever and ruin stuff like stall or unaware which ruins set up sweepers u can understand how clefable is the higher rank.
 
In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Now that I think of it, if Clefable could learn Baton Pass, it would be A+ material. No seriously! There's another Pokemon that can do Baton Pass and just about everything Clefable can do from rocks to screens to status to offensive: Mew. Somehow Mew being so incredibly versatile and having superior movepool and stats to Clefable only gets a B rank. I'm calling double standard!

Ok, I'm sorry, I cannot take you seriously if you think Clefable is B Rank. It has a 10/10 typing and 10/10 abilities, Unaware and Calm Mind. Clefable one of, if not the most, versatile Pokemon in the tier. It has a variety of sets such as Unaware Calm Mind, Magic Guard Calm Mind, Life Orb attacker, Cosmic Power, Calm Mind, Defensive, and a ton more honestly. It has a super fucking large movepool as well. Clefable is certainly deserving of A+ Rank status because of movepool, typing, abilities, and versatility. If you think it's anything less than A+ then you're not playing it right, and all the way to B is as insane as saying that a fish isn't good because it can't breathe on land. You might be playing random Clefable with Belly Drum or other random crap like that, but if you have truly experienced playing it and fighting it, you'll see how good it truly is.
 
Subject 18 post is legit gold, and anyone who for some reason doubts the legitimacy of the rankings need to all be redirected to that post.

Seriously guys, the rankings themselves have absolutely nothing to do with bias. It is a DIRECT reflection of the OU metagame itself, not what the best HO players think is best. No offense, but if any of you still don't think HO or offense in general is the best playstyle at the moment, then I highly doubt you play the metagame enough to support your opinion. There's a reason why offense was so common in tour and SPL. Deoxys-D isn't S rank simply because it's the best hazard setter or because it's standard on HO, it's S rank because HO is one of the most effective playstyles in the metagame, and Deo-D basically makes it 10x more threatening and dangerous. It's bulky enough that it can pretty much live any hit or outspeed most things that could potentially OHKO it, so unlike Deo-S is doesn't have to depend so much on its Sash to get up a layer. With a Mental Herb, most Taunt users end up becoming complete set up fodder for it, allowing it to get off several layers. When paired with Bisharp, it becomes even more of a threat, because opposing teams with Defog are pressured heavily by its partner in crime, thus preventing them from getting rid of hazards as quickly as they might want to. It's just so easy to slap on offensive teams (again, the most effective teams) and it will almost always accomplish what it sets out to do, while giving its teammates a ton of support. That's the DEFINITION of an S-rank threat, and it's never going to move down lower than S unless somehow the meta shifts away from favoring it so much.

Now look at Chansey. It's one of the most defining features of stall, much like how Deo-D is pretty much the face of HO. Now you could say offense itself, is an S rank playstyle. Stall itself, while effective and sometimes a huge pain to break through, is arguably a less effective playstyle, simply because it is basically man handled by a lot of Pokemon used on offense, such as Landorus, Gengar, Bisharp, LO Deo-S with Knock Off can be a huge pain at times, and Mega Gyarados, and it's almost impossible to cover certain Pokemon just because they're so threatening. Chansey is also pretty much niche to stall, and I don't really understand why some people say it's good on balanced, because on in all honesty I've yet to see a really good balance team with Chansey. If balance wants a cleric, it almost always prefers Clefable, simply because of its better defensive typing, abilities, offensive potential, and versatility, something that Chansey doesn't possess. Chansey itself ALSO has flaws, because it can be overwhelmed and crippled by many of the Pokemon on, big surprise, offense.

So if stall was indeed the best playstyle, Chansey and friends would be ranked MUCH higher, but unfortunately that's not the case, offense in general is just so much better because it has so much to work with, which makes it very hard for stall to cover it. I'm not ranking something higher just because it makes a playstyle viable. Why do you think we dropped Politoed down from A- rank? Rain itself can be very threatening, but compared to all the other playstyles, even stall, it struggles, and Politoed itself, much like Chansey, has other issues. I'm not saying defensive Pokemon can't be ranked high, because that's definitely not the case (see Mega Venusaur and Clefable) but because defensive playstyles in general are hurting right now due to the massive abundance of offense, defensive Pokemon wont be ranked as high unless they have many other features about them that make them less niche and easier to fit onto other playstyles. Going back to Clefable again, that thing can fit on bulky offense, stall, balance, and I've even seen it used successfully on more fast paced offensive teams, mostly for its ability to stop opposing HO sweepers dead in their tracks with Unaware and begin boosting on them. It can stand up against the powerhouses found in the upper ranks.

So yes, this thread tends to rank offensive Pokemon higher on the list because offense is unarguably the best playstyle at the moment. Offense is very dominant, while stall is viable but is struggling to make nearly as much of an impact in the meta as offense, which is why stall niche Pokemon tend to be ranked lower.
 
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After reading Subject 18's and Gary2346's posts a question came into my head, which was: Is it legit to rank playstyles? For example, HO is the most effective playstyle because of all the amazing choices for Pokemon that can be used in an HO team. Therefore, at least for this gen, HO could be considered the "S rank" playstyle. Stall, although it got new tools such as Mega-Venusaur, fails to wall a variety of powerful wallbreakers in OU, making it good, and deserving of an A/A- rank. Trick Room has gotten some interesting Pokemon that like to abuse their low speed such as Mega-Abomasnow and Mega-Mawile, but because there's so much powerful priority in the meta, and because Trick Room setters are usually weak to Dark/Ghost, the Trick Room playstyle could be B rank perhaps.

Ranking playstyles does take some things out of consideration I guess, because the effectiveness of a playstyle does heavily depend on how well the player can use it.
 
After reading Subject 18's and Gary2346's posts a question came into my head, which was: Is it legit to rank playstyles? For example, HO is the most effective playstyle because of all the amazing choices for Pokemon that can be used in an HO team. Therefore, at least for this gen, HO could be considered the "S rank" playstyle. Stall, although it got new tools such as Mega-Venusaur, fails to wall a variety of powerful wallbreakers in OU, making it good, and deserving of an A/A- rank. Trick Room has gotten some interesting Pokemon that like to abuse their low speed such as Mega-Abomasnow and Mega-Mawile, but because there's so much powerful priority in the meta, and because Trick Room setters are usually weak to Dark/Ghost, the Trick Room playstyle could be B rank perhaps.

Ranking playstyles does take some things out of consideration I guess, because the effectiveness of a playstyle does heavily depend on how well the player can use it.

Nah that would just add unnecessary confusion into the ranks. Players should be able to determine the "viability" of a playstyle by looking at the structure of the ranks themselves. If 75% of the upper ranks are made up of offensive threats, than offense is most likely a very viable playstyle, if not the best. Most niche stall threats are ranked high but not too high, which would most likely mean that stall is pretty good, but not dominant.
 
After reading Subject 18's and Gary2346's posts a question came into my head, which was: Is it legit to rank playstyles? For example, HO is the most effective playstyle because of all the amazing choices for Pokemon that can be used in an HO team. Therefore, at least for this gen, HO could be considered the "S rank" playstyle. Stall, although it got new tools such as Mega-Venusaur, fails to wall a variety of powerful wallbreakers in OU, making it good, and deserving of an A/A- rank. Trick Room has gotten some interesting Pokemon that like to abuse their low speed such as Mega-Abomasnow and Mega-Mawile, but because there's so much powerful priority in the meta, and because Trick Room setters are usually weak to Dark/Ghost, the Trick Room playstyle could be B rank perhaps.

Ranking playstyles does take some things out of consideration I guess, because the effectiveness of a playstyle does heavily depend on how well the player can use it.
Hell, if a mod wants to give me a green light on this, I'll have an OP ready in a day or so, I really like where this could go discussion wise.

As of now, I'd definitely stick to rating individual Pokemon in this thread though, its a bit too much to be discussing two relatively seperate discussions.
 
Nah that would just add unnecessary confusion into the ranks. Players should be able to determine the "viability" of a playstyle by looking at the structure of the ranks themselves. If 75% of the upper ranks are made up of offensive threats, than offense is most likely a very viable playstyle, if not the best. Most niche stall threats are ranked high but not too high, which would most likely mean that stall is pretty good, but not dominant.
True, ranking playstyles may just add confusion. You're pretty much right. There is only a few cases where a Pokemon's ranking doesn't really correspond with what that Pokemon's playstyle ranking would be. For example, Pokemon like Mr. Mime and Smeargle are ranked low despite them being crucial to the baton pass playstyle, one that is most likely fitting into A+ rank. In short Pokemon that provide very useful niches for their playstyles but are trash at anything else are the only cases where their ranking doesn't more or less mirror their playstyle ranking.
 
BlackLight There are so few playstyles out there that making a "viability playstyle ranking" really isn't necessary. If you really want to talk about change in the usage of playstyles, you can already do so with the "Current Metagame Trends" thread.

anyway, how do people feel about the lower portion of the ranking thread, particularly B to C+ (inclusive)?
 
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There are so few playstyles out there that making a "viability playstyle ranking" really isn't necessary. If you really want to talk about change in the usage of playstyles, you can already do so with the "Current Metagame Trends" thread.

anyway, how do people feel about the lower portion of the ranking thread, particularly B to C+ (inclusive)?

Ok, I agree, let's focus on lower B and C rankings for now, A and S are just u.u. One thing that I've not understood is Sharpedo in B- Rank? What does it have over Azumarill, Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Keldeo, or even Manaphy. It's just far weaker than every single of the Pokemon I mentioned beforehand. It also has horrible bulk, 70 / 40 / 40 is just pathetic, it's lower than Munchlax without Eviolite for one thing! It's got an ok typing, but it really doesn't offer much. It's resisted by Water / Fairy, Water / Dark, Water / Fighting, and Grass / Fighting, amongst others, and these aforementioned typings are common in OU. It can't take any priority whatsoever:
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252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 477-562 (169.7 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 105-125 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes [even Shadow Sneak of all things 2HKOes]
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 121-143 (43 - 50.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 183-217 (65.1 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 167-197 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 122-144 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 308-366 (109.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 174-205 (61.9 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 148-175 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 517-611 (183.9 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 158-186 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 120-142 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Staraptor Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 127-150 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 163-192 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock [Coil]
+2 252+ Atk Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 169-199 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 117-138 (41.6 - 49.1%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
These are all the priority attacks in OU, even the bottom-of-the-barrel ones. Sharpedo cannot avoid the 2HKO from any of them. Physically Defensive walls also beat all Sharpedo, and with the prevalence of Fairy-, Electric-, and Fighting-types, Sharpedo just struggles in OU. The only problem I've ever faced playing one is with Destiny Bond, a new move for Sharpedo that really annoys me. Of course, I will not overlook the perks of Sharpedo. Speed Boost, for one thing, is really fucking awesome. Sharpedo has also good coverage and its STAB moves are ok, but they're not the best. It also has the plus bonus of being decently powerful. However, another flaw: Speed Boost. If you're looking for a Speed Boost Pokemon, go to Scolipede. And if you play an obvious Protect, then Sharpedo just wasted a turn and gave the opponent a free turn. Overall, Sharpedo is fast and decently powerful, but its very largely outclassed and way too frail, therefore, Sharpedo for C+ / C Rank.
Here's my thoughts on one B- / C+ Pokemon :)
 
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