Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[theV8man]

I think Staraptor deserves a higher rank than B-. It's Choice Band set is amazing at hurting things, it u-turns, and 100 speed is not too bad for a wallbreaker. It can even go for a priority move with quick attack. It does get walled by some steels (skarm), but those are easily taken care of by its most common partner; Talonflame. I'd say the worst things about Staraptor is that it gets walled hard by Aegislash. Due to its good speed, great coverage, and superb power, I think as a wallbreaker Staraptor is more effective than Crawdaunt, who is also in B-.

I propose Staraptor moves from B- to B.

 

[the-bumper-car]

I agree with Sharpedo - C+ is too good for it, it needs to go down.

Also is Mega-Absol really a B- pokemon? I think at this point the "Ooh Magic Bounce Mega" novelty has worn off, and it's too fragile for the offensive/bulky meta that OU is right now. What niche does it have right now? What playstyle does it fit on? I think it needs to go to at least C+, or lower.

Also what the eff are Gourgeist-S/XL doing at C? I don't think a defensive mon with weaknesses to Ice, Flying, Fire, Dark AND Ghost can be of much use in OU. It can't be a good offensive mon either, thanks to those terrible abilities and offensive stats (either you get an offensively weak, almost fast mon, or a mon with decent HP but slow as mud and STILL HAVE SHITTY SPECIAL DEFENSE). I don't get why it's still at C, when it should go to C-/D.

 

[escarlata]

Sharpedo is worth its ranking in C+. Speed Boost makes it one of the more reliably late game cleaner in the game. Base 120 Atk and being able to afford to run an Adamant nature and Life Orb lets it hit stuff quite hard. Water/Dark is an amazing STAB combination, only resisted by Azumarill, Breloom, Keldeo, Chesnaught, Greninja and MGyara in the whole of OU, and can run Zen Headbutt to further down on the number of resists. Sharpedo has a similar role to Greninja; Offensive teams have a tough time against it. Sharpedo might not be able to take a hit, but due to the nature of how it works, it doesn't have to take any. Destiny Bond is also brilliant for such a frail Pokemon to have.

As for M-Absol, as frail as it is, if it is somehow allowed to get up a SD, +2 Sucker Punch makes it hard to revenge kill. 115 SAtk makes it hard to fully wall. While its usefulness has fallen, it still has a usable role in the metagame. B- is the tier where something can sweep if unprepared for; C+ is the tier where something cannot reliably sweep even when unprepared for; so B- is ok.

 

[Rotosect]

I think Sharpedo needs to be ranked significantly higher than Mega Banette because it pretty much outclasses it. While Prankster grants M-Banette priority on support moves, Speed Boost is almost as good and affects attacking moves as well. The only reason one would bother using M-Banette at all is Prankster+Destiny Bond (there is no reason to use it over Sableye otherwise), but it needs to mega evolve first, forcing it to use Protect against faster opponents and thus wasting a valuable moveslot. Not using Protect on M-Banette is a risky proposition, given how frail it is and you certainly don't want to have your mega pokemon OHKO'd before it even gets to mega evolve. Being one of the two megas to be OHKO'd by Knock Off doesn't help either.
On the offensive side, Sharpedo completely outclasses it, no question. M-Banette's huge attack stat is sadly wasted with its terrible physical movepool (its best coverage moves are dark-type, which is redundant with its ghost STAB), and its special attack isn't high enough to make an impact. Sharpedo has nice mixed stats, a good STAB combination and can hold Life Orb not caring much about the recoil. After one or two turns Destiny Bond is guaranteed to go first against anything that doesn't have priority or Prankster, making Sharpedo able to take down at least 2 opposing pokemon if you play your cards right.
Finally, despite its terrible bulk and weakness to Mach Punch, Sharpedo does resist a lot of common priority moves (Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch and Bullet Punch!), which is a nice bonus. Oh, and it doesn't take up a mega slot, of course.

Been said that, Sharpedo should stay in C+ rank, while Mega Banette should be moved down to C- or possibly D rank.

 

[chive]

It has a super fucking large movepool as well.

This cannot be stressed enough. Even though Moonblast/Flamethrower is its most common attacking set, Clefable also has access to Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Grass Knot... If there's a Mon that gives you trouble, Clefable can hit it, period.

Also to the people advocating a Clefable demotion, it's not meant to be a wall, guys. You don't bring it in on Zard-Y and expect it to wall it. You bring it in on something that can't touch it (walls, Dragons choice-locked in Dragon moves, you name it) and get a free Calm Mind on the switch, after which it's pretty hard to 2HKO by unboosted attacks (or even by boosted attacks if you run Unaware), hits like a truck and is also impossible to wear down with residual damage due to Magic Guard (if chosen). So... You have a Pokémon that's very hard to 2HKO, unaffected by residual damage of ALL SORTS, has access to reliable recovery and one of the best special movepools in the game? How is that not incredible?

 

[the-bumper-car]

Sharpedo is worth its ranking in C+. Speed Boost makes it one of the more reliably late game cleaner in the game. Base 120 Atk and being able to afford to run an Adamant nature and Life Orb lets it hit stuff quite hard. Water/Dark is an amazing STAB combination, only resisted by Azumarill, Breloom, Keldeo, Chesnaught, Greninja and MGyara in the whole of OU, and can run Zen Headbutt to further down on the number of resists. Sharpedo has a similar role to Greninja; Offensive teams have a tough time against it. Sharpedo might not be able to take a hit, but due to the nature of how it works, it doesn't have to take any. Destiny Bond is also brilliant for such a frail Pokemon to have.

Aren't you a little concerned that the resists you listed are all mons who can OHKO Sharpedo back?

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 728-858 (259 - 305.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 517-611 (183.9 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 560-662 (199.2 - 235.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 464-548 (165.1 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not even gonna bother posting calcs for MGyara, it's even uglier. These aren't even S tier pokemon who wall and OHKO back - these are A and B tier pokemon, and some of them are pivots (Greninja) or Tanks (Chesnaught) and they still OHKO back. For Sharpedo to work you need to have to many conditions:
1. All priority users are dead/close to dying
2. Opponent hasn't laid down hazards
3. Opposing mon hasn't gotten any boosts.
4. Mons who resist Sharpedo's stabs/Earthquake coverage are gone
5. Physical Walls are dead

That's way too many conditions for a mon that can't even guarantee you the win. Sharpe also gets screwed over by common walls:

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sharpedo: 396-468 (140.9 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 230-270 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 226-268 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 219-258 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 101-121 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 101-121 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippowdon, Clefable and Skarmory are more likely to KO Sharpedo than be OHKO'd back. That is unacceptable for an offensive mon.

As for M-Absol, as frail as it is, if it is somehow allowed to get up a SD, +2 Sucker Punch makes it hard to revenge kill. 115 SAtk makes it hard to fully wall. While its usefulness has fallen, it still has a usable role in the metagame. B- is the tier where something can sweep if unprepared for; C+ is the tier where something cannot reliably sweep even when unprepared for; so B- is ok.

M-Absol is severely pressured to find that SD opportunity though. It's in a terrible position when it comes out - does it Sucker Punch and risk not killing the opponent, and then get killed by the counter attack, or does it Swords Dance only to risk getting OHKO'd? It also can't switch into status moves until it's M-evolved. It can't reliably sweep even when unprepared for because most teams already have powerful attacks/priority that can deal with M-Absol.

 

[Jacks0n]

I have a few to say about the rankings.

Clefable as an A+ Pokemon is absurd. It's base stats 95/70/73/95/90/60 are underwhelming for a top tier OU threat. You have to invest EV's in defenses else it's too frail. There are few attacks Clefable can switch into. Certain Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Diggersby can OHKO it (without defenses boosts). It is taunt bait. It is slow. It's attacks are weak without sacrific. It was an RU mon last generation and the fact it's typing is now Fairy does not make it that much more OP. Move down to A- at best.


Next for Keldeo and Rotom Wash, as much as I love Keldeo, it/he does not deserve A+ due to his shallow offensive movepool on the special side. That 72 attack is not very helpful. Greninja has better physical and special movepool and although lacking the extra power and Skarmsey coverage. Keldeo is an A Pokemon at best. As much as I despise Rotom Wash and being too predictable, it gets many switch-in opportunities. Even though it’s too obvious when it’s going to Will-o-Wisp, Hydro Pump, or Volt Switch, it’s EVs are tough to guess and those moves still provide great coverage. Gastrodon is trash as a counter and the prevalence of Wash has forced me to use Mega Venusaur frequently. It’s difficult to OHKO without Mold Breaker EQ or a boosted grass attack. Wash also an A Pokemon.

Scizor getting a B rank is also absurd. True, Mega Scizor is quite superior in terms of bulk and strength, but a Choice Banded Scizor set with Bullet Punch, Knock-off, and U-turn for me has been very useful and hard hitting. Scizor for B+ or better.

The growing number of Pokemon in D rank is a sign of lazy analysis. Most of them ought to be ranked in the C's whether they are underused or not. Out of those Pokemon, I’m surprised to see Jirachi there. It was S ranked last gen, and from the battles I’ve watched, it still causes a last of trouble with paraflinching like Togekiss. What’s wrong with it?

Clefable is easy deserving of A+, with two of the best abilities in the game and arguably the best typing, it has soo much versatility and different options you can never know what set it is, besides, its bulk is better than everedge

 

[escarlata]

Aren't you a little concerned that the resists you listed are all mons who can OHKO Sharpedo back?

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 728-858 (259 - 305.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 517-611 (183.9 - 217.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 560-662 (199.2 - 235.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 560-660 (199.2 - 234.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Chesnaught Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 464-548 (165.1 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 343-406 (122 - 144.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm not even gonna bother posting calcs for MGyara, it's even uglier. These aren't even S tier pokemon who wall and OHKO back - these are A and B tier pokemon, and some of them are pivots (Greninja) or Tanks (Chesnaught) and they still OHKO back. For Sharpedo to work you need to have to many conditions:
1. All priority users are dead/close to dying
2. Opponent hasn't laid down hazards
3. Opposing mon hasn't gotten any boosts.
4. Mons who resist Sharpedo's stabs/Earthquake coverage are gone
5. Physical Walls are dead

That's way too many conditions for a mon that can't even guarantee you the win. Sharpe also gets screwed over by common walls:

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sharpedo: 396-468 (140.9 - 166.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 230-270 (58.3 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 243-286 (86.4 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 226-268 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 219-258 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 101-121 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 101-121 (30.2 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippowdon, Clefable and Skarmory are more likely to KO Sharpedo than be OHKO'd back. That is unacceptable for an offensive mon.

The conditions that you listed are the conditions for Sharpedo to sweep a team. Sharpedo doesn't have to kill teams, because it is not meant to be a sweeper, but rather a very good sweep stopper that can double as a sweeper if the condition permits. Yes it doesn't have the capability to take a hit, but when nothing can hit you, who cares if you can take a hit. Talonflame has to watch out for the rare Aqua Jet, and even physical walls have to watch out for a special based set. Thanks to Protect + Speed Boost, Sharpedo is almost sure to take down something that lacks priority with it because of Destiny Bond. Sharpedo's attacks are far from being weak; Adamant Waterfall hitting only 8% less than Greninja's Hydro Pump, and Modest Hydro Pump hitting harder than Greninja's. As a sweep stopper, the scenario when Sharpedo works is not when it sweeps a team; when it prevents a sweeper from sweeping your team, it already worked.

;tldr
Sharpedo isn't a sweeper, it is a sweep stopper that can double as a cleaner so it shouldn't be ranked on its ability to sweep.

M-Absol is severely pressured to find that SD opportunity though. It's in a terrible position when it comes out - does it Sucker Punch and risk not killing the opponent, and then get killed by the counter attack, or does it Swords Dance only to risk getting OHKO'd? It also can't switch into status moves until it's M-evolved. It can't reliably sweep even when unprepared for because most teams already have powerful attacks/priority that can deal with M-Absol.

Why does it have to risk not killing the opponent? You are the one sending it in. You obviously send it in on something that you know you can kill.

It obviously doesn't try to set up aganist offensive Pokemon obviously, neither does NP Thundurus, nor does SD Talonflame. But even if it can't set up, its mix attacker still hits pretty hard. You are severely underestimating base 150/115/115 offenses if you think it is incapable of sweeping unprepared teams. STAB Sucker Punch hits really hard, and MBounce means Sucker Punch is hard to play around. If reliability is a concern, it can run Knock Off alongside Sucker Punch, though that means it has to use Superpower over Play Rough. Most physical walls are fried by Fire Blast from its above average SAtk. Regarding priority, MAbsol has its own STAB Sucker Punch off base 150 Atk and 115 Spd, which is pretty much the fastest non-Extreme Speed priority in OU so it isn't easy to revenge him. Finally, Magic Bounce lets it set up on Deoxys-D which is pretty common, and Thundurus cannot Prankster T-Wave it. That alone is enough to warrant a B- rank for it. It's biggest flaw is obviously its middling bulk, but isn't so terrible that it should go down to C+.

We are not even talking about B rank here, which already contains a lot of Pokemon that are incapable of sweeping a team. Saying that Absol and Sharpedo should drop just because they can't sweep teams is hardly convincing. They have their distinct roles, and they do a relatively good job at said roles, hence they are deserving of their current rankings, and shouldn't drop further.

 

[Groudon ex]

The growing number of Pokemon in D rank is a sign of lazy analysis. Most of them ought to be ranked in the C's whether they are underused or not. Out of those Pokemon, I’m surprised to see Jirachi there. It was S ranked last gen, and from the battles I’ve watched, it still causes a last of trouble with paraflinching like Togekiss. What’s wrong with it?

Jirachi got hit extremely hard by all the of the changes that have occurred from gen 5 to gen 6. The defensive nerf to Steel types is the biggest reason for its downfall - with Dark and Ghost both being very common attacking types, Jirachi finds it difficult to shrug off things that it used to be able to take. Other changes have caused many of its sets to become significantly less viable. Due to the weather nerf, it no longer gets to enjoy the luxury of having its Fire weakness neutered and packing a 100% accurate Thunder in rain. Since Electric types can no longer be paralysed, Jirachi is now easily stopped by common threats such as Thundurus, Mega Manectric, Zapdos and Raikou, and Excadrill's unbanning has not done it any favours either. The metagame has become slower and bulkier in general, and so paralysis isn't as crippling now as it was in the fast, frail offensive metagame of BW(2). The Choice Scarf set has become much less useful too. The only set that is still somewhat viable in SubCM, but even then Jirachi still has a much harder time setting up than in the past due to bad matchups with the majority of S, A+ and A ranked threats. Not to mention, Jirachi also suffers from competition for a teamslot with other Steel types, namely Aegislash, Bisharp, Mega Scizor and Mega Mawile, all of whom bring their own unique role to the table. Jirachi may still have options such as Wish, Healing Wish and Calm Mind, but lets face it - Steel/Psychic is a poor defensive typing.

tl;dr - Almost all of Jirachi's sets were nerfed in one way or another as a result of the generation transition, while it got nothing in return. It's still decent, but there are better options available.

 

[rachet67]

The conditions that you listed are the conditions for Sharpedo to sweep a team. Sharpedo doesn't have to kill teams, because it is not meant to be a sweeper, but rather a very good revenge killer that can double as a sweeper if the condition permits. Yes it doesn't have the capability to take a hit, but when nothing can hit you, who cares if you can take a hit. Talonflame has to watch out for the rare Aqua Jet, and even physical walls have to watch out for a special based set. Thanks to Protect + Speed Boost, Sharpedo is almost sure to take down something that lacks priority with it because of Destiny Bond. Sharpedo's attacks are far from being weak; Adamant Waterfall hitting only 8% less than Greninja's Hydro Pump, and Modest Hydro Pump hitting harder than Greninja's. As a revenger killer, the scenario when Sharpedo works is not when it sweeps a team; when it prevents a sweeper from sweeping your team, it already worked.

;tldr
Sharpedo isn't a sweeper, it is a revenge killer that can double as a cleaner so it shouldn't be ranked on its ability to sweep.

Sharpedo isn't a revenge killer in any shape or form. Revenge killers don't have to use protect before getting enough speed to actually revenge kill, and protect defeats the whole purpose since you're allowing your opponent to switch out for free or just get another dragon dance. The only thing Sharpedo can really do is late game sweeping, but even at that it's not very good, as it takes priority like a bitch, and if it runs aqua jet it misses key coverage, and is easily walled.

 

[escarlata]

Sharpedo isn't a revenge killer in any shape or form. Revenge killers don't have to use protect before getting enough speed to actually revenge kill, and protect defeats the whole purpose since you're allowing your opponent to switch out for free anyways. The only thing Sharpedo can really do is late game sweeping, but even at that it's not very good, as it takes priority like a bitch, and if it runs aqua jet it misses key coverage, and is easily walled.

Apologie for the misuse of terms, when I said revenge killer I meant sweep stopper and I've just changed the mentions to sweep stopper (though technically the point of revenge killing is to stop sweeps). Sharpedo doesn't have to take hits because nothing at late game outspeeds it anyway. Waterfall and Crunch has very good type coverage so it can run one of Destiny Bond/Aqua Jet/Ice Beam/Zen Headbutt to deal with threats it couldn't. With Destiny Bond, it is almost never deadweight against most teams, which already makes it less situational than most other C+ rank. So unless there is something that really makes it pale in comparison to other C+ Pokemon, I'm not really convinced that it should drop lower.

 

[Baharoth]

The ranking isn't meant to be biased towards HO, its just a reflection of the current meta. If the best Pokemon in the tier are common HO members, why shouldn't they be ranked higher? It's not like the pokemon in S-rank are only used on HO, they can all be used on Balance or even stall for that matter. Zard X can be used on every playstyle including stall due to the WoW set. Landorus is found a lot on Balance because balance usually fares pretty poorly against stall and Landorus helps with that. Thundurus can beat just about every playstyle barring stall and its general versatility keeps it in S-rank. Both Deoxys can be use used on balance and are unmatched at their roles. Aegislash is Aegislash abd it manages to adapt to the meta faster than it can adapt to it.

That it isnt meant to doesnt mean its not. And since "the best pokemon" is highly subjective it should be obvious that in a meta where more people play HO than stall and balance together there will be bias involved. And if you wanna tell me now that all the people play HO because its SOOOOO much better than stall and balance, skip it. Imo the main reason for that is that HO teams are far easier to build and play. Most people prefer going the easy way and why bother spending hours with building a decent balance or stall team when you can just c&p the S rank mons, add Bisharp and have your perfect HO team? Even if it is the best playstyle, dont realy wanna judge on that, its not that much better to justify that the S ranks are almost exclusively HO mons while balance and stall players have to pick their teams mostly from A and below. Especially considering that everything below B+ is almost irrelevant once you get above 1600 since its hardly used at all. Yes Zard and Aegi are also good on other archetypes, thats why I totaly agree with their S rank status, maybe even Lando for balance but the rest doesnt have much use outside of HO with Deo-D beeing the extreme case, dont know what kind of balance teams your playing against but Deo-D on balance is ridiculous as they can never build up enough pressure to hope keeping those hazards on the field.

Ranking things higher than they should be for the sake of not trying to be biased defeats the entire purpose of ranking by viability and we should just be ranking Pokemon based on preference rather than what the meta is dictating.

Well thats where I disagree. A pokemon doesnt get better or worse because one playstyle is more or less popluar exept maybe when its extremely effective at countering that playstyle. Deo-D wouldnt be anywhere near S rank if it wasnt for HOs popularity, but would the pokemon itself get worse or easier to handle with lower HO usage? No, it would still be just as good for that archetype just that the archetype isnt used as much, something like that shouldnt affect the ranking of a pokemon. Going by your logic Ninetales could end up in S rank when sun teams get popular enough which is just plain wrong from my point of view, that pokemon is bad no matter how popular its team archetype is. Politoad in A- was somewhat the same case though not that crazy. The way I see it these rankings are more about playstyle popularity than about pokemon viability.

No offense, but if any of you still don't think HO or offense in general is the best playstyle at the moment, then I highly doubt you play the metagame enough to support your opinion.

Yeah, yeah. Smogons favorite way of dealing with different opinions, everybody who thinks different has no clue what he is talking about, thats so mature...

HO is certainly the most common playstyle whether or not its the best is impossible to tell objectivly.

 

[dadoux]

I don't know why Mega banette is even on his list, it's the worst mega by far, prankster activates 1 turn after the Mevolution so you have to set-up on something first, it can't eal like sableye, can't leech seed like whihimscott, can't twave / sub like Thundurus...

His attack stack is good but he can't boost it, he's way too slow and his movepool is awful.

Starmie/M-Houndoom are pretty underrated btw

 

[Amaan]

I don't know why Mega banette is even on his list, it's the worst mega by far, prankster activates 1 turn after the Mevolution so you have to set-up on something first, it can't eal like sableye, can't leech seed like whihimscott, can't twave / sub like Thundurus...

His attack stack is good but he can't boost it, he's way too slow and his movepool is awful.

Move him back to D, what was the reason for moving this garbage up?

 

[NoahStar]

I have a few to say about the rankings.

Clefable as an A+ Pokemon is absurd. It's base stats 95/70/73/95/90/60 are underwhelming for a top tier OU threat. You have to invest EV's in defenses else it's too frail. There are few attacks Clefable can switch into. Certain Pokemon like Crawdaunt and Diggersby can OHKO it (without defenses boosts). It is taunt bait. It is slow. It's attacks are weak without sacrific. It was an RU mon last generation and the fact it's typing is now Fairy does not make it that much more OP. Move down to A- at best.

Many others have already explained in a good argument why you're very wrong about Clefable, but I would like to touch on something that wasn't addressed nearly as much: Clefable's flexibility and amazing ability to adapt to the metagame.

In the ~7 months that Gen 6 has been out, the metagame has changed much more than any other generation of competitive battling hands down. If we were to make a graph of which Pokemon were viable in October, December, mid-January (around the time PokeBank was released internationally), March, and now, we would have a complete clusterfuck mess of lines. And with all of this change, Clefable has been able to adapt to the meta in a way that has made it a top tier threat the entire time. Genesect and StanceDance Aegi riding the hype train of October/November? Unaware and Fire Blast. Deoxys-D/S not banned and continue their hazard shenanigans? Stall teams starting to rise again? Magic Guard LO CM. HO teams make their way to the best playstyle for laddering? Physically defensive CM Unaware.

With the exception of Mega Zard X and Aegislash, nothing has been able to adapt to the meta as well as Clefable. As you can see with Rotom-W, MVenusaur, and MPinsir, the ability to adapt plays a huge part in viability. Clefable should stay A+ and I don't think its going anywhere anytime soon.

In fact, I would not use Garchomp or Kyurem-B without Iron Head. Dragons need to hit fairies hard before switching out.

Using Iron Head on Garchomp is a catch-22; no matter what you run, you will either be completely walled by Togekiss (if you lack Iron Head), Ferrothron (if you lack Fire Fang/Fire Blast), or you are running an outclassed set (if you lack Stone Edge). Because steel is a bad offensive coverage move, Garchomp is better off not running Iron Head at all. Togekiss can be hit with Stone Edge.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I also thing that the still is partially based on the HO offense more than what the actual metagame is:
Aegislash is number 1 on the 1760 OU stats which represents it's generally effective. Thundurus is 3 int he metagame which means how effective is. Charizard-X is very efective and deserving the rank it gets (specially if you add unpredictability when it comes out the first time). But Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S and Landorus arepokemon that are only S rank to the perspective of the HO player, specially when HO is not the most used playstyle (standard offense is and balance is second).

Exost 5 types of types based of how offensieve a team is:
Hyper-Offense
-Offense
-Balance
-Semi-stall
-Full stall

We take a mix between standard offense, bulky offense and balance teams, and this are for me, the results of the rankin for me. Maybe I am a bit wrong but it looks like the ratings will be if we evsaluated pokemon from type of teams:
-Aegislash: S/S/S
-MCharizard X: S/S/S
-Thundurus-I: S/A+/A+
-Landorus-I: A+/A/A (and in Bulky Offense and Balance Landorus-T is usually better)
-Deoxys-S: A+/A-/A
-Deoxys-D: A-/B/B+ (there are better pokemon to set up Stealth Rock on those types of teams, mainly Ferrothorn and in lesser extent, Skarmory).

Deoxys-D in Bulky Offenses could have a bit higher ranking (1-2 ranks) pokemon with "rejected analysis" in performance which is ridiculous.

-Hyper Offense: A team of 5-6 pokemon that are inhirently offensive and generally the majority of the members are frail pokemon. The 6th members could be a dedicated setter, whose only objective is set up the battle (hazards and screens).

Offense: A team mainly of sweepers with various degrades of some hyper offensiev eand some bulky.

-Hyper Offense: A team consisted on teams with are offensive but they are a bit bulky. A team of one defensive pokemon, an hyper offensive pokemon and 4 "bulky" pokemon is also Bulky Offense. This teams could have speed problems. Statistically they are between pure offense and balance.

-Balance: Those team are having a mix of different types of playstyles. This is the architypes with more viable pokemon by difference. In this playstyle we could get from defensive pokemon to classic Ho stuff.

-Bulky Balance: (ofiicially not described): A balance teams with high focus of bulk through all the team.

-Semi-stall: This team is strictly a teamw ith 2-3 Offensive (or HO) memebers and the rest of the team is basically stall.

-Stall. All the team is defensive pokemon with the main objective of damage is hazard, status and weak attacks and having all types of recovery possible. Itn statisti"the unofficial bulky balance are included on semi-stall.

 

[Subject 18]

That it isnt meant to doesnt mean its not. And since "the best pokemon" is highly subjective it should be obvious that in a meta where more people play HO than stall and balance together there will be bias involved. And if you wanna tell me now that all the people play HO because its SOOOOO much better than stall and balance, skip it. Imo the main reason for that is that HO teams are far easier to build and play. Most people prefer going the easy way and why bother spending hours with building a decent balance or stall team when you can just c&p the S rank mons, add Bisharp and have your perfect HO team? Even if it is the best playstyle, dont realy wanna judge on that, its not that much better to justify that the S ranks are almost exclusively HO mons while balance and stall players have to pick their teams mostly from A and below. Especially considering that everything below B+ is almost irrelevant once you get above 1600 since its hardly used at all. Yes Zard and Aegi are also good on other archetypes, thats why I totaly agree with their S rank status, maybe even Lando for balance but the rest doesnt have much use outside of HO with Deo-D beeing the extreme case, dont know what kind of balance teams your playing against but Deo-D on balance is ridiculous as they can never build up enough pressure to hope keeping those hazards on the field.

If you're going to quote my posts at least tag me so I know you're addressing me. If this is a meta where people play more Hyper Offense doesn't that mean it's at least effective enough to use? If it's not at least effective people wouldn't bother using it as much. You mention that HO teams are just copy/pastes and are all very similar, but what about stall or baton pass for that matter? Stall and Baton Pass teams are very, very similar in their builds Skarm / Chansey / Quag / Mega Venu or Amoonguss / Clefable / Heatran or Scolipede / Sylveon / Vaporeon / Espeon / Mr. Mine / Smeargle, and people just stole those exact teams and made few or no changes and had success with it.

I don't how much tournament play you've watched or high ladder matches you've seen, but in those I see Balance and stall quite a lot, even more than you're giving them credit for. Deo-D HO is really common on the ladder but in Tournament play, I guarantee you its not just DeoHO thats being used. Sure you can say popularity =/= viability but that only goes so far, you need to consider what's going on in the meta, how people are building their teams, how effective is it, how people are playing in order to deal with it. And from my experience and from what I've seen Deo-D/Deo-S's presence is very well felt in the meta and is shown in people's teambuilding and play. You can't just say that its popular thus people just back it and Offensive Pokemon are being ranked higher but instead people can explain why they are placed where they are by using what's going on in the metagame.

Deo-D and Deo-S can be use on balanced, I'm not sure where you get that you can't. The fact that you say that you can question it shows a lack of experience on your part. I never said you had to use SR + Spikes on balance, using SR / Taunt / Recover / Seismic Toss is what you need for balance teams. This puts pressure on other balance teams and even stall as they struggle against Taunt users and not being able to clear SR easily causes them to just lose in most cases. Deoxys-Speed on the other is used as a revenge killer when a Scarf users doesn't necessarily fit on the team.

Well thats where I disagree. A pokemon doesnt get better or worse because one playstyle is more or less popluar exept maybe when its extremely effective at countering that playstyle. Deo-D wouldnt be anywhere near S rank if it wasnt for HOs popularity, but would the pokemon itself get worse or easier to handle with lower HO usage? No, it would still be just as good for that archetype just that the archetype isnt used as much, something like that shouldnt affect the ranking of a pokemon. Going by your logic Ninetales could end up in S rank when sun teams get popular enough which is just plain wrong from my point of view, that pokemon is bad no matter how popular its team archetype is. Politoad in A- was somewhat the same case though not that crazy. The way I see it these rankings are more about playstyle popularity than about pokemon viability.

Actually some pokemon do get better of worse if one playstyle is more or less popular. Like Gary2346 and I both mentioned, offensive teams have adapted to stall and chansey itself to the point where they are exploitable and easier to deal with. This isn't bias, its what's actually happening. Deo-D would still be ranked higher regardless of HO's popularity. Again when you have a pokemon that can't be easily prevented from doing it's role, is near impossible to exploit, and has the necessary tools to counteract some of its preventive measures it would still be ranked higher because of its overall effectiveness not just because of the playstyle that it promotes. This is the point that I don't think you seem to fully understand. Then explain to me how you would rank the Pokemon then, because the direction you probably want to go won't truly reflect the current metagame. If you don't trust what I'm saying you can ask players like Dice, Ojama, McMeghan, Shake or Cbb and they would agree with I've been saying.

If you really want to argue about this with me, you can PM me about it. It's derailing the thread at this point.

 

[RotomPoison]

Are you suggesting that (as an argument not seperating the actual list like this) we give opinions on them in specific playstyles Eievui-Nymphia ?

That could work, but it's not as concrete as that. It doesn't matter how well a Pokemon does on average through all playstales. Does Landorus-I work on stall? No. Does it work well on HO teams? Yes. You can't make a Pokemon seem worse if it does not fit in a certain playstyle.

 

[Ajwf]

Just remember that stall pokemon are only as good as the meta allows them to be. Should the meta say Pinsir-mega is the greatest pokemon there, and that it carries close combat, you would probably find Lunatone or Solrock (which ever one had better defense) sitting in a C rank, at least. If Pinsir was the best mega and flying was the most OP type, Venu mega wouldn't even be ranked... Given that stall is simply an entity whose viability is determined by outside factors, ranking something as the "best" stall mon only brings counters to it. The death of Venu's S rank viability was his sheer success. You can't say that about Aegi or Thundurus-I.

Also, I propose Mesprit gains a C- Rank if only for countering all Landorus-I sets. With ice beam, it can ohko, it has passable defense, is a good screen/rock setter. Mesprit is actually surprisingly cool to have around given some of our top threats.

Mesprit
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 96 Spd / 96 SAtk / 252 HP / 64 SDef
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Stealth Rock / Healing Wish
- Extrasensory / Knock Off

Some Calcs

Counters: (Rotom-W, Landorus)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 91-108 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 392-464 (122.5 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 112-133 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO

Checks: (Thundurus, Garchomp, Gengar, Landorus-t)

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 196-232 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 372-440 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 276-326 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 388-460 (101.5 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

So yes, occasionally shaky on offense, but Mesprit's utility is undeniable.

Deo-S lacking Knock off is walled.


In a pinch, you can revenge kill a lower HP keldeo or take away the specs. Not a generally winnable fight but the utility is an option.

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 241-285 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or, running Knock Off:
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, that hurts... But taking away Keldeo's specs via knock off basically neutralizes keldeo. Obviously checks here, if that, but Hydro Pump's acc means you will actually win some of these.

The offense isn't exactly the selling point. Setting up Stealth rocks, have T-Wave support, knock off support, occasionally screens... Mesprit isn't deadweight when these threats aren't present (and you shouldn't find too many of those games anyways). Arguably better than Azelf because of the solid 80/105/105 bulk and not being completely outclassed by Deo-S or D (as 105 SpA is a selling point).

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

No. But a pokemon can't be in S rank if for a balance teams is A- at best.

 

[Tressed]

I don't know why Mega banette is even on his list, it's the worst mega by far, prankster activates 1 turn after the Mevolution so you have to set-up on something first, it can't eal like sableye, can't leech seed like whihimscott, can't twave / sub like Thundurus...

His attack stack is good but he can't boost it, he's way too slow and his movepool is awful.

Starmie/M-Houndoom are pretty underrated btw

It's a hell of a stallbreaker, for one. Will o wisp + Taunt is something most stall teams struggle to deal with. Destiny Bond is pretty abusable too, since you can hit DBond once to get two turns of "protection" since Banette is so slow, which gives you the opportunity to fire off powerful Shadow Claws while all but guaranteeing you at least one kill, possibly more if your opponent doesn't want to suicide right off the bat.

Its movepool is rather decent, actually. Disable, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Substitute, Destiny Bond, Will o wisp, Torment, Toxic, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Shadow Claw are godly on a Prankster with high Attack.

Its bulk is shit, for sure, but that's true for a number of mons. Banette needs one free turn to get going, and after that it can do quite a few different things depending on what you want it to do, all of which it can do fairly well.

TLDR; Don't drop MBanette, its actually a reasonable pick despite its limitations.

 

[Karxrida]

Just remember that stall pokemon are only as good as the meta allows them to be. Should the meta say Pinsir-mega is the greatest pokemon there, and that it carries close combat, you would probably find Lunatone or Solrock (which ever one had better defense) sitting in a C rank, at least. If Pinsir was the best mega and flying was the most OP type, Venu mega wouldn't even be ranked... Given that stall is simply an entity whose viability is determined by outside factors, ranking something as the "best" stall mon only brings counters to it. The death of Venu's S rank viability was his sheer success. You can't say that about Aegi or Thundurus-I.

Also, I propose Mesprit gains a C- Rank if only for countering all Landorus-I sets. With ice beam, it can ohko, it has passable defense, is a good screen/rock setter. Mesprit is actually surprisingly cool to have around given some of our top threats.

Mesprit
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 96 Spd / 96 SAtk / 252 HP / 64 SDef
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Stealth Rock / Healing Wish
- Extrasensory / Knock Off

Some Calcs

Counters: (Rotom-W, Landorus)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 91-108 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 392-464 (122.5 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 112-133 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO

Checks: (Thundurus, Garchomp, Gengar, Landorus-t)

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 196-232 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 372-440 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 276-326 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 388-460 (101.5 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

So yes, occasionally shaky on offense, but Mesprit's utility is undeniable.

Deo-S lacking Knock off is walled.


In a pinch, you can revenge kill a lower HP keldeo or take away the specs. Not a generally winnable fight but the utility is an option.

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 241-285 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or, running Knock Off:
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, that hurts... But taking away Keldeo's specs via knock off basically neutralizes keldeo. Obviously checks here, if that, but Hydro Pump's acc means you will actually win some of these.

The offense isn't exactly the selling point. Setting up Stealth rocks, have T-Wave support, knock off support, occasionally screens... Mesprit isn't deadweight when these threats aren't present (and you shouldn't find too many of those games anyways). Arguably better than Azelf because of the solid 80/105/105 bulk and not being completely outclassed by Deo-S or D (as 105 SpA is a selling point).

It can't counter when Lando-I tend to carry either Knock Off or U-Turn.
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lando does 98% damage minimum with that combination and you flat out lose if SR is up. Kind of a shit counter.

You can't check a healthy one if it's Calm Mind and it has at least one boost.
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 264-312 (82.7 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 217-256 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[rachet67]

Just remember that stall pokemon are only as good as the meta allows them to be. Should the meta say Pinsir-mega is the greatest pokemon there, and that it carries close combat, you would probably find Lunatone or Solrock (which ever one had better defense) sitting in a C rank, at least. If Pinsir was the best mega and flying was the most OP type, Venu mega wouldn't even be ranked... Given that stall is simply an entity whose viability is determined by outside factors, ranking something as the "best" stall mon only brings counters to it. The death of Venu's S rank viability was his sheer success. You can't say that about Aegi or Thundurus-I.

Also, I propose Mesprit gains a C- Rank if only for countering all Landorus-I sets. With ice beam, it can ohko, it has passable defense, is a good screen/rock setter. Mesprit is actually surprisingly cool to have around given some of our top threats.

Mesprit
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 96 Spd / 96 SAtk / 252 HP / 64 SDef
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball
- Stealth Rock / Healing Wish
- Extrasensory / Knock Off

Some Calcs

Counters: (Rotom-W, Landorus)

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 91-108 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 392-464 (122.5 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 154-182 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 112-133 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 64.5% chance to 3HKO

Checks: (Thundurus, Garchomp, Gengar, Landorus-t)

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 196-232 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 129-153 (35.4 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 372-440 (103.9 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 276-326 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 236-282 (64.8 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

96+ SpA Mesprit Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 388-460 (101.5 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 176-208 (48.3 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

So yes, occasionally shaky on offense, but Mesprit's utility is undeniable.

Deo-S lacking Knock off is walled.


In a pinch, you can revenge kill a lower HP keldeo or take away the specs. Not a generally winnable fight but the utility is an option.

96+ SpA Mesprit Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
96+ SpA Mesprit Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 241-285 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or, running Knock Off:
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mesprit: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, that hurts... But taking away Keldeo's specs via knock off basically neutralizes keldeo. Obviously checks here, if that, but Hydro Pump's acc means you will actually win some of these.

The offense isn't exactly the selling point. Setting up Stealth rocks, have T-Wave support, knock off support, occasionally screens... Mesprit isn't deadweight when these threats aren't present (and you shouldn't find too many of those games anyways). Arguably better than Azelf because of the solid 80/105/105 bulk and not being completely outclassed by Deo-S or D (as 105 SpA is a selling point).

Just wanted to point out that it doesn't counter all Landorus sets, as the knock of variant can 2HKO it most of the time, and always if SR is down.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 211-250 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 143-169 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Edit: Uggh ninja'd

 

[Aragorn the King]

It's a hell of a stallbreaker, for one. Will o wisp + Taunt is something most stall teams struggle to deal with. Destiny Bond is pretty abusable too, since you can hit DBond once to get two turns of "protection" since Banette is so slow, which gives you the opportunity to fire off powerful Shadow Claws while all but guaranteeing you at least one kill, possibly more if your opponent doesn't want to suicide right off the bat.

Its movepool is rather decent, actually. Disable, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Substitute, Destiny Bond, Will o wisp, Torment, Toxic, Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Shadow Claw are godly on a Prankster with high Attack.

Its bulk is shit, for sure, but that's true for a number of mons. Banette needs one free turn to get going, and after that it can do quite a few different things depending on what you want it to do, all of which it can do fairly well.

TLDR; Don't drop MBanette, its actually a reasonable pick despite its limitations.

Thank you :D
I was going to post some snarky response, but you covered most of what I was going to say.

 

[Karxrida]

Gengar can do the exact same thing, is faster, and can carry Black Sludge so it can Sub more than 3 times. It's also immune to Toxic and Ground attacks thanks to Levitate.

God Gengar's so awesome at fucking over Stall even without his MEvo...