Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[QuickBH]

DoABarrelRoll Jirachi doesn't have "many resistances", like yay it can counter Mega Venusaur and check Lati@s but that's about it. If Doom Desire to stop BP teams is really what makes Jirachi viable then a Serene Grace doesn't mean a whole lot especially if specs. Also, I would rather have a Pokemon that's actually viable that can somewhat beat BP teams in the form of Prankster Taunt Thundurus as well as being good against any other team composition. I'm sorry, but you mention a lot of things about Jirachi in your arguments without tying anything together.

EDIT:

9 resistances and an immunity is in fact a lot of resistances

Then the people arguing for Jirachi needs to explain why these resistances are important. 9 resistances mean crap when most of those resistances are not utilized.

 

[Durant]

Yeah, Jirachi deserves to be ranked. It still has that enormous movepool, Serene Grace and many resistances, despite gaining weaknesses to Ghost and Dark. On top of that, Jirachi has a niche: it counters Baton Pass teams with Choice Specs Doom Desire. I think it should actually go up to C.

Celebi and Goodra can go rot in D, Celebi is horribly outclassed by Mega Vensuaur while Goodra can't heal itself if it chooses to be specially bulky (assault vest anyone?) and is outclassed by Latios as a special nuke.

Kyurem can stay C+. It is outclassed by K-B but it does have slightly higher Special Attack and can run a SubRoost set much more effectively.

Ok one thing who is ever gonna run Choice Specs Jirachi with Doom Desire. You will be locked into Doom Desire which is not a good move to be locked into and it just looks more like a gimmick for beating Baton Pass more than anything else. Also Baton Pass will most likely be nerfed soon making Jirachi's only niche gone. It does have Serene Grace but with Specs Doom Desire it can't take advantage of it and Togekiss gives it competition anyway as a Paraflincher. Even then relying on flinch is not a strategy as much as it is just luck based. It's resistances are nice but the weaknesses it has are all extremely common and not like most of it's resistances even matter all that much. I really see no reason to use Jirachi and it just seems to niche to consider. I vote Jirachi for not being on the viability ranking at all.

 

[escarlata]

I'm seeing a big change of tone here, it has not been long ago that people were all singing praises for the wonders of the crumbler set (I even remember seeing it in the OU analysis thread), and now it's not even usable?

What gives? Have I entered a parallel reality or something?

What made crumbler good was because a lot of offensive Pokemons were unable to hit it effectively, which forces tons of switches, allowing it to smash whatever with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak for potentially a KO. What changed for crumbler is that teams are generally more prepared for it, which means they usually have something that can survive a Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak combo, and return a KO due to the lack of King's Shield; or every offensive 'mon can hit crumbler hard without switching out. Basically crumbler is almost entirely matchup dependent, in that it needs switch in opportunities, it needs the target to switch out, and it needs to be able to kill the switch in with SB+SS in order to be effective. The introduction of SubTox Aegislash also makes an arguably more effective punisher of switches. Hence crumbler sees a fall in usage.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

What made crumbler good was because a lot of offensive Pokemons were unable to hit it effectively, which forces tons of switches, allowing it to smash whatever with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak for potentially a KO. What changed for crumbler is that teams are generally more prepared for it, which means they usually have something that can survive a Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak combo, and return a KO due to the lack of King's Shield; or every offensive 'mon can hit crumbler hard without switching out. Basically crumbler is almost entirely matchup dependent, in that it needs switch in opportunities, it needs the target to switch out, and it needs to be able to kill the switch in with SB+SS in order to be effective. The introduction of SubTox Aegislash also makes an arguably more effective punisher of switches. Hence crumbler sees a fall in usage.

Thanks for the explanation.

Also, I thought crumbler used King's Shield too. At least mine does.

 

[jbtc10]

If you're going to use Jirachi as a BP counter, don't use Specs, because you just waste turns switching all the time, when you could just stay in and use Psychic (which has a slightly increased 20% chance for a SpD drop because of Serene Grace, making Doom Desire destroy anything when it hits) or Iron Head to break the subs without burning precious turns. With Iron Head, you also have a 60% chance of screwing over Smeargle when it tries to Spore you after you've secured your first kill with Doom Desire. Life Orb or Metal Coat is a better choice over Specs.

 

[Rotosect]

Since it has been brought up in the VR thread, I'm going to repost my thoughts about the BP staples and their placement.

Mr.Mime is obviously the worst of them, as its only critical role is blocking Perish Song, which isn't all that common in OU right now. It has a glaring type and movepool redundancy with Espeon and Sylveon, horrendous physical bulk and unlike Zapdos it's complete Taunt bait. On the good side, though, aside from blocking PS it can stop M-Gardevoir from ravaging the entire team, it can block Roar should you not have the chance to use Ingrain or BP to Espeon and its special bulk lets is setup on a plethora of special attackers. Overall I think it should be moved up to C- rank.

Zapdos is often used over Mr.Mime as insurance against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Bisharp, all of whom give BP chains trouble. It has excellent stats, a decently strong offensive presence and recovery in Roost, but unfortunately it can't contribute to the chain as much as the other members. Zapdos has however other things going for it outside of BP chains, but its importance in such teams should be enough to promote it to A rank.

Smeargle usually gets one or two turns, but it can entirely make or break the game with those. It has the perk of being able to switch into Aegislash if its sash is intact thanks to its Ghost immunity and use it as set-up bait, which is huge. Come into Aegislash, use the appropriate move (Spore/Ingrain/Encore/Quiver Dance) depending on the situation and get out of there.
It's also a decent lead against teams that have no Spore absorbers. Like Zapdos, Smeargle is also usable outside of BP chains. I would say B- is an appropriate rank.

I don't have much time so I'll post my thoughts on the other members later, right now these are the ranks I would suggest:

Scolipede -> A
Espeon -> A
Sylveon -> A
Zapdos -> A
Vaporeon -> B-
Smeargle -> B-
Mr. Mime -> C-

 

[jbtc10]

Since it has been brought up in the VR thread, I'm going to repost my thoughts about the BP staples and their placement.

Mr.Mime is obviously the worst of them, as its only critical role is blocking Perish Song, which isn't all that common in OU right now. It has a glaring type and movepool redundancy with Espeon and Sylveon, horrendous physical bulk and unlike Zapdos it's complete Taunt bait. On the good side, though, aside from blocking PS it can stop M-Gardevoir from ravaging the entire team, it can block Roar should you not have the chance to use Ingrain or BP to Espeon and its special bulk lets is setup on a plethora of special attackers. Overall I think it should be moved up to C- rank.

Zapdos is often used over Mr.Mime as insurance against Mega Pinsir, Talonflame and Bisharp, all of whom give BP chains trouble. It has excellent stats, a decently strong offensive presence and recovery in Roost, but unfortunately it can't contribute to the chain as much as the other members. Zapdos has however other things going for it outside of BP chains, but its importance in such teams should be enough to promote it to A rank.

Smeargle usually gets one or two turns, but it can entirely make or break the game with those. It has the perk of being able to switch into Aegislash if its sash is intact thanks to its Ghost immunity and use it as set-up bait, which is huge. Come into Aegislash, use the appropriate move (Spore/Ingrain/Encore/Quiver Dance) depending on the situation and get out of there.
It's also a decent lead against teams that have no Spore absorbers. Like Zapdos, Smeargle is also usable outside of BP chains. I would say B- is an appropriate rank.

I don't have much time so I'll post my thoughts on the other members later, right now these are the ranks I would suggest:

Scolipede -> A
Espeon -> A
Sylveon -> A
Zapdos -> A
Vaporeon -> B-
Smeargle -> B-
Mr. Mime -> C-

Mr. Mime is shit. It's as niche as you can get and should stay in D.
Scoli deserves a promotion because it's useful elsewhere and basically makes BP what it is. I've been trying to get it to A- for ages.
Vaporeon is medicore. Doesn't really deserve to move up imo. If it weren't for BP it wouldn't be ranked at all I don't think.
Sylveon is too mediocre to move up, and it would look pretty silly being anywhere in the A ranks.
Zapdos is fine in A-, it's settled in well there alongside Latias and Mandibuzz who all have their pros and cons over one another.
Espeon is absolutely atrocious outside BP but makes BP itself playable, could get a bump up.

That's my bleak take on the matter anyway.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

The C Rank is kind of a mess right now, there are a lot of pokemon in there that really are heavily outclassed or just don't have a niche. To start, I agree with removing Jirachi completely. Do we even have to run through why the king has fallen, yet again? It is the most nerfed pokemon coming out of BW OU, all of it's old sets range from unusable to mediocre, it doesn't check or counter anything prominent, it's Knock Off bait, it's Pursuit bait, it can't do anything to deter Aegislash etc. Jirachi has no place right now.

Celebi for D Rank. If that. What does Celebi do again? As far as I know it's outclassed by a bulky grass type by Mega-Venusaur, Ferrothorn and to a lesser extent, Amoonguss. It's typing for a wall right now is just shitty to have, you're taking Talonflame's Brave Birds harder, you're taking Aegislash's Shadow Balls harder, you're having to avoid pursuit traps, Knock Off, U-Turns. I don't see why you'd really want a Celebi on your team right now, but feel free to correct me If I'm wrong on this one.

Goodra for C Rank. It's been brought up a few times recently and I completely agree with it. Goodra is just mediocre to me, and I could even go lower than this probably. Lack of recovery hurts it as a wall and while it has nice offensive coverage, it lacks power and ends up walled far too often.

Vaporeon for C- Rank? D Rank? Removal? Yeah, never really seen or heard about what niche Vaporeon can perform. Same goes for Snorlax for that matter. As the meta has adapted to Chansey Stall, the same surge in ways to deal with Chansey affect Porygon2, and Snorlax as well. Yeah, never really seen or heard about what niche Snorlax can perform.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Vaporeon for C- Rank? D Rank? Removal? Yeah, never really seen or heard about what niche Vaporeon can perform. Same goes for Snorlax for that matter. As the meta has adapted to Chansey Stall, the same surge in ways to deal with Chansey affect Porygon2, and Snorlax as well.

Baton fucking Pass.

 

[steviestar]

I support Goodra moving to D. It's outclassed by basically every OU dragon, even when used defensively because of the bulky roost Dragonite set. It's weak, slow, has no support moves outside of generic shit like Toxic, and is pretty vulnerable on the physical side for a defensive pokemon. Sap Sipper and Gooey are neat but don't match up with Dragonite's Multiscale or Latias's Levitate. Honestly, after it falls out of OU next month I wouldn't be surprised if its OU analysis was rejected and it was removed from this thread altogether lol.

Also I don't see much point in moving the BP pokemon up when BP is just going to get nerfed anyway... it's a lot of pointless discussion for something that won't matter in a few days (hopefully)

 

[Talpr0ne]

Jirachi has to be ranked because it was S rank in BW2, so newer XY players looking at this thread will know that it's no longer any good. If we had an E rank Jirachi would have been perfect for it, but it's not the case, so D rank is appropriate for now. Goodra can also go in D rank (or also E rank if it becomes a thing) because what does it accomplish in the current meta that isn't done better by Lati@s or Dragonite is beyond me.

 

[Redolent]

Jirachi having a huge number of resistances and so on counts for little in this metagame because it's a Steel type, and the metagame is offensively completely built around the types that break through Steels. Pretty much any Pokémon that has coverage is going to have a Fire, Ground or Fighting move, and Jirachi is weak to two of these and neutral to the other. Its typing is very similar to Aegislash, except worse. I don't think it's completely useless, just because that 60% chance to score a double hit with Iron Head is so ridiculous, and it does have an impressive support movepool. A Jirachi completely flinched its way through my max/max Impish Hippowdon not too long ago which was both very frustrating and kind of impressive, and I don't think it's rare for Jirachi to turn match-ups on their head like that. I've never found a good use for it personally, but I think it's just above the cut off for not being considered viable at all. It is pretty difficult to switch into due how unpredictable it can be. D rank seems reasonable.

As for the Baton Pass thing, the Baton Pass staples would probably be extremely dominant in the metagame if there wasn't such a stigma against using them among serious players, so any attempt to rank them may be skewed. Espeon definitely needs to be ranked the highest, it is the only Pokémon that I would say a Baton Pass chain literally cannot be genuinely successful without (Scolipede is not as essential as people make it out to be). Vaporeon is definitely up there as pretty much the only defense passer that can really stomach hits from the strongest physical attackers in the tier (Charizard X, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir). Smeargle is unparalleled as an emergency backup with Spore, not to mention that Ingrain passing is essential for taking heat off Espeon in certain match-ups. The others I wouldn't say are quite as important - Togekiss can do a lot of the same things Sylveon does, Mr. Mime is there to counter moves most teams don't even have and Zapdos is generally outclassed as a pure Speed passer by Scolipede, but obviously when taken as a unit they all work extremely efficiently.

 

[alexwolf]

I support Goodra moving to D. It's outclassed by basically every OU dragon, even when used defensively because of the bulky roost Dragonite set. It's weak, slow, has no support moves outside of generic shit like Toxic, and is pretty vulnerable on the physical side for a defensive pokemon. Sap Sipper and Gooey are neat but don't match up with Dragonite's Multiscale or Latias's Levitate. Honestly, after it falls out of OU next month I wouldn't be surprised if its OU analysis was rejected and it was removed from this thread altogether lol.

Also I don't see much point in moving the BP pokemon up when BP is just going to get nerfed anyway... it's a lot of pointless discussion for something that won't matter in a few days (hopefully)

We don't know when and if Baton Pass teams will get nerfed, and why not focus our discussion on those important Pokemon when most other important Pokemon have been ranked correctly anyway?

 

[Ninja Charizard]

My gods please stop talking about Jirachi. People have been talking about it non-stop for 3 pages. If there are so many people who think it can be used, then put it on D and move on.

Seriously, talk about something else.

 

[Flamer]

Didn't get any discussion going because of the shitfests that were the Clefable and Jirachi discussions so...

Nominating Shuckle for B--B Rank.

I know a lot of people will disagree with this but, like Deo-D, not much can stop Shuckle from setting up both SR and SW. Unlike Deo-D, Shuckle can take so many more hits due to its invested defences (Washtom 3hkos, for example). Not only that, it supports Bisharp even more as SW lowers speed meaning that Bisharp does not have to rely on (Suck)er Punch as much. Combine that with a decent support movepool not limited to Encore, Infestation, Power Split, Toxic and you have an amazing Hazard setter. To the people saying "It's outclassed by Deoxys-D though", not really. Better typing, better bulk and Sticky Web carve out a very respectable niche for itself, C+ is underselling it too much.

 

[Imagine_Greater]

Shuckle can also be a decent shell smasher (contrary obviously), because once settup with +3 defenses and anything immune to toxic gone, its defense sweep city from there. I do realize that phazing ruins this but you can toxic oj the predicted roar, whirlwind, dragon tail, etc. And just stall them out.

 

[Halcyon.]

I'm so ridiculously against raising viability of Pokemon like Vaporeon and Smeargle because of Baton Pass. It's not a legitimate strategy and I don't think it's something the community should be encouraging players to use by saying "yeah Espeon is great! Use it on a Baton Pass team and it's a b+ threat!" It's like how, originally, Swagger was a moveset on Klefki's analysis. Yeah it can work but it's a gimmick. That's all Swagger ever was and that's all Baton Pass ever was. We as the most well known and respected competitive Pokemon community shouldn't be recognizing strategies like Baton Pass any more that we should be advocating SwagPlay.

I mean this is an incredibly biased opinion-based statement so the leaders of this thread can do what they thing is best. I'm just saying that I disagree with it.

 

[Mood4food77]

Shuckle should be B- at the lowest. After using, I will say it's probably the best HO hazard setter after Deoxys. What separates it from Deoxys though it's the ability to set up it's teammates through other means, specifically Encore and Infestation. Because of it's awesome bulk, it can trap and force something to use certain moves, like locking Thundurus into Thunderbolt for your Landorus-I or locking Mandibuzz into Defog for Bisharp. It sets up set-up sweepers better than Deoxys could. It gives one of your Pokemon a free set-up turn.

Now compared to other Sticky Web users, he has much, much, MUCH more bulk than any of them. He probably has more bulk than every other Sticky Web user combined. Also, outside of Smeargle, he's the only Sticky Web user that can use another hazard and thankfully, it's the most reliable one in Stealth Rocks. Because of this, you can actually choose which hazard your team will benefit more from and not get fucked over by a team with Bisharp.

Because of Sturdy and his bulk, he is never OHKO'd by random bullshit either. This means that he can afford to run Mental Herb so that he can at least 1 hazard up without being taunted. This is the main reason to use him over Smeargle as fast taunters won't fuck him over.

Because of the lack of offensive presence, he makes a great sleep absorber and works very well as a defensive pivot. Is he a world beater? No, but I think he's definitely good enough to be a presence that can turn the tides in a match that nothing else can hope to accomplish. His lack of non defense stats holds him back on top of his slight problem with MSS. He's not Aegislash that can fit onto every fucking team in existence but Shuckle does have a very good role in OU and should be ranked accordingly. B-.

 

[koista12]

I'm so ridiculously against raising viability of Pokemon like Vaporeon and Smeargle because of Baton Pass. It's not a legitimate strategy and I don't think it's something the community should be encouraging players to use by saying "yeah Espeon is great! Use it on a Baton Pass team and it's a b+ threat!" It's like how, originally, Swagger was a moveset on Klefki's analysis. Yeah it can work but it's a gimmick. That's all Swagger ever was and that's all Baton Pass ever was. We as the most well known and respected competitive Pokemon community shouldn't be recognizing strategies like Baton Pass any more that we should be advocating SwagPlay.

I mean this is an incredibly biased opinion-based statement so the leaders of this thread can do what they thing is best. I'm just saying that I disagree with it.

By no means am I a great player, but if Baton pass was such a gimmick, why would you have to nerf it? Its not like swagger, which is luck based, Baton Pass is viable strategy and from what I hear pretty good. ive fought several Baton Pass teams at around 1550 (I know, Im not a good player) and they were pretty good. I dont see how it is a gimmick.

However, i do agree with you in not raising pokemon like Mr Mime and Vaporeon, because they have no niche outside BP, and that will most likely be nerfed soon.

 

[Halcyon.]

By no means am I a great player, but if Baton pass was such a gimmick, why would you have to nerf it? Its not like swagger, which is luck based, Baton Pass is viable strategy and from what I hear pretty good. ive fought several Baton Pass teams at around 1550 (I know, Im not a good player) and they were pretty good. I dont see how it is a gimmick.

However, i do agree with you in not raising pokemon like Mr Mime and Vaporeon, because they have no niche outside BP, and that will most likely be nerfed soon.

It is absolutely luck based. It's luck based because you win if your opponent doesn't have a counter to it and lose if they do. That's the luck involved.

It's a gimmick for the same reason. Any team that tries to play off the fact that some teams are not prepared for a threat because it is too obscure is, in my opinion, the very definition of a gimmick. And just because something is a gimmick doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. Although if you ask me, I don't think Baton Pass needs to be nerfed, it needs to be banned. It's a cancerous "strategy" that has no place in any sort of competitive environment.

But that's not the point of this thread. I'm not going to advocate for Lucario to go to B+ because MCBarrett lost to a Scarf Lucario with Stone Edge. That would be stupid. I feel the same about Baton Pass. Just because it does well on the ladder because it's an outlier in terms of what is prepared for doesn't mean it's a good strategy or legitimate in the slightest. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should raise Espeon or Scolipede's ranking.

 

[Mikasa]

IMO bias against BP doesn't belong in this thread, if it's viable the core Pokémons of the strategy (Scolipede and Espeon) needs to get a high rank it's as simple as that, doesn't matter if you find BP uncompetitive, broken, boring or even gay, the thread to talk about it's supposed brokennes (which by the way I agree that it needs to be nerfed) was closed and here we should discuss what is viable, without any bias involved.

With that said my only concern with giving Espeon the high rank he deserves by being the bringer of Full BP is that newcomers may think he is a good Pokémon when in fact he is very mediocre outside of the full BP archetype.

 

[Gary]

It is absolutely luck based. It's luck based because you win if your opponent doesn't have a counter to it and lose if they do. That's the luck involved.

It's a gimmick for the same reason. Any team that tries to play off the fact that some teams are not prepared for a threat because it is too obscure is, in my opinion, the very definition of a gimmick. And just because something is a gimmick doesn't mean it shouldn't be nerfed. Although if you ask me, I don't think Baton Pass needs to be nerfed, it needs to be banned. It's a cancerous "strategy" that has no place in any sort of competitive environment.

But that's not the point of this thread. I'm not going to advocate for Lucario to go to B+ because MCBarrett lost to a Scarf Lucario with Stone Edge. That would be stupid. I feel the same about Baton Pass. Just because it does well on the ladder because it's an outlier in terms of what is prepared for doesn't mean it's a good strategy or legitimate in the slightest. And it certainly doesn't mean that we should raise Espeon or Scolipede's ranking.

Echoing this post. I'm not ranking BP staples higher for the same reason we never ranked Klefki and Liepard higher when SwagPlay was still a legitimate strategy. SwagPlay was also a legitimate strategy, much like BP, but it wasn't at all a "viable" strategy in the slightest because it was entirely based on the flip of a coin. Yeah sure lots of people managed to get high on the ladder with it, but that's all because of how easy it was to basically put yourself in a position where all the luck was in your favor. However, the point is, no matter how low of percentage your opponent had at breaking out of confusion, every single turn was still all in the hands of RNG, AKA not a competitive strategy.

BP on the other hand isn't really RNG based as much as it is entirely match up reliant. It doesn't matter how good of a player you're facing or how well their team is built. If they don't have something like Haze Quag, SD Mega Hera, NP Taunt Thundy, asskrow, or something really dumb like Shedninja, as long as you aren't a complete idiot and misplay a bunch (which is so easy not to do) you're pretty much always going to win. On the other hand, if your opponent does have one of these things, you're pretty much always going to lose. BP isn't successful because it's good, it's successful because it's so gimmicky and stupid that no one tries to prepare for it, which is why it does so well on the ladder. Now if everyone did run these things, BP would become completely obsolete and would probably never see the light of day again. It's not something where a bad matchup can still result you in a win or vice versa. It's not on the same level as stall vs Lando offense, where stall still has the possibility of winning depending on how you play around it. No. With BP you're either always going to win or always going to lose. There's things that stop that strategy dead in its tracks, and no matter what you do there's absolutely no way to play around it. How can you possibly consider that a good strategy, and worth bumping up a Pokemon as shitty as Espeon all the way up to the upper rankings? I don't care if Espeon makes BP viable. Klefki was pretty much the only reason SwagPlay was such a force when it was around, but we never ranked that higher now did we? Why? Because it was a gimmicky, unreliable strategy, just like BP.

Anyways, I don't care if people want to bump up BP mons, I refuse to do it. I know alexwolf would like to see it done here but if he wants to do that then he can go right ahead, but I know how we're against ranking Pokemon differently on each threads soooo whatever. The VR thread is remaining untouched that's for sure, and I hope this one is too.

With that said, please do NOT go off topic, this post was not meant to derail the thread. If it continues to spiral into a BP discussion I will have Subject 18 delete the posts. Just know that whatever happens to BP after the council decision, nothing in the rankings will change because of it, other than the removal of Mr Mime from D rank because it will no longer have an analysis if BP is nerfed (and if there wasn't a rule stating Pokes with analysis have to be ranked, I wouldn't have ranked Mime in the first place regardless of BP niche).

If you have concerns with this, PM me, do not complain in this thread.

 

[alexwolf]

Baton Pass teams are not gimmicks. They are an absolutely serious plastyle that takes advantage of how little viable ways there are to combat them. The only reason they are frowned upon and are viewed as gimmicks is because they are not enjoyable to play with or against for most players. That's all there is to it really.

And don't even compare them to SwagPlay. SwagPlay was banned because it was uncompetitive not because it was overpowered, which Baton Pass teams obviously are, sweeping most teams without dedicated counters to them relatively easily.

Klefki and co were never ranked too high in the viability ranking thread because of how much of a luck factor was involved when using those Pokemon. In one game Klefki could be awesome and game changing and in another one a complete waste of time.

Baton Pass teams on the other hand are absolutely reliable and will get you definite results if you know how to use them, which is not that hard. That's the difference. Baton Pass teams are much more viable than SwagPlay teams because they are much more reliable and consistent, to the point where a good player can trash almost any kind of team with little effort, save for few teams with multiple checks / counters, against which Baton Pass teams still have a legitimate chance of winning.

Just because we hate those kind of teams (let's face it, most of us do), doesn't mean we shouldn't give them their proper ranking. Just because they are unhealthy for the metagame doesn't mean we should rank them lower than they should be just to avoid encouraging new players from using them. Our job is to rank them based on their viability in the current OU metagame, and right now, Baton Pass teams are one of the strongest playstyles in OU, if not the strongest.

 

[NoahStar]

I have to agree with Alex. BP chains are annoying as hell but they are in no way comparable to SwagPlay. Gary2346 , you are letting your bias get in the way of the purpose of this thread; to rank Pokemon on their viability in the current meta (viability does not always mean it's good, healthy, or not broken--which BP definitely is).

Yes, Espeon is shit outside of BP teams. However it still has a niche of being the reason BP teams are good in the first place and there is absolutely no denying that said niche exists. No matter what you, me, or 99% of the meta thinks about BP chains, the niche is still there and, as Alex said, BP teams are one of the best playstyles out there right now.

That being said, I think that Espeon deserves to sit at a B Rank until BP chains are either banned or nerfed as it serves a very unique niche and is by definition viable (capable of working successfully). If/when BP is nerfed or banned, then we can unrank Espeon altogether.

 

[skies]

Can Roserade drop to C- or even D Rank? It's complete and utter shit and it has not served me of any use in any of my battles testing it. It has lower stats than Mega Venusaur everywhere bar Speed and Special Attack by only three points. 90 Speed isn't as amazing as it used to and Roserade has terrible bulk to take hits, 105 SpD is decent, but it's hampered by 60 HP, along with a middling 55 Defense. Roserade's main niche has always been setting Toxic Spikes, but honestly, that's just bad nowadays, with Excadrill and Defog being so present, it really doesn't matter as much as it used to. Only 12 of all S, A+, A, and A- Pokemon care about Toxic Spikes and are even impacted by it. It lost that niche, and what it does have is Technician Hidden Power, which is cool I guess, but it's not enough to save it from being walled with that horrid type coverage. With Hidden Power Ground it's left walled by Skarmory, with Fire, it's walled by Heatran, it's not that hard to switch into and I've failed to ever have issues with it, I've seen it maybe once in all my battles, and it was a shit team in the low 1200s anyways. It struggles against all priority, except Azumarill I guess. It has three very common weaknesses - Fire-, Ice-, and Flying-type weaknesses, and now with Rain died down from last generation, it can't even sponge their special hits. Sleep Powder is now available alongside Toxic Spikes and Spikes, but Roserade is just not good anymore. It's not Gen 4 anymore and Roserade does not belong with Pokemon like Tornadus and Magnezone, it belongs with shit like Jirachi and Cloyster, both formerly good Pokemon, but lost effectiveness as the metagame adapted.

Another Pokemon I'd like to bring up is Goodra. Goodra was considered amazing, one of the best special walls, and very powerful at the start of the generation, and from the look of its stats, it certainly appeared to be! But now that the metagame has settled down, people are realizing how shit this thing is. It's outclassed by virtually every Dragon-type Pokemon, from Garchomp, to Latios, to Kyurem-B, and defensively, Latias, Chansey, and Clefable put it to shame. It's physical bulk is pissy and its Special Attack is just not great. It has a wide movepool, but it's not enough to save this Pokemon. It just is kind of there, and is a waste of a teamslot, constantly being outshined. This is my input, please look at these very well written posts explaining Goodra for C-, D, or Unranked.

Is Goodra really worth the slot nowadays? Almost everything it would like to wall is walled better by CBBNite (bulky Nite) who has Roost and Extreme Speed, which matters a lot when checking or outright countering offensive threats. Goodra cannot come in on Landorus consistently, especially with repeated U-turns. Aegislash, especially mixed variants, can wear away at Goodra very easily and also endures hazard damage much better than Goodra. YZard only beats Dragonite with Dragon Pulse, while Goodra can fall to both Dragon Pulse and even lol Flare Blitz. What's that, Dragonite is quad weak to Ice, has an SR weakness, and is crippled by burn? Dragonite can actually beat HP Ice Thundurus one on one by tanking even LO HP Ice and KOing with Dragon Claw + ESpeed, and can even beat Protean LO Greninja one on one if Multiscale intact. Even though Goodra isn't weak to SR, its lack of reliable recovery means it won't get that health back in a hurry, or at all considering how easy it is to force out these days. Burn also depletes Goodra's health quickly in the same fashion as Mega Venusaur, except Goodra seems to be even more screwed over. Hmm, RainRest Goodra can fix its survivability issues? Perhaps, but this eats up on Goodra's valuable coverage and also deprives Goodra of Fire coverage, leaving it more easily walled, more easily taken advantage of, and less likely to retaliate back well, not to mention Sand screws this Goodra over. Like, I get Goodracan be effective, but is there much merit to using this over Dragonite at all (inb4 Sylveon Florges comparison)?

This wasn't addressed in the update, but I completely support Punchshroom that Goodra should be lower than C+ if it's going to stay ranked at all. Goodra might have been good in another generation, but the metagame has adapted to be completely hostile to it. Although it attempts to be a tank that can absorb special hits, it's lack of recovery makes it worn down extremely easily. Against stall it's easy to cripple with status, and lacks the offensive presence to do anything. Hell, even against Offense, its tank set doesn't hit that hard at all, and is easily checked. It's choice specs set is pretty terrible, as its super easy to revenge kill, and very slow. Because it's fairly easy to wall, and because it lacks any good support moves outside of toxic, I can't see much of a reason to use Goodra ever, and think it should be at mostC-/D.

Summary:
Roserade a shit ----> C- / D
Goodra a bigger shit ----> C- / D / Unranked

Also, quick question, did Goodra ever serve a stint in A rank during the beginning of the generation? I thought it did but am unsure about this.