Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[alexwolf]

I just deleted a bunch of posts talking about Chansey vs Blissey and about lower ranks in general, due to lack of substance and one liners with zero relevant arguments. Please guys, if you want to suggest a rank for a Pokemon, provide valid competitive reasoning. Also, no more Chansey vs Blissey discussion, thx!

Also, here are the latest changes:

Thundurus-T: B- ---> C+
Mega Ampharos: C+ ---> B-
Goodra: C+ ---> C-
Celebi: C+ ---> C-
Kyurem: C+ ---> C-
Crobat: C ---> Unranked
Froslass: Unranked ---> C-

(i will implement the changes during the next day)

I want you guys to focus on those changes for the next days, and if Mega Aggron and Shuckle should go up to B-, always with good arguments, otherwise your post will surely get deleted and infractions might follow. Also, i will talk with Gary and see which of those changes will be final. That is all.

 

[SomeDrunkRockLee]

Mega-Aggron:
Advantages:
- Can reliably rock
- Decent offensive capabilities + thunder wave make it hard to set up on
- Physical Bulk + Decent Defensive Typing

Disadvantages:
- Takes up the mega slot
- No reliable recovery
- If running Rest/Talk, can become set up fodder/stop momentum; in this case also suffers from 4MSS, so generally no usable recovery
- Relies on wish passing to alleviate health loss/cleric to eliminate status (namely burn; paralysis can be annoying but generally doesn't affect it a whole lot, whereas with sleep you'd generally have to fodder it with something (or run a status absorber alongside) and pretty much everything that doesn't run Sacred Fire or some shit struggles with Freeze hax.

Aggron is decent at keeping up momentum thanks to Thunder Wave crippling many potential switch ins, and attacks like Iron Head and Earthquake preventing set up. If needed he can also keep set up sweepers at bay with Dragon Tail or Roar as well. He can set Stealth Rocks against almost any physical attacker in OU, and support the team through doing so. Additionally, Aggron is one of the best knock off sponges around, taking pittance from even the likes of Choice Band Bisharp or Crawdaunt.

However, Aggron uses your mega slot. As a mega, he really provides only two (and a half) things: Stealth Rocks and defensive presence. Both can be achieved by many other walls which can do more: Skarmory can do both, while also Spike and Defog. Additionally, skarm, like Aggron, can also phaze. Ferrothorn is also able to Spike and Rock, carries Thunder Wave like Aggron, and can spread leech seed. While Aggron is marginally better at keeping up an offensive presence, he is outclassed by other Rockers in this regard as well: Landorus-Therian and Tyranitar both outclass it in this regard.

Mostly M-Aggron is a middle of the road Pokemon, able to do several things but nothing (aside from take Knock Off/Physical Hits in general) exceptionally well, and it's physical bulk isn't by itself a ticket to viability (Just look at Dusclops). It also takes up the valuable mega slot and struggles with common Pokemon (Rotom-W fears nothing from it's standard set except it getting rocks up... and potentially Dragon Tail, although it's rare; Zapdos can come in on sets lacking a rock type move [fairly rare] and defog, while Mega Scizor can do the same at the expense of possible paralysis. Lando-T fears nothing especially from M-Agg, and can rock as well. Finally, myriads of Pokemon can take a thunder wave and become near-perfect switch ins for the rest of the game, including Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and most other non-steel weak flying/levitate mons). For these reasons, I think that Aggron should remain in C+ tier.

 

[Rosen]

Mega Ampharos: C+ ---> B-
.

IT'S ABOUT TIME.

Also, regarding Mega Aggron, I don't really think it should go up much higher than C+. It's basically a slightly buffed Skarmory that can't remove hazards and takes up your Mega slot. It's a wicked physical wall no doubt, but that's all it does is WALL. It doesn't really have much of a niche over Skarmory, and really doesn't do a whole lot better than the bird besides tank hits.

Shuckle tho is literally impossible to OHKO unboosted, and has a metric fuckton of options. Stick Web is IMO crap, but it can ToxicTrap with Toxic + Infestation, and Contrary + Shell Smash requires a super effective crit to take down if it's also packing Rest. It just has so many good options out there. Shuckle for B- you don't fuckle with shuckle

 

[TFL]

Alexwolf wanted actual "substance". *Skip this post if you have knowledge of the metagame*

Tornadus C -> D/Unranked
From what I've seen, there are two types of viable Rain teams: the offensive ones that only utilize Politoed for Rain and the Hyper Offensive teams that use Politoed + another dedicated Rain Dance user (these stack Swift Swim Pokemon). Okay, now why the heck would you use Tornadus over its Therian forme or Deoxys-S for setting Rain? Sure it has prankster, but its already fast enough to set it up without much difficulty and if bulk is a problem then you can just use Tornadus-T, which sticks around much longer thanks to Regenerator and can actually switch into attacks. Tornadus just screams completely outclassed, so much so that I don't understand why it has an analysis.

Mega Aggron C+ -> C
I'm just going to use other C+ mons for comparison: There's Entei, Klefki, Krookodile, Shuckle, Haxorus.. Aggron is just not as viable as any of them. Why? It checks/counters some pretty big mons like Pinsir, Mawile, and many others that aren't worth mentioning, because plenty of other Pokemon can wall them too. Now, lets get down to why it isn't good. Aggon has no means of reliable recovery, the attacks it uses makes it walled by just so many common OU Pokemon (gives up too many free turns), especially if not running an Offensive team, and there are other Pokemon that can wall most of the Pokemon that Aggron can cover. There's just too big an opportunity cost that comes with Aggron too (also takes up a Mega slot, preventing you from running the other, better Megas).

Kyurem C- -> D/Unranked
Kyurem's in the same boat as Tornadus, there's seriously no real reason to use it. Of all the stall breakers viable in OU, why use Kyurem? It isn't a good breaker this gen. and there's plenty of stall teams that can outright deal with it and then it is borderline useless against offensive teams. It doesn't have its brother's offensive presence, meaning there's just a lot of things that can switch in without taking too much damage and force it out. Kyurem's also pretty weak to hazards and doesn't threaten its setters enough.

tl;dr: No justifiable reason to use this over Landorus-i, Kyurem-Black, Gengar, Suicune, etc. for stall breaking or whatever you are trying to use it for.

Gourgeist-XL C -> Unranked
Its analysis is rejected, its completely outclassed by Gourgeist-Small, and on top of that, it doesn't fit into the metagame. See this post for more details. I'm not going to rehash what's already been said.

Abomasnow (-Mega) -> D/Unranked
"With Abomasnow gaining a Mega Evolution this generation, Mega Abomasnow manages to be one of the best wallbreakers to use with its access to a powerful Blizzard." That's from the analysis. Abomasnow can't even do that properly, it's hardcountered by common stall Pokemon like Chansey, Special Defensive Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Aegislash. More things to add: Abomasnow's weaknesses are also too common for it to properly switch in, Mamoswine is a better user of Ice Shard, extremely slow and gets outsped and damaged by nearly the entire tier, its ability is pretty much useless this generation (for OU), and it takes up a Mega slot that could be used for something good. Its pretty much Kyurem, but far worse... -_-

Moltres -> D/Unranked
Picture Talonflame without anything that makes it good, here it is, Moltres! This thing was usable and not that bad when Mega Lucario and Genesect were in the tier, but they aren't anymore. Its analysis has some SubToxic set that gets walled by many Pokemon and has even more switch ins. I have yet to see even an average player use Moltres. It just doesn't fit the metagame, what's not to get?

Snorlax -> D/Unranked
Snorlax has been promoted as a Charizard Y switch in, but it comes with sacrificing reliable recovery and still has the same issue as Chansey: It's screwed over by Pursuit. One could also use Goodra, which is still more effective than Snorlax. The teams Snorlax fits in to are few and far between, while still not being the best. And it has competition for its very niche role. Snorlax is cool and all, but it just isn't worth listing.

Blissey -> D/Unranked
Just read the thread.
Something else to add is that its main move, Flamethrower, isn't as useful as it was last generation, where you can speed creep CB Scizor and net a surprise KO. Normal Scizor is no longer common and instead you have to deal with its much faster Mega.

Shuckle
Shuckle is better than every other C+ Pokemon and most mons in B-, but I'm fine with it staying here, because of the posts in the Ubers viability thread. Sticky Web is in itself niche and you have to dedicate an entire team around it for it to be worth using. Sticky Web is also less effective than it is in Ubers - because of the metagame right now, you've got less room for diversity when using Shuckle.

There's more to cover, but these Pokemon stuck out more than the others to me.

I don't see why we have to makes these long posts about Pokemon that are widely known, especially among good players, to be bad/unviable. I'm seriously stating the obvious here. Any way we can give control of this thread to Gary? :)

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Abomasnow (-Mega) -> D/Unranked
it's hardcountered by common stall Pokemon like Chansey

unless your name is keldeo, kyogre or any psyshock user that applies to every single special attacker in the game

and blizzard 2hko's specially defensive skarmory btw

 

[QuickBH]

unless your name is keldeo, kyogre or any psyshock user that applies to every single special attacker in the game

Then I would use Keldeo, Knock Off Landorus, Kyurem-B, or even Infernape over this thing if I wanted to wallbreak through stall, not Mega Abomasnow. So the point still stands that it can't do it's job properly.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Alexwolf wanted actual "substance". *Skip this post if you have knowledge of the metagame*

Tornadus C -> D/Unranked
From what I've seen, there are two types of viable Rain teams: the offensive ones that only utilize Politoed for Rain and the Hyper Offensive teams that use Politoed + another dedicated Rain Dance user (these stack Swift Swim Pokemon). Okay, now why the heck would you use Tornadus over its Therian forme or Deoxys-S for setting Rain? Sure it has prankster, but its already fast enough to set it up without much difficulty and if bulk is a problem then you can just use Tornadus-T, which sticks around much longer thanks to Regenerator and can actually switch into attacks. Tornadus just screams completely outclassed, so much so that I don't understand why it has an analysis.

Mega Aggron C+ -> C
I'm just going to use other C+ mons for comparison: There's Entei, Klefki, Krookodile, Shuckle, Haxorus.. Aggron is just not as viable as any of them. Why? It checks/counters some pretty big mons like Pinsir, Mawile, and many others that aren't worth mentioning, because plenty of other Pokemon can wall them too. Now, lets get down to why it isn't good. Aggon has no means of reliable recovery, the attacks it uses makes it walled by just so many common OU Pokemon (gives up too many free turns), especially if not running an Offensive team, and there are other Pokemon that can wall most of the Pokemon that Aggron can cover. There's just too big an opportunity cost that comes with Aggron too(also takes up a Mega slot, preventing you from running the other, better Megas).

Kyurem C- -> D/Unranked
Kyurem's in the same boat as Tornadus, there's seriously no real reason to use it. Of all the stall breakers viable in OU, why use Kyurem? It isn't a good breaker this gen. and there's plenty of stall teams that can outright deal with it and then it is borderline useless against offensive teams. It doesn't have its brother's offensive presence, meaning there's just a lot of things that can switch in without taking too much damage and force it out. Kyurem's also pretty weak to hazards and doesn't threaten its setters enough.

tl;dr: No justifiable reason to use this over Landorus-i, Kyurem-Black, Gengar, Suicune, etc. for stall breaking or whatever you are trying to use it for.

Gourgeist-XL -> Unranked
Its analysis is rejected, its completely outclassed by Gourgeist-Small, and on top of that, it doesn't fit into the metagame. See this post for more details. I'm not going to rehash what's already been said.

Abomasnow (-Mega) -> D/Unranked
"With Abomasnow gaining a Mega Evolution this generation, Mega Abomasnow manages to be one of the best wallbreakers to use with its access to a powerful Blizzard." That's from the analysis. Abomasnow can't even do that properly, it's hardcountered by common stall Pokemon like Chansey, Special Defensive Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Aegislash. More things to add: Abomasnow's weaknesses are also too common for it to properly switch in, Mamoswine is a better user of Ice Shard, extremely slow and gets outsped and damaged by nearly the entire tier, its ability is pretty much useless this generation (for OU), and it takes up a Mega slot that could be used for something good. Its pretty much Kyurem, but far worse... -_-

Moltres -> D/Unranked
Picture Talonflame without anything that makes it good, here it is, Moltres! This thing was usable and not that bad when Mega Lucario and Genesect were in the tier, but they aren't anymore. Its analysis has some SubToxic set that gets walled by many Pokemon and has even more switch ins. I have yet to see even an average player use Moltres. It just doesn't fit the metagame, what's not to get?

Snorlax -> D/Unranked
Snorlax has been promoted as a Charizard Y switch in, but it comes with sacrificing reliable recovery and still has the same issue as Chansey: It's screwed over by Pursuit. One could also use Goodra, which is still more effective than Snorlax. The teams Snorlax fits in to are few and far between, while still not being the best. And it has competition for its very niche role. Snorlax is cool and all, but it just isn't worth listing.

Blissey -> D/Unranked
Just read the thread.
Something else to add is that its main move, Flamethrower, isn't as useful as it was last generation, where you can speed creep CB Scizor and net a surprise KO. Normal Scizor is no longer common and instead you have to deal with its much faster Mega.

Shuckle
Shuckle is better than every other C+ Pokemon and most mons in B-, but I'm fine with it staying here, because of the posts in the Ubers viability thread. Sticky Web is in itself niche and you have to dedicate an entire team around it for it to be worth using. Sticky Web is also less effective than it is in Ubers - because of the metagame right now, you've got less room for diversity when using Shuckle.

There's more to cover, but these Pokemon stuck out more than the others to me.

I don't see why we have to makes these long posts about Pokemon that are widely known, especially among good players, to be bad/unviable. I'm seriously stating the obvious here. Any way we can give control of this thread to Gary? :)

Pokemon with analyses have to be ranked. That includes every Pokemon you mentioned, barring Gourgeist-XL, who actually fits the definition of D rank perfectly. Not to mention, Blissey is OU, so again, it has to be ranked. Pokemon with rejected analyses don't have to be removed for the sake of it - many have a niche and fit the definitions of C or D rank, and yet aren't good enough for analyses. All of the Pokemon you mention have a niche they perform decently/well. They all 1) cannot be unranked, and 2) shouldn't be unranked. The question isn't "would I want to use this on a normal team?," it's "can this Pokemon do something useful?" Either that, or having it be BL.

 

[Jaguar360]

Alexwolf wanted actual "substance". *Skip this post if you have knowledge of the metagame*

Tornadus C -> D/Unranked
From what I've seen, there are two types of viable Rain teams: the offensive ones that only utilize Politoed for Rain and the Hyper Offensive teams that use Politoed + another dedicated Rain Dance user (these stack Swift Swim Pokemon). Okay, now why the heck would you use Tornadus over its Therian forme or Deoxys-S for setting Rain? Sure it has prankster, but its already fast enough to set it up without much difficulty and if bulk is a problem then you can just use Tornadus-T, which sticks around much longer thanks to Regenerator and can actually switch into attacks. Tornadus just screams completely outclassed, so much so that I don't understand why it has an analysis.

Mega Aggron C+ -> C
I'm just going to use other C+ mons for comparison: There's Entei, Klefki, Krookodile, Shuckle, Haxorus.. Aggron is just not as viable as any of them. Why? It checks/counters some pretty big mons like Pinsir, Mawile, and many others that aren't worth mentioning, because plenty of other Pokemon can wall them too. Now, lets get down to why it isn't good. Aggon has no means of reliable recovery, the attacks it uses makes it walled by just so many common OU Pokemon (gives up too many free turns), especially if not running an Offensive team, and there are other Pokemon that can wall most of the Pokemon that Aggron can cover. There's just too big an opportunity cost that comes with Aggron too(also takes up a Mega slot, preventing you from running the other, better Megas).

Kyurem C- -> D/Unranked
Kyurem's in the same boat as Tornadus, there's seriously no real reason to use it. Of all the stall breakers viable in OU, why use Kyurem? It isn't a good breaker this gen. and there's plenty of stall teams that can outright deal with it and then it is borderline useless against offensive teams. It doesn't have its brother's offensive presence, meaning there's just a lot of things that can switch in without taking too much damage and force it out. Kyurem's also pretty weak to hazards and doesn't threaten its setters enough.

tl;dr: No justifiable reason to use this over Landorus-i, Kyurem-Black, Gengar, Suicune, etc. for stall breaking or whatever you are trying to use it for.

Gourgeist-XL -> Unranked
Its analysis is rejected, its completely outclassed by Gourgeist-Small, and on top of that, it doesn't fit into the metagame. See this post for more details. I'm not going to rehash what's already been said.

Abomasnow (-Mega) -> D/Unranked
"With Abomasnow gaining a Mega Evolution this generation, Mega Abomasnow manages to be one of the best wallbreakers to use with its access to a powerful Blizzard." That's from the analysis. Abomasnow can't even do that properly, it's hardcountered by common stall Pokemon like Chansey, Special Defensive Skarmory, Mega Scizzor, and Aegislash. More things to add: Abomasnow's weaknesses are also too common for it to properly switch in, Mamoswine is a better user of Ice Shard, extremely slow and gets outsped and damaged by nearly the entire tier, its ability is pretty much useless this generation (for OU), and it takes up a Mega slot that could be used for something good. Its pretty much Kyurem, but far worse... -_-

Moltres -> D/Unranked
Picture Talonflame without anything that makes it good, here it is, Moltres! This thing was usable and not that bad when Mega Lucario and Genesect were in the tier, but they aren't anymore. Its analysis has some SubToxic set that gets walled by many Pokemon and has even more switch ins. I have yet to see even an average player use Moltres. It just doesn't fit the metagame, what's not to get?

Snorlax -> D/Unranked
Snorlax has been promoted as a Charizard Y switch in, but it comes with sacrificing reliable recovery and still has the same issue as Chansey: It's screwed over by Pursuit. One could also use Goodra, which is still more effective than Snorlax. The teams Snorlax fits in to are few and far between, while still not being the best. And it has competition for its very niche role. Snorlax is cool and all, but it just isn't worth listing.

Blissey -> D/Unranked
Just read the thread.
Something else to add is that its main move, Flamethrower, isn't as useful as it was last generation, where you can speed creep CB Scizor and net a surprise KO. Normal Scizor is no longer common and instead you have to deal with its much faster Mega.

Shuckle
Shuckle is better than every other C+ Pokemon and most mons in B-, but I'm fine with it staying here, because of the posts in the Ubers viability thread. Sticky Web is in itself niche and you have to dedicate an entire team around it for it to be worth using. Sticky Web is also less effective than it is in Ubers - because of the metagame right now, you've got less room for diversity when using Shuckle.

There's more to cover, but these Pokemon stuck out more than the others to me.

Disagreeing with Tornadus. Tornadus is stronger than his Therian forme and can run a physical set much better despite lacking Regenerator. It also has Prankster Taunt and Rain Dance is still incredibly important for rain teams. Now you may ask, why use Tornadus over Thundurus then? Honestly, there isn't much reason to other than having better STAB to use. Flying is better than Electric in this metagame thanks to having no immunities and more weaknesses to exploit, but it's not that much better to be fair. These are a few sets I would run on Tornadus in OU:
Tornadus
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Acrobatics
Tornadus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe (may not be an optimized spread)
Naive Nature
- Knock Off/U-turn
- Taunt
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast/U-turn/Grass Knot
Tornadus @ Damp Rock/Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Rain Dance
- Taunt/Knock Off/U-turn
- Hurricane
- Knock Off/U-turn/Focus Blast
The thing about Thundurus is that it really doesn't have much room for this stuff. It is choosing between Taunt, Nasty Plot, T-Wave, Volt Switch, Hidden Power and such while Tornadus pretty much knows what he needs for his sets. That's not much over his brother, but it's something and does not make Tornadus any less usable in OU. Tornadus deserves C or maybe C-, as it is only marginally outclassed.

 

[Red Cat]

I really think that Mega Ampharos needs to go back to C+. It has too many flaws to make it worth using over the many good Mega Evolutions out there. It has terrible speed which means it's obviously not sweeping. It has no reliable recovery which makes it a shitty wall. It has good bulk, but weaknesses to common Ground, Dragon, and Fairy type attacks really sucks. 165 base Special Attack is good, but it is not that great offensively since it has no Life Orb, no reliable STAB with more than 90BP, and no reliable way of boosting. The pink Pokemon (Chansey, Clefable, and Sylveon) easily wall it. Almost every defensive Pokemon which invests in Special Defense and is not weak to its STABs or Focus Blast can wall it. This includes things like Specially Defensive Hippowdon which gives you an idea how weak Mega Ampharos really is. It also can't OHKO some offensive threats such as Landorus-I which can switch in, tank a hit and force Mega Ampharos out. Also, Mold Breaker is almost a completely useless ability on it.

Its best use may be as a pivot, but it is easily worn down and doesn't have enough power to make every switch in count. If you want to use your mega slot on a bulky Dragon, Mega Garchomp is bulkier and faster than Mega Ampharos and gets Draco Meteor while not being weak to Ground type attacks. Almost any mega is a better use of your mega slot than Mega Ampharos. There just aren't enough good reasons to use it to justify a B- ranking.

 

[Rosen]

I really think that Mega Ampharos needs to go back to C+. It has too many flaws to make it worth using over the many good Mega Evolutions out there. It has terrible speed which means it's obviously not sweeping. It has no reliable recovery which makes it a shitty wall. It has good bulk, but weaknesses to common Ground, Dragon, and Fairy type attacks really sucks. 165 base Special Attack is good, but it is not that great offensively since it has no Life Orb, no reliable STAB with more than 90BP, and no reliable way of boosting. The pink Pokemon (Chansey, Clefable, and Sylveon) easily wall it. Almost every defensive Pokemon which invests in Special Defense and is not weak to its STABs or Focus Blast can wall it. This includes things like Specially Defensive Hippowdon which gives you an idea how weak Mega Ampharos really is. It also can't OHKO some offensive threats such as Landorus-I which can switch in, tank a hit and force Mega Ampharos out. Also, Mold Breaker is almost a completely useless ability on it.

Its best use may be as a pivot, but it is easily worn down and doesn't have enough power to make every switch in count. If you want to use your mega slot on a bulky Dragon, Mega Garchomp is bulkier and faster than Mega Ampharos and gets Draco Meteor while not being weak to Ground type attacks. Almost any mega is a better use of your mega slot than Mega Ampharos. There just aren't enough good reasons to use it to justify a B- ranking.

Reserved for ranting on why I disagree.

 

[Rotosect]

Alexwolf wanted actual "substance". *Skip this post if you have knowledge of the metagame*

Tornadus C -> D/Unranked
From what I've seen, there are two types of viable Rain teams: the offensive ones that only utilize Politoed for Rain and the Hyper Offensive teams that use Politoed + another dedicated Rain Dance user (these stack Swift Swim Pokemon). Okay, now why the heck would you use Tornadus over its Therian forme or Deoxys-S for setting Rain? Sure it has prankster, but its already fast enough to set it up without much difficulty and if bulk is a problem then you can just use Tornadus-T, which sticks around much longer thanks to Regenerator and can actually switch into attacks. Tornadus just screams completely outclassed, so much so that I don't understand why it has an analysis.

Mega Aggron C+ -> C
I'm just going to use other C+ mons for comparison: There's Entei, Klefki, Krookodile, Shuckle, Haxorus.. Aggron is just not as viable as any of them. Why? It checks/counters some pretty big mons like Pinsir, Mawile, and many others that aren't worth mentioning, because plenty of other Pokemon can wall them too. Now, lets get down to why it isn't good. Aggon has no means of reliable recovery, the attacks it uses makes it walled by just so many common OU Pokemon (gives up too many free turns), especially if not running an Offensive team, and there are other Pokemon that can wall most of the Pokemon that Aggron can cover. There's just too big an opportunity cost that comes with Aggron too (also takes up a Mega slot, preventing you from running the other, better Megas).

Kyurem C- -> D/Unranked
Kyurem's in the same boat as Tornadus, there's seriously no real reason to use it. Of all the stall breakers viable in OU, why use Kyurem? It isn't a good breaker this gen. and there's plenty of stall teams that can outright deal with it and then it is borderline useless against offensive teams. It doesn't have its brother's offensive presence, meaning there's just a lot of things that can switch in without taking too much damage and force it out. Kyurem's also pretty weak to hazards and doesn't threaten its setters enough.

tl;dr: No justifiable reason to use this over Landorus-i, Kyurem-Black, Gengar, Suicune, etc. for stall breaking or whatever you are trying to use it for.

Gourgeist-XL C -> Unranked
Its analysis is rejected, its completely outclassed by Gourgeist-Small, and on top of that, it doesn't fit into the metagame. See this post for more details. I'm not going to rehash what's already been said.

Abomasnow (-Mega) -> D/Unranked
"With Abomasnow gaining a Mega Evolution this generation, Mega Abomasnow manages to be one of the best wallbreakers to use with its access to a powerful Blizzard." That's from the analysis. Abomasnow can't even do that properly, it's hardcountered by common stall Pokemon like Chansey, Special Defensive Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Aegislash. More things to add: Abomasnow's weaknesses are also too common for it to properly switch in, Mamoswine is a better user of Ice Shard, extremely slow and gets outsped and damaged by nearly the entire tier, its ability is pretty much useless this generation (for OU), and it takes up a Mega slot that could be used for something good. Its pretty much Kyurem, but far worse... -_-

Moltres -> D/Unranked
Picture Talonflame without anything that makes it good, here it is, Moltres! This thing was usable and not that bad when Mega Lucario and Genesect were in the tier, but they aren't anymore. Its analysis has some SubToxic set that gets walled by many Pokemon and has even more switch ins. I have yet to see even an average player use Moltres. It just doesn't fit the metagame, what's not to get?

Snorlax -> D/Unranked
Snorlax has been promoted as a Charizard Y switch in, but it comes with sacrificing reliable recovery and still has the same issue as Chansey: It's screwed over by Pursuit. One could also use Goodra, which is still more effective than Snorlax. The teams Snorlax fits in to are few and far between, while still not being the best. And it has competition for its very niche role. Snorlax is cool and all, but it just isn't worth listing.

Blissey -> D/Unranked
Just read the thread.
Something else to add is that its main move, Flamethrower, isn't as useful as it was last generation, where you can speed creep CB Scizor and net a surprise KO. Normal Scizor is no longer common and instead you have to deal with its much faster Mega.

Shuckle
Shuckle is better than every other C+ Pokemon and most mons in B-, but I'm fine with it staying here, because of the posts in the Ubers viability thread. Sticky Web is in itself niche and you have to dedicate an entire team around it for it to be worth using. Sticky Web is also less effective than it is in Ubers - because of the metagame right now, you've got less room for diversity when using Shuckle.

There's more to cover, but these Pokemon stuck out more than the others to me.

I don't see why we have to makes these long posts about Pokemon that are widely known, especially among good players, to be bad/unviable. I'm seriously stating the obvious here. Any way we can give control of this thread to Gary? :)

I would suggest you lurking around a bit more before suggesting such drastic drops on pokemon that are perfectly viable in the metagame, if flawed enough to be around C rank.
Kyurem has just been dropped (again? seriously?) but its Substitute set is still a pain to deal with, Mega Abomasnow is the mega of choice for Trick Room teams and it's a very strong wallbreaker in its own right, Blissey has just been discussed, Gourgeist-XL has an important niche as a defensive grass type with its underrated Frisk ability which can put you a step ahead your opponent more often than you could imagine and Tornadous-I is one of the best manual rain setter in the game, an important role now that perma-rain is gone.
Moltres I could agree with as it has competition from Charizard.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I would suggest you lurking around a bit more before suggesting such drastic drops on pokemon that are perfectly viable in the metagame, if flawed enough to be around C rank.
Kyurem has just been dropped (again? seriously?) but its Substitute set is still a pain to deal with, Mega Abomasnow is the mega of choice for Trick Room teams and it's a very strong wallbreaker in its own right, Blissey has just been discussed, Gourgeist-XL has an important niche as a defensive grass type with its underrated Frisk ability which can put you a step ahead your opponent more often than you could imagine and Tornadous-I is one of the best manual rain setter in the game, an important role now that perma-rain is gone.
Moltres I could agree with as it has competition from Charizard.

I've personally not seen a Trick Room team in a very, very long time, but even then I doubt many use Abomasnow over Mawile. Mawile, unlike Abomasnow, isn't weak to everything; especially Mach Punch, Bullet Punch and Brave Bird; has similar bulk, has fuckhueg attack, and while it's not a mixed attacker, that doesn't really matter when it's so hard to wall anyway.

Gourgeist-XL has a ton of competition from Gourgeist-Small. That speedy Will-o-Wisp is super great and is what prevents tons of stuff from threatening it, like Bisharp and Tyranitar.

Agree on Tornadus. Prankster is really, really good.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Oh yeah I was just about ready to nom Blissey for D Rank, thanks for bringing that up.

Anyways, I'm going to second Blissey dropping down to D Rank. The reason for this is that it is almost completely and utterly outclassed by its pre-evolution, Chansey. Chansey has quite a bit more bulk than Blissey, so it walls the same things Blissey does, but better. Chansey also provides the same support that Blissey does, since it's in the same evolutionary line as it, they have the same things. However, Chansey is bulkier, and although it's not that bulky physically, the extra bulk allows it to endure the odd physical hit when needed. If you're going to give me Knock Off as an argument, allow me to just say that neither of the blobs should be in on any of the relevant Knock Off users barring probably the forces of nature (ie Landorus/Thundurus). Blissey is also almost just as crippled by Knock Off as Chansey, since Knock Off strips Blissey of Leftovers recovery, which is the one reason one would ever use Blissey over Chansey. Even being able to run special attacks isn't worth it, since it's just so weak, and depending on which one you'd ever run, you're probably going to be taken advantage of by something. My point is, Blissey's few advantages over its pre-evolution simply aren't enough to save it from being horribly outclassed.

All in all, I simply don't really see much of a reason to use Blissey in OU right now. Everything Blissey could be used for, Chansey does that better. Blissey just doesn't really have any niche to fulfill right now, which is why it should be in D Rank.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Latias to A(neutral A) Rank
So basically, I feel as Latias should be neutral A rank like it's brother.
Below are some IRC logs to read up on that kind of explained where this came from

irc logs

07:39alexwolfi dont have a prob with latias to a, but i think that latios is more useful the majority of the times
07:39alexwolfhealing wish is the reason to use latias, and healing wish is kinda situational in that it doesnt fit in all teams
07:40alexwolfunlike latios which fits on basically any offensive or bulky offensive team
07:40CherubAgentYeah its A- material
07:40Oiawesomelatios is great on like hyper offense but latias is important to balance
07:40CherubAgentFor sure
07:40CherubAgentFlcls team isnt even balance
07:40Oiawesomeand offense
07:40Oiawesomeyeah I know it's offensive sash spam
07:40OiawesomeI;m just saying it does well on balance too
07:41Oiawesomethe bulk is also really important
07:42Oiawesomeswitch in on keld, threaten it, then healing wish to weakened shit
07:42Oiawesomeit's also a great way to dodge pursuit
07:42alexwolfyeah this i agree with ojawesome
07:43alexwolfits a neat way to make sure that latias wont be useless even if it gets trapped
07:43OiawesomeI can't even remember who first called me
07:43Oiawesomeoj awesome
07:43OiawesomeI think it was audiosurfer
07:43alexwolfpresonally, i like healing wish a lot, but i think that latias is a bit less easier to fit on teams and thus deserves to be a rank lower
07:44Oiawesomelatios is amazing but I always find myself using latias cause it just checks shit a lot more consistently and it can ensure the defog in more cases
07:44alexwolfbut the argument that latias is more bulkier and checks more shit could be relevant enough to pump latias a rank so i suggest you make a post about it
07:45alexwolfto start some discussion

Anyways, onto the actual explanation: There are 2 things Latias has over it's brother- Healing Wish and The bulk to consistently be able to check important threats in the metagame.

Latias is an amazing user of Defog on Balance, Sash Spam, Offense and even some Hyper Offense due to it's access to healing wish. Healing Wish is a miraculous move that allows Latias to sacrifice itself for the greater good of the team. Not only this but it can also use it as a way around pursuit. Also, Latias can use it's great extra bulk to ensure defogs in more situations.

There are 2 Latias spreads: Life Orb Number bulky latias: 76 Hp/180 SpA/252 Spe or the more popular- as used in Dance Like You Wanna Win! by FLCL - 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe the more offensive spread which lets it ohko lando-i for sure with draco. The Bulky Spread lets it abuse it's bulk more in order to check things like Specs Keld or Charizard Y. Latias is also an amazing tool vs Charizard Y team, while of course being aware of a possible Pursuit set up.

It also beats all but the 1st 2 in S rank and it beats a plethora of things in A rank such as non scarf Garchomp, Mega Saur, Mega Charizard Y, Terrakion and Keldeo

Overall with Healing Wish + Defog letting it be one of the most important defoggers and support mons out there and it's extraordinary bulk over latios letting it consistently check things latios can't makes it very important that Latias is represented as it really is: An A rank mon

 

[Gary]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-6#post-5476113

Massive update to the lower ranks. Hopefully they're less shit now.

 

[Baharoth]

Overall with Healing Wish + Defog letting it be one of the most important defoggers and support mons out there and it's extraordinary bulk over latios letting it consistently check things latios can't makes it very important that Latias is represented as it really is: An A rank mon

Are there things that Latias checks and Latios cant? I am not so sure about that tbh. Lando-I without Knock off, Keldeo, Charizard Y are the top threats Latios is usually used to check and he checks them very well. From the top of my head i cant think of anything that Latias could take on and Latios cant. Latios takes a bit more dmg from attacks but since he avoids the 2hko thats fine and he does more dmg which is usually better. Imo if you want a solid check to those things your better of running Latios with Recover instead of Latias with Healing Wish. I wouldnt mind promoting Latias if there are things he can do that his brother cant, Healing Wish alone isnt enough though especialy because both twins have heavy 4mss so fitting it in isnt easy as there are lots of good alternatives.

 

[Durant]

Nominating Rhyperior for C+ rank.

Why? Well Rhyperior was mostly used to counter bird spam but now that bird spam has died down his niche isn't as important as it was anymore. It is a solid Pokemon with high stats and good STAB attacks in Stone Edge and Earthquake that can also set up Stealth Rock but it just isn't as good as it was a while ago. It also still has the problems it always had like low special defense, a lack of reliable recovery and a weakness to Grass and Water attacks which are pretty common.

 

[alexwolf]

Made all the changes that took place in Gary's thread. Keep on talking about the Pokemon that changed ranks.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Are there things that Latias checks and Latios cant? I am not so sure about that tbh. Lando-I without Knock off, Keldeo, Charizard Y are the top threats Latios is usually used to check and he checks them very well. From the top of my head i cant think of anything that Latias could take on and Latios cant. Latios takes a bit more dmg from attacks but since he avoids the 2hko thats fine and he does more dmg which is usually better. Imo if you want a solid check to those things your better of running Latios with Recover instead of Latias with Healing Wish. I wouldnt mind promoting Latias if there are things he can do that his brother cant, Healing Wish alone isnt enough though especialy because both twins have heavy 4mss so fitting it in isnt easy as there are lots of good alternatives.

• 

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- 87.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (45 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 123-146 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

• 

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 200-236 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 172-204 (56.9 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and last but not least
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-315 (87.7 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-286 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-286 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(avoids the OHKO from knock off)

these are just examples

 

[The Fennec Fox]

Oh yeah I was just about ready to nom Blissey for D Rank, thanks for bringing that up.

Anyways, I'm going to second Blissey dropping down to D Rank. The reason for this is that it is almost completely and utterly outclassed by its pre-evolution, Chansey. Chansey has quite a bit more bulk than Blissey, so it walls the same things Blissey does, but better. Chansey also provides the same support that Blissey does, since it's in the same evolutionary line as it, they have the same things. However, Chansey is bulkier, and although it's not that bulky physically, the extra bulk allows it to endure the odd physical hit when needed. If you're going to give me Knock Off as an argument, allow me to just say that neither of the blobs should be in on any of the relevant Knock Off users barring probably the forces of nature (ie Landorus/Thundurus). Blissey is also almost just as crippled by Knock Off as Chansey, since Knock Off strips Blissey of Leftovers recovery, which is the one reason one would ever use Blissey over Chansey. Even being able to run special attacks isn't worth it, since it's just so weak, and depending on which one you'd ever run, you're probably going to be taken advantage of by something. My point is, Blissey's few advantages over its pre-evolution simply aren't enough to save it from being horribly outclassed.

All in all, I simply don't really see much of a reason to use Blissey in OU right now. Everything Blissey could be used for, Chansey does that better. Blissey just doesn't really have any niche to fulfill right now, which is why it should be in D Rank.

Let me just add on that Chansey is actually the one affected by Knock Off more. Blissey can simply Soft Boiled or Wish back to health and still have her amazing bulk. But Chansey actually loses the bulk instead. So Chansey and Blissey might as well be on the same level here.

 

[Red Cat]

Now that Gary2346 provided an explanation for why Mega Ampharos was raised to B-, I'm going to bash it some more.

Gary2346 said the Agility set is underrated, but it just isn't that good. Even at +2 speed, it is still easily revenge killed by many common Scarfers like Garchomp and Excadrill. Both Landorus forms, Mega Gardevoir, and Mega Mawile are examples of offensive Pokemon who can tank a hit from Mega Ampharos and OHKO in return. The Agility set is useless against stall too. If you want a fast special sweeper, you are better off using Rock Polish Landorus or even a gimmick like Flame Charge Mega Charizard Y both of which are faster and hit harder.

The RestTalk set which he talked about also isn't that good. RestTalk sucks in general because you only get two other moves, you can only use Rest once every 3 turns, you only have a 2/3 chance of attacking when using Sleep Talk which is worse than Focus Blast, and you have only a 1/3 chance of getting the move you actually want. There are a lot of bulky tanks which can make use of RestTalk, but they are not ranked very high because RestTalk isn't reliable recovery. If you really want to go the RestTalk route and are willing to use your mega slot on one, use Mega Garchomp which is faster, bulkier, and hits harder in general.

In short, Mega Ampharos is outclassed in most of its roles and doesn't belong any higher than C+.

 

[jbtc10]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-6#post-5476113

Massive update to the lower ranks. Hopefully they're less shit now.

I've honestly never faced Moltress once in OU since Gen 6 started. A 4x SR weakness is a complete disaster for anything that doesn't have something major to make up for it. Moltress has almost nothing to make up for that whatsoever. Articuno isn't ranked, and they are basically in the same boat in terms of why they just don't work. The existence of Charizard is enough to render it pretty much obsolete, who can do anything Moltress can, but way better. I'd unrank it, personally.

It's a pretty agreed upon fact that Goodra is bad, and no-one will ever use it in a serious game because there is no good reason at all to do so because there are just so many other pokemon that are simply way better than it. C- seems more realistic than C, and I personally would keep going all the way to D. It should have dropped into UU by now, because it can't really function at all in OU. Honestly, I'd sooner use Crobat (who was de-listed) than this thing, because at least it's damn fast and can hit hard with banded Brave Birds and bypass subs. Also, I disagree about it being less niche than Cresselia. At least Cress can counter Lando-I and Mega Medicham, has reliable recovery and more support moves like T-Wave and Dual Screens. Goodra hardly has any meaningful niche I can think of.

Gastrodon pretty much has 1 niche, which is getting burned by Rotom Wash. Rotom-W is nowhere near defining enough to warrant using something like this on your team, and its usage has been dropping a lot because frankly, it's just an average OU pokemon. Ferrothorn outclasses it as a Rain counter and isn't bad against most other teams. D rank is more fitting than C-.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Goodra is kind of a jack of all trades, master of absolutely nothing. It's always annoying to face, because it's coverage is good, it has three useful abilities, an usable SpAtk, and it's SpDef is very high. But it's worn down really fast, has no form of recovery so it can't wall, can barely OHKO anything in the tier and is paper to physical attackers. It's bad, but it's not "useless" bad, just... mediocre. It can be fit into a team and have good synergy with it, but most of the time the most it will be able to do is weaken something your team fears, then die and make that thing easier to revenge kill.

I'd keep it in the ranks, but it should never go above C+. But I think D is too harsh for it.

 

[Baharoth]

OiawesomeDG I know those calcs, i ve made them myself before writing my post and i dont find them very convincing tbh. With Leftovers or Recover Latios checks just as well as Latias does. Ok without recovery Latias can probably switch in one more time, though even that depends on the dmg rolls and whether or not SR is on the field. With SR neither of them can switch in twice to take an attack. Not beeing 2hkoed doesnt realy matter as Latios outspeeds both Keldeo and Charizard so he will force them out/kill them before they can get their second attack off. Barely surviving Knock Off after SR isnt bad i guess but it doesnt help much either.

@ below, Latios can run HP fighting as well, thats nothing unique to Latias and therefor no reason to promote it.

 

[Poek]

I agree with Latias going back to A rank. Also, it doesnt have to be killed by bisharp, since it can have hp fighting, which OHKOes bisharp and 2HKOes ttar if it isn't specially defensive (252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 203-244 (50.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) . If you see a bisharp in the other team just draco and then hp fighting, since they'll most likely pursuit because people still don't know they can have HP fighting. I usually run it and I've had great experiences with it.

@above, someone can expect HP fighting on latios, while latias only use to have 2 moves and Healing wish + defog so it isn't that common on latias.