You're right, there are better Arceus types to use for a support Arceus. However, in terms of the Calm Mind set, what distinguishes Steel Arceus from the rest is His immunity to Toxic. This means He can't be put on a timer, and can stay in and sweep teams for as long as He wants. And let's not forget about the Swords Dance set, which is helpful in the late game. What makes Steel Arceus shine is not His ability to sweep, but the fact that His eleven resistances allow Him to survive long enough to do so. I'm not saying Steel is the best offensive type, but in terms of viability, I think that His current rank of B- is sufficient for now.
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Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]
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I'm going to agree with this. Also I'm going to apologize in advance if I bring something up that was mentioned as I'm still reading through all of the thread. Anyways, the decrease in physical bulk on Mewtwo Y actually can be detrimental to the point that it does require some team support. Using a mega stone on Mega Mewtwo Y means that you end up lacking a Life Orb or another item that can be used on Mewtwo, either to hit harder or help provide team support respectively. The stat buffs it gets are a plus no arguing this, but it can be difficult to fully utilize against more offensive teams in the metagame. Granted it's a mix of the practical use in battle as well as how certain mons fit the criteria for ranking, but I'll just use the ranking criteria to argue a few points for now.
"S Rank
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They barely require support, if any, from the team and have immense utility to offer."
The bold is where I feel Mewtwo Y can shine. It has the potential to offer massive offensive output with Calm Mind boosts but in terms of defensive capabilities it can become a problem if it's forced to play mind games with Sucker Punch M-Kanga or Yveltal and in general doesn't want to be taking hits from M-Blaziken after +1 speed boost, and E-speed Arceus in general. Specially defensive is where it can shine but most people know that's already the case and will exploit Y's weak physical bulk before trying to take on Y's special bulk. The opportunity cost is debatable as like most situations it depends on team build and the direction of the match for the most part but I'll elaborate on this last point. This last point, "They barely require support, if any", is in my own personal opinion somewhat false. The fact that Mewtwo Y has problems against strong priority users, suffers from 4MSS, and provides only a couple of sets in terms of utility purposes alone makes the S rank on this individual Mega a bit of a stretch.
"A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility."
Mewtwo Y for the most part deserves more of an A+/A rank. It is still very excellent at what it does but still requires team support to make this possible. Its impressive specially defensive capabilities as mentioned allows it to take a decent special hit or two and with its impressive offensive capabilities it has the potential to take a couple mons out all before going down. Mewtwo Y does indeed have little opportunity cost when it's flaws are appropriately covered and Mewtwo Y is I believe one of the mons considered when one needs a very powerful special sweeper/wallbreaker. Mewtwo Y requires little support to function in the terms that it doesn't necessarily need another mon's capabilities to function at what it does best. Both its Calm Mind variants alongside the Rest+Insomnia combo are significant utility that have its purpose and Mewtwo Y can fulfill those roles very well.
I know that as of right now we're not classifying the individual Mega Evolutions separately in terms of rank. Those were just a few points I wanted to bring up for Mewtwo Y in case we do rank seperately for Megas in the future, and in general just to bring about more constructive discussion.
Since Mewtwo is functioning under one entity in this, which is the way I think it should be, then it is pretty clear why it is S Rank as it has NO perfect initial checks before you figure out what set it is running weather it be the brutality of Life Orb, the stupid wall breaking ability of MMX, the speedy MMY, or the defensive versions of any of the three. Here is an example since they aren't all that obvious:
Defensive Ho-Oh is arguably one of the best initial switch ins to Mewtwo when Stealth Rock isn't on the field:
Defensive Ho-Oh is arguably one of the best initial switch ins to Mewtwo when Stealth Rock isn't on the field:
- Vs Psycho Killer MMY: Ho-Oh has no problem checking this
- Vs Stalltwo Y : Ho-Oh has no issues checking this
- Vs Lure MMY: Sh*t, Ho-Oh just got set up for a 2HKO or just got OHKOed by rocks and Stone Edge coming off of base 150 Atk
- Vs LO Psycho Killer Mewtwo: Sh*t, Ho-Oh just got set up for a 2HKO from Psystrike or just got OHKOed after rocks
- Vs Classic Stalltwo: Ho-Oh has trouble checking this if rocks are on the field
- Vs Specially Biased Mixed MMX: Ho-Oh shouldn't have an issue checking this
- Vs Physically Biased MMX: Ho-Oh better not get hit with a rock move next turn or I'm gonna sh*t myself
- Vs Stalltwo X: Ho-Oh should have no trouble checking this
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PRAISE BASED FIREBARN!
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A few small suggestions:
Arceus-Grass for B+/A-. There's a lot of arguments for it in this thread already, and because I don't have much experience using it in stall recently, I won't go too into it. Basically, if Arceus-Fairy is B+, the this should be too.
Giratina-O for B-. When have you ever seen this thing used well this gen? I guess it has a niche in Defoging, but Arceus does that a lot better and if you want a Defog-er that's not Arceus, you usually use Scizor or Rapid Spin anyway. I look at Giratina-O and the Pokemon around it in B and it's worse than all of them.
Landorus-T for A. Reasons mentioned in this thread. Still an extremely useful mon however, and I'd oppose anything to make it to down further. I just don't think it does it jobs as well as the rest of A+.
Scizor for staying at least A rank. Extremely useful mon for role compression, pretty much the sole reason why many balance/stall teams not using Defog Arceus can function. Most of the hate in this thread seems to come from expecting Scizor to do too much, and metagame specialization. Scizor's a glue Pokemon, you simply cannot just slap it on a team an expect it to perfectly check Extremekiller, Xerneas, Mega Gengar, and also Defog with reliable recovery. The EVs and moveslots simply don't exist, rather you have to tailor Scizor for your team's needs. I'd actually prefer this mon to stay in A, but I don't mind A-, as long as it stays in A-rank as a whole.
Deoxys-N for Chansey rank. Pretty much fits perfectly lol.
Skarmory for B-. I think this mon is pretty underrated, it checks -most- Ekiller, can Spike, and also Defog. You can even use Whirlwind or Brave Bird to discourage Mega Gengar.
Arceus-Grass for B+/A-. There's a lot of arguments for it in this thread already, and because I don't have much experience using it in stall recently, I won't go too into it. Basically, if Arceus-Fairy is B+, the this should be too.
Giratina-O for B-. When have you ever seen this thing used well this gen? I guess it has a niche in Defoging, but Arceus does that a lot better and if you want a Defog-er that's not Arceus, you usually use Scizor or Rapid Spin anyway. I look at Giratina-O and the Pokemon around it in B and it's worse than all of them.
Landorus-T for A. Reasons mentioned in this thread. Still an extremely useful mon however, and I'd oppose anything to make it to down further. I just don't think it does it jobs as well as the rest of A+.
Scizor for staying at least A rank. Extremely useful mon for role compression, pretty much the sole reason why many balance/stall teams not using Defog Arceus can function. Most of the hate in this thread seems to come from expecting Scizor to do too much, and metagame specialization. Scizor's a glue Pokemon, you simply cannot just slap it on a team an expect it to perfectly check Extremekiller, Xerneas, Mega Gengar, and also Defog with reliable recovery. The EVs and moveslots simply don't exist, rather you have to tailor Scizor for your team's needs. I'd actually prefer this mon to stay in A, but I don't mind A-, as long as it stays in A-rank as a whole.
Deoxys-N for Chansey rank. Pretty much fits perfectly lol.
Skarmory for B-. I think this mon is pretty underrated, it checks -most- Ekiller, can Spike, and also Defog. You can even use Whirlwind or Brave Bird to discourage Mega Gengar.
Chesnaught should be C or C+ (or B-?). Effectively a skarmory with different typing, no phazing or roost, but leech seed, and bullet proof with a dark resist makes it check darkrai quite nicely, and is pretty invulnerable versus offensive mega gengar and immunity to aegislash's shadow ball is nice too. So it has a small but appreciable niche.
Also grassceus for at least A- I agree with such a good mon.
Any thoughts on celebi?
Yay grass types lol.
Edit Chesnaught is such a babemon it gets Roar
fuck baton pass
Also grassceus for at least A- I agree with such a good mon.
Any thoughts on celebi?
Yay grass types lol.
Edit Chesnaught is such a babemon it gets Roar
fuck baton pass
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Gengar can just use Sludge Wave, and Chesnaught can't phaze a Sub or really do anything but absorb sleep
Like I said, somehow there exists some notion that Arceus-Fairy is better than Grassceus, but it really isn't. That's why I'm advocating Grassceus stays at the least in the same tier as Fairyceus: both require the same amount of support and check important threats, and Grassceus arguable checks more important Pokemon (please tell me how being able to check mons such as Specs Kyogre, Palkia, Groudon, etc. isn't a significant utility!). In my opinion, either B+ or A- is fine for both Pokemon.Venturi said:
Also, Thunder Wave cripples all those free switch-ins you mentioned.
Um... No? Grassceus is a particularly good Twave user because it scares away Grounds and Electrics and a lot of it's common switch-ins hate Twave. And while Scizor hates WoW more than para, it's still not gonna move 25% of the time and Scizor is a lot easier to check than Blaziken/Ho-Oh/Mega Gengar etc. It's a good move to use instead of WoW, but it's up to player choice.Venturi said:
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Arceus-Grass is grossly underrated, as Fireburn posted earlier role compression is very important in ubers teambuilding. With Arceus-Grass, just off the top off my head, I know that you get a very solid check to top threats such as kyogre, groudon, landorus-t, dialga, and palkia. You also beat common defog arceus forms such as water / rock. You won't find another support pokemon that can fulfill all of these important roles in one slot. Will-O-Wisp can cripple a buttload of pokemon, most noteworthy being set-up sweepers like non-lum sd arceus, annoying steels such as scizor / ferrothorn, and some other support pokemon that hate being burned. In the 4th moveslot slot you can easily slap on a move like stone-edge to lure in ho-oh, defog to clear away hazards, or t-wave to cripple switch ins.
Major Cons:
Mega Gengar bait, although you can contain this by playing well + pursuit support.
Ho-Oh Bait - Running Stone edge is an option, it's also a good idea to have a good sr setter + flying resist.
Overall I feel like Arceus-Grass is really good on stall teams, balance builds with kyogre + scizor, and also pursuit t-tar / aigislash balance teams due to it's niche as valuable support pokemon that can check a multitude of important threats and spread status. There's no reason it should be at Low B Rank behind stuff like Genesect & Sylveon, High B to Low A for sure, although personally I think B+ is more fitting.
Major Cons:
Mega Gengar bait, although you can contain this by playing well + pursuit support.
Ho-Oh Bait - Running Stone edge is an option, it's also a good idea to have a good sr setter + flying resist.
Overall I feel like Arceus-Grass is really good on stall teams, balance builds with kyogre + scizor, and also pursuit t-tar / aigislash balance teams due to it's niche as valuable support pokemon that can check a multitude of important threats and spread status. There's no reason it should be at Low B Rank behind stuff like Genesect & Sylveon, High B to Low A for sure, although personally I think B+ is more fitting.
Just to state a fun fact, grasseus cannot afford to run stone edge without being set up bait for too many other options
Judgment/grass knot is mandatory to deal with ogre/groudon and grass weak friends.
Recover is self explanatory and a must.
Defog is also a must since if you're running balanced/stall which are the only teams that would run grasseus, they will need a defogger and whatever the fuck else is on your team will have a far harder time/can't defog so thus mandating it.
That leaves a 4th slot which is pretty much forced to be toxic or will o miss since you without either you're set up bait for the likes of ekiller, cm arceus, and friends. You simply cannot afford to run eq or stone edge because the opportunity cost is too fucking high.
Judgment/grass knot is mandatory to deal with ogre/groudon and grass weak friends.
Recover is self explanatory and a must.
Defog is also a must since if you're running balanced/stall which are the only teams that would run grasseus, they will need a defogger and whatever the fuck else is on your team will have a far harder time/can't defog so thus mandating it.
That leaves a 4th slot which is pretty much forced to be toxic or will o miss since you without either you're set up bait for the likes of ekiller, cm arceus, and friends. You simply cannot afford to run eq or stone edge because the opportunity cost is too fucking high.
Bringing up one of my previous posts; my opinions about these Pokemon still stand and Grass Arceus in particular seems to be discussed pretty hotly.
So yeah, I'm strongly advocating Grassy for B+ due to reasons delineated above. I actually feel it's marginally more useful than Fairyceus. Notably, its Ground- and Electric-type resistances are often overlooked. It's also a brilliant Defogger, effectively runs WoW/Toxic/Twave depending on team needs, and along with Waterceus, is pretty much the only Pokemon that can switch decently well into both Groudon and Kyogre. The Fire-weakness and susceptibility to Yveltal and Mega Gengar relative to other Arceus formes prevent it from rising any higher than that, though.
Steel Arceus is really bad; I'm thinking it's C+ at best. CM Steelceus is a legitimate late-game threat, but that is literally the only set worth using, and weaknesses to 3 potent offensive types in Fire, Fighting, and Ground means that that suffers from huge opportunity cost anyway.
Water Arceus really deserves A- ---> A imo for reasons I articulated in the quoted post. It's neutral to almost everything, which is more than most support mons can claim, essentially possessing only one troubling weakness to Electric-types and is the go-to Defogger/pivot for a huge number of balanced builds and many stallish ones as well. As I said, I view Waterceus as an analogue-of-sorts of Dialga in that both have great, irreplaceable niches.
Other proposed changes:
Sylveon: B+ --> B
Solid Yveltal + Palkia check that additionally provides Wish + cleric support. At the same time, it is acutely one-dimensional in the sets it can run, sorely misses the utility of a status move, and faces competition from other Fairies. None of these are Sylveon's faults per se, but it does mean that B+ is a shade too high. Since Fairy Arceus, which offers solid support and is on the whole a far more versatile mon, is getting B+, Sylveon deserves a sub-rank lower.
Reshiram: C --> B-
The Toxic + Roost @ Flame Plate set alone justifies this. It can beat out all common support Arceus barring Rock, can switch in (double or otherwise) on Steel-types barring Heatran, and Draco Meteor + Blue Flare make it far from easy to switch into. The threat of Blue Flare alone forces very predictable switches that can be exploited by strategic doubling. The other sets are pretty shitty (Flame Charge + Roost/Stone Edge/Toxic + STABs is a decent cleaner) but overall C-rank is just unacceptable.
EDIT: Webs setters: C+ --> B-
The fact that Sticky Web is very much relevant in this meta + the fact that Shuckle/Smeargle are indispensable on these teams justifies them getting a B- rank imo. Shuckle is the more reliable setter, but Smeargle offers more utility by way of Spore/Nuzzle/Rapid Spin, so it evens out.
So yeah, I'm strongly advocating Grassy for B+ due to reasons delineated above. I actually feel it's marginally more useful than Fairyceus. Notably, its Ground- and Electric-type resistances are often overlooked. It's also a brilliant Defogger, effectively runs WoW/Toxic/Twave depending on team needs, and along with Waterceus, is pretty much the only Pokemon that can switch decently well into both Groudon and Kyogre. The Fire-weakness and susceptibility to Yveltal and Mega Gengar relative to other Arceus formes prevent it from rising any higher than that, though.
Steel Arceus is really bad; I'm thinking it's C+ at best. CM Steelceus is a legitimate late-game threat, but that is literally the only set worth using, and weaknesses to 3 potent offensive types in Fire, Fighting, and Ground means that that suffers from huge opportunity cost anyway.
Water Arceus really deserves A- ---> A imo for reasons I articulated in the quoted post. It's neutral to almost everything, which is more than most support mons can claim, essentially possessing only one troubling weakness to Electric-types and is the go-to Defogger/pivot for a huge number of balanced builds and many stallish ones as well. As I said, I view Waterceus as an analogue-of-sorts of Dialga in that both have great, irreplaceable niches.
Other proposed changes:
Sylveon: B+ --> B
Solid Yveltal + Palkia check that additionally provides Wish + cleric support. At the same time, it is acutely one-dimensional in the sets it can run, sorely misses the utility of a status move, and faces competition from other Fairies. None of these are Sylveon's faults per se, but it does mean that B+ is a shade too high. Since Fairy Arceus, which offers solid support and is on the whole a far more versatile mon, is getting B+, Sylveon deserves a sub-rank lower.
Reshiram: C --> B-
The Toxic + Roost @ Flame Plate set alone justifies this. It can beat out all common support Arceus barring Rock, can switch in (double or otherwise) on Steel-types barring Heatran, and Draco Meteor + Blue Flare make it far from easy to switch into. The threat of Blue Flare alone forces very predictable switches that can be exploited by strategic doubling. The other sets are pretty shitty (Flame Charge + Roost/Stone Edge/Toxic + STABs is a decent cleaner) but overall C-rank is just unacceptable.
EDIT: Webs setters: C+ --> B-
The fact that Sticky Web is very much relevant in this meta + the fact that Shuckle/Smeargle are indispensable on these teams justifies them getting a B- rank imo. Shuckle is the more reliable setter, but Smeargle offers more utility by way of Spore/Nuzzle/Rapid Spin, so it evens out.
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Scizor is terrible as a defogger due to having little if any safe switchins and suffers from terrible 4mss. In addition to that, it will never get a free turn to actually manage to defog.
Scizor is pretty ass though and the meta hasn't been kind to it. It's literally used for checking two mons (ekiller and deee) both of which commonly run fire moves.
Also grasseus + scizor has shit synergy.
Shit synergy? Sure they share a fire weakness, but Grassceus can deal with what Scizor hates like Kyogre and Ground types, and in turn Scizor can provide Pursuit support. And you also have 4 other mons to consider, Kyogre goes particularly well here for both, and lets Scizor (which as a Pursuit Scizor, should not be expect to check Ekiller) take random Fire-type attacks much easier. I haven't any troubles Defoging with Scizor, but if you want to stick it on Grassceus that's a viable option too.
Scizor is very good on certain stall as it pursuit traps and checks xerneas with bullet punch. Defog is plausible too, although I'd prefer to pair Defog-less Arceus-Grass with some spinner instead of that. On stall it is easier to justify bad synergy between two mons as you can cover holes in your build with additional walls- which is not possible on balance/offense, but that's beside the point as we discuss stall builds.
Furthermore, it's not a fun fact that Grassceus can't afford to run Stone Edge over status because it would be set up bait for E-killer:
0 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 154-183 (40.3 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Meadow Plate Arceus-Grass Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 200 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 154-183 (35.7 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - no one runs this spread
If your definition of set up bait is something like "you can set and almost get 2HKOd in the process while you 2HKO" then I understand this point. CM Arceus aren't going to be Arceus-Grass's expertise to check either, so you will always be more or less bait for them unless you run Toxic- this leaves you much more Scizor prone, unable to burn physical threats you are supposed to check (Zekrom/Lando-T) so the argument you make about CM Arceus is moot.
ps. also stop swearing all the time, if you want to get through to people with your "arguments" then make it look serious at the very least.
I should've nominated this a while ago. I agree with Resh moving up wholeheartedly. As someone who developed and used the ToxicRoost set extensively, it lures out "common" switch-ins such as Waterceus/Rockceus and hits them w/ Toxic. Toxic also forces SDef Ogre to Rest because Scald can't outdamage Roost, allowing a free switch to a threat with proper prediction. If you're not running defensive Kyogre or Rockceus, then you're not switching in to Reshiram easily, as Blue Flare is a nuke (srsly 252+ SpA Flame Plate Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Xerneas: 228-268 (50 - 58.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. not even taking rocks into account) and Draco Meteor is always there to scare standard fire resists like Palkia and Ogre.
This set also provides a pretty decent CM Arceus-Electric (+1 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Reshiram: 119-140 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO while Toxic + 252+ SpA Flame Plate Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Electric: 178-210 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO). Reshiram's Fire typing also provides a useful burn immunity, making it a decent supportceus switch in (takes Scalds nicely too), depending on the spread.
Haban Berry ToxicRoost Resh is p cool because it can lure Palkia.
Other sets like Sunny Day/Beam and LO Roost+3 atks (absolutely wrecks sun teams) are kinda cool too.
Overall, Resh is a bitch to switch in to and provides decent utility, meriting at least B-.
Also, Heatran isn't safe as Turboblaze negates Flash Fire (and Sturdy).
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Resh stays in C-, you cannot make a good team with it. The huge palkia weakness is literally the worst thing you can have, when palkia is easily one of most used mon in meta. The powerful DM isn't that useful with fairies being on every single team. lol Not to mention that a lot of stuff can pull of roost-toxic MUCH better than reshiram. Why use resh to toxic stall when you can use gliscor for example.
Agreed w/ everything being said with Grassceus. And like, I've said before, give it B+.
Scizor is not a bad defogger, so please explain to me why a non-stag weak defogger is bad lol.
Sylveon B+ -> C+
It's blatantly outclassed by spd xern unless you want wish. Sylveon mandates pursuit support unless you're using bp which is still useless since gengar taunts it. While, spd xern 2hkos gengar after sr, so you can hit gengar twice and not worry about the threat.
Waterceus stays at A-
It can "checks" a lot of stuff, but it does the checking terribly, and it's extremely easy to overload it and kinda stag weak. If someone (malefic) wants to argues me on this, just reply to this.
Steelceus stays at B-
It's not a well-explored mon. I guarantee that it's far better than most of you guys perceive it to be. It can do pretty much the exact same thing as poisonceus without any immunity issues, and pull of more unusual roles.
Agreed w/ everything being said with Grassceus. And like, I've said before, give it B+.
Scizor is not a bad defogger, so please explain to me why a non-stag weak defogger is bad lol.
Sylveon B+ -> C+
It's blatantly outclassed by spd xern unless you want wish. Sylveon mandates pursuit support unless you're using bp which is still useless since gengar taunts it. While, spd xern 2hkos gengar after sr, so you can hit gengar twice and not worry about the threat.
Waterceus stays at A-
It can "checks" a lot of stuff, but it does the checking terribly, and it's extremely easy to overload it and kinda stag weak. If someone (malefic) wants to argues me on this, just reply to this.
Steelceus stays at B-
It's not a well-explored mon. I guarantee that it's far better than most of you guys perceive it to be. It can do pretty much the exact same thing as poisonceus without any immunity issues, and pull of more unusual roles.
the reason that roost+toxic resh isn't very good is because it lacks a distinct defensive niche. checking support arceus formes is something many mons with toxic+healing move and decent special bulk can do. i guess checking eleceus is neat but it's really only that I can give it in terms of checking offensive mons.
maybe it's me overrating rest in the current metagame, but I do think a toxic staller prone to toxic is worse than one that can rest off status, which is the case with sdef kia and reshiram. now you mandated yourself heal bell on your team, which is going to make compression utterly ridiculous as you have so many glaring weaknesses. another blatant non-fact in the whole palkia vs reshiram is the whole deterring xerneas from setting up debate. I don't see thunder wave or roar in reshirams movepool and just as offensive resh can do a lot of damage to xerneas in sun, offensive palkia does almost equal damage in rain which is equally common.
as for offense sets- if I ran some kinda dedicated sun offense I don't think there would be space left considering ho-oh is kinda mandatory on those teams.
maybe it's me overrating rest in the current metagame, but I do think a toxic staller prone to toxic is worse than one that can rest off status, which is the case with sdef kia and reshiram. now you mandated yourself heal bell on your team, which is going to make compression utterly ridiculous as you have so many glaring weaknesses. another blatant non-fact in the whole palkia vs reshiram is the whole deterring xerneas from setting up debate. I don't see thunder wave or roar in reshirams movepool and just as offensive resh can do a lot of damage to xerneas in sun, offensive palkia does almost equal damage in rain which is equally common.
as for offense sets- if I ran some kinda dedicated sun offense I don't think there would be space left considering ho-oh is kinda mandatory on those teams.
y ofc
Basically:
On stall builds
Resh lacks defensive synergy, and has no distinct niche.
On offensive builds
You'd be running it on sun and it's probably pretty damn hard although I lack the experience to say too much (surely ho-oh+resh+groudon+ idk palk probably and some other stuff to cover the major weaknesses of that sounds plausible though?)
Sylveon should remain at least where it is atm. On dedicated stall its ability to pass wishes and use it on its own is a reason to use it over xerneas anyway, and the 2 turns every time you heal relying on rng is kinda unhelpful even tho 1 in 3 times u pick aroma, and the one without rest [mblast/twave/aroma/hp fire or maybe roar in there somewhere] doesn't fit well on dedicated stall due to longevity. I don't see any reason to move it down, it's not truly outclassed imo.
Also am I the only one to run perish song grassceus? :3
On stall builds
Resh lacks defensive synergy, and has no distinct niche.
On offensive builds
You'd be running it on sun and it's probably pretty damn hard although I lack the experience to say too much (surely ho-oh+resh+groudon+ idk palk probably and some other stuff to cover the major weaknesses of that sounds plausible though?)
Sylveon should remain at least where it is atm. On dedicated stall its ability to pass wishes and use it on its own is a reason to use it over xerneas anyway, and the 2 turns every time you heal relying on rng is kinda unhelpful even tho 1 in 3 times u pick aroma, and the one without rest [mblast/twave/aroma/hp fire or maybe roar in there somewhere] doesn't fit well on dedicated stall due to longevity. I don't see any reason to move it down, it's not truly outclassed imo.
Also am I the only one to run perish song grassceus? :3
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