Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Rhaegar]

What set(s) do you think justifies this jump? I haven't had any experience with Amoonguss since the weather nerf so I don't know what ev spread they run.

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
252 HP, 88 Def, 168+ SpD
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Foul Play
- Sludge Bomb/Clear Smog

That's the standard moveset. I don't know the standard defense spread. I think it's max SpD, but this is what I run. The set alone wouldn't tell you much though. Maybe search replays of lil manaphy who topped the ladder with Amoonguss on Balance. I'm pretty sure it's what won that team most of its games against Offense.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok so just going to give some quick opinions based on the title of this thread.

Breloom: Honestly, I would be fine with this thing moving to A Rank. The Focus Sash set is just that good. With Focus Sash intact, it can survive an attack and counter back with Spore or an attacking move, which can either stop or just straight up OHKO a scary offensive threat for your team. Speaking of its attacks, all of them are Technician-boosted and are extremely powerful. Grass-typing is a seriously under-rated offensive typing IMO, and Breloom is a great user of Bullet Seed thanks to a great attack stat and Technician. Also, priority Mach Punch has the same power as Scizor's Bullet Punch iirc, which just shows how strong of a priority attack this thing can use. Flaws include a poor Speed stat and shitty defenses. While I'm not too strong on it, A Rank seems to fit Breloom well. :]
*Just want to make a note that after writing this, I could also see A- as a pretty good ranking too, mainly because this thing has limited switch in opportunities and hates Scald's burn chance, something that sucks for a Grass-type.

Gengar: Yeah, once again I could see this thing in A Rank. Great defensive typing combined with Levitate means Gengar can find multiple switch in opportunities. This also allows him to easily set up a Substitute, as well as use helpful moves such as Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and his dual STABs. This makes him a great stallbreaker, as he can stop Pokemon such as Chansey from doing anything. Gengar also has a great Speed and a good Special Attack stat, meaning he isn't a dead weight against offense, either. However, unfortunate bulk and only average power without a boosting item mean Gengar can struggle in a match. Sets lacking Will-O-Wisp also hate Bisharp, especially Pursuit variants. Overall, a good Pokemon, though it's more fitting in A Rank.

Politoed: Politoed is the cornerstone of Rain Offense right now. This is because he is able to set up Rain just by switching in, meaning your team doesn't have to spend an entire turn setting Rain up. This makes him and invaluable teammember who is on most, if not all well-built Rain teams right now. However, as a Pokemon itself, Politoed is very flawed. It's base stats are generally poor, meaning it can't do much offensively or defensively. Its defensive sets lack reliable recovery, and can be a serious momentum killer for the team. If an offensive set is used, Politoed will have much more trouble switching in, and it doesn't hit very hard outside of Choice Specs Hydro Pumps in Rain. Overall, while Politoed is a very important member to Rain itself due to the unmatchable utility it brings, it unfortunately is flawed as a Pokemon itself, and therefore should probably be ranked B+.

Krookodile: I've had little to no experience with Krookodile, so I can't say much. However, he did seem to work well on that stall team posted awhile back, and has a nice defensive typing. However, lack of reliable recovery, generally poor defensive stats, and competition from Pokemon such as Mandibuzz and Tyranitar means Krookodile can find it hard to really stand out from the crowd. I would say C/C+ sounds good, but then again, this is not a very educated decision.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The problem with Amoonguss is that it does nothing besides Spore and sponge some hits. It's walled entirely by any Steel-type (Ferrothorn just sets up hazards in its face for example). I'm not saying that Spore isn't useful, but you might as well be using Mega Venu with Sleep Powder or Breloom who actually provide offensive presence aside from a sleep-inducing move. Walling most Azumarill sets and Keldeo is nice, though.

 

[Baharoth]

I dont realy agree with the "Amoonguss outclasses defensive Venusaur" thing but B is certainly a joke for a pokemon that good. I think it would be fine in A- where most defensive mons are atm as it doesnt realy stand out that much from the rest to justify an A rank. Yes its easily just as good as Ferrothorn but that thing doesnt realy belong in A either.

 

[procrastinat]

How does amoonguss "completely outclass" megasaur defensively? Megasaur has better defenses and an arguably as good ability in thick fat, while also providing a solid offensive presence, the only advantage I can think of is spore, but megasaur has access to the at least semi-reliable sleep powder.
Ferrothorn is also bulkier and only weak to 2 types compared to Amooguss' 4 weaknesses, while also only having far more immunities. That said regenerator, spore and synthesis are important edges, but ferrothorn also has access to hazards.

As for what it is ranked with and below, Lucario is one of the few sweepers that couldn't care less about talon and thundy at +2, being able to KO them with extremespeed, as well as being able to smash through skarmory with close combat. Diggersby is just absurdly strong, same goes for Megachomp, being able to to 2HKO pretty much every stall pokemon and OHKO all offensive pokemon. Scizor is is still scizor, and although it took a hit this generation, it's choice band and offensive SD sets are still devastating.

You got me on Gyarados.

Amooguss can do all that you mentioned, but in the end, so can megasaur, and amoonguss is NOT better because it doesn't take up a mega slot because it is still outclassed by saur's offensive presence. Also comparing it to what it is ranked with does nothing, And comparing it to things that have the completely opposite playstyle like lucario doesn't really do anything either.

However, stall has been experimenting with different megas and on those teams is where amoonguss will really shine, enough to move it to B+ in my opinion.

 

[Halcyon.]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 315-372 (112 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 134-159 (44.9 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 340-400 (120.9 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 135-160 (45 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

uh...what?

He said at +2, but it was worded confusingly. Lucario dismantles offense at +2, though. I would still put it in B.

 

[Karxrida]

How does amoonguss "completely outclass" megasaur defensively? Megasaur has better defenses and an arguably as good ability in thick fat, while also providing a solid offensive presence, the only advantage I can think of is spore, but megasaur has access to the at least semi-reliable sleep powder.
Ferrothorn is also bulkier and only weak to 2 types compared to Amooguss' 4 weaknesses, while also only having far more immunities. That said regenerator, spore and synthesis are important edges, but ferrothorn also has access to hazards.

As for what it is ranked with and below, Lucario is one of the few sweepers that couldn't care less about talon and thundy at +2, being able to KO them with extremespeed, as well as being able to smash through skarmory with close combat. Diggersby is just absurdly strong, same goes for Megachomp, being able to to 2HKO pretty much every stall pokemon and OHKO all offensive pokemon. Scizor is is still scizor, and although it took a hit this generation, it's choice band and offensive SD sets are still devastating.

You got me on Gyarados.

Amooguss can do all that you mentioned, but in the end, so can megasaur, and amoonguss is NOT better because it doesn't take up a mega slot because it is still outclassed by saur's offensive presence. Also comparing it to what it is ranked with does nothing, And comparing it to things that have the completely opposite playstyle like lucario doesn't really do anything either.

However, stall has been experimenting with different megas and on those teams is where amoonguss will really shine, enough to move it to B+ in my opinion.

I don't know about "outclassing", but it has several nifty tools Mega Venusaur doesn't like Foul Play, Regenerator + U-tun shenanigans, Spore (which won't miss unlike Sleep Powder), and higher HP to punish Talonflame more.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 266-315 (89.2 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 270-318 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Wouldn't call 37.5% chance very reliable.

Try again with Rocks up. Guaranteed OHKOs.

 

[Halcyon.]

He didn't word it confusingly, it was just straight up wrong lol. I was about to do the calcs for talonflame and thundy at +2

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 266-315 (89.2 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 270-318 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Wouldn't call 37.5% chance very reliable.

Adamant?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (98.9 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-350 (98.9 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I mean, that's without any chip damage whatsoever. And since Lucario is a late-game sweeper, I think what he said is totally valid. Again, I think B is fine for Lucario but I also agree that it's a serious threat to offensive teams.

 

[Jaiho]

I dont realy agree with the "Amoonguss outclasses defensive Venusaur" thing but B is certainly a joke for a pokemon that good. I think it would be fine in A- where most defensive mons are atm as it doesnt realy stand out that much from the rest to justify an A rank. Yes its easily just as good as Ferrothorn but that thing doesnt realy belong in A either.

Ferrothorn is one of the best defensive pokes in the game. It is so goddamn bulky, and walls so many pokes, especially since it racks up easy damage with iron barbs + rocky helmet and leech seed. In just the A-ranks, it easily rapes: Aegislash, Thundy w/out FB, Deo-S, Azumarill, Bisharp, Excadrill, M-Scizor, T-tar, Mega-gyara, Lati@s, Mamo, and Garchomp w/out fire blast. Ferro is nearly as good as it was last gen, and the only people didn't realize before was the new toy syndrome.

 

[Srn]

Ferrothorn is one of the best defensive pokes in the game. It is so goddamn bulky, and walls so many pokes, especially since it racks up easy damage with iron barbs + rocky helmet and leech seed. In just the A-ranks, it easily rapes: Aegislash, Thundy w/out FB, Deo-S, Azumarill, Bisharp, Excadrill, M-Scizor, T-tar, Mega-gyara, Lati@s, Mamo, and Garchomp w/out fire blast. Ferro is nearly as good as it was last gen, and the only people didn't realize before was the new toy syndrome.

Aight, rocky helm ferro is imo a set taht really shouldn't ever be run. Especially on a pokemon that checks so many things, loss of passive recovery REALLY stings.
So, as for pokemon it is "easily raping" (i'm using spread of 252hp/216def+/40SDef, 40 sdef used to avoid 2hko from +3 manaphy ice beam and 3hko from greninja ice beam, so its more or less the optimal spread afaik)

Subtoxic aegislash easily wins against ferrothorn without knock off, and its more or less a liability for ferro to run knock off in teh first place. It's a nice move, don't get me wrong, but it has better things to be doing.

A lot of thundy carry FB, a lot carry taunt to make you easy to switch into as well.

Deo-s can simply taunt you too and do its job from there: set screens, hazards, or easily switch in something like Dnite or Bisharp idk. A lot of mons don't take super effective damage from steel and grass :I

more and more azu start to carry superpower nowadays, but I agree that ferrothorn is one of the most solid checks to azu there is.

Bisharp can just set SD on you as you gyro ball or leech seed or something else that isn't lethal. To be fair tho, you avoid 3hko and not many even carry SD now.

However, as for excadrill
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 146-173 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You cannot by any means suggest Ferrothorn is raping anything in this match up.

M-scizor literally just sets up on ferrothorn lmao what is ferro even doing back outside of leech seed. To be able to "rape" threats like m-scizor you need to be able to OHKO and take a bp or 2HKO and take 2 bp's. Ferrothorn does neither.

Ttar commonly carry fire blast as leads, and mega ddance ttar are actually starting ot carry fire punch just for ferro and scizor. However, thanks to resurgence in exca and the consequent resurgence in lando-t, i'd personally stick with ice punch and pack a heatran or something.

Mega Gyara can rest-talk :^) jk that set is sorta meh, ferrothorn is a solid answer. However, you need power whip to be able to totally counter it as without it, it can just set a sub and continue setting up.

Lati@s can carry hp fire, but for the most part ferro is a solid check i agree.

Ferro is a solid check to mamo, but its not really a great switch-in...
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 142-169 (40.3 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And chomp without fire blast can also set SD on you and plow through you, so that effectively leaves ferro only able to take the scarf sets.
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 199-235 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (109 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 118-139 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO

Oh, and since we're talking about ferrothorn and supposed to be talking about breloom, here's a fun fact:

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Ferrothorn: 120-144 (34 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (86 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 106-126 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So factoring in iron barbs damage, though your ferrothorn will be left at 20% with high rolls and 32% with low rolls, ferrothorn is actually beating sash loom. Again, this is only sash loom, and this is not on the switch-in or anything, as even LO mach punch almost 2hko's i think.

 

[skies]

Amoonguss should either stay the same or move up to B+ at most. Amoonguss is a Pokemon that looks fantastic on paper, Spore, Regenerator, a cool typing, but besides that it really sucks. It has 0 offensive presence and after it has put something to sleep it is so easily set up on by everything really. Clear Smog is cool for this and all, but it forces you to run it over Sludge Bomb, and Substitute blocks it just as well, and the amount of Steel-types that beat it are crazy. With Latios and Talonflame being common, it can't even wall amazingly. Ice-, Flying-, Fire-, and Psychic-types all spell doom for it, as even with its bulk it can't handle them. This requires team support (Yes, I acknowledge that this is kind of like >a Pokemon has a weakness), but Amoonguss is supposed to be supporting. It has so many common weaknesses, which makes it tough. It sucks ass against Stall because most carry clerics, making Spore moot and it is not powerful enough to damage them at all. Against Offense it puts something to sleep and then it... well... it just kind of gets set up on or dies. Now don't get me wrong, I love Amoonguss, it's a great Pokemon, it is a great pivot with access to Spore and Regenerator, it has several great qualities, but definitely enough flaws to prevent it from moving all the way up to A. You can't possibly tell me it's on the same level as Pokemon who are consistent such as Hippowdown and Landorus-T? Or even Breloom, Mandibuzz, and Rotom-W. Now on B+ it kind of is on the same level as Gliscor and such, but I'm not sure honestly.

Anyways, I'll be making a post about Quagsire for A- when I get back from vacation u.u

 

[Jukain]

B+ for Amoon, it's definitely not A lol...it's basically a stallmon and most of the other 'stallmons' are placed in A-/B+, Amoonguss doesn't have such amazing capabilities on balanced (where Venu usually ends up better despite competition for the Mega slot) that make it worth moving up. There's some obvious good points, but I don't think it should be up in A-. I mean let's look at A- defensive stuff:

Chansey: cornerstone of stall, best special wall in the tier
Mandibuzz: resilient defensive Pokemon and Defogger that is a good Lando check and very difficult to break whilst pressuring the opponent with Foul Play + Taunt/Knock Off/Toxic
Skarmory: ridiculous physical wall, handles many top physical threats with ease and a great Defogger
Amoon: decent Venu replacement because stall/semi-stall tends to want Char X, handles threats like Keldeo and Aegislash well plus nice 100% accurate sleep

The description of Amoon doesn't seem on par with A-, even. Just not at that level.

 

[Rhaegar]

How does amoonguss "completely outclass" megasaur defensively? Megasaur has better defenses and an arguably as good ability in thick fat, while also providing a solid offensive presence, the only advantage I can think of is spore, but megasaur has access to the at least semi-reliable sleep powder.
Ferrothorn is also bulkier and only weak to 2 types compared to Amooguss' 4 weaknesses, while also only having far more immunities. That said regenerator, spore and synthesis are important edges, but ferrothorn also has access to hazards.

As for what it is ranked with and below, Lucario is one of the few sweepers that couldn't care less about talon and thundy at +2, being able to KO them with extremespeed, as well as being able to smash through skarmory with close combat. Diggersby is just absurdly strong, same goes for Megachomp, being able to to 2HKO pretty much every stall pokemon and OHKO all offensive pokemon. Scizor is is still scizor, and although it took a hit this generation, it's choice band and offensive SD sets are still devastating.

You got me on Gyarados.

Amooguss can do all that you mentioned, but in the end, so can megasaur, and amoonguss is NOT better because it doesn't take up a mega slot because it is still outclassed by saur's offensive presence. Also comparing it to what it is ranked with does nothing, And comparing it to things that have the completely opposite playstyle like lucario doesn't really do anything either.

However, stall has been experimenting with different megas and on those teams is where amoonguss will really shine, enough to move it to B+ in my opinion.

Amoonguss outclasses Defensive Megasaur simply because it doesn't have to waste a turn to heal back it's health. After Megasaur comes into a Shadow Ball from Aegislash it then has to Synthesis as the opponent goes into something like Pinsir.

And the point of Amoonguss is not to have offensive presence but to be in and out which is much better for the role it plays rather than Venu who generally just scares something away and is then up against something like Latios which it can't do much to anyway, and then the opponent can just double switch from Latios.

Amoonguss almost always guarantees sleep at no cost against offense with no way to even double switch around it. Assuming Venusaur had Spore instead of Sleep Powder (which no decent player runs because it's a cheap gamble), It still has to spend a turn to heal after it puts something to sleep.

 

[skies]

Amoonguss outclasses Defensive Megasaur simply because it doesn't have to waste a turn to heal back it's health. After Megasaur comes into a Shadow Ball from Aegislash it then has to Synthesis as the opponent goes into something like Pinsir.

And the point of Amoonguss is not to have offensive presence but to be in and out which is much better for the role it plays rather than Venu who generally just scares something away and is then up against something like Latios which it can't do much to anyway, and then the opponent can just double switch from Latios.

Amoonguss almost always guarantees sleep at no cost against offense with no way to even double switch around it. Assuming Venusaur had Spore instead of Sleep Powder (which no decent player runs because it's a cheap gamble), It still has to spend a turn to heal after it puts something to sleep.

Just pointing out that it can't switch into Aegislash:

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Amoonguss: 250-294 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

 

[TFL]

You made the calc in favor of Aegislash. Aegislash without an item boost is far more common, and the sets in the analysis that do have them do not use a +SpA nature. In any case, SpD Amoongus can switch in with Stealth Rock against that set and avoid the 2HKO.

 

[Rhaegar]

B+ for Amoon, it's definitely not A lol...it's basically a stallmon and most of the other 'stallmons' are placed in A-/B+, Amoonguss doesn't have such amazing capabilities on balanced (where Venu usually ends up better despite competition for the Mega slot) that make it worth moving up. There's some obvious good points, but I don't think it should be up in A-. I mean let's look at A- defensive stuff:

Chansey: cornerstone of stall, best special wall in the tier
Mandibuzz: resilient defensive Pokemon and Defogger that is a good Lando check and very difficult to break whilst pressuring the opponent with Foul Play + Taunt/Knock Off/Toxic
Skarmory: ridiculous physical wall, handles many top physical threats with ease and a great Defogger
Amoon: decent Venu replacement because stall/semi-stall tends to want Char X, handles threats like Keldeo and Aegislash well plus nice 100% accurate sleep

The description of Amoon doesn't seem on par with A-, even. Just not at that level.

So I realized Amoonguss is rated so low because people think it's only good on stall. I don't know what more to say to emphasize how much of an edge Regenerator and 100% sleep give it over Megasaur as a switch-in to threats and a no-cost sponge while getting passive recovery from Black Sludge.

If anyone wants to get experience in its effectiveness on Balance I'd suggest trying an Amoonguss-Heatran-Mandibuzz defensive core. If played correctly I'm sure you'll be more satisfied with Amoonguss than if it was VenuTran. And having a solid defensive core which provides rocks, Defog, and doesn't take up a mega slot (VenuTranSire does not satisfy the latter two) allows for liberal teambuilding with the three remaining slots.

 

[JFrost]

Surprised to see Charizard Y A instead of S. Drought gives him an even more powerful STAB plus more resistance to water type moves. Instant Solarbeam also deals with water types such as Rotom Wash. Has access to Roost. I guess the only thing keeping him from S ranking is 4x weakness to SR, that's the only reason he'd not make S Tier in my opinion; because a Fire Blast from Charizard Y is among the strongest attacks in all of OU, period. (Without help of boosting moves like Swords Dance).

 

[trc]

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

• Mega Charizard Y

 

[LightningLuxray]

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

• Mega Charizard Y

I think he was more asking how the conclusion was reached, not so much saying that Charizard Y should be moved. Maybe I interpreted his post wrong though, idk

Also JFrost Charizard Y is A+ because of its Stealth Rock weakness and the fact that it suffers as a wallbreaker due to Chansey being on nearly every stall team. It's also really hard to justify using Zard Y over a standard Mega DD user, such as Zard X/TTar/Gyarados, mainly because other non-Mega wallbreakers exist who can also do Zard Y's job similarly. Combine this with the fact that it's not very fast, and offensive teams can easily outspeed and revenge kill it, and Chariard Y is easily a A+ threat. Of course, it does have a ton of pros (which is why it's A+), but its flaws keep it from S Rank.

 

[Ajwf]

So I realized Amoonguss is rated so low because people think it's only good on stall. I don't know what more to say to emphasize how much of an edge Regenerator and 100% sleep give it over Megasaur as a switch-in to threats and a no-cost sponge while getting passive recovery from Black Sludge.

If anyone wants to get experience in its effectiveness on Balance I'd suggest trying an Amoonguss-Heatran-Mandibuzz defensive core. If played correctly I'm sure you'll be more satisfied with Amoonguss than if it was VenuTran. And having a solid defensive core which provides rocks, Defog, and doesn't take up a mega slot (VenuTranSire does not satisfy the latter two) allows for liberal teambuilding with the three remaining slots.

Well since Amoongus isn't defogging either, I don't understand the relevancy.

Now, I'm not quite sure if you understand the differences in bulk. Yes, Amoongus has regenerator blah blah blah, it still has to switch out to get that. Not to mention most good amoongus sets REQUIRE this switch to gain back health (FoulPlay/GigaDrain/ClearSmog/Spore). So there's definitely opportunity cost that this is the way you activate regenerator. At first, this seems like a great thing, but then you realize that it gets warn down when the poke it is countering doesn't switch.

Saying it is better than Venu is so wrong I'm not sure how you're getting away with this. Over the past couple of days, I've been revamping my venusaur team and I tried amoongus for a while. Now, it's kinda fun because with that one change I move to have three regenerator mons. However, what you lose with Venusaur is sheer massive bulk. You also lose two type resistances, but we'll even ignore that. It goes without saying, but Amoongus cannot do anything Venu does on the physical side.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 225-265 (52 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With no bulk invested, Venusaur outbulks the set Amoongus runs to take Belly Drum Azumarill (lol that it has to do that given perfect typing).
Once you give Venu his bold spread.... Well, the difference is obvious.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Obviously you wouldn't consider Venusaur or Amoongus for this one. However, I was having a bit of an issue thinking this morning of physical attackers and this is the first one on the OU list that hits them for neutral besides bisharp, knock off advantage Venu.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 168-198 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I don't know, what I see in both cases is Mega Venusaur is tied (special) or better (physical) in bulk with only HP investment. So how are you getting away with saying Amoongus is "better"? In theory, that mega spot is helpful. However, if you're taking up heatran then, you lose rocks. Skarm has to and you lose defog, or you have to find someone else to set. Not an easy proposition. Chansey has better moveslots (aka wish/softboil together for all that recovery) and quag can't tote the rock. Nor can aegislash.

Don't get me wrong, Amoongus is pretty good. Regenerator is cool, especially in a core of three. By itself, it might be a liability by forcing the switch as the only way of recovery. Doesn't need heal bell for burn, also very cool. In fact, it does take resisted attacks better than Venu by concept of chip damage and regenerator. However, when push comes to shove and you really have to take on a top tier physical threat, I'll take that extra bulk.

 

[Baharoth]

Ferrothorn is one of the best defensive pokes in the game. It is so goddamn bulky, and walls so many pokes, especially since it racks up easy damage with iron barbs + rocky helmet and leech seed. In just the A-ranks, it easily rapes: Aegislash, Thundy w/out FB, Deo-S, Azumarill, Bisharp, Excadrill, M-Scizor, T-tar, Mega-gyara, Lati@s, Mamo, and Garchomp w/out fire blast. Ferro is nearly as good as it was last gen, and the only people didn't realize before was the new toy syndrome.

Mostly what SRN said, almost everything you mentioned often carries coverage moves to kill Ferro or simply sets up all over it. Even against Azu you cant be sure as it could be an CB set with Superpower. The only thing that it stops safely is Mega Gyara against everything else you need to know the full set before switching ferro in otherwise you risk losing it to a ohko in the worst case. Fighting/Fire Coverage is extremely common right now, no wonder with things like Ttar, Exca, Mega Scizor, Bisharp etc running rampant.

 

[Rhaegar]

Well since Amoongus isn't defogging either, I don't understand the relevancy.

Now, I'm not quite sure if you understand the differences in bulk. Yes, Amoongus has regenerator blah blah blah, it still has to switch out to get that. Not to mention most good amoongus sets REQUIRE this switch to gain back health (FoulPlay/GigaDrain/ClearSmog/Spore). So there's definitely opportunity cost that this is the way you activate regenerator. At first, this seems like a great thing, but then you realize that it gets warn down when the poke it is countering doesn't switch.

Saying it is better than Venu is so wrong I'm not sure how you're getting away with this. Over the past couple of days, I've been revamping my venusaur team and I tried amoongus for a while. Now, it's kinda fun because with that one change I move to have three regenerator mons. However, what you lose with Venusaur is sheer massive bulk. You also lose two type resistances, but we'll even ignore that. It goes without saying, but Amoongus cannot do anything Venu does on the physical side.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 225-265 (52 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 184-217 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With no bulk invested, Venusaur outbulks the set Amoongus runs to take Belly Drum Azumarill (lol that it has to do that given perfect typing).
Once you give Venu his bold spread.... Well, the difference is obvious.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Obviously you wouldn't consider Venusaur or Amoongus for this one. However, I was having a bit of an issue thinking this morning of physical attackers and this is the first one on the OU list that hits them for neutral besides bisharp, knock off advantage Venu.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 168-198 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

I don't know, what I see in both cases is Mega Venusaur is tied (special) or better (physical) in bulk with only HP investment. So how are you getting away with saying Amoongus is "better"? In theory, that mega spot is helpful. However, if you're taking up heatran then, you lose rocks. Skarm has to and you lose defog, or you have to find someone else to set. Not an easy proposition. Chansey has better moveslots (aka wish/softboil together for all that recovery) and quag can't tote the rock. Nor can aegislash.

Don't get me wrong, Amoongus is pretty good. Regenerator is cool, especially in a core of three. By itself, it might be a liability by forcing the switch as the only way of recovery. Doesn't need heal bell for burn, also very cool. In fact, it does take resisted attacks better than Venu by concept of chip damage and regenerator. However, when push comes to shove and you really have to take on a top tier physical threat, I'll take that extra bulk.

I've already given reasoning as to why it's better (as a defensive mon) and fail to see any valid argument against it. In short, Momentum.

I am not saying Amoonguss compares offensively to Venusaur but when it comes to facing offensive and hyper offensive teams which are everywhere, Venusaur gets overloaded and easily beaten while Amoonguss cripples them for free.

And Amoonguss isn't even meant to face off against Dragonite and even Venusaur isn't a great switch-in either so that's an irrelevant calc as you said. Amoonguss mainly checks special threats with few physical ones like Azumarill and Breloom.

It's true that Venusaur has the advantage of taking knock off better but it doesn't easily beat SD Bisharp 1v1 anyway. Amoonguss isn't a mega so you can run another mega that takes knock off well and can 1v1 Bisharp.

And you can't be serious about Aegislash. Amoonguss is the best switch-in to Aegislash in the game. Firstly it runs max SpD and then it either OHKOes with foul play on BladeSlash, Spores through the KS, or Spores the switch-in. It then just switches out with Regenerator as if it never got hit. Not to mention it has Black Sludge recovery which Venusaur does not so you should probably subtract 6.25% from any Amoonguss calc you care to run.
Now Venusaur comes into a Shadow Ball and then goes 'Hmm so I've lost over a third
of my HP. It would be wise to heal it off since I become quite ineffective if I just keep getting worn down. I'm just going to Synth-HOLY F*CK HE SENT OUT PINSIR.'

Amoonguss sponges a a threatening hit, puts a Pokemon to sleep, and gives its team momentum all at the same time while Venusaur sacrifices the momentum to the other team just to be able to sponge that hit.

Edit: Please bear with my impatience it's just that I've had to spend a lot of time on this topic and most counter arguments are just making me repeat myself. Comparing Amoonguss and Venusaur isn't as simple as posting calcs.

 

[theV8man]

I've already given reasoning as to why it's better (as a defensive mon) and fail to see any valid argument against it. In short, Momentum.

I am not saying Amoonguss compares offensively to Venusaur but when it comes to facing offensive and hyper offensive teams which are everywhere, Venusaur gets overloaded and easily beaten while Amoonguss cripples them for free.

And Amoonguss isn't even meant to face off against Dragonite and even Venusaur isn't a great switch-in either so that's an irrelevant calc as you said. Amoonguss mainly checks special threats with few physical ones like Azumarill and Breloom.

It's true that Venusaur has the advantage of taking knock off better but it doesn't easily beat SD Bisharp 1v1 anyway. Amoonguss isn't a mega so you can run another mega that takes knock off well and can 1v1 Bisharp.

And you can't be serious about Aegislash. Amoonguss is the best switch-in to Aegislash in the game. Firstly it runs max SpD and then it either OHKOes with foul play on BladeSlash, Spores through the KS, or Spores the switch-in. It then just switches out with Regenerator as if it never got hit. Not to mention it has Black Sludge recovery which Venusaur does not so you should probably subtract 6.25% from any Amoonguss calc you care to run.
Now Venusaur comes into a Shadow Ball and then goes 'Hmm so I've lost over a third
of my HP. It would be wise to heal it off since I become quite ineffective if I just keep getting worn down. I'm just going to Synth-HOLY F*CK HE SENT OUT PINSIR.'

Amoonguss sponges a a threatening hit, puts a Pokemon to sleep, and gives its team momentum all at the same time while Venusaur sacrifices the momentum to the other team just to be able to sponge that hit.

Edit: Please bear with my impatience it's just that I've had to spend a lot of time on this topic and most counter arguments are just making me repeat myself. Comparing Amoonguss and Venusaur isn't as simple as posting calcs.

Amoonguss isn't the best switch in into Aegislash because it can run Iron Head, Swords Dance, or even Head Smash. It's a great Pokemon and it should definetely go to B+ IMO, but Mega-Venusaur outclasses it in general. Yes, Amoonguss is a better pivot and allows you to run other megas, but Mega-Venusaur takes hits better with only HP investment and can threaten back significantly.

 

[Karxrida]

I was just doing some calcs for Gengar and found these gems:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 252-296 (62.3 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock with a Life Orb)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 484-572 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 460-541 (113.8 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 186-222 (70.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 186-218 (57.9 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Gengar is has enough uninvested bulk to survive Banded Azumarill's Aqua Jet and OHKO it back without a Life Orb (or possibly OHKO Assualt Vest variants with a Life Orb and SR) and a standard Aegislash's Shadow Sneak while crippling it with Will-O-Wisp/Taunt or killing it with Shadow Ball (which also does over 50% to Shield Form). It makes a great check to non-Belly Drum Azumarill and a shaky one to Aegislash, which is pretty impressive if you ask me.

 

[Rhaegar]

Amoonguss isn't the best switch in into Aegislash because it can run Iron Head, Swords Dance, or even Head Smash. It's a great Pokemon and it should definetely go to B+ IMO, but Mega-Venusaur outclasses it in general. Yes, Amoonguss is a better pivot and allows you to run other megas, but Mega-Venusaur takes hits better with only HP investment and can threaten back significantly.

Those sets are uncommon and still somewhat dealt with by Amoonguss. Head Smash Aegislash nearly dies using it on Amoonguss and SD Aegislash loses to Foul Play. In fact Amoonguss beats any Aegislash if it just lives one hit because it's slower and uses Foul Play. On SD Aegislash Iron Head isn't even the better option over Sacred Sword.

Anyway, even assuming Amoonguss actually doesn't check the least common set, what would you say is the best switchin to Aegislash then? Mandibuzz loses to Head Smash as well as the extremely common SubToxic set.

So I'll say it again just as a major point in favor of Amoonguss being bumped at least to A-. Amoonguss is the best as well as the only completely (sans Sacrificial Life Orb Head Smash on a high roll After Rocks) reliable switch-in to the biggest threat in the meta.