This is a bad argument. It's had its ranking lowered because these mons started running moves for Venusaur in the first place, and it shouldn't have its viability raised because people are more prepared for it. This is why it's currently A instead of A+. Venusaur is fairly easy to wear down, and the prevalence of HO cores that can outright beat it really hurts its viability. I don't have any experience with the offensive set, but honestly it doesn't sound that amazing on offense (or at least enough to warrant A+), as grass/poison isn't the best stab and can lose momentum easily, it's beaten by common HO mons like Landorus, Pinsir, and Talonflame (and every offensive team has to be able to get around defensive Venusaur so it's not like there are any teams not prepared for it), and it's SpA is reasonably good, but nothing special and easily wall-able by more defensive teams. It's offensive set really just doesn't compare to any of the offensive threats currently in A+. A is fine for it at the moment.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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This is a bad argument. It's had its ranking lowered because these mons started running moves for Venusaur in the first place, and it shouldn't have its viability raised because people are more prepared for it. This is why it's currently A instead of A+. Venusaur is fairly easy to wear down, and the prevalence of HO cores that can outright beat it really hurts its viability. I don't have any experience with the offensive set, but honestly it doesn't sound that amazing on offense (or at least enough to warrant A+), as grass/poison isn't the best stab and can lose momentum easily, it's beaten by common HO mons like Landorus, Pinsir, and Talonflame (and every offensive team has to be able to get around defensive Venusaur so it's not like there are any teams not prepared for it), and it's SpA is reasonably good, but nothing special and easily wall-able by more defensive teams. It's offensive set really just doesn't compare to any of the offensive threats currently in A+. A is fine for it at the moment.
This is exactly what I was trying to put across on how Venusaur is best used. It's amazing offensive glue but outclassed by Amoonguss on stall and on defense oriented balance teams which like running a different mega.
Well, I basically have ~the past month of experience with Offensive MegaSaur and I don't think you understand how it works. It's not meant for HO/Sacrificial Offense or anything like that; it's meant to be used on balanced teams going towards offense or Bulky Offensive teams. Grass/Poison isn't the best STAB combination out there but it's not bad at all; you'd be surprised how few mons tank both with no problem while not getting destroyed by Hidden Power Fire in one hit. Basically Heatran and a few less common Pokemon (and dedicated special walls but thats a given). You're not losing anything because the kind of teams you'd use this Venusaur on rely on its ability to sponge hits and deal out massive damage in return but also have the defensive backbone so "losing momentum" isn't a problem. You say common HO mons beat it, but good luck switching any of those into Venusaur considering that Sludge Bomb does about 70% to both Pinsir and Talonflame while Giga Drain 2HKOs Landorus (and you tank Psychic so it doesn't even beat you because it can't switch in). You're right that its special attack in itself is nothing special. The special thing about Mega Venusaur and why it outclasses most Mega Evolutions or at least ties the best of them (like Zard X) is that it has both immense offensive AND defensive utility.
Again, you say that "common HO mons" beat it, but now think about all the stuff Venusaur can come in on safely to start wreaking havoc. Azumarill, Thundurus, Keldeo as long as you don't switch into HP Fly, Mega Manectric, Mega Gyarados (you beat it even if you switch in as long as SR is up) and probably a few more I can't be bothered to list. And nothing, and I actually mean nothing, wants to eat a souped up move from Venusaur on these kind of teams in return. This isn't Venusaurs best matchup but even against HO teams it can go 1-for-1 at worst. On balance and bulkier teams in general theres many, many, MANY other Pokemon such as the aforementioned Conkeldurr as well as Clefable, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Zapdos, Suicune (although you need a bit of speed to do well against Suicune) and, again, many more that it can switch into. While it can't completely wreck teams like those with its powerful attacks it can come in many times and these teams as well as the sand teams now getting popular get absolutely decimated by MVenu. Excadrill really doesn't want to deal with it, Azumarill doesn't want to deal with it, Clefable doesn't want to deal with it and neither of the two sand inducers want to deal with it at all. While it doesn't do that well against Stall, a team with Mega Venusaur should have the tools necessary to deal with it since Venusaur alone already deals with a huuuuuge portion of the metagame, mostly Pokemon which usually do well against offense such as Thundurus, Azumarill, Conkeldurr and others. This isn't just about Venusaur's damage output; this is about its ability to go toe-to-toe with almost anything that can't hit it super-effectively and its ability to shut down problematic Pokemon for these kind of offensive teams which it does admirably and in pretty much every game. Its damage output is actually terrific for a Pokemon this bulky and most Pokemon wish they had half its defensive as well as offensive capability. This thing can, without fail, beat every Mega Mawile without Swords Dance or Iron Head and even some that do carry those.
Sorry for the rather lengthy post, but I really felt like concentrating on the "offensive" capabilities of a Pokemon that isn't a primary damage dealer but rather a bulky pivot/anchor for Bulky Offense or Balance teams wasn't fair. Especially coming from someone who, in his own words, "doesn't have any experience" with it.
I was tired as fuck when I wrote this so excuse any errors or parts that don't make sense.
I think you have a good point overall, but I did want to point out that it can't safely come in on a few of the mons on HO you mentioned:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 213-252 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 148-176 (40.6 - 48.3%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 206-246 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Anyways, Mega-Venusaur is a pretty good mon (why it's in A), and I wouldn't be to opposed if it moved up.
Sorry about changing subjects but what do you guys think of Latias on A-? I want to hear some opinions before saying anything but I really think it is more on the same level of viability of things like Gliscor, Zapdos and Scolipede (B+ mons) than things like Chansey, Skarmory and Rotom-W.
Why do you think that, Mikasa?
First off I'm gonna say I'm not very experienced with Latias so this is why I was asking for opinions, but looking at the ranks I see things like Gyarados, Scizor and MGarchomp who are somewhat outclassed by their other forms, despite having some niches in B+, for me it just feels right that Latias who is also somewhat outclassed by Latios goes there also I feel like things like Chansey and Rotom-W are more metagame-defining than Latias, so as I said I'm not a Latias' user myself but looking at the rankings B+ seems better for it IMO.
I don't think it's that different from Latios to warrant being much lower, to tell the truth. Latios doesn't hit that much harder.
Not to mention Latias' extra bulk makes it a more reliable defogger and a better switch in to Keldeo. I actually prefer Latias to Latios and feel it should be at A alongside it. Healing Wish is great on offensive teams and feels great to use when she's at low HP and -2 from using Meteor. She can also Healing Wish when up against Bisharp.
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Honestly, Healing Wish alone is reason enough to use Latias over Latios. Healing Wish is just a fantastic move for offensive teams as well as a great middle finger to Pursuit trappers. If you send Latias in at an appropriate time, Healing Wish basically lets you duplicate your win condition or recover from an early-game mistake. For example, I use Banded Azumarill as a hole-puncher as well as a late game cleaner, but it often gets far too weakened early-game to put in any work late-game. I can't count how many times a Healing Wish from Latias enabled it to fill both roles in the same match.
In fact, I almost always find myself using Latias over Latios for that sole reason. I'd definitely support moving it to A rank, since I see it as just as good as Latios, if not better.
In fact, I almost always find myself using Latias over Latios for that sole reason. I'd definitely support moving it to A rank, since I see it as just as good as Latios, if not better.
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The funny thing about Venu is that even the few things that can force it out (Latis, Lando, Pinsir, Talonflame, Greninja thats basicly it) can hardly switch in as they get 2hkoed after rocks or at max 3hkoed and on a balance team its not that hard to just switch into something to counter these things and bring Venu back in later in the match since there are just as many stables on HO that cant do shit to it. I dont know about stall but for balance Venu is one of the best mons in existence rivaled only by Charizard X. It can usually beat like 80% of the A and S ranks 1 on 1. (Aegi, most Thundurus sets, Azu, Bisharp, Clef, Exca, Garchomp, Gyara, Keldeo, Mawile, Scizor, TTar, Dragonite, Ferro, Hippo, Lando-T, Terra, Breloom, Manaphy, Rotom-W [assuming a Gigadrain/Sludgebomb/HP Fire set here]). Yes some of these things can run moves to have a chance against Venu like Manaphy and Thundurus but especially Psychic Thundurus is rare and it still loses to spdef Venu 1on1 and even against physical def venu it can only come in after something died otherwise it will lose. The combination of bulk and offensive power is unrivaled and makes it very hard to deal with when used well. So yes it deserves A+ if not even S, everybody and their mother runs checks to it and fills moveslots with coverage moves dedicated only to beat Venu and it can still hold it own against most of them and the few things it cant handle are easily dealt with by its teammates.
If anything, Latias should go up to A with latios. compared to the other A ranks, it performs similarly, and it is just way better than things like skarm.
Im fine with latias moving up aswell, I just think latias is equal to latios and should be rated the same.
Uhm... No, you don't need all that garbage on the sub set. Run sub seed + 2 attacks. Simple. No need for this Spiky Shield. Please refer to this post I wrote up in far more detail about using Chesnaught. After that's done, I feel you might be able to understand what set I'm using. SubSeed protect isn't used by any mon so far as I know.
QC is currently deciding on whether or not to keep Blissey's analysis now that it's no longer OU, but until then I'll probably just keep it as is.
My problem with Gothitelle is that while it's great against stall, it's almost complete dead weight (especially the trick/taunt/rest set you mentioned) against offense, which is for the most part, the dominant play style at the moment. Really, if you want to break stall there are better options that also fare well against offense, like Landorus. The fact that it's either pretty nifty or absolute dead weight in a game, makes it really inconsistent, and I don't think it should move up.
it isn't useless against offence, it is great for what you use it for, for taking out you're sweeper's checks so they can sweep late game, and it is arguably the best pokemon in the game at doing that, because the openent cant do anything as their checks to you're sweeper can't switch out and are KO'd by goth.
I think the fact that it has a usable special attacking stat (Flamethrower 2HKOs Scizor and Ferrothorn), and that Knock Off doesn't incapacitate it as much as its pre-evolution is enough of a niche for it to stay C, in my opinion.
I remember this same discussion taking place a few months back and that ended up going no where, so let's just leave it at that, and let the higher-ups decide.
I'd actually like to bring up Mega Alakazam again, because I don't agree with it being above Alakazam in the ranking. Seeing as if fulfills almost the same niche as Deoxys-S, Greninja and Mega Aerodactyl-Who has a much better typing for a mega, especially for taking priority hits.
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Yea, Psychic is obviously in the same boat as HP Fly, but the point was more the fact that it beats Thundurus going solely with Electric/Ice/Fighting coverage because, if we're being totally honest, that IS the best general coverage option it can run just because it hits almost everything. Oh it also beats Knock Off which is kinda cool. Gyarados needs to predict when you're coming in and Ice Fang that turn (if it Dragon Dances up I'm 99% sure you just win) and even then you can just Synth to get to the point where you can heal back enough with Giga Drain to survive the second one.
Anyway, I'm not gonna argue about this because you said you wouldn't really be opposed if it moved up so that's cool.
Seriously, A+ is perfect for Mega Venusaur. It's not as metagame defining as the Pokemon in S but it most definitely is as good as the Pokemon in A+, and probably a whole load better than some of them (Charizard Y...) and most definitely better than pretty much everything in A with the exception of maybe Heatran and/or Dragonite. Trust me on this if you don't have any experience with it; it's that good.
Mandibuzz also probably deserves being in A because it also checks a ridiculous amount of Pokemon on these kind of teams. While it's in no way comparable to Venusaur in offensive ability, Foul Play is a terrifying move against the right things and its defenses can easily stand up to those of Mega Venusaur. I honestly think it's better than most of the A- Pokemon just because it's really good on balance but also an option for stall teams who want more security for Landorus instead of "just" being viable on one playstyle. And, as mentioned before, its Foul Play is a tremendous weapon against some top threats such as Garchomp and Dragonite (and many others obviously) which is why I think it should be higher than the other predominantly defensive Pokemon there; it has actual offensive presence and forces stuff out by actually threatening it instead of threatening to PP stall it. Probably not gonna argue this any further because I don't feel as strongly about this as I feel about Mega Venu, but yea food for thought. It's a top 5 Landorus check and doesn't become much less of one when hit by Knock Off, either. Bit of trouble with Calm Mind though but yea still good.
trick rest taunt gothitelle is so bad ugh rofl
So I'd like to see some of the pokemon in the lower ranks move down.
Volcarona: B- to C
Volcarona, once a pokemon said to be OU only because of stealth rocks and Heatran, has fallen from grace in Gen 6. It finally dropped to UU back in March, and for good reason. HO teams laugh at volcarona as they bring in Charizard X, Azumarill, Dragonite, Gyarados (Non Mega-Evolved), Talonflame and more, who resist its stabs and use it as setup bait, or just fire off powerful attacks to OHKO it. It can't beat stall at all as Chansey, Heatran, Bulky Charizard X and SpDef Clefable wall it to hell and back. Volcarona is also hampered by a terrible typing, including a 4x weakness to rock and a weakness to 2 extremely common types, water and flying, without many good resists to make up for it. The final nail in the coffin for Volcarona is its poor physical bulk, 85/65, which gives it a tough time setting up, especially in conjunction with its stealth rock weakness. While Volcarona does have some upsides, such as being able to deter U-Turn spam with its flame body ability, it is a very mediocre sweeper that finds it difficult to setup, while also being setup bait for many powerful sweepers.
Sharpedo: C+ to Unranked
The usual set is Protect, Waterfall, Crunch, Aqua Jet/Destiny Bond, right? Its job is to revenge kill or sweep late game, but it's terrible at both. If it wants to revenge kill something, it has to protect first, giving your opponent a free switch to something that resists its stabs such as Keldeo or Azumarill. However, most sweepers either carry priority (Pinsir), speed boosting moves (Volcarona :P) or both (Dragonite), so it can't revenge kill them anyway. It'll also never sweep in this priority infested meta because it has the defenses of a wet paper bag; even a resisted hit like Azumaril's Aqua Jet or M-Scizor's Bullet punch are guaranteed 2HKOs after Life Orb. Its lack of a boosting move also mean that you'll generally have something to tank the hit and KO back. Destiny Bond is cool, but when you're probably going to kill this with priority it doesn't even matter. Tbh, I don't see a reason to even use this over Deoxys-S or Talonflame or even Sash Alakazam. It might fit in D rank (D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.), but tbh its so shit I think it should just be unranked.
Blissey: C to D/Unranked
I'm sure everyone already knows why; the only thing Blissey has over its little sister Chansey is Flamethrower to stop setup from Scizor, Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
D rank imo. (Don't anyone dare say "Bu-bu-but KNOCK OFF!")
TL;DR
Volcarona: B- to C
Finds it hard to setup with poor physical bulk, is setup bait for many powerful sweepers, and easily revenge killed by all the brave birds/aqua jets/sucker punchs flying around.
Sharpedo: C+ to D/Unranked
Its job is to revenge kill and sweep late game but fails at doing either because of the abundance of priority and its paper-thin defenses. No reason to use it ever over Deo-S or Talonflame tbh.
Blissey: C to D/Unranked
Chansey>Blissey, Duh.
(Oops, other people ninja'd me on Blissey, I had this open yesterday and finished it this afternoon. )
Volcarona, once a pokemon said to be OU only because of stealth rocks and Heatran, has fallen from grace in Gen 6. It finally dropped to UU back in March, and for good reason. HO teams laugh at volcarona as they bring in Charizard X, Azumarill, Dragonite, Gyarados (Non Mega-Evolved), Talonflame and more, who resist its stabs and use it as setup bait, or just fire off powerful attacks to OHKO it. It can't beat stall at all as Chansey, Heatran, Bulky Charizard X and SpDef Clefable wall it to hell and back. Volcarona is also hampered by a terrible typing, including a 4x weakness to rock and a weakness to 2 extremely common types, water and flying, without many good resists to make up for it. The final nail in the coffin for Volcarona is its poor physical bulk, 85/65, which gives it a tough time setting up, especially in conjunction with its stealth rock weakness. While Volcarona does have some upsides, such as being able to deter U-Turn spam with its flame body ability, it is a very mediocre sweeper that finds it difficult to setup, while also being setup bait for many powerful sweepers.
The usual set is Protect, Waterfall, Crunch, Aqua Jet/Destiny Bond, right? Its job is to revenge kill or sweep late game, but it's terrible at both. If it wants to revenge kill something, it has to protect first, giving your opponent a free switch to something that resists its stabs such as Keldeo or Azumarill. However, most sweepers either carry priority (Pinsir), speed boosting moves (Volcarona :P) or both (Dragonite), so it can't revenge kill them anyway. It'll also never sweep in this priority infested meta because it has the defenses of a wet paper bag; even a resisted hit like Azumaril's Aqua Jet or M-Scizor's Bullet punch are guaranteed 2HKOs after Life Orb. Its lack of a boosting move also mean that you'll generally have something to tank the hit and KO back. Destiny Bond is cool, but when you're probably going to kill this with priority it doesn't even matter. Tbh, I don't see a reason to even use this over Deoxys-S or Talonflame or even Sash Alakazam. It might fit in D rank (D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.), but tbh its so shit I think it should just be unranked.
I'm sure everyone already knows why; the only thing Blissey has over its little sister Chansey is Flamethrower to stop setup from Scizor, Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
D rank imo. (Don't anyone dare say "Bu-bu-but KNOCK OFF!")
TL;DR
Finds it hard to setup with poor physical bulk, is setup bait for many powerful sweepers, and easily revenge killed by all the brave birds/aqua jets/sucker punchs flying around.
Its job is to revenge kill and sweep late game but fails at doing either because of the abundance of priority and its paper-thin defenses. No reason to use it ever over Deo-S or Talonflame tbh.
Chansey>Blissey, Duh.
(Oops, other people ninja'd me on Blissey, I had this open yesterday and finished it this afternoon. )
Wait, Blissey is UU?!
Oh, the horror!
I say lower Blissey's rank a bit. Remember it's still a reasonable tank, and there is a reason to use it is that she'll be less affected by Knock Off and have a usable Special Attack to work with, unlike Chansey.
Overall, I feel bad for Happiny
Oh, the horror!
I say lower Blissey's rank a bit. Remember it's still a reasonable tank, and there is a reason to use it is that she'll be less affected by Knock Off and have a usable Special Attack to work with, unlike Chansey.
Overall, I feel bad for Happiny
I could actually see mega pinsir moving down to A. It is a very good pokemon but is not really better than something like a terrakion. Mega pinsir was so good earlier this gen with bird spam being a nightmare, but the meta adapted and all teams pack a counter if not two. Skarm completely stops mega pinsir and that really hurts it when skarm is one of the most used physical walls in stall and balanced. HO can easily pick it off with things such as thundy and tflame which really hurts its ability to sweep. Mega pinsir is quite frail and struggles to find good opportunities to set up unless on forced switches. Although it is a great powerhouse that demands a check there are generally better mega sweepers out there like zard x/mega gyara/mega ttar who can sweep more reliably. Mega pinsir also gets forced out, which shouldn't usually bee too much of a problem but the fact that it has a 4x rock weakness hurts its ability to come in throughout the game. Im not saying mega pinsir is bad, heck id say its great but I think it fits in A because it struggles to set up all the time, can easily be revenge killed by thundy and tflame which have huge usage, has a 4x rock weakness (yes I know hazard control is easier but its more support) and as TFL said it is somewhat inconsistent.
I can't really see tflame dropping because it is just so good at revenge killing, but that's just my view.
I can't really see tflame dropping because it is just so good at revenge killing, but that's just my view.
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