No offense but, if you don't know much about the topic...
Then you probably should just follow this rule and not post :/
And you really need to know espeon to know about baton pass :/
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
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And you really need to know espeon to know about baton pass :/
This is getting slightly off-topic, but how many people do you think breed 6 IV Pokemon using Pokemon that were legitimately bred to be 6 IV using Pokemon that were completely legitimate as far back as it can go? Does that mean we should hold that against 6 IV Pokemon since very few people have completely legitimate flawless Pokemon.
Yet Zapdos is probably the only Pokemon on that team that has a suitable replacement...
Beat me to it, although I would have probably taken another 15 minutes figuring out how to say itnicely. :/
Even if it does work, you shouldn't have to dedicate half your team to countering one particular strategy. The game should be filled with a vast diversity of strategies with diverse checks and counters. Instead, we have an overwhelming influx of people using BP chains, particularly since Scolipede was introduced, and everyone else just tries to keep up with them. We shouldn't have to dedicate half our team to beating one particular strategy, that's the point here.
Agree with the first part but you lost me near the middle. BP is most certainly not being used by an overwhelming majority or even a significant minority. If either of them were to be the case, then the impacts would be as you stated but, as of now, it is not so.
not having precise knowledge about every single element, even if I know the vast majority of the information and understand it, hardly counts as "Little to no knowledge" and since I'm not as familiar with espion as the rest of you, I admit that and don't try to make decisions about it. As I should. I don't know what you're even getting on my case for. "the topic" is baton pass, which I've used since generation 2, and know it well. Espion is just a small part of that.
Well, maybe I just have horribly bad luck, because I seem to fight a lot of them.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think he was referring specifically to Espeon. Even if he was, the fact that you don't know much about Espeon, which is arguably one of the leading reasons that BP is so problematic, says a lot about your knowledge in regards to BP.
Actually, I think it speaks volumes. Baton Pass has been around since generation 2, and yet it hasn't become a problem until just now. I think that whatever is causing BP to become a problem must be something newly introduced, and since people have been chaining since generation 3 or so, I doubt that its that. If we can all agree that Espion is a major part of the problem, and that BP chains have been around for a decade before stored power or Scolipede, then I think we can all agree that the problem lies within those two pokemon, and not the chain itself. Simply put, before Scolipede, getting the chain started was much harder, which is what made the strategy less OP before he was around.
The reason I'm not 100% familiar with espion is due to the same issue every single one of us has: our own pokemon teams are built by us.
I typically run a defensive Mew on most of my teams, because, well, its my favorite pokemon. But Mew can be running absolutely anything, and BP chain users that I've faced, despite having espion, typically don't send it out. I'm guessing they're fearing the unknown may harm their precious nuke. But in any case, despite having had nearly 10 out of my last 18 or so battles being against BP teams (Most being the "deniss" type I've seen mentioned here) I only got swept by an Espion three times, and two of those, the espion was only taking out my last two pokes.
Everyone's experiences are different. Everyone knows only their own side of the matter and nobody is universally all-knowing. Please don't get on my case just for admitting that fact.
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Which brings us back to what I said earlier, you are ignoring the rest of the chain and claiming that Speed Boost + Magic Bounce are the only thinks that make BP work. If we are talking about what is different this gen, there is also Sylveon and Fairy-type attacks which hit the only type Stored Power is immune to for SE damage. Apart from that, the team members are important in covering weaknesses, accumulating boosts easily and keeping the momentum going, all of which have been said earlier.
Actually its been a problem since gen 3 or at the least has had a stigma: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rse-baton-pass.86066/
I'm no expert on the subject and not sure of the result, but yeh it has been an issue in the pass.
I may not be an expert on Espions broken HA and its uses, but I am an expert on generation three, through and through. Baton pass chains were annoying back then, but it was easy enough to nip it in the bud before it got too far if you were paying attention, even without a dedicated counter. For those who weren't paying attention or just had lousy teams... well, I can't speak for them.
Which reminds me of what you suggested in regards to Espeon's HA, banning it would have insane collateral damage, regardless of whether you banned it on Espeon specifically or in general. In the case of the former, you force people to resort to the other, inferior users while, in the case of the latter, you have tons of collateral damage and practically ban Mega Absol.
Made this post over a few days to iron a few ideas out. Sorry if some of the writting is a little sloppy. Hoping it doesn't get buried.
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So after playing on the ladder and getting requisites, I think it is fair to say that full Baton Pass definitely needs to go. I used all three of stall, HO, and baton pass to get the requisites to get a feel for each playstyle on the ladder.
First of all, if it isn't obvious to the ladder is literally full of teams prepared for Baton Pass. HO teams with Taunt-DD Mega-Gyarados are literally everywhere. I used it myself after Jukain beat me with it by throwing Taunt over Ice Fang on the first team here. Prankster Taunt is also much more common than it normally would be. Anyway, even with all these counter measures on the ladder, I found using Baton Pass was a solid method of getting easy wins on the ladder here and there. I pretty much knew whether or not I was going to win or lose the first few turns on a. matuchup or b. opponent made one wrong 50-50 prediction / or a full-on misplay.
To sum up why I think baton pass needs to go:
With that out of the way, I am looking towards option #2 right now. I really don't like the collateral damage that option #3 does to quick passing. I just would have left it just as Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Passive speed boosts are great, but I could still see baton pass surviving if just Speed Boost + Baton Pass was banned with other primary speed passers. I wish Stored Power was addressed in some way, because of its uncapped base power is what allows Baton Pass chains to ignore Unaware Pokemon + ignore trying to get SpA boosts. Stored Power is what lets baton pass chains end games so easily. #freeblaziken because Speed Boost + Baton Pass was a big reason it was banned right? :p
Let's ban this shit already and move on to real suspects instead of whatever lame strategy pops up next month (endless battle, swagplay, baton pass chains). Right now XY OU is devolving to an offensive slugfest of ridiculous wallbreakers and sweepers, and it is getting really stale...
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So after playing on the ladder and getting requisites, I think it is fair to say that full Baton Pass definitely needs to go. I used all three of stall, HO, and baton pass to get the requisites to get a feel for each playstyle on the ladder.
First of all, if it isn't obvious to the ladder is literally full of teams prepared for Baton Pass. HO teams with Taunt-DD Mega-Gyarados are literally everywhere. I used it myself after Jukain beat me with it by throwing Taunt over Ice Fang on the first team here. Prankster Taunt is also much more common than it normally would be. Anyway, even with all these counter measures on the ladder, I found using Baton Pass was a solid method of getting easy wins on the ladder here and there. I pretty much knew whether or not I was going to win or lose the first few turns on a. matuchup or b. opponent made one wrong 50-50 prediction / or a full-on misplay.
To sum up why I think baton pass needs to go:
- Exacerbates the importance of match-up
- Simply put you can't find a way to win around baton pass unless you pack a hard counter to the strategy. The counters are a little more diverse outside Haze / Prankster Taunt than we thought: Mega-Gardevoir, Taunt+DD Gyarados, and maybe Landorus-I. Even with a wider range of counters to full baton pass teams (which is still small), most of the options are just shoehorned in the team exclusively for baton pass. Basically, unless you carry one of these specific counters you will lose to baton pass chains and no it is not analogous to any other matchup in the metagame such as gothitelle to stall. Defensive teams suffer the most, because the the users of prankster taunt / haze are hard to fit in and perish song is unreliable. Do you really believe that a person should be punished with an automatic full loss because he does not have a hard counter [to baton pass]?
- Easily punishes opponents
- Baton Pass teams can punish opponents hard, whether it be a early game 50-50 or just you making a misplay. Baton Pass chains can get out of hand for an opponent very easily, very quickly. Consider that every defensive and speed stat boost is also pseudo-special attack boost by adding to the base power of stored power. It's crazy to think giving Scolipede one free turn is +2 def, +1 speed, and +4 SpA (considering Stored Power's original base power of 20 ---> 80). Overall, every free turn given to a baton pass chain will make any pokemon on the chain harder to take down / force out and allow Espeon / Sylveon to sweep more easily. Meanwhile you can not punish the baton pass user back for his mistakes because of the point below...
- Always has switch initiative
- I haven't seen this point brought up much but it is very important. Baton Pass has the same mechanics as U-turn / Volt Switch in that it is a way to "switch" (0 priority) that has lower priority than normal switching (+6 priority). Basically with a few speed boosts in hand, which is easily gained with Scolipede, the baton pass user now has every single one of the opponent's moves telegraphed to him. There is no room for "prediction" or to "outplay" because the baton pass user either knows a. that you have switched out OR b. that you have stayed in and can make an educated guess as to what move you will use. This is why people, myself included, say Baton Pass chains take little to no skill to used compared to other play-styles (among other reasons). Baton Pass teams are never forced to make predictions if they "switch out", like a double switch on a normal team, because Baton Pass' lower priority than switching allows the user to be one step ahead of the opponent.
With that out of the way, I am looking towards option #2 right now. I really don't like the collateral damage that option #3 does to quick passing. I just would have left it just as Magic Bounce + Baton Pass. Passive speed boosts are great, but I could still see baton pass surviving if just Speed Boost + Baton Pass was banned with other primary speed passers. I wish Stored Power was addressed in some way, because of its uncapped base power is what allows Baton Pass chains to ignore Unaware Pokemon + ignore trying to get SpA boosts. Stored Power is what lets baton pass chains end games so easily. #freeblaziken because Speed Boost + Baton Pass was a big reason it was banned right? :p
Let's ban this shit already and move on to real suspects instead of whatever lame strategy pops up next month (endless battle, swagplay, baton pass chains). Right now XY OU is devolving to an offensive slugfest of ridiculous wallbreakers and sweepers, and it is getting really stale...
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It was just an idea! And I think maybe banning the combo of Magic Bounce and Baton Pass together, not magic bounce in general, might be a good idea, then?
I NEVER said it's the only thing that makes it work! Remember, I said I wasn't that familiar with espeon, but I've had difficulties with BP teams. BP teams can work well normally and have for a long time. It's espion and scolipede that broke it and made it impossible. Before Scolipede, you could nip a starting-off BP chain in the bud if you caught onto the plan right away. But scolipede gives himself a free speed boost using protect, and then 2X speed iron defense, and you're generally stuck unless you have a dedicated counter on your team built specifically and only around taking care of that one pokemon >.<
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I just realized this is completely true. It's almost like there are people intentionally seeking out the most annoying strategies possible.
^Pretty much this. You do not counter entire teams with one move. A well built team played by a highly skilled player *should* be difficult to beat without preparation for the threats, whether it's BP, Deo Sharp, Sand offense, or whatever. And why shouldn't people prepare themselves for common upper ladder threats? I know not every team is meant to beat every team (there's too many threats in the metagame to prepare for every single one of them), but if your team is beaten by BP, why not put something on it to give you a decent chance of winning against those teams?
It's annoying to deal with, possibly OP, but there's so many other threats in the metagame that are also annoying/possibly OP that are more deserving of a suspect test. I'm mostly neutral on the topic (it doesn't really affect me either way if BP is banned or not), but leaning towards option 1 (Do not ban). There's only one BP player I've played against that I'd even consider good at the strategy, and he's not unbeatable, even with a semi-stall team. Granted, I do have several "counters" (which aren't failproof, because as was said, you do not counter entire teams with one move), but there isn't a single pokemon or move used on my team that do not have use outside of BP and/or do not otherwise fit my team and playstyle.
I see what people are trying to point out that you can't expect to beat a playstyle with one counter to it, but Baton Pass shits on its non-counters like no other style, which is why people have to resort to only one or two pokemon that can put up a fight against Baton Pass.
For example, stall breaker Gengar is too frail to set up subs against offensive teams, but it can still contribute in games against them with fast, decently powerful shadow balls and use the wisp to screw with some physical attackers. And that Unaware Clefable might not be getting its work in against a stall team who lacks powerful set up sweepers, but it can still set up a sweep with Calm Mind.
But you put the majority of the metagame up against a Baton Pass team, and all they end up doing is forcing a switch to the BP team's best counter to it, then become set-up bait.
See what happens when you just have a generic, good pokemon out, who you do not specifically equip with tools to defeat Baton Pass. Take, for example, a standard King's Shield + 3 attacks Aegislash set, the most common set on the most common pokemon on the ladder.
Suppose Aegislash is in its most favorable matchup right now, it's out against Espeon (because why would you bring it in against an unfavorable matchup). Obviously, Espeon is going to switch, because it doesn't want to take a shadow ball the the face, nor repeated shadow sneaks. You look at your options.
Shadow sneak looks nice, since you can get a solid hit on Espeon before it switches, right? Well, Espeons on Baton Pass teams are usually defensive so they can switch in to threats more easily, as Baton Pass teams can not guarantee their team members get in without a scratch each time.
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 122-146 (36.5 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Scolipede got an Iron Defense in, you're definitely going nowhere with that one.
So you could Shadow Sneak for some chip damage, or, since the opponent will obviously switch, you can try and outplay the switch. You can try and hit the switch-in hard, but for Aegislash (and the rest of the metagame, mostly), this isn't possible; at least one of the six pokemon can take a few attacks from whatever you have out. In this case, Zapdos is your opponent's least risky option. Against any other play style besides Volt-turn, you can try and double switch, but you can't here, because Baton Pass gets to switch after you do, and they'll just bring in something else that can set up on your switch in.
So you click Shadow Sneak to hit Espeon for some chip damage, or maybe you click Shadow Ball to get as much as you can from Zapdos, but either way, Zapdos now has a free turn to use Charge as you switch to the appropriate answer to it, and you bring out a pokemon that can take on Zapdos.
If any of the other five pokemon remaining can take a few attacks from your best answer to Zapdos, you basically repeat this, only now the opponent has +1 Special Defense compared to before. With other play styles, you can force Zapdos to switch out, once again being able to get a free hit as it does so and wear the team down, but enough turns with Baton Pass, and they'll have boosted so many times your free turns on their switches mean your attack bounces off their mountain of defense boosts.
Basically, Baton Pass shits on it's non-counters way harder than the other playstyles, and the only checks to BP chains fall into 3 categories.
1. Pokemon that can stop the boosts from stacking up, like through Haze or Taunt, so you can wear down switch-ins to your pokemon in the traditional manner rather than watching your attacks deflect off +4 to both defenses behind a sub.
2. Pokemon so powerful and dangerous that none of the six opponents can both switch in and set up on it, like Landorus-I is often cited (though I have never used this one personally, I hate it), since nothing can take two hits to switch in and set up a boost.
3. Surprise attacks on pokemon that allow it to faint a member of a Baton Pass team when their guard is down, like Sturdy+Mirror Coat Avalugg.
Anything else is practically dead weight against a Baton Pass team that they use to set up.
Which means you are either putting a lot of pressure on one or two pokemon to defeat an entire team so you are very weak to misplays or even the cheap sash spore smeargle, or you're using a lot more pokemon to check Baton Pass which is obviously overcentralizing.
For example, stall breaker Gengar is too frail to set up subs against offensive teams, but it can still contribute in games against them with fast, decently powerful shadow balls and use the wisp to screw with some physical attackers. And that Unaware Clefable might not be getting its work in against a stall team who lacks powerful set up sweepers, but it can still set up a sweep with Calm Mind.
But you put the majority of the metagame up against a Baton Pass team, and all they end up doing is forcing a switch to the BP team's best counter to it, then become set-up bait.
See what happens when you just have a generic, good pokemon out, who you do not specifically equip with tools to defeat Baton Pass. Take, for example, a standard King's Shield + 3 attacks Aegislash set, the most common set on the most common pokemon on the ladder.
Suppose Aegislash is in its most favorable matchup right now, it's out against Espeon (because why would you bring it in against an unfavorable matchup). Obviously, Espeon is going to switch, because it doesn't want to take a shadow ball the the face, nor repeated shadow sneaks. You look at your options.
Shadow sneak looks nice, since you can get a solid hit on Espeon before it switches, right? Well, Espeons on Baton Pass teams are usually defensive so they can switch in to threats more easily, as Baton Pass teams can not guarantee their team members get in without a scratch each time.
4 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 122-146 (36.5 - 43.7%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Scolipede got an Iron Defense in, you're definitely going nowhere with that one.
So you could Shadow Sneak for some chip damage, or, since the opponent will obviously switch, you can try and outplay the switch. You can try and hit the switch-in hard, but for Aegislash (and the rest of the metagame, mostly), this isn't possible; at least one of the six pokemon can take a few attacks from whatever you have out. In this case, Zapdos is your opponent's least risky option. Against any other play style besides Volt-turn, you can try and double switch, but you can't here, because Baton Pass gets to switch after you do, and they'll just bring in something else that can set up on your switch in.
So you click Shadow Sneak to hit Espeon for some chip damage, or maybe you click Shadow Ball to get as much as you can from Zapdos, but either way, Zapdos now has a free turn to use Charge as you switch to the appropriate answer to it, and you bring out a pokemon that can take on Zapdos.
If any of the other five pokemon remaining can take a few attacks from your best answer to Zapdos, you basically repeat this, only now the opponent has +1 Special Defense compared to before. With other play styles, you can force Zapdos to switch out, once again being able to get a free hit as it does so and wear the team down, but enough turns with Baton Pass, and they'll have boosted so many times your free turns on their switches mean your attack bounces off their mountain of defense boosts.
Basically, Baton Pass shits on it's non-counters way harder than the other playstyles, and the only checks to BP chains fall into 3 categories.
1. Pokemon that can stop the boosts from stacking up, like through Haze or Taunt, so you can wear down switch-ins to your pokemon in the traditional manner rather than watching your attacks deflect off +4 to both defenses behind a sub.
2. Pokemon so powerful and dangerous that none of the six opponents can both switch in and set up on it, like Landorus-I is often cited (though I have never used this one personally, I hate it), since nothing can take two hits to switch in and set up a boost.
3. Surprise attacks on pokemon that allow it to faint a member of a Baton Pass team when their guard is down, like Sturdy+Mirror Coat Avalugg.
Anything else is practically dead weight against a Baton Pass team that they use to set up.
Which means you are either putting a lot of pressure on one or two pokemon to defeat an entire team so you are very weak to misplays or even the cheap sash spore smeargle, or you're using a lot more pokemon to check Baton Pass which is obviously overcentralizing.
haunter
Banned deucer.
Please, read the OP and lurk more before posting here. We don't expect anyone who posts in this thread to be a top player, but if you have no experience with Espeon (be it direct or indirect) on Baton Pass chains, then you really shouldn't be posting here.
We very well know that Baton Pass was a problem in past Generations, but it's became a much bigger problem when MB Espeon was released and an even worse one in Gen 6, with SB Scolipede. This is why we also considered the combo ban listed as option #3 in my opening post.
Finally dude, 2 things:
1) don't make double posts;
2) it's spelt Espeon.
Also, to those who were wondering why I posted this thread here rather than VR, I want to give everyone the opportunity to weigh in on such a thorny subject. So far, I'm quite satisfied with the general quality of this thread.
Oh man, games like this are not what I want to see in Pokemon going into the future.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-126893257
Also who knew Heart Swap goes through subs and Magic Bounce?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-126893257
Also who knew Heart Swap goes through subs and Magic Bounce?
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Denisss. He came up with that and even put it on his RMT.
Though the guy who used it in the battle was kind of stupid, trying to race for boosts when he had Heart Swap. When I'm the one using it I just lead with Espeon, grab an Sub, switch to Smeargle, use Ingrain and then do nothing until my opponent starts attacking. Then I steal their boosts and ragequit ensues.
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I'm currently sitting at 2623 coil and my experience laddering has altered my view on Baton Pass being 'broken' or 'over-powered', and as a result my firm stance leaning towards a limit or ban has been weakened. The reason for the huge uproar when the strategy took hold on the ladder was because teams were not prepared for it. Most players were riding the coattails of Masterclass and they were building around the tiers bulky Pokemon in an attempt to create the new stall god team. The other players were enamored by the infamous DeoSharp core and building offensive teams around it. There was no creativity on the ladder because every team was a variation of the aforementioned styles. But after Deneiss came and fucked everyones teams up with his Baton Pass strategy, teams started to prepare for Baton Pass. Now stall players run Haze on Quagsire, and more people run Roar on Tyranitar; preying on Baton Pass' obvious weaknesses which are phasing and eliminating stat changes with status moves. Now that I've adjust my teams to deal with Baton Pass like others have done it's not so bad and in my opinion it's not as threatening as other play-styles because you already know the movesets of the popular baton passing Pokemon. With little prediction and well placed taunts, roars, or whirlwinds (or whatever status moves helps) it becomes very easy to deal with Baton Pass.
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Is It wrong that I was crying when I saw this match... (not a good LOL crying but legitimate "OMG is this the direction of the Meta" crying")
but on to the next point
Though I would like to think I'm pretty informed, but can you elaborate a little more on what would be the collateral damage from option #3? I know in the previous thread leading up to this, someone mention SB Sharpedo + MB Xatu; to which I say who gives a rip.
If Option #2 were to be taking effect in the near future, though not as OP, BP players can still run Scolipede + Espeon + [Slyveon/Vaporeon/Mew/Smeargle] and still get the "free turn" abuse that you mentioned in item #2 AND maintain some level of switch initiative as mentioned in item #3 of your (better than you give yourself credit for) manifesto.
In a way, the triumvirate in question can still be spammed by many people as a "OHKO in a card game" out; where people can use a "BP Core" in combination with other mons that provide late-game synergy in the event that an opponent is carrying more than one check/counter to BP like Clear Smog Amoongus, Haze Unaware Quagsire, Prankster Taunt Users, etc... planning for a team that overloads on these counters and adjusting accordingly.
This is especially prevalent because as we mentioned ad nauseam in the previous thread, the checks to BP run on borderline passable (Haze Quag, CS Gus, etc...) to completely and utterly ridiculous (Shed-FUCKING!!!-Ninja... Seriously!!!)
Lastly, I STRONGLY agree on your last comment about XY OU devolving. As a person who thoroughly enjoyed rating OU teams, I really liked when someone would try to inject some ingenuity into their team, but alas, XY OU is stale and because of this, crap like Prankster Swag, Endless battle and now BP Chains, pop up and take the Meta by storm because people simply just want to out-slug one another and take what was once a thought provoking endeavor and make it a mindless click-rinse and repeat exercise while regurgitating the same concepts over and over.
Hope to hear a response soon.
P.S. #freeblaziken now trending on twitter ^_^
Ok, I usually dont post on these topics, but i have to ask. Why is no one talking about mega pinsir as a hard counter to baton pass teams? I have yet to loose or see any team with a MP loose to a baton pass strategy.
If they lead with scolopede, mega pinsir transforms and then swords dances. If the scolopede used anything other than substitute, the BP is probably going to loose on the spot. Return hits so hard that if the scolopede stays in it will 1hko even through Iron Guard. If you have a sash, pinsir can then follow up with priority quick attack and then you are down a poke. Pass to any other poke, even a fully defensive zapdos, and you are likely just going to die to a combination of return and quick attack. Even if you get a sub up, your options are all bad. The sub will be broken before you can do anything else, and return will still 1hko after iron guard. Anything other than zapdos that you switch in is going to risk being 1hkoed by +2 quick attack or +2 return, and without attack boosts none of the pokes on a BP team besides zapdos can seriously threaten MP.
Even if you pass Iron Guard to zapdos, you are still in trouble. A zapdos that switches in to mega pinsir in that situation can expect to take between 40-50%. Switch anything else in, and the damage is going to be much worse (and you still have to deal with its priority).
Combine this with the massive dropoff of baton pass strategies recently, and I think you have a good case for leaving things as they are.
If they lead with scolopede, mega pinsir transforms and then swords dances. If the scolopede used anything other than substitute, the BP is probably going to loose on the spot. Return hits so hard that if the scolopede stays in it will 1hko even through Iron Guard. If you have a sash, pinsir can then follow up with priority quick attack and then you are down a poke. Pass to any other poke, even a fully defensive zapdos, and you are likely just going to die to a combination of return and quick attack. Even if you get a sub up, your options are all bad. The sub will be broken before you can do anything else, and return will still 1hko after iron guard. Anything other than zapdos that you switch in is going to risk being 1hkoed by +2 quick attack or +2 return, and without attack boosts none of the pokes on a BP team besides zapdos can seriously threaten MP.
Even if you pass Iron Guard to zapdos, you are still in trouble. A zapdos that switches in to mega pinsir in that situation can expect to take between 40-50%. Switch anything else in, and the damage is going to be much worse (and you still have to deal with its priority).
Combine this with the massive dropoff of baton pass strategies recently, and I think you have a good case for leaving things as they are.
It is my opinion that no one should seriously consider option 1. If 1 team can really shit on most teams and styles, some shit's wrong. BP alone caused 3 pokemon that really don't belong in OU to rise in just three months. This is completely ridiculous, and outright bullshit. Idc if you want 2 or 3, but anyone who votes 1 is obviously inexperienced with BP. Our top 2 players got where they were using BP. That's sad. Let's fix that. Fuck BP IMO.
Warning: giant text wall incoming; rather than me posting a bunch of times on this thread, I’m going to get it all out in one post.
I spent a good amount of time watching dEnIssSs (why did he have to go so crazy with the caps?) last night and noticed two things:
1) dEnIssSs is really good at predicting his opponent and is able to beat some opponents who counterteam just to beat him by outplaying them.
2) Despite the first point, many people still think dEnIssSs is a shitty player because he uses Baton Pass.
I find it sad how people try to delegitimatize dEnIssSs for using Baton Pass. He did what any good player should do; he found trends in the metagame which he could take advantage of and he did so. Just because he used a non-traditional team archetype to peak #1 on the ladder does not make him a lesser player. Baton Pass was mostly considered a shitty gimmick that no one could get very high on the ladder with in previous generations, and was even still considered nothing more than a gimmick at the beginning of Gen VI. dEnIssSs deserves a lot of credit for almost singlehandedly making an obscure playstyle very good instead of just using obvious stuff like DeoSharp like everyone else was doing. He put a lot of work into making his team and how to play it in order to become the best Baton Pass player and the best player on PS overall for a long time and he should be recognized for doing that.
I’m tired of hearing how Baton Pass takes no skill to use. dEnIssSs is the only player who has managed to take Baton Pass to the top. He got to the top of the ladder not only because his team is good, but because he actually knows how to play with it extremely well. All of the other wannabes who steal his team and try to ladder with it only have success because of players who don’t even try to stop Baton Pass. Most other players who try Baton Pass play like a chicken with its head cut off when they run into something which can take on Baton Pass.
While making an attempt to ladder with Baton Pass on the suspect ladder, I saw many variants Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Deoxys-S (Taunt + Knock Off), Bisharp (Taunt), Mega Gyarados (Taunt), Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir which beat Baton Pass fairly consistently. All of these are more than viable threats in OU. I did not see any shit like Haze Murkrow or Haze Quagsire on the suspect ladder. Now I know that the common response from people is that they would never run something like Taunt Mega Gyarados if it were not for Baton Pass and that is probably true. However, just because a moveset is not optimal for a Pokemon does not make it unviable. Taunt Mega Gyarados is plenty viable; it just doesn’t do as well against other threats. Just because some countermeasures for Baton Pass are slightly suboptimal against other teams doesn’t mean that Baton Pass should be nerfed. That is part of the choice you have make when teambuilding. Do you want to run Taunt and beat Baton Pass or do you want to run Ice Fang and beat Dragonite? No one moveset is ever going to defeat every single threat in the game nor should it. So Baton Pass forcing teams to change one moveslot to beat it does not justify a nerf. No one is entitled to have a team which can beat every other team; people should be expected to innovate to be able to beat as many other teams out there as possible including BP.
Because it has been well established that Baton Pass has viable counters (just look at how the suspect ladder has shut down Baton Pass) and that it takes skill to use and to beat it, I see a lot of people using subjective language like “unhealthy for the metagame” and “cancer” to justify a nerf. Whether Baton Pass is fun to play against is not relevant when considering whether to ban; if it is a competitive strategy, it deserves to stay.
I know that dEnIssSs himself supports Option 2, and I give props to him for not fighting like hell to keep his team because he deserves to keep it. I also think others should stop using his team, so I am not really concerned about Baton Pass itself. The reason I am concerned with Options 2 and 3 is the precedent that it sets going forward. If someone else becomes really innovative and creates a Trick Room team or some other non-traditional team archetype which peaks number 1 on the ladder, are we going to nerf / ban that too? Is Smogon’s response to innovative teambuilding going to be to find innovative solutions to beat those teams or to use the banlist to get rid of those teams? The former is the only option for a serious competitive battling community. Sorry for the excessively long post, and good luck to those who want to vote for Option 1.
I spent a good amount of time watching dEnIssSs (why did he have to go so crazy with the caps?) last night and noticed two things:
1) dEnIssSs is really good at predicting his opponent and is able to beat some opponents who counterteam just to beat him by outplaying them.
2) Despite the first point, many people still think dEnIssSs is a shitty player because he uses Baton Pass.
I find it sad how people try to delegitimatize dEnIssSs for using Baton Pass. He did what any good player should do; he found trends in the metagame which he could take advantage of and he did so. Just because he used a non-traditional team archetype to peak #1 on the ladder does not make him a lesser player. Baton Pass was mostly considered a shitty gimmick that no one could get very high on the ladder with in previous generations, and was even still considered nothing more than a gimmick at the beginning of Gen VI. dEnIssSs deserves a lot of credit for almost singlehandedly making an obscure playstyle very good instead of just using obvious stuff like DeoSharp like everyone else was doing. He put a lot of work into making his team and how to play it in order to become the best Baton Pass player and the best player on PS overall for a long time and he should be recognized for doing that.
I’m tired of hearing how Baton Pass takes no skill to use. dEnIssSs is the only player who has managed to take Baton Pass to the top. He got to the top of the ladder not only because his team is good, but because he actually knows how to play with it extremely well. All of the other wannabes who steal his team and try to ladder with it only have success because of players who don’t even try to stop Baton Pass. Most other players who try Baton Pass play like a chicken with its head cut off when they run into something which can take on Baton Pass.
While making an attempt to ladder with Baton Pass on the suspect ladder, I saw many variants Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Deoxys-S (Taunt + Knock Off), Bisharp (Taunt), Mega Gyarados (Taunt), Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir which beat Baton Pass fairly consistently. All of these are more than viable threats in OU. I did not see any shit like Haze Murkrow or Haze Quagsire on the suspect ladder. Now I know that the common response from people is that they would never run something like Taunt Mega Gyarados if it were not for Baton Pass and that is probably true. However, just because a moveset is not optimal for a Pokemon does not make it unviable. Taunt Mega Gyarados is plenty viable; it just doesn’t do as well against other threats. Just because some countermeasures for Baton Pass are slightly suboptimal against other teams doesn’t mean that Baton Pass should be nerfed. That is part of the choice you have make when teambuilding. Do you want to run Taunt and beat Baton Pass or do you want to run Ice Fang and beat Dragonite? No one moveset is ever going to defeat every single threat in the game nor should it. So Baton Pass forcing teams to change one moveslot to beat it does not justify a nerf. No one is entitled to have a team which can beat every other team; people should be expected to innovate to be able to beat as many other teams out there as possible including BP.
Because it has been well established that Baton Pass has viable counters (just look at how the suspect ladder has shut down Baton Pass) and that it takes skill to use and to beat it, I see a lot of people using subjective language like “unhealthy for the metagame” and “cancer” to justify a nerf. Whether Baton Pass is fun to play against is not relevant when considering whether to ban; if it is a competitive strategy, it deserves to stay.
I know that dEnIssSs himself supports Option 2, and I give props to him for not fighting like hell to keep his team because he deserves to keep it. I also think others should stop using his team, so I am not really concerned about Baton Pass itself. The reason I am concerned with Options 2 and 3 is the precedent that it sets going forward. If someone else becomes really innovative and creates a Trick Room team or some other non-traditional team archetype which peaks number 1 on the ladder, are we going to nerf / ban that too? Is Smogon’s response to innovative teambuilding going to be to find innovative solutions to beat those teams or to use the banlist to get rid of those teams? The former is the only option for a serious competitive battling community. Sorry for the excessively long post, and good luck to those who want to vote for Option 1.
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