XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

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Reymedy

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Okay just got reqs (I'm 4 points short but fuck it right ?) :

1) Who the fuck is denis already
2) I didn't see many bp, the only ones i saw sucked, and talonflame + pivoting handled it pretty fine. Honnestly my team wasn't meant to "counter" BPs, and I used several different teams, but bar one loss, I always did fine against the cheap stuff users. Most of the time they're predictable as fuck anyway. So I think that this thing is getting waaaaaaaaaaay to much hype, it's really not that good actually and the players doing the suspect realised it (only a few are using it, and they're not at the top afaik). Yea I know someone has been #1 on the normal ladder and is now sitting here taking the dust. But who is playing on the ladder ? Not me for sure, the suspect one is already lame enough :D
3) Why am I gonna ban this shit ? This is just lame, I mean, unless I finally see a reason why the pokemon competitive scene needs something as linear and retarded as baton pass, I'll be willing to kick it out of everybody's sight.
4) I tried the team, and unless I suck with it (Errr, that's probably true though), I didn't find it that good, and I had a better ratio playing my own teams. So yea, I tried it, and it was boring, I wanted to punch myself in the balls.
 
Okay just got reqs (I'm 4 points short but fuck it right ?) :

1) Who the fuck is denis already
2) I didn't see many bp, the only ones i saw sucked, and talonflame + pivoting handled it pretty fine. Honnestly my team wasn't meant to "counter" BPs, and I used several different teams, but bar one loss, I always did fine against the cheap stuff users. Most of the time they're predictable as fuck anyway. So I think that this thing is getting waaaaaaaaaaay to much hype, it's really not that good actually and the players doing the suspect realised it (only a few are using it, and they're not at the top afaik). Yea I know someone has been #1 on the normal ladder and is now sitting here taking the dust. But who is playing on the ladder ? Not me for sure, the suspect one is already lame enough :D
3) Why am I gonna ban this shit ? This is just lame, I mean, unless I finally see a reason why the pokemon competitive scene needs something as linear and retarded as baton pass, I'll be willing to kick it out of everybody's sight.
4) I tried the team, and unless I suck with it (Errr, that's probably true though), I didn't find it that good, and I had a better ratio playing my own teams. So yea, I tried it, and it was boring, I wanted to punch myself in the balls.
Well, I've highlighted one part of your post because it is very relevant to why Baton Pass should be banned. I've been running some stuff that is supposed to be decent against Baton Pass, meaning no hard counters, but if they played correctly, then they could beat me very comfortably. The main point is, that if somebody is that predictable and making misplays, even when using a pre-built team that basically plays for you, what the hell are they doing higher up the ladder anyway?
Baton Pass is really strong in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it, and the fact that people who don't know how to use something which is that easy to use are actually getting decent ladder ratings should alarm you. It is even worse on the regular ladder, which I have slightly more experience with, because people aren't over-prepared for it, and Baton Pass can literally pick up free wins against otherwise very solid teams. I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶b̶a̶s̶h̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶ ̶w̶h̶o̶'̶v̶e̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶l̶a̶d̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶r̶a̶t̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶s̶u̶d̶d̶e̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶o̶t̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶s̶i̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶r̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶B̶a̶t̶o̶n̶ ̶P̶a̶s̶s̶,̶ Hold on a minute, yes, I do.
 

Reymedy

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They're not at the top of the suspect (I don't see the people that used it against me anywhere near the top 10), as I precised in the very post you're quoting good sir.
And yea, don't go theorizing on a part of my post only made to bash the baton pass users in general, that's not gonna lead you anywhere x)
The only part of my post that is actually relevant is that BP brings jack shit to the game we all enjoy to play. It's a pure match-up based playstyle that doesn't allow many interactions between the two battlers and it's such a shame that it is doable to bring full retard BP teams when the mechanism (baton passing a boost) is so interesting -and I'm saying that as a player whose first attempt to build a competitive team was around Celeby SD + Terrakion v:-

Ups, posted too much in here, I'm out !
 
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Ok, I usually dont post on these topics, but i have to ask. Why is no one talking about mega pinsir as a hard counter to baton pass teams? I have yet to loose or see any team with a MP loose to a baton pass strategy.

If they lead with scolopede, mega pinsir transforms and then swords dances. If the scolopede used anything other than substitute, the BP is probably going to loose on the spot. Return hits so hard that if the scolopede stays in it will 1hko even through Iron Guard. If you have a sash, pinsir can then follow up with priority quick attack and then you are down a poke. Pass to any other poke, even a fully defensive zapdos, and you are likely just going to die to a combination of return and quick attack. Even if you get a sub up, your options are all bad. The sub will be broken before you can do anything else, and return will still 1hko after iron guard. Anything other than zapdos that you switch in is going to risk being 1hkoed by +2 quick attack or +2 return, and without attack boosts none of the pokes on a BP team besides zapdos can seriously threaten MP.

Even if you pass Iron Guard to zapdos, you are still in trouble. A zapdos that switches in to mega pinsir in that situation can expect to take between 40-50%. Switch anything else in, and the damage is going to be much worse (and you still have to deal with its priority).

Combine this with the massive dropoff of baton pass strategies recently, and I think you have a good case for leaving things as they are.
Mega Pinsir checks BP pretty well but it's far from a hard counter. If you're running BP and see your opponent has a Pinsir, then don't lead with Scolipede for once. Lead with Zapdos and your opponent will be in a bad way if they lead with Pinsir.

Warning: giant text wall incoming; rather than me posting a bunch of times on this thread, I’m going to get it all out in one post.

I spent a good amount of time watching dEnIssSs (why did he have to go so crazy with the caps?) last night and noticed two things:

1) dEnIssSs is really good at predicting his opponent and is able to beat some opponents who counterteam just to beat him by outplaying them.

2) Despite the first point, many people still think dEnIssSs is a shitty player because he uses Baton Pass.

I find it sad how people try to delegitimatize dEnIssSs for using Baton Pass. He did what any good player should do; he found trends in the metagame which he could take advantage of and he did so. Just because he used a non-traditional team archetype to peak #1 on the ladder does not make him a lesser player. Baton Pass was mostly considered a shitty gimmick that no one could get very high on the ladder with in previous generations, and was even still considered nothing more than a gimmick at the beginning of Gen VI. dEnIssSs deserves a lot of credit for almost singlehandedly making an obscure playstyle very good instead of just using obvious stuff like DeoSharp like everyone else was doing. He put a lot of work into making his team and how to play it in order to become the best Baton Pass player and the best player on PS overall for a long time and he should be recognized for doing that.

I’m tired of hearing how Baton Pass takes no skill to use. dEnIssSs is the only player who has managed to take Baton Pass to the top. He got to the top of the ladder not only because his team is good, but because he actually knows how to play with it extremely well. All of the other wannabes who steal his team and try to ladder with it only have success because of players who don’t even try to stop Baton Pass. Most other players who try Baton Pass play like a chicken with its head cut off when they run into something which can take on Baton Pass.

While making an attempt to ladder with Baton Pass on the suspect ladder, I saw many variants Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Deoxys-S (Taunt + Knock Off), Bisharp (Taunt), Mega Gyarados (Taunt), Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir which beat Baton Pass fairly consistently. All of these are more than viable threats in OU. I did not see any shit like Haze Murkrow or Haze Quagsire on the suspect ladder. Now I know that the common response from people is that they would never run something like Taunt Mega Gyarados if it were not for Baton Pass and that is probably true. However, just because a moveset is not optimal for a Pokemon does not make it unviable. Taunt Mega Gyarados is plenty viable; it just doesn’t do as well against other threats. Just because some countermeasures for Baton Pass are slightly suboptimal against other teams doesn’t mean that Baton Pass should be nerfed. That is part of the choice you have make when teambuilding. Do you want to run Taunt and beat Baton Pass or do you want to run Ice Fang and beat Dragonite? No one moveset is ever going to defeat every single threat in the game nor should it. So Baton Pass forcing teams to change one moveslot to beat it does not justify a nerf. No one is entitled to have a team which can beat every other team; people should be expected to innovate to be able to beat as many other teams out there as possible including BP.

Because it has been well established that Baton Pass has viable counters (just look at how the suspect ladder has shut down Baton Pass) and that it takes skill to use and to beat it, I see a lot of people using subjective language like “unhealthy for the metagame” and “cancer” to justify a nerf. Whether Baton Pass is fun to play against is not relevant when considering whether to ban; if it is a competitive strategy, it deserves to stay.

I know that dEnIssSs himself supports Option 2, and I give props to him for not fighting like hell to keep his team because he deserves to keep it. I also think others should stop using his team, so I am not really concerned about Baton Pass itself. The reason I am concerned with Options 2 and 3 is the precedent that it sets going forward. If someone else becomes really innovative and creates a Trick Room team or some other non-traditional team archetype which peaks number 1 on the ladder, are we going to nerf / ban that too? Is Smogon’s response to innovative teambuilding going to be to find innovative solutions to beat those teams or to use the banlist to get rid of those teams? The former is the only option for a serious competitive battling community. Sorry for the excessively long post, and good luck to those who want to vote for Option 1.
I've read most of this thread and haven't seen any personal attacks on this dEnIssSs fellow. I don't see how it matters if people think he has skillz or not. As for your claim that the suspect metagame has adapted to BP, I'd say that's putting it lightly. People are building teams specifically to counter BP and yes, these teams are often good at doing this but they generally perform significantly worse against all other teams as a result of compensating for BP. A metagame so centralized by one playstyle is not one in which I wish to participate.

By the way, the tiering process itself is subjective and everyone arguing for one option or another on this thread, including you, has done so subjectively, although, admittedly, some are more informed than others. You can't discount what others are saying because they use "subjective language." In fact, many people on this thread have backed up their claims with stats and calcs, which is about as close to objectivity as you can get in this process.

Not supporting options 2 and 3 because of the precedent you think they'll set is a poor decision. Actually, your justification for not supporting a BP nerf is a slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy. You're basically saying "it doesn't matter if BP is broken or not. We should leave it as is because if we ban it, something that's not OP at all might be banned/nerfed in the future because the nerfing of BP might turn voters into mindless drones who vote to ban anything that comes up for a suspect test." I highly doubt the kind of people who participate in these discussions at length and bother to get reqs and vote are going to become ban-happy if BP is nerfed or that they will be more inclined to be lenient in the future if option 1 wins. We're not all going to have our decision making processes irrevocably altered based on the results of this suspect test.
 
You can counter this thing with Haxorus or MegaGyarados with taunt, as with moldbreaker they will deny the magic bounce and they can break the subs (Haxorus with dual chop?) Still its pretty random and not a very viable team thing.
You can beat a baton pass team for sure, but the problem is most of the times you have to run a special counter team for it, a "normal team" will fail in most of the cases if the baton passer user is a good one, which is the reason why I think it should be banned, either totally or just the combo that its been shown.
Funny way to counter this thing? Get Manaphy and use Heart Swap, you ignore the magic bounce, the substitute and you turn the table xDD
 
I've read most of this thread and haven't seen any personal attacks on this dEnIssSs fellow. I don't see how it matters if people think he has skillz or not. As for your claim that the suspect metagame has adapted to BP, I'd say that's putting it lightly. People are building teams specifically to counter BP and yes, these teams are often good at doing this but they generally perform significantly worse against all other teams as a result of compensating for BP. A metagame so centralized by one playstyle is not one in which I wish to participate.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure that there have been plenty, but the likely case is that Smogon has a decent moderating team watching this thread closely to ensure that it doesn't involve into a total insult-fest.

And I for one am very grateful for that.

Uhhhh, I actually have nothing else to contribute beyond that, I've spoken at length on the subject already.
 
I realize that this post might not be the most well-informed, but I think that there are several potential strats to deal with BP. That being said, I'm saying this based on things outside of suspect test that I have seen.

The first is Psych Up. I have made a habit of relying on this in Mono matches because it is the only way that my Regirock can last more than a few turns against BPers. Since, from what I've seen, most people BP Attack and Speed, getting a tank with Psych Up will allow them to absorb the initial attack, and then gain the speed and attack to potentially OHKO them. The strat is not perfect by any stretch of the word, but it is still a viable strat I have seen work on several occasions.

Next up is one that many stray away from, mostly because of the self-destructive nature of the move. Haze and similar moves that eliminate stat effects have usually been overlooked because people do not want to lose their own stats in order to bring their opponent's down. Not as practical as Psych Up, but still something to consider.

I don't think I need to go over Roar and Whirlwind because they do not work on everything. If you look at Magic Bounce or Suction Cups, those mons aren't going anywhere, making these moves useless against them, with Magic Bounce being the greater of two evils.
However, considering that most pokemon that have Suction Cups are better suited with their alternative abilities, the likelihood of seeing that is sort of low. Malamar is more useful with Contrary in a BP team because of the stat raises from Superpower and Cradily can be a threat with Storm Drain in the same way that Gastrodon can. The only one to really worry about is Octillery, because either Sniper or SC are viable for it.

Again, not an expert on the subject, but I hope that this helps contribute to the discussion.

P.S. Why is it that a lot of the BPers I see use mainly Bug PKMN? I thought it was all Ninjask, because that is more than half of the BP usage I have ever seen. However, I noticed the most common chain involves Scoliopede and Ninjask. Just wondering if anyone else noticed that.
 
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I realize that this post might not be the most well-informed, but I think that there are several potential strats to deal with BP. That being said, I'm saying this based on things outside of suspect test that I have seen.

The first is Psych Up. I have made a habit of relying on this in Mono matches because it is the only way that my Regirock can last more than a few turns against BPers. Since, from what I've seen, most people BP Attack and Speed, getting a tank with Psych Up will allow them to absorb the initial attack, and then gain the speed and attack to potentially OHKO them. The strat is not perfect by any stretch of the word, but it is still a viable strat I have seen work on several occasions.

Next up is one that many stray away from, mostly because of the self-destructive nature of the move. Haze and similar moves that eliminate stat effects have usually been overlooked because people do not want to lose their own stats in order to bring their opponent's down. Not as practical as Psych Up, but still something to consider.

I don't think I need to go over Roar and Whirlwind because they do not work on everything. If you look at Magic Bounce or Suction Cups, those mons aren't going anywhere, making these moves useless against them, with Magic Bounce being the greater of two evils.
However, considering that most pokemon that have Suction Cups are better suited with their alternative abilities, the likelihood of seeing that is sort of low. Malamar is more useful with Contrary in a BP team because of the stat raises from Superpower and Cradily can be a threat with Storm Drain in the same way that Gastrodon can. The only one to really worry about is Octillery, because either Sniper or SC are viable for it.

Again, not an expert on the subject, but I hope that this helps contribute to the discussion.

P.S. Why is it that a lot of the BPers I see use mainly Bug PKMN? I thought it was all Ninjask, because that is more than half of the BP usage I have ever seen. However, I noticed the most common chain involves Scoliopede and Ninjask. Just wondering if anyone else noticed that.
Unless you are packing Stored Power or your opponent has no defensive boosts whatsoever, Psych Up is going to be pretty useless, especially seeing how they can just proceed to setup on you. Not sure who told you that BP teams mostly boost Attack because, unless I am severely mistaken, most don't even have SD or something to boost that stat.

I am pretty sure that Haze has been more than addressed, Haze Quagsire specifically seeing how everything else would just die unless the opponent is unaware of the move. (I'm so punny XP)

Suction Cups is irrelevant altogether, the main issues with Roar and Whirlwind are Magic Bounce, Ingrain and Soundproof.

Most teams nowadays run Scolipede since it outclasses Ninjask. Not sure where you see people running both.
 

Clone

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http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-572837

This was from a tournament on the Frost server. The guy I faced had beaten 5 people before me, including someone I know whos much better than me (the best Ive done is get him down to a 1-0). The entire time, he was using DeniSsSSSS's BP team, and didnt have any problems with anyone. When it was my turn, I knew I was gonna lose from the start. So I just did what I could until it was Excadrill vs. Sylveon. Sylveon had peed and defense boosts, while I was in sand (with Sand Rush). I was lucky to live the Stored Power crit a few turns earlier, and come turn 23, I got the clutch crit.

To those who say "Oh, you can counter BP its not OP," I say to you: Yeah, you can, but you need an entire team to do that. Otherwise it can be played around. Sand Offense is one of the best playstyles in the Meta right now, and even then I needed a crit to get the clutch win. My team isnt the best, but this still proves the point of how broken BP is.

Option 2 is my vote. Scolipede and Espeon on their own arent broken with BP. Its the full chains.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/frost-ou-572837

This was from a tournament on the Frost server. The guy I faced had beaten 5 people before me, including someone I know whos much better than me (the best Ive done is get him down to a 1-0). The entire time, he was using DeniSsSSSS's BP team, and didnt have any problems with anyone. When it was my turn, I knew I was gonna lose from the start. So I just did what I could until it was Excadrill vs. Sylveon. Sylveon had peed and defense boosts, while I was in sand (with Sand Rush). I was lucky to live the Stored Power crit a few turns earlier, and come turn 23, I got the clutch crit.

To those who say "Oh, you can counter BP its not OP," I say to you: Yeah, you can, but you need an entire team to do that. Otherwise it can be played around. Sand Offense is one of the best playstyles in the Meta right now, and even then I needed a crit to get the clutch win. My team isnt the best, but this still proves the point of how broken BP is.

Option 2 is my vote. Scolipede and Espeon on their own arent broken with BP. Its the full chains.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...und-3-baton-pass.3507765/page-14#post-5498377

Honestly though, what does that replay even show us? That you beat BP only because of a crit? That provides absolutely nothing new of value to this conversation because that was practically accepted before anyone even started talking. Someone should really include in the OP that people shouldn't post replays showing us how they beat or didn't beat BP with or without its counters in one specific battle because they are, more or less, useless individually.
 

Clone

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Psych Up.
Regirock .
I'm not the best OU player, but I can tell you that those are... Pretty bad. Like, Silly Things you've seen in OU bad. Now if you make it work, you make it work, I'm not gonna go "LOL HE USES REGIROCK THE SCRUB" (That's for the aforementioned Silly Things thread. Because Assault Vest Pikachu. In Ubers.)
something something Suction Cups
You mention Suction Cups... No Baton Pass team uses Suction Cups. Hell, I don't think anything with Suction Cups LEARNS said move. Ingrain Smeargle does have the same effect (and is probably what you were thinking of)
Malimar, Octillery and Cradily
Annnnnd this is where I find out you know pretty much NOTHING about the meta. I'd hate to be blunt like that, but when you're mentioning thing I've NEVER seen used in OU (Not even the crap lower ladder) it's pretty obvious that you know next to nothing. Id honestly reccomend that you read up on the meta nd just generally Golurk more.



Also to throw in my 2 cents on Baton Pass, it's a pain in the ass to deal with and even with my optimised OU team I can't break through Scolli after some ID boosts (Maybe its due to the fact that I have 4 1/2 physical attackers...)
Also, MB Espy is a bitch if my because I can't Spore it to death (Unless I Bullet Seed on the switch, but by then Scolli would of got some ID boosts because Substitute and AHHHHH)
I apologise if this "isn't adding to the conversation" but there's not really much to add in account of BP, it's inevitably going to be nerfed, the only question is, ate people going to pick 2 or 3? (I'd pick 2 if only because QuickPass Scolli sounds fun)
Very quick edit: dammit I got Ninja'd by Derpinator >_>
 

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And your support is one single replay in which you won because of a crit?
My support is the metric ton of battles Ive watched/played in that end in either HO winning via crit or straight up losing. I only posted one instance.
 
My support is the metric ton of battles Ive watched/played in that end in either HO winning via crit or straight up losing. I only posted one instance.
In which case, your replay was useless.

People said HO could win if they applied pressure correctly and prevented the opponent from gaining momentum. In your specific case, you could have easily forced a switch but you instead decided to spam an SE attack that obviously wasn't going to hit, which isn't what applying pressure is. On turn 5, you had Latios versus an unboosted Scolipede that had just been brought in. The Protect was obvious for miles because they had brought it into Latios, so they clearly were going to boost using your Latios. You proceeded to Psyshock anyway instead of bringing in TF which would have forced the opponent to switch out to Vaporeon or Zapdos, which is a fairly straightforward and obvious switch. Regardless of which one, you would have been in an ideal position against a BP team. They had noboosts whatsoever, while you had Sand Rush Excadrill, Talonflame and Bisharp, which could all easily keep momentum from being built up as fast as it did.

So, your claim of HO not being as great against BP as it is made out to be is poorly supported if all that you have to provide is misplays/poor decisions.
 

Tokyo Tom

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While making an attempt to ladder with Baton Pass on the suspect ladder, I saw many variants Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Deoxys-S (Taunt + Knock Off), Bisharp (Taunt), Mega Gyarados (Taunt), Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir which beat Baton Pass fairly consistently. All of these are more than viable threats in OU. I did not see any shit like Haze Murkrow or Haze Quagsire on the suspect ladder. Now I know that the common response from people is that they would never run something like Taunt Mega Gyarados if it were not for Baton Pass and that is probably true. However, just because a moveset is not optimal for a Pokemon does not make it unviable. Taunt Mega Gyarados is plenty viable; it just doesn’t do as well against other threats. Just because some countermeasures for Baton Pass are slightly suboptimal against other teams doesn’t mean that Baton Pass should be nerfed. That is part of the choice you have make when teambuilding. Do you want to run Taunt and beat Baton Pass or do you want to run Ice Fang and beat Dragonite? No one moveset is ever going to defeat every single threat in the game nor should it. So Baton Pass forcing teams to change one moveslot to beat it does not justify a nerf. No one is entitled to have a team which can beat every other team; people should be expected to innovate to be able to beat as many other teams out there as possible including BP.
I just wanted to say that, while you make a fair point, you are probably seeing a rise in these particular 'Mons on the suspect ladder because, in the OP, Haunter said "Remember to abuse full Baton Pass chains as much as you can, in order to have an informed opinion on the topic." This would mean the people going for reqs would either use Baton Pass, or carry something on their teams to stop it, since the likelyhood of finding an opponent w/ Baton Pass on the suspect ladder is p. high (or at least, you'd expect it to be with that message in the OP). Although I didn't run into too much full BP when getting my reqs, I did edit my team a bit and put Haze on my Greninja to prepare for BP, something I (and most people) wouldn't normally do.

While some of the 'Mons you listed are very viable (and I just want to add stuff like Taunt M-Gyara is used to get past stall and stuff like Skarm as well as BP), others, like Deo-S w/ Taunt and Knock Off, aren't. Offensive Deo-S needs move slots to run Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, Superpower, with Knock Off being more for Aegislash switch-ins. The combination of Taunt + Knock Off, imo, is very specific and doesn't exactly help Deo achieve its goals in normal situations. Running Knock Off just for Espeon shows how over centralizing the strategy is. Others, like Thundurus, mainly beat Baton Pass when using Taunt themselves, which is a good example of over centralizing (the application of Taunt alone is mainly for BP, and doesn't really help against other matchups unless you give up either the utility of TWave, one of Prankster Thund's biggest niches, or coverage for NP or something).

Lastly I just wanted to say about the second bolded point, that's an example of over centralizing as well (not sure if someone brought this up already, my bad if someone did haha). Baton Pass is one playstyle, and those countermeasures to be more prepared for this one playstyle make you weaker to the vast majority of other playstyles. For example, my Greninja now needs to run Haze instead of a coverage move like Dark Pulse, making my team weaker to Aegislash, among other things. Of course, this is only one Pokemon, but Aegislash is found on all sorts of teams, be it stall or Offense. Running Haze forces my team to be weaker to one of the biggest threats in the game, in order to better combat a single strategy. Furthermore, I can't just replace Greninja on the team because I need it to fulfill its role as a fast offensive Water-type.

Idk how to conclude stuff so I'm just gonna stop typi
 
While making an attempt to ladder with Baton Pass on the suspect ladder, I saw many variants Landorus, Thundurus, Gengar, Aegislash, Deoxys-S (Taunt + Knock Off), Bisharp (Taunt), Mega Gyarados (Taunt), Mega Mawile, and Mega Gardevoir which beat Baton Pass fairly consistently.

I'd like to add that this list doesn't even cover all the pokemon that require little to no changes to break a BP team. Hippowdon, Azumarill (Belly Drum), Mega-Pinsir, Talonflame, Quagsire, Tentacruel, and Volcarona all are more than able to deal with a BP team. People need to stop letting these chains get out of hand, and not expect to kill off a finished chain.
 

Tokyo Tom

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I'd like to add that this list doesn't even cover all the pokemon that require little to no changes to break a BP team. Hippowdon, Azumarill (Belly Drum), Mega-Pinsir, Talonflame, Quagsire, Tentacruel, and Volcarona all are more than able to deal with a BP team. People need to stop letting these chains get out of hand, and not expect to kill off a finished chain.
To be fair, each of these Pokemon are broken down w/ the proper team support. Stuff like Quagsire can't stop BP unless it carries Haze, because Stored Power would still have an extremely high base power even partly through the chain.

'Mons like Talonflame and M-Pinsir are also taken out w/ proper team support. For example, you lead w/ Talon as he leads w/ Zapdos. You switch out as he BPs into Scolipede. If you go back to Talon he now has a sub up and can Protect for another Speed Boost before safely BPing into either Zapdos or Vaporeon. Even if you appear to have the advantage (so not this scenario), one wrong prediction could end up with your opponent getting a free turn to set up.

Finally, 'Mons like Volcarona and Tentacruel are rare sights in OU to begin with, Volca due to the high usage of its premier checks, like Talonflame, Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, Heatran, and Chansey, and Tentacruel due to its niche as a defensive spinner being reduced due to Defog and it's inability to reliably beat Aegislash, the most common ghost in OU. (Also Tentacruel is beaten by Espeon)
 
For example, you lead w/ Talon as he leads w/ Zapdos. You switch out as he BPs into Scolipede.
Why would I switch out on that? On a BP team, it's fair enough to say you shouldn't play with that high level of caution.

Edit: forgot the rest of my post.

From what I've seen, people are way too cautious against BP teams, which prey on players who try to play the game safe. It feels like the reason people lose to BP is because they take the team on how they would take on your average OU team. The pokemon themselves require few tweaks, but the players mindset needs more.
 
Why would I switch out on that? On a BP team, it's fair enough to say you shouldn't play with that high level of caution.

Edit: forgot the rest of my post.

From what I've seen, people are way too cautious against BP teams, which prey on players who try to play the game safe. It feels like the reason people lose to BP is because they take the team on how they would take on your average OU team. The pokemon themselves require few tweaks, but the players mindset needs more.
Better question, why would you stay in on it?
What on earth Will TFlame be doing to Zapdos?

EDIT: Wait, are you saying you'd stay in with Zapdos or TFlame?
The reason one would BP with Zapdos is to get the switch initiative.
 
Atmapalazzo said:
Why would I switch out on that? On a BP team, it's fair enough to say you shouldn't play with that high level of caution.

Edit: forgot the rest of my post.

From what I've seen, people are way too cautious against BP teams, which prey on players who try to play the game safe. It feels like the reason people lose to BP is because they take the team on how they would take on your average OU team. The pokemon themselves require few tweaks, but the players mindset needs more.
Unless you're running a bulky Talonflame set, Zapdos can outright kill Talonflame:

0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 318-374 (107 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So, it's not being "too cautious" to switch out, it's a matter of not loosing a precious check to something that would otherwise crush you. In addition, if it's turn 1, then it's a guessing game of whether he'll go for Scoli or maim/kill what may be your best and possibly only check to Scoli. If it's turn 1, you can't possibly predict your opponent's first move unless he has a well-known user name. That's the biggest issue with the full-chains: you only have a small number of turns to figure out your opponent's habits and switching patterns before it's too late, which almost completely removes the prediction aspect that helps make this game so interesting
 
I'm afraid I'm popping into this thread for a request. I hope it's kosher to ask the question here, since I feel it's relevant to the discussion: Does anyone have a replay of(at a reasonably high level) Prankster Taunt vs Baton Pass? I know that on paper Espeon beats it, I'm just somewhat interested in exactly how it's outplayed, since the Taunt user could come in at almost any moment and Taunt before the current pokemon can Baton Pass to Espeon. Though there is the fact that after a few rounds it becomes too late for Taunt to do much of anything. But I'd still be very grateful if someone could link me that replay!
 
I'm afraid I'm popping into this thread for a request. I hope it's kosher to ask the question here, since I feel it's relevant to the discussion: Does anyone have a replay of(at a reasonably high level) Prankster Taunt vs Baton Pass? I know that on paper Espeon beats it, I'm just somewhat interested in exactly how it's outplayed, since the Taunt user could come in at almost any moment and Taunt before the current pokemon can Baton Pass to Espeon. Though there is the fact that after a few rounds it becomes too late for Taunt to do much of anything. But I'd still be very grateful if someone could link me that replay!
dEnIssSs vs Tehy with sabeleye: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-107473514
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-101637640 taunt thunderus
 

Imma Fly

Who needs wings when you have Rokushiki?
Throwing in my two cents on BP:

Apart from from the issue of having very few turns to "learn" how your baton passing opponent's habits and switching patterns, there is another issue with baton pass that I find rather disturbing.

Barring the unbeatable nature of hax/crits in a game where luck plays an important role in deciding the winner, when going against bp teams, the matchup is effectively the factor that decides who wins. Unless your team really has something that runs something that is a natural bane for baton pass teams, (eg. T-wave/ Taunt Thundurus/ Sableye being prime examples), it is usually an uphill battle for the non-baton passer. Sure, you could run other soft checks as well for baton pass such as Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir and so on but just one mistake, like a mispredict, or falling for a double switch, is going to give your opponent a big advantage, and unless you can really read your opponent's mind like a book, things have tend to get wrapped up more often that not in the favor of the baton passer.

Yes, Haze users can also be run as well, but unless you are going to go funky and use stuff like Haze Murkrow, 252HP 252 SDEF+ Unaware Quagsire, Haze Greninja etc., one is not exactly going to have much success in stopping baton pass chains as one would hope.

Having said all this, yes, one can undoubtedly beat baton pass by running stuff meant to stop it, but it is just going to mean that the team becomes one that "can handle baton pass well but fares weaker against other playstyles" due to the opportunity cost of running such countermeasures. Even if stuff such as Thundurus and Sableye can be run on teams easily, not all teams are meant to have such pokes inside in order to function optimally, and the need to forcefully insert such pokes in order to prevent being rolled over by baton pass is really a case of limiting teambuilding.
 

Knight of Cydonia

I COULD BE BANNED!
I'll start by saying to the people that don't want baton pass reduced in potency - why do you really care, baton pass is hardly the way the game is supposed to be played. Its completely different from every other play style in that basic plays against it like switching in a counter to that particular pokemon or making a double switch just don't work vs baton pass. Why preserve something that takes so much away from the game.

In general there are few true counters for baton pass and some of them are useless/sub optimal against a standard offensive team (haze greninja etc). Unlike against a standard team where you can switch in a counter to the pokemon that is out at that particular moment, this doesn't accomplish anything against baton pass unless it is prankster taunt / very powerful priority and they lack a sub. If you lack either of these, unless you can beat the whole baton pass team with that pokemon, it can simply baton pass out to something that beats your counter and continue the chain and you have gained next to nothing. You can't double switch predicting this either due to baton pass mechanics leaving no risk for the bp user. So yes, your answer to baton pass has to either be able to eliminate a particular pokemon on the chain before it can bp out, or be able to beat the whole team. This is why baton pass is uncompetitive, the outcome of the battle is almost entirely left to team match up, if you don't have a counter there really is no room to outplay the baton pass user.

On the suspect ladder baton pass is definitely less effective since people have altered their teams. Yes you can beat it if you pack a counter, but this is pure centralization and generally makes your team worse against any other type of playstyle (taunt/roar mega gyara is another example). Its hardly reasonable to force every team to run taunt thundurus. This is the only real way to beat it since you can't outplay baton pass in any traditional sense.

On an unrelated note deo sharp is definitely harder to use this round, a lot more taunt users (thundurus, gengar etc) and generally people know how to beat it now that the metagame is settled. Sitting at a lousy 72 gxe compared to ~85s in previous rounds so may not have the time needed for 2700 coil. Just thought this was an interesting side effect of people preparing for baton pass. If I do make reqs either option 2 or 3 will suit me fine.
 
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