XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Just so I understand this clearly, you want people to stop discussing because you are done discussing? If that is the case, I honestly see no point of you even coming to this thread if you had decided that you were done. As for the Ubers discussion, it was off-topic, but nobody told you to continue reading because, once again, you quite clearly were done here before, so why you bother to return is, once again, beyond my understanding.

I come back on the off chance one of those intelligent people I talked about has something new to bring up, or someone who has not been here since round 1 has a question I can answer, hopefully leading to a more informed vote for them. I can tolerate reviewing old information, as long as it's on topic and intelligent. You'll notice how little I posted on this thread because there was very little I could say that somebody else hadn't already said, but in this specific example, I could draw back in the focus, which is what I will do now.

Baton Pass itself is not a threat on the ladder. People are so over prepared for it that it is very difficult to ladder with it, which is a good thing. The bad thing is that when someone does switch to a regular team, they have an advantage over the people who have over prepared for BP, but they'll almost always lose to the random good BP abuser who has made it high enough. This rock-paper-scissors scenario is unacceptable and has to be removed.

How to do that, I don't really care. I'm going to favor option 3 because I feel the tipping point for how bad players can beat good ones is the guaranteed boosts of scolipede and the immunity to most realistic counters in Espeon. Without them, a well balanced team can win if the player behind is smart, but with them, even a team of 3 can be impossible to stop with certain, otherwise good teams. I'd obviously rather option 2 over option 1 though.

 

[DestinyGallade]

While everything you and the person you quoted from a previous BP topic said is true, I have to say that you're disregarding the one main argument: while BP teams may be the perfect teams competitive-wise, they're also incredibly unfun to play against. To some, competitive anything is playing to win, but to the majority (at least I hope), and to myself, competitive gaming is both playing to win and having fun while doing it. Having a team that's perfect with the minimal amount of flaws might be perfection competitively, but do you really think anybody would want to go to a live Pokemon tournament and watch as 2 Baton pass users stall it out until one makes a mistake? Tiers are indicative of this "fun" architect: Kangaskhan may be an almost flawless pokemon if used right, but let's be honest, how fun is it to play against without using another almost "flawless" Pokemon? Let's say you're running a team consisting of mostly UU or OU pokemon, and you're faced with pokemon that are considered Uber tier, such as Blaziken, Mega Kangaskhan, Electric Arceus, and Destiny Bond Gengar. How much fun are you going to have battling against such an immovable object? You may be able to counter it with smart plays or pokemon that can successfully hamper it, such as Will-o-Wisp Prankster, but what if they know about this strategy and switch out, or what if you aren't ready for such a threat? Things become unfun, as you know you're going to lose.

My vote is going to 3, solely because there isn't an option to just stick BP plays in Uber, or any kind of thing like that. That actually kinda surprises me, what with the Tier lists just being released; why not have a middle ground choice where you lock the set-up to a certain tier?

almost every team you play us unfun to play with if you lose (unless it was real close or intense) competitive sportsmen and women play to win, not for fun. I'm not saying pokemon shouldn't be about fun, but if you lose and are mad, tough shit

 

[jbtc10]

You know what the truly funny thing about full BP teams is though? It really is the only team archetype which literally doesn't give a shit about any of the opponents pokemon regardless of their stats or typing unless they are virtually designed to be a nuisance for BP. Even as a person who doesn't really mind BP, I have to admit that or I'd be lying. Since a nerf to BP is most likely on the horizon, I decided to test the strategy in Ubers to see if it would be any good there, and you know what the scary thing is? It even requires specific counters there. If even Ubers requires specific counters to overcome it, I think that does kind of put the nail in the coffin for it in OU in that most people will agree it needs a nerf for being too much to handle for teams that don't have a pretty specific answer (which is why things like Kanga got banned too).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127921300
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127928795
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127931189
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127930013

Let's face it; if I'm able to quite effortlessly sweep unprepared Ubers teams with something as easy and formulaic as this, that truly says something about it that can't be denied. Even experienced players using a normal OU team in Ubers can find it very challenging to beat even inexperienced players using an Ubers team, but with BP that simply isn't the case because after a boost or two, it literally doesn't matter if the pokemon in front of you is Arceus or Magikarp.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

You know what the truly funny thing about full BP teams is though? It really is the only team archetype which literally doesn't give a shit about any of the opponents pokemon regardless of their stats or typing unless they are virtually designed to be a nuisance for BP. Even as a person who doesn't really mind BP, I have to admit that or I'd be lying. Since a nerf to BP is most likely on the horizon, I decided to test the strategy in Ubers to see if it would be any good there, and you know what the scary thing is? It even requires specific counters there. If even Ubers requires specific counters to overcome it, I think that does kind of put the nail in the coffin for it in OU in that most people will agree it needs a nerf for being too much to handle for teams that don't have a pretty specific answer (which is why things like Kanga got banned too).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127921300
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127928795
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127931189
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127930013

Let's face it; if I'm able to quite effortlessly sweep unprepared Ubers teams with something as easy and formulaic as this, that truly says something about it that can't be denied. Even experienced players using a normal OU team in Ubers can find it very challenging to beat even inexperienced players using an Ubers team, but with BP that simply isn't the case because after a boost or two, it literally doesn't matter if the pokemon in front of you is Arceus or Magikarp.

What happens after the boost isn't exactly relevant. The same thing can be said about every good set up sweeper: they are meant to win the match if they get enough boosts. The point is whether you can stop the BP team from getting these boosts in the first place.

 

[Baharoth]

You know what the truly funny thing about full BP teams is though? It really is the only team archetype which literally doesn't give a shit about any of the opponents pokemon regardless of their stats or typing unless they are virtually designed to be a nuisance for BP. Even as a person who doesn't really mind BP, I have to admit that or I'd be lying. Since a nerf to BP is most likely on the horizon, I decided to test the strategy in Ubers to see if it would be any good there, and you know what the scary thing is? It even requires specific counters there. If even Ubers requires specific counters to overcome it, I think that does kind of put the nail in the coffin for it in OU in that most people will agree it needs a nerf for being too much to handle for teams that don't have a pretty specific answer (which is why things like Kanga got banned too).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127921300
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127928795
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127931189
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-127930013

Let's face it; if I'm able to quite effortlessly sweep unprepared Ubers teams with something as easy and formulaic as this, that truly says something about it that can't be denied. Even experienced players using a normal OU team in Ubers can find it very challenging to beat even inexperienced players using an Ubers team, but with BP that simply isn't the case because after a boost or two, it literally doesn't matter if the pokemon in front of you is Arceus or Magikarp.

Could we please stop trying to prove something by beating total amateurs with BP? Those reps are just plain horrible as all 4 opponents had absolutely no clue of how to play against BP, wasting 4 turns on trying to taunt an Scolipede which, as everybody and his mother knows, carries Mental Herb and then even taunting themselves at the obvious Espeon pass, honestly.

We are way past this argument anyway. Even most of the pro ban people admit by now that bp isnt broken and can be dealt with if your willing to prepare for it. They want to ban it because they would have to prepare for it and simply dont want to do that.

 

[jbtc10]

Full BP might not be truly "broken" (many argue it is though), but it's OP. I was merely demonstrating that you pretty much must have a strong counter to BP on your team to stand a chance or have a team with a lot of things that can all pressure most members of the BP team, because even standard Ubers pokemon can't do shit to BP after a few boosts. The counter can't just be something like Haze Greninja either because it gets its shit pushed in by one or more things on the team, so the actual dedicated counters are fairly limited. I already stated I personally don't mind BP and wouldn't care too much if it stayed (mainly because I like alt-win things to be playable in games), I was just agreeing with the irrefutable argument that BP is very forceful in terms of how it makes you build teams if you don't want to lose to it nearly every time, and a lot of people don't think that's "healthy" hence it's probably going to get hit.

 

[Baharoth]

Yeah you need a strong counter, which is basicly every kind of strong offensive Pokemon, if possible with priority. Many stables are very effective against BP, Landorus, Thundurus, not just with taunt, NP + Sub beats it just as well, Manaphy with Raindance, Sub whisp Gengar with Taunt, Pinsir, Talonflame etc. Just put a Lum Berry on a set up sweeper and BP is screwed as their only way of handling set up sweepers is Smeargle. All of these things beat 99% of the BP Teams on the ladder alone. Things might not be as easy against Denisss as he knows BP better than anyone else on the planet but its not supposed to be easy against a top player. The only archetype that has to go out of his way to beat BP is stall and for an archetype that is designed to counter the common threats it shouldnt be too much to ask to adapt to a new threat.

 

[rob.]

I actually played a few games using baton pass and it was pretty boring and I wanted to punch myself in the face. I won most games and when I did lose it was from shit like thunderbolt crit and paralyzation at the same time. There were a few times where I was completely shut down by a Haze Mega Blastoise and a Taunt Mega Alakazam. I don't know anything about baton pass and for me to just copy and paste a team, hit search and auto win says a lot about baton pass but more so about the ladder. For instance, one game I achieved a ton of boost and my only option of attacking was a stored power Espeon. My opponent had a Bisharp. He was so mad and intimidated by the boost he rage-quitted; he could of easily won because psychic moves do not affect dark typed Pokemon. To bad he didn't take the time to think any of his moves through. But anyway baton pass chains are horrible and they've pushed the integrity of the ladder even lower than it was before.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I actually played a few games using baton pass and it was pretty boring and I wanted to punch myself in the face. I won most games and when I did lose it was from shit like thunderbolt crit and paralyzation at the same time. There were a few times where I was completely shut down by a Haze Mega Blastoise and a Taunt Mega Alakazam. I don't know anything about baton pass and for me to just copy and paste a team, hit search and auto win says a lot about baton pass but more so about the ladder. For instance, one game I achieved a ton of boost and my only option of attacking was a stored power Espeon. My opponent had a Bisharp. He was so mad and intimidated by the boost he rage-quitted; he could of easily won because psychic moves do not affect dark typed Pokemon. To bad he didn't take the time to think any of his moves through. But anyway baton pass chains are horrible and they've pushed the integrity of the ladder even lower than it was before.

You know, I don't think winning games against people who don't even know the type chart should count as an evidence for anything.

It's like Baharoth said, using BP to beat clueless people doesn't mean BP is broken.

 

[Vryheid]

Also, the checks to Talonflame have a lot of uses in OU and are not used just for the sole purpose of beating it, unlike gimmick moves and sets such as Haze Quagsire, Haze Greninja, and RestTalk Roar Mega Gyarados. Finally, unlike Baton Pass teams, checks and counters to Talonflame can fit into every single type of team, while balanced and stall teams often have zero responses to Baton Pass teams, because if they use some, it's almost sure that their efficiency against any other playstyle will drop.

You do not need gimmicks to beat a Baton Pass chain.

You are repeating the same argument I covered repeatedly in my last post. Did you watch any of the replays I posted? I don't think you appreciate how incredibly effective common threats like Deoxys S, Calm Mind Clefable, Landorus, Thundurus, Seismic Toss Chansey, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, mixed Aegislash, and even Breloom are at pressuring Baton Pass chains. Don't tell me these Pokemon are just "gimmicks" that stall or balance teams teams can't possibly make use of outside of stopping Baton Pass. I'd much rather slap one of them on a balance or stall team than be forced to use generic walls like Heatran or Rotom Wash just to deal with Talonflame.

BP chains are not some invincible defensive behemoth that can effortlessly shut down every offensive threat, despite what some posters here may want you to think. They are a patchwork of checks to a bunch of major threats in the metagame, depending heavily on defensive boosts and Ingrain healing to even begin to threaten an opposing team. Simply blasting away with hard hitting Specs users like Magnezone or Keldeo right from the start can be deadly for the BP user unless they predict around it perfectly, and that gives the other player an enormous advantage if they can predict just as well.

Even if you don't pack any dedicated wallbreaker or stallbreaker, you can still get past stall teams by stacking your team with sweepers with similar counters, use lures, set up hazards and take advantage of double switches to wear down checks and counters to your sweepers, use trappers, or even outstall the opponent (very hard but sometimes doable).

Well gee, it's almost like you can overcome disadvantageous matchups with proper prediction and skill. With that in mind, here's some advice to get past BP teams even without a dedicated counter:

1. Stack your team with sweepers with similar counters
2. Use lures
3. Set up hazards
4. Take advantage of double switches
5. Outstall the opponent

And yes, you CAN do all of these things against a BP chain- with a little intelligence and prediction. I'm tired of hearing absolutist counter arguments like "Stealth Rock don't work cause Espeon" every time this gets brought up. No BP player worth their salt is going to be mindlessly throwing in their Espeon to bounce back hazards from Tyranitar or Garchomp, and if for whatever reason they do you can always Pursuit trap them to death. Double switches can be an easy way to safely bring out a sweeper BP chains don't like switching into (Mega Mawile or Charizard comes to mind) and for baiting them into specific moves. Even outstalling is possible if you're willing to aggressively use Haze or Taunt, Haze's enormous 48 PP being a significant boon here.

Anyways, my experience on the ladder so far can be pretty much summed up like this:

What using a BP chain against good players feels like

What everyone else thinks BP players are like

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Can we stop comparing one "strong offensive pokemon" to an entire team? You're not battling one Pokemon like pinsir, it's an entire team setting up and able to cover it's weaknesses for the most part.

Yea, that's in no way an accurate depiction of what using a BP chain looks like. Replace the tight rope with a 4 foot wide sidewalk.

 

[rob.]

You know, I don't think winning games against people who don't even know the type chart should count as an evidence for anything.

It's like Baharoth said, using BP to beat clueless people doesn't mean BP is broken.

There are more instances that one just stood out the most, don't pick out one part of my post in an attempt to invalidate the fact that the chain is broken. That was more of a shot towards the general ladder population and how bad they are. Plus I've used this team against the top half of the suspect ladder with great success so that 'baton pass takes skill in higher ladder derp' argument goes out the window.

 

[Derpinator]

There are more instances that one just stood out the most, don't pick out one part of my post in an attempt to invalidate the fact that the chain is broken. I've used this team against the top half of the suspect ladder with great success

That is wonderful but the point being made is that replays, specifically the ones you shared, are utterly useless. They would have been a little less useless had they not been against horrible opponents but replays are generally useless in small quantities. If you want to prove a point, get every single replay, including when you lost, so that an actual comparison can be made. Right now, your replay posts are just saying, "Oh look, I won these couple of battles" and nothing else.

 

[rob.]

That is wonderful but the point being made is that replays, specifically the ones you shared, are utterly useless. They would have been a little less useless had they not been against horrible opponents but replays are generally useless in small quantities. If you want to prove a point, get every single replay, including when you lost, so that an actual comparison can be made. Right now, your replay posts are just saying, "Oh look, I won these couple of battles" and nothing else.

That example was a slight directed towards the general ladder populations skill level. It's funny that you're mentioning evidence as if I claimed to have stated any facts, not one time did I say any of my views were concrete. My post was just an informed opinion of baton pass teams in general.

 

[Derpinator]

That example was a slight directed towards the general ladder populations skill level. It's funny that you're mentioning evidence as if I claimed to have stated any facts, not one time did I say any of my views were concrete. My post was just an informed opinion of baton pass teams in general.

Not sure if I'm understanding what you are saying correctly. Are you saying that those replays were supposed to be representative of the mentioned population?

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah you need a strong counter, which is basicly every kind of strong offensive Pokemon, if possible with priority. Many stables are very effective against BP, Landorus, Thundurus, not just with taunt, NP + Sub beats it just as well, Manaphy with Raindance, Sub whisp Gengar with Taunt, Pinsir, Talonflame etc. Just put a Lum Berry on a set up sweeper and BP is screwed as their only way of handling set up sweepers is Smeargle. All of these things beat 99% of the BP Teams on the ladder alone. Things might not be as easy against Denisss as he knows BP better than anyone else on the planet but its not supposed to be easy against a top player. The only archetype that has to go out of his way to beat BP is stall and for an archetype that is designed to counter the common threats it shouldnt be too much to ask to adapt to a new threat.

Stall stands no chance against Baton Pass teams without using gimmick sets or moves, this has already been proven. And an entire playstyle getting 100% shut down by another one is reason enough to nerf Baton Pass teams on its own. Pokemon such as Kyurem-B and Genesect that made stall's life miserable were considered to be broken by some people because of this, and we are talking about Pokemon that are not 100% ways to beat stall, unlike Baton Pass teams, which basically invalidate an entire playstyle and not only. Every single balanced team without a set up sweeper, Taunt Gengar, or Taunt Thundurus, and a few others will most likely lose too. Why should teams that depend on defensive cores to cover offensive threats and therefore don't have a broad attacking core that can efficiently threaten Baton Pass teams suffer almost sure loses when playing against Baton Pass teams?

You do not need gimmicks to beat a Baton Pass chain.

You are repeating the same argument I covered repeatedly in my last post. Did you watch any of the replays I posted? I don't think you appreciate how incredibly effective common threats like Deoxys S, Calm Mind Clefable, Landorus, Thundurus, Seismic Toss Chansey, Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, mixed Aegislash, and even Breloom are at pressuring Baton Pass chains. Don't tell me these Pokemon are just "gimmicks" that stall or balance teams teams can't possibly make use of outside of stopping Baton Pass. I'd much rather slap one of them on a balance or stall team than be forced to use generic walls like Heatran or Rotom Wash just to deal with Talonflame.

BP chains are not some invincible defensive behemoth that can effortlessly shut down every offensive threat, despite what some posters here may want you to think. They are a patchwork of checks to a bunch of major threats in the metagame, depending heavily on defensive boosts and Ingrain healing to even begin to threaten an opposing team. Simply blasting away with hard hitting Specs users like Magnezone or Keldeo right from the start can be deadly for the BP user unless they predict around it perfectly, and that gives the other player an enormous advantage if they can predict just as well.

You do need to use gimmicks if you are playing stall or any kind of defensive team really. I don't care how many Pokemon can threaten Baton Pass teams, what i care about is that those Pokemon don't fit in defensive playstyles, and can even be impossible to fit on certain balanced teams. Also you are not helping your case by mentioning Pokemon that can't do shit against Baton Pass teams, such as Calm Mind Clefable (phazed by Vaporeon and beaten by Stored Power), S-Toss Chansey, which can't beat Baton Pass teams before they manage to get enough boosts to get past her, and mixed Aegislash, which gets Spored by Smeargle and then set up on by Sylveon.

Finally, i don't even get what you are talking about when you are mentioning hazards, lures, and outstalling the opponent as ways to deal with Baton Pass teams so i won't comment on this. Every single non gimmick way that there is to beat Baton Pass teams, defensive teams can't use it, making them always lose to Baton Pass teams, which is a good enough reason for me to nerf them.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

And what exactly is a gimmick? Because if stall is getting beaten so hard by a certain playstyle, I think it's valid for it to save a few moveslots to be able to beat that playstyle. "Gimmick" is a subjective word, and is being used here to label any kind of anti-bp moveset that goes outside the standard venutran/skarmbliss/quag team.

 

[Derpinator]

And what exactly is a gimmick? Because if stall is getting beaten so hard by a certain playstyle, I think it's valid for it to save a few moveslots to be able to beat that playstyle. "Gimmick" is a subjective word, and is being used here to label any kind of anti-bp moveset that goes outside the standard venutran/skarmbliss/quag team.

I like how you specified that a play style, as in one team of 5 Pokemon+1, beats them so they should readjust, sacrificing moves necessary to beat other playstyles just to give them a chance to beat this 5+1 "play style."

 

[alexwolf]

And what exactly is a gimmick? Because if stall is getting beaten so hard by a certain playstyle, I think it's valid for it to save a few moveslots to be able to beat that playstyle. "Gimmick" is a subjective word, and is being used here to label any kind of anti-bp moveset that goes outside the standard venutran/skarmbliss/quag team.

Gimmick is something that is not viable or is outclassed outside of beating a specific Pokemon or strategy, and therefore is an inferior option unless facing said Pokemon or strategy.

 

[Red Cat]

Gimmick is something that is not viable or is outclassed outside of beating a specific Pokemon or strategy, and therefore is an inferior option unless facing said Pokemon or strategy.

How is changing one moveslot to beat BP different than something like Latios using HP Fighting to beat Bisharp? That moveslot may indeed be inferior against most opponents, but switching one move to beat a specific threat is nothing new. Just because one move on a Pokemon isn't ideal against most threats doesn't mean the entire set is garbage or unviable. You are just choosing to prioritize beating one set of threats over another set of threats.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

How is changing one moveslot to beat BP different than something like Latios using HP Fighting to beat Bisharp? That moveslot may indeed be inferior against most opponents, but switching one move to beat a specific threat is nothing new. Just because one move on a Pokemon isn't ideal against most threats doesn't mean the entire set is garbage or unviable. You are just choosing to prioritize beating one set of threats over another set of threats.

HP fighting can be used among other mons, the gimmicks stopping BP can't be used in the same context. Where else would you see some of these things? I'm not saying all these "gimmicks" are bad in all instances but some are just stupid to carry outside of stopping BP.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

HP fighting can be used among other mons, the gimmicks stopping BP can't be used in the same context. Where else would you see some of these things? I'm not saying all these "gimmicks" are bad in all instances but some are just stupid to carry outside of stopping BP.

Besides bisharp and ttar a better move can be used in almost every situation by latios
Also similar to ttar using icebeam just for landos, gliscor, and garchomp, its only hitting those few pokes, but its generally considered the best move cause it takes out major threats.
By carrying one move you can take out a major threat in baton pass, I don't see a problem.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Besides bisharp and ttar a better move can be used in almost every situation by latios
Also similar to ttar using icebeam just for landos, gliscor, and garchomp, its only hitting those few pokes, but its generally considered the best move cause it takes out major threats.
By carrying one move you can take out a major threat in baton pass, I don't see a problem.

Right and those three mons are separate pokemon andfar more xcommon than a team of 6 pokemon in the BP chain.

I repeat, stop comparing this team of six to one Pokemon.

 

[Rajikaru]

By carrying one move you can take out a major threat in baton pass, I don't see a problem.

Except there are very few moves that actually counter BP teams, and very few pokemon can actually make use of them to the point of being worth giving up a moveslot. Ice Beam gives Ttar extra coverage along with defeating 3 specific OU threats, whereas only Hyper Voice on Mega Gardevoir or Pixilate Sylveon comes to mind when you think of actually viable pokemon with good counters to BP.

 

[Valmanway]

Besides bisharp and ttar a better move can be used in almost every situation by latios
Also similar to ttar using icebeam just for landos, gliscor, and garchomp, its only hitting those few pokes, but its generally considered the best move cause it takes out major threats.
By carrying one move you can take out a major threat in baton pass, I don't see a problem.

The problem is changing a move to take on Baton Pass teams, which can reduce your chances of beating non-Baton Pass teams, and this is where the problem lies when teambuilding.