XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

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Didn't know people carried that on Latios now...

On a more serious note, essentially what Moose just said. You can safely compare BP with one Pokemon in some situations but countering isn't one at all, as has been addressed already. It seems that when one dumb argument is addressed, it dies down for a page or two and then shows up again, completely ignoring everything that has already been said. Right now, literally none of the points against BP are being refuted, people just use them to segue into a different point and we end up going in circles.

As for the comparison, I'd like to know how the surefire counters to BP work against other play styles.
 
Derpinator said:
On a more serious note, essentially what Moose just said. You can safely compare BP with one Pokemon in some situations but countering isn't one at all, as has been addressed already. It seems that when one dumb argument is addressed, it dies down for a page or two and then shows up again, completely ignoring everything that has already been said. Right now, literally none of the points against BP are being refuted, people just use them to segue into a different point and we end up going in circles.
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I think when people run out of comebacks in an argument, they just repeat themselves, hoping the argument goes in their favor that time around.
 
Changing game mechanics is out of the question. The only options that are on the board are the ones stated in the OP. Please keep the discussion focused on those three options. Thank you.

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This is my last post here and I do hope that the moderator(I'm not mentioning name) who hates BatonPass can accept criticism and other opinion rather than deleting my posts that talk in favor of Option 1. As stated in the rules "You're required to make civil posts and accept criticism from those who disagree with you;" .

I accept and respect any criticism that disagree with me and hope the same too if someone has different opinion.

Batonpass has been used by various players and is currently considered by some as overpowered or broken. Well lets talk about statistics rather than opinions. How many Batonpass players made it to the top 10 on OU Ladder? It's only 2. If we were to check top 50? It's only 2. Ok lets check top 100? Majority of the players high ranked use stall and offense where as few use Batonpass. Some could say BP isn"t fun to play against but what did most BP players achieve? Was everyone prepared for BP on OU Ladder(not suspect)? The answer is no. But yet very few are at the top of ladder using it. I hope this is put in consideration as it gives a better picture of the team. Thankyou for reading this and have a good day.
 
Honestly, I doubt that said mod cares enough about you or anyone to specifically target your posts or their posts for deletion. I'm in support of option 2 yet I've had probably close to if not more than 10 posts deleted here, so I don't think they care what you are supporting unless you want to make the argument that they are die-hard option 3 fans that'll abuse their power to hide counterarguments. Then again, option 3 comparatively has been less discussed, so I doubt that is the case. So, it'd be great if nobody here played the victim and tried to get sympathy because I'm 100% sure that a) nobody cares and b) someone got more posts deleted than you. Obviously b) doesn't apply to the person who got the most deleted but you get my point.

I'm curious to know how we arrived at those statistics. Are we making the assumption that everyone player in the top x has posted or shared what they used? Or are we assuming that if we didn't see it, it didn't happen? Or that the one team we see people use is the team they used throughout?

Regardless, I'm amazed we are back to the, "nobody is using it so who cares" argument. Actually, no, I'm not amazed whatsoever. Partially because that has become a trend and partially because that post is a "last post" so I'd assume that you are just summing up your thoughts, disregarding what has already been said (and left unanswered).
 
Derpinator said:
Didn't know people carried that on Latios now...

On a more serious note, essentially what Moose just said. You can safely compare BP with one Pokemon in some situations but countering isn't one at all, as has been addressed already. It seems that when one dumb argument is addressed, it dies down for a page or two and then shows up again, completely ignoring everything that has already been said. Right now, literally none of the points against BP are being refuted, people just use them to segue into a different point and we end up going in circles.

As for the comparison, I'd like to know how the surefire counters to BP work against other play styles.
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Taunt thunderus great for beating stall
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up wrocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon
Breloom does great vs other styles
Mega Pinsir incredible poke
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak
Ditto great against offense
Cloyster can be a great sweeper
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams.

to name a few

Really the proban side is rehashing the same arguments more than anything: Baton pass is evil, its uncounterable, its for noobs, it counters are niche. Then when the antiban side says anything you just keep stating this over and over.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
all i'm seeing in this thread is derpinator k


Taunt thunderus great for beating stall
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up wrocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon
Breloom does great vs other styles
Mega Pinsir incredible poke
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak
Ditto great against offense
Cloyster can be a great sweeper
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams.

to name a few

Really the proban side is rehashing the same arguments more than anything: Baton pass is evil, its uncounterable, its for noobs, it counters are niche. Then when the antiban side says anything you just keep stating this over and over.
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Proban repeats their arguments while the other side reposts their opinion without refuting anything for the most part. In other words, we repeat why your point is invalid and you rarely bother to answer that without jumping to another topic.

As for the list, it has been responded to more than once so I'll just encourage you to look back for the responses instead of just c/ping the list repeatedly.
 
Derpinator said:
Proban repeats their arguments while the other side reposts their opinion without refuting anything for the most part. In other words, we repeat why your point is invalid and you rarely bother to answer that without jumping to another topic.
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and like i said you completley ignore all the pokemon i listed and how they do vs other playstyles
 
Why I told someone to go back and read and actually expected it to happen at this level of repetition, I don't know, but it, in hindsight, it was really stupid of me.

Your list summed up with previous arguments:
Prankster Taunt users: they can Taunt and prevent hazards and other stuff you can Taunt, bad for stall teams that don't like Taunt

Powerful Attackers: they can break walls

Set-up sweepers: they can sweep

Ditto: it can be an offensive threat

Shedinja: it can beat teams that can't touch it (example: rain offense because this is gen v)

Trace users: they can keep up in terms of Speed

I left out all the "it's just a great Pokemon" for obvious reasons, although that is a lot of your list. Looking at the list, we can see how many generalizations you are trying to inflate and call an argument.

I would also bring up how many teams can use the Pokemon you mentioned but then you'd probably say "oh look, I said you'd call it niche" and believe that to be a counterargument. After that, you'd probably proceed to ask why people couldn't prepare for BP as they would other playstyles. After being told that BP isn't a playstyle and just one team, you'd probably proceed to mention small team changes that you claim are viable but cannot explain how. Eventually, we'd end up back to list with you expecting an answer to the list, then crying about us saying the same thing and then we start all over again. Somewhere down the road, some idiot will come and post saying something like, "oh, so you guys just don't like it" or, "you guys just don't want to prepare for it" while referencing BP's less than impressive performance on the Suspect Ladder. Then, another idiot may hop on board and ask why the Suspect Ladder is used if it isn't representative.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
Taunt thunderus great for beating stall
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up wrocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon
Breloom does great vs other styles
Mega Pinsir incredible poke
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak
Ditto great against offense
Cloyster can be a great sweeper
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams.

to name a few

Really the proban side is rehashing the same arguments more than anything: Baton pass is evil, its uncounterable, its for noobs, it counters are niche. Then when the antiban side says anything you just keep stating this over and over.
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Wanted to avoid the cancer of this thread but are you actually being serious about this list? Lets go through the mons you've listed as not only "counters" to BP but also good in the meta.
Taunt thunderus great for beating stall Yeah can't disagree with this, although using a slot for Taunt means you lose Focus Blast/Psychic, which can be crutial for Thund to do damage. Not only that, Thund cannot be brought in freely against BP, it cant get rid of boosts even if it taunts so mons like Sylveon can fuck it up with boosted Hyper Voices.
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up rocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker If using Specs, yes but that detracts from its primary use as a cleric.
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon Only Gardevoir of these two can beat BP, even then Soundproof Mr. Mime exists
Breloom does great vs other styles But not against BP.
Mega Pinsir incredible poke This is actually correct.
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot OK this thing is so useless its not even funny. Rain offense can beat it quite easily as well.
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak But can it beat Stored Power Espeon?
Ditto great against offense This doesnt counter BP. Sub blocks Transform.
Cloyster can be a great sweeper Not really, it struggles to beat half of the meta and cant do much to BP in general.
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team But it can't do Jack to BP, why did you even list this?
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams. Poorly made ones maybe.

I dont get what you were trying to point out with this list. That Pokemon who don't counter BP can be effective against the rest of the meta? That Pokemon that do counter BP have to give up a lot or are useless in every other scenario? Half of the pokemon you listed cannot do anything to BP, some of those arent even that viable in the first place. Countless times people have rebuked similar arguements to yours not only in this thread but the old one as well, your logic is so flawed its not funny.
 
Flamer said:
Breloom does great vs other styles But not against BP.
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak But can it beat Stored Power Espeon?
Ditto great against offense This doesnt counter BP. Sub blocks Transform.
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team But it can't do Jack to BP, why did you even list this?
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Just going to call this right now (assuming that they bother to argue instead of changing topics): Breloom is good because you spam Rock Tomb against lead Scolipede and force it to pass early or to Iron Defense without a sub. Mega Heracross is good because you can spam whatever multi-hit move by leading with it and breaking subs with Rock Blast/Pin Missile/Bullet Seed and some other move. Ditto is good because you send it out when they don't have a sub. DeoS is good because if they lead Scolipede and don't have max Speed, so that you can Psycho Boost and kill it even at +1.

Notice the amazing specificity.
 
Flamer said:
Wanted to avoid the cancer of this thread but are you actually being serious about this list? Lets go through the mons you've listed as not only "counters" to BP but also good in the meta.
Taunt thunderus great for beating stall Yeah can't disagree with this, although using a slot for Taunt means you lose Focus Blast/Psychic, which can be crutial for Thund to do damage. Not only that, Thund cannot be brought in freely against BP, it cant get rid of boosts even if it taunts so mons like Sylveon can fuck it up with boosted Hyper Voices.
taunt sabeleye also quite good in general for stopping deoxysD setting up rocks also good stallbreaker
Hyper voice sylveon great wallbreaker If using Specs, yes but that detracts from its primary use as a cleric.
Mega Gardevoir and Mega Zam also just both good pokemon Only Gardevoir of these two can beat BP, even then Soundproof Mr. Mime exists
Breloom does great vs other styles But not against BP.
Mega Pinsir incredible poke This is actually correct.
Shedninja beats rain offense a lot OK this thing is so useless its not even funny. Rain offense can beat it quite easily as well.
MegaHeracross another great pokemon that can sweep and wallbreak But can it beat Stored Power Espeon?
Ditto great against offense This doesnt counter BP. Sub blocks Transform.
Cloyster can be a great sweeper Not really, it struggles to beat half of the meta and cant do much to BP in general.
DeoxyS is another great pokemon that can cause a lot of problems for lots of team But it can't do Jack to BP, why did you even list this?
Whimisicott also a problem pokemon for lots of teams. Poorly made ones maybe.

I dont get what you were trying to point out with this list. That Pokemon who don't counter BP can be effective against the rest of the meta? That Pokemon that do counter BP have to give up a lot or are useless in every other scenario? Half of the pokemon you listed cannot do anything to BP, some of those arent even that viable in the first place. Countless times people have rebuked similar arguements to yours not only in this thread but the old one as well, your logic is so flawed its not funny.
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For thunderus: Welp if a pokemon could cover anything then it itself would prob be broken. Also you should lead with it or send it in vs something like vaporeon
Sylveon- Will-o-wisp roost ZardX takes away its role of being a sweeper, but doesn't make it any less good. Soundproof mime seems to be using less and less.
Zam traces the speed boosts and proceeds to hit with hard hitting moves.
Cloyster breaks subs and does big damage.
Whimisicott with prediction can come in on any set up sweeper and encore it.
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
For thunderus: Welp if a pokemon could cover anything then it itself would prob be broken. Also you should lead with it or send it in vs something like vaporeon
Sylveon- Will-o-wisp roost ZardX takes away its role of being a sweeper, but doesn't make it any less good. Soundproof mime seems to be using less and less.
Zam traces the speed boosts and proceeds to hit with hard hitting moves.
Cloyster breaks subs and does big damage.
Whimisicott with prediction can come in on any set up sweeper and encore it.
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This has to be the definition of generalization. Lead with Thundurus or send it in against something that can't counter it. Just because this one CharX set that isn't even relevant prevents Syleveon from being a sweeper doesn't mean that it isn't good. Then again, you guys never said that was CharX countered it so my counterargument isn't even responding to your argument. MegaZam traces your Speed Boost and then uses its attacks to attack. Cloyster breaks Subs with multi-hit moves and deals damage. Whimsicott comes in and uses Prankster to Encore while the opponent sits there and does nothing. Is this an argument or something?
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
For thunderus: Welp if a pokemon could cover anything then it itself would prob be broken. Also you should lead with it or send it in vs something like vaporeon
Sylveon- Will-o-wisp roost ZardX takes away its role of being a sweeper, but doesn't make it any less good. Soundproof mime seems to be using less and less.
Zam traces the speed boosts and proceeds to hit with hard hitting moves.
Cloyster breaks subs and does big damage.
Whimisicott with prediction can come in on any set up sweeper and encore it.
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If you're gonna try to list counters, at least check 2 things; the poke actually beats baton pass a reasonable amount of the time, and doesn't suck.

Cloyster for instance, is ranked D! The fact you called it good says a lot about your knowledge of the meta.
 
I literally cannot fathom how anybody could support the antiban argument unless they are scrubs or legitimately stupid; BP is stupidly overcentralizing and overpowered because of its ability to autowin unless you counter-team BP users. Have any of you antiban supporters ever played Gen V? Because that's what the meta will look like if we do nothing, except way worse because BP doesn't make a shit ton of niche Pokemon viable.
 
Derpinator said:
Just going to call this right now (assuming that they bother to argue instead of changing topics): Breloom is good because you spam Rock Tomb against lead Scolipede and force it to pass early or to Iron Defense without a sub. Mega Heracross is good because you can spam whatever multi-hit move by leading with it and breaking subs with Rock Blast/Pin Missile/Bullet Seed and some other move. Ditto is good because you send it out when they don't have a sub. DeoS is good because if they lead Scolipede and don't have max Speed, so that you can Psycho Boost and kill it even at +1.

Notice the amazing specificity.
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I was more referring to later than turn 5 of the match. Also BP can change its lead to deal with whatever threatens Scolipede, its not always going to be scolipede that leads the chain.
 
Flamer said:
I was more referring to later than turn 5 of the match. Also BP can change its lead to deal with whatever threatens Scolipede, its not always going to be scolipede that leads the chain.
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My point exactly. The quoted part of the list doesn't comprise of counters to BP, just Pokemon that can be annoying if they are put in a specific situation under the assumption that the BP player is borderline stupid.
 
Karxrida said:
I literally cannot fathom how anybody could support the antiban argument unless they are scrubs or legitimately stupid; BP is stupidly overcentralizing and overpowered because of it's ability to autowin unless you counter-team BP users. Have any of you antiban supporters ever played Gen V? Because that's what the meta will look like if we do nothing, except way worse because BP doesn't make a shit ton of niche Pokemon viable.
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Go read the long posts by Vryheid, Ninja Charizard, and I explaining in detail why we are against nerfing Baton Pass before you cast all of the anti-nerf people as stupid. I've played Gen V, and I don't see how one can compare the weather war meta to literally one guy's team which has viable stops as clearly shown on the suspect ladder.
 
No one doubts whether or not you can stop baton pass itself, we know there are ways to completely stop the strategy. So listing out counters isn't a means to a solution @everyone above @Lil YoshiXD . The problem is, unlike other matchups and battles, there is no way to maneuver around baton pass without a counter. There is no analogous scenario where if I am facing an opponent, I can not attempt to win by any means under my control (seriously relying on crits?). So far I have seen many people present scenarios that are difficult, I still have a chance of victory no matter how slight, but baton pass chains are unwinnable. In my previous post I described how baton pass creates these kinds of unwinnable / non-maneuverable situations (particularly the baton pass vs switch priority problem).

Basically, is it fair to win with baton pass chains because pre-battle, you decided not to prepare for it? Sure, it is your fault that you loss. But I don't believe it is fair for wins should be entirely decided on pre-battle decisions. Ultimately, the line of decisions made during a battle (run-time) should decide the winner, with bad matchups / low chances of winning are scenarios where the correct line(s) of decisions are harder to identify. Full baton pass chains remove that element from the game, and that's why they don't deserve to be in a competitive metagame.
 
Red Cat said:
Go read the long posts by Vryheid, Ninja Charizard, and I explaining in detail why we are against nerfing Baton Pass before you cast all of the anti-nerf people as stupid. I've played Gen V, and I don't see how one can compare the weather war meta to literally one guy's team which has viable stops as clearly shown on the suspect ladder.
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Would you be so kind as to reiterate your arguments and possible counterarguments? Seeing how asking for someone to read earlier didn't go well, I think it may just be better to stick with this degree of repetition. One thing I'd like to request is that you specify how what you say adequately refutes what has already been said in response rather than repeating your points literally, refusing to acknowledge the other side's arguments in its entirety.

Doughboy said:
No one doubts whether or not you can stop baton pass itself, we know there are ways to completely stop the strategy. So listing out counters isn't a means to a solution @everyone above. The problem is, unlike other matchups and battles, there is no way to maneuver around baton pass without a counter. There is no analogous scenario where if I am facing an opponent, I can not attempt to win by any means under my control (seriously relying on crits?). So far I have seen many people present scenarios that are difficult, I still have a chance of victory no matter how slight, but baton pass chains are unwinnable. In my previous post I described how baton pass creates these kinds of unwinnable / non-maneuverable situations (particularly the baton pass vs switch priority problem).

Basically, is it fair to win with baton pass chains because pre-battle, you decided not to prepare for it? Sure, it is your fault that you loss. But I don't believe it is fair for wins should be entirely decided on pre-battle decisions. Ultimately, the line of decisions made during a battle (run-time) should decide the winner, with bad matchups / low chances of winning are scenarios where the correct line(s) of decisions are harder to identify. Full baton pass chains remove that element from the game, and that's why they don't deserve to be in a competitive metagame.
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Probable response: So you just don't want to prepare for it.
 
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Flamer said:
I was more referring to later than turn 5 of the match. Also BP can change its lead to deal with whatever threatens Scolipede, its not always going to be scolipede that leads the chain.
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Yeah, good point. It seems obvious but a lot of the anti ban arguments I've seen assume that Scoli leads 100% of the time. "Just lead with Pinsir and Scoli can't set up" is kind of a moot point when leading with Zapdos is always possible.
 
Red Cat said:
Go read the long posts by Vryheid, Ninja Charizard, and I explaining in detail why we are against nerfing Baton Pass before you cast all of the anti-nerf people as stupid. I've played Gen V, and I don't see how one can compare the weather war meta to literally one guy's team which has viable stops as clearly shown on the suspect ladder.
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I did. I read the entire thread before making my post, especially what you guys said. It only reinforces my statement.
 
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