Would you like me to get the calcs for Lucario for you?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Lucario can easily set up on stuff like Bisharp, Scarf Tyranitar, forced switches like Mega ttar, Ferrothorn, Heatran, unboosted Excadrill, Latios at -2, Scarf Exca locked into Iron Head or Rock Slide, not to mention the fact that it can run Ice Punch to kill Landorus-T and Gliscor if it chooses too. I mean yeah it's definitely not the best Pokemon at all, but once it gets a boost up, it's hard to stop. I would say the thing that keeps it back, in my opinion, is how terribly unreliable Iron Tail is.
One very notable pokemon lucario can easily set up on is bisharp :o Even switching into it, you just get a free +1 and while its obviously not gonna be as devastating as +2, you can still do a GREAT deal of damage to the opposing team with a +1 adamant LO lucario.
Terrakion and Scarf Exca is a solid checks, i'll admit, and aegislash needs some bisharp pursuit support. Gliscor, however, (assuming subtoxic)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 244 HP / 32+ Def Gliscor: 304-359 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 32+ Def Gliscor: 242-286 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
Cant really beat it too well. Lucario can even run ice punch if it so pleases.
Admittedly, it's quite tough to set up lucario in theory, but that goes for a lot of successful pokemon. Mega Pinsir, for example, sets up on basically nothing, but you will see it still manage to get up an SD against offensive team sometimes. How is that? It's incredibly reliant on prediction, but hey, that's how offense plays: High risk high reward. Lucario is that kind of pokemon: If you can correctly predict that rotom-w to switch out because you force the opponent to keep it healthy (with the threat of talonflame or something) and SD there, then bam, there's your boost, and there's the destruction.
Also thundurus staying at enough health to take +2 lucario espeed is basically nonexistent anyway: LO recoil, rocks, sand, weak attacks, its not too hard to weaken it down to 90% lol
I"ll be honest, i don't really like these type of pokemon either, ones that rely on prediction to set up. but they can be pretty devastating when used right :I
^Lucario doesn't get Iron Head
(No I don't know why either)
(No I don't know why either)
Just a nitpick but you should pretty much always run Adamant on Luc or else you're going to miss out on a lot of E-Speed KOs, and there's nothing too notable that Jolly outspeeds because of the Pokemon below it, such as Excadrill, Heatran, and Mamo tend to not run +Spe natures.
Anyways, I don't understand why a Pokemon has to be able to set up on things to be good lol. Just look at Lucario last gen, there were still a lot of Pokemon that Lucario couldn't set up against, and it was still considered an incredibly dangerous sweeper despite that. Like Halcyon said, Luc has pretty much always depended on forcing switches or setting up on bulky Pokemon in order to grab a boost, but it managed to sweep teams just fine. Yes it may have gained more checks this generation, but it can still force a lot of switches. In all honesty, I'd say that Lucario does even more work against offensive teams this generation, because a lot of the Pokemon that would want to check Lucario, pretty much all of them die to a +2 E-Speed. It's one of the few sweepers that isn't fucked over by Thundurus, Talonflame, Azumarill, or Bisharp all at the same time.
But yeah I'm not dropping a Pokemon because you fail to realize how an offensive Pokemon isn't meant to set up directly on something that can OHKO it. Luc is one of those Pokemon that if you fuck up one time and give it a boost, there's a huge possibility that you could be in big trouble (unless you carry an Aegislash). It can't set up on a ton of offensive Pokemon, but like many other frail sweepers it's meant to grab boosts by forcing shit out. Lucario just doesn't come anywhere close to being comparable to many of the subpar sweepers that reside in B-, such as Volcarona who is stupidly easy to revenge kill this generation and wall if it's running a bulky set. Luc is powerful and can really fuck over offensive and balanced teams if played right.
Although it is mostly a subpar option, Lucario does get EQ to hit Aegislash with. Lucario should at least stay in B rank, as it can completely dismantle both balance and HO, and be a pain in the arse to stall at +2, and still be a large threat unboosted. It is extremely underrated this generation, and while there are sweepers that are faster and more powerful than Lucario, NO other sweepers can do what Lucario can.
I'd personally disagree with that :/
I'd run iron tail over eq purely because
1. You can trap aegislash wiht bisharp pursuit. It is definitely possible to just get rid of it entirely early game. The same does not hold true for pokemon that you miss out on with iron tail, which are:
2. Hitting slower pokemon that resist/can take STAB and espeed like Lando-T (non scarf and non max speed ofc), Gliscor, Clefable, Sylveon, Azu (not CB, Aqua jet will do a lot of damage), Amoong and Mega Venu, Togekiss, and other assorted less significant psychics and ghosts like Reuni and Dusclops.
You miss out on all that just to hit aegislash, which you can very efficiently handle with team support already. Sure, 75 acc sux, but using lucario requires balls anyway.
Oh, and HERE is a little fun lucario team that was used in ubers (and peaked #1) by mah good fwen. Ofc, the targets are a little different, but they too are destroyed by iron tail while close combat ad espeed won't do much. Just wanted to show that iron tail ain't total bs.
It is hard but not impossibly hard for Lucario to set up. In the hands of an experienced player, Luke can be a total monster when it gets to +2.
Lucario really shouldn't be dropping below B rank, and I mean B as in B+, B, and B-
I mean, come on, are you really going to be comparing Luke to Starmie, Smeargle, and Sharpedo? We really should focus more on comparing a Pokemon to other Pokemon in that rank, and try and make that more present in arguments and debates.
Compared to other Pokemon in that rank such as Conkeldurr or Chesnaught, Luke does fit in pretty well. On the other hand, if we compare it to Mega Aerodactyl and Volcarona, it is significantly better. Volcarona is plagued by a Stealth Rock weakness, frailty, and Mega Aerodactyl has a pretty useless ability, among other weaknesses (which I hope you guys know). Conkeldurr is a good and usable Pokemon, which is what Luke is as well. If you use Lucario well, then he really can do a lot, just like Conkeldurr and Chesnaught. He can pick off foes with Extremespeed, beat Fairies with Iron Tail, and just deal decent damage with Close Combat to the other team. It's not great, it has its flaws. But, Luke does have its strengths and should stay in B rank. It's not a great argument to say that setting up Luke is hard because every strong hit either KOs it or does 99% to it <insert calculations here> One good thing about setting up with Luke is that it does have a chance, unlike some other sweepers. It forces switches, and a good player can use that opportunity to get to +2, and demolish the other team.
It can be played well, it has flaws, it's solid B rank. Keep it there, imo.
P.S. Excuse the crappy post I was really tired when I wrote this lol
Lucario really shouldn't be dropping below B rank, and I mean B as in B+, B, and B-
I mean, come on, are you really going to be comparing Luke to Starmie, Smeargle, and Sharpedo? We really should focus more on comparing a Pokemon to other Pokemon in that rank, and try and make that more present in arguments and debates.
Compared to other Pokemon in that rank such as Conkeldurr or Chesnaught, Luke does fit in pretty well. On the other hand, if we compare it to Mega Aerodactyl and Volcarona, it is significantly better. Volcarona is plagued by a Stealth Rock weakness, frailty, and Mega Aerodactyl has a pretty useless ability, among other weaknesses (which I hope you guys know). Conkeldurr is a good and usable Pokemon, which is what Luke is as well. If you use Lucario well, then he really can do a lot, just like Conkeldurr and Chesnaught. He can pick off foes with Extremespeed, beat Fairies with Iron Tail, and just deal decent damage with Close Combat to the other team. It's not great, it has its flaws. But, Luke does have its strengths and should stay in B rank. It's not a great argument to say that setting up Luke is hard because every strong hit either KOs it or does 99% to it <insert calculations here> One good thing about setting up with Luke is that it does have a chance, unlike some other sweepers. It forces switches, and a good player can use that opportunity to get to +2, and demolish the other team.
It can be played well, it has flaws, it's solid B rank. Keep it there, imo.
P.S. Excuse the crappy post I was really tired when I wrote this lol
Lucario deserves B rank. The problem is has to run a set to make use of Extemespeed else he can be considered outclassed by Terrakion a fighting type. Specially offensive Lucario is an option, but then there are other special attackers that may outclass him.
In the past I've used Conkeldurr with elemental punches. He can counter and or OHKO and Tyranitar, Forretress, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, survive a hit and possibly OHKO Latios, hurt Gyarados and Azumarill and Talonflame switchins with Thunderpunch.... Guts makes him stronger to hurt Toxic stallers. I don't quite get the B ranking. What are the safe switchins aside from Clefable and Sylveon? B+ rank looked fine to me.
Mega Venusaur is ranked A+ and totally deserves it.
In the past I've used Conkeldurr with elemental punches. He can counter and or OHKO and Tyranitar, Forretress, Bisharp, Excadrill, Mega Scizor, survive a hit and possibly OHKO Latios, hurt Gyarados and Azumarill and Talonflame switchins with Thunderpunch.... Guts makes him stronger to hurt Toxic stallers. I don't quite get the B ranking. What are the safe switchins aside from Clefable and Sylveon? B+ rank looked fine to me.
Mega Venusaur is ranked A+ and totally deserves it.
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Conkeldurr is pretty much walled by like any physical wall, especially Venusaur/Skarmory/Fairies in general and its pretty rare to see Conk run all those elemental punches because if it doesn't run stuff like knock off its utterly walled by ghosts (Aegislash). Theres also this thing called birdspam that is scary effective in this metagame and Conkeldurr isn't a big fan. I think it's fine in B because it's pretty bulky, doesn't give a damn about status and priority fighting moves are quite awesome (but Breloom does this better).
For me it always has been Breloom vs Conkeldurr for a slot on my team. At one point Conkeldurr was A- and Breloom B, now it's flipped. I can think of a set with Knock Off, Drain Punch, Thunder punch, and Ice or Fire Punch for best coverage on Conk.
@Pixie Sylph
So B rank = shit? That's not what the description says. I think you're a hostile person if you're calling anything below B+ shit, that discriminates a lot of Pokemon that are far worse in the OU metagame.
And with the Popularity of stall I continue to ask why Amoonguss is still in RU and Hippowdown in UU.
B rank = not so great, but can be effective imo. Conk isn't a bad mon, cause it is bulky+has Drain Punch and a nice status absorber, but it's just not that great.
Monte Cristo nominated Kingdra for A- in the VR thread, but as someone who uses rain a lot, I have to disagree. This is mostly because it is utterly dependent on Rain support, which is a good fit for the definition of B "... but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential." Also, Valmanway absolutely nothing you've mentioned "outclasses" Kingdra. If I'm making a rain team, I would never consider using Latios over Kingdra if I'm looking for a rain sweeper, cause Latios doesn't have Swift Swim and water STAB ._. I also don't agree with "Keldeo, Greninja, and Manaphy are better special attackers," cause really, none of them are on the same level as Specs Kingdra in Rain. Keldeo has power, but it's not terribly fast and not particularly hard to revenge kill, though it is a good wall breaker. Greninja is frail, and while it has good coverage, who needs that just click Hydro Pump. Manaphy doesn't break stall when stall has Clefable, Chansey or Ferrothorn, and if I'm not mistaken most teams will have one or more of them; it's also not that fast. Swift Swim Kingdra is fast as balls and kind of bulky, which makes it really hard to revenge kill, and Specs Hydro Pump (or even Surf) hits hard as hell; it's going to OHKO any frail mon that doesn't resist (Garchomp is frail,) 2HKO any that does (even Azumarill,) and against stall it puts a lot of pressure on them to keep Chansey/[bulky grass] alive. It's definitely not as good a wall breaker as Keldeo but Keldeo is no where near as good a sweeper.
But yeah, Kingdra is dependent on rain to function and only fits one on one specific kind of team, while most stuff in A is more versatile which is why I think B is fine.
I also have to disagree that people have really adapted to rain (or at the very least, consciously tried, cause Thundurus and Azumarill are good anyway.) It still chews up any offensive teams, which are really popular, and as for stall it puts a lot of pressure on them to keep one or two mons alive. Plus there's ways Rain teams can get around stuff that troubles it, e.g. Siesmitoad for Thundurus and Ferrothorn, Amoonguss/Ferrothorn for Azumarill, using Scald on Kingdra because lol, etc. I don't think people are all that prepared for rain as a whole; perhaps the core of Deo-S+Politoed+Kingdra+Kabutops, which isn't all that good, but a lot of teams are going to struggle with a well-built rain team. It's a really good and sort of anti-meta archetype.
Monte Cristo nominated Kingdra for A- in the VR thread, but as someone who uses rain a lot, I have to disagree. This is mostly because it is utterly dependent on Rain support, which is a good fit for the definition of B "... but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential." Also, Valmanway absolutely nothing you've mentioned "outclasses" Kingdra. If I'm making a rain team, I would never consider using Latios over Kingdra if I'm looking for a rain sweeper, cause Latios doesn't have Swift Swim and water STAB ._. I also don't agree with "Keldeo, Greninja, and Manaphy are better special attackers," cause really, none of them are on the same level as Specs Kingdra in Rain. Keldeo has power, but it's not terribly fast and not particularly hard to revenge kill, though it is a good wall breaker. Greninja is frail, and while it has good coverage, who needs that just click Hydro Pump. Manaphy doesn't break stall when stall has Clefable, Chansey or Ferrothorn, and if I'm not mistaken most teams will have one or more of them; it's also not that fast. Swift Swim Kingdra is fast as balls and kind of bulky, which makes it really hard to revenge kill, and Specs Hydro Pump (or even Surf) hits hard as hell; it's going to OHKO any frail mon that doesn't resist (Garchomp is frail,) 2HKO any that does (even Azumarill,) and against stall it puts a lot of pressure on them to keep Chansey/[bulky grass] alive. It's definitely not as good a wall breaker as Keldeo but Keldeo is no where near as good a sweeper.
But yeah, Kingdra is dependent on rain to function and only fits one on one specific kind of team, while most stuff in A is more versatile which is why I think B is fine.
I also have to disagree that people have really adapted to rain (or at the very least, consciously tried, cause Thundurus and Azumarill are good anyway.) It still chews up any offensive teams, which are really popular, and as for stall it puts a lot of pressure on them to keep one or two mons alive. Plus there's ways Rain teams can get around stuff that troubles it, e.g. Siesmitoad for Thundurus and Ferrothorn, Amoonguss/Ferrothorn for Azumarill, using Scald on Kingdra because lol, etc. I don't think people are all that prepared for rain as a whole; perhaps the core of Deo-S+Politoed+Kingdra+Kabutops, which isn't all that good, but a lot of teams are going to struggle with a well-built rain team. It's a really good and sort of anti-meta archetype.
I can appreciate this comment.
You can say the same about Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan, the former used by most people as a generic speed demon and the latter always used as a PuP sweeper even though she had an excellent Wish+Seismic Toss set. Just because the most common set of a Pokémon isn't its most optimal set, it doesn't mean that this Pokémon is not a powerhouse, just that most people use it wrong. As you said, Swords Dance, Bulk Up and support/stallbreaking sets are forces to be reckoned with.
And by the way Fire-Flying is a godlike typing when rocks aren't arount(admittely a big issue, but not something that can't be dealt with).
I didn't realise Staraptor outclassed Talonflame as a gale wings user. Seriously, priority brave bird is what makes Talonflame so scary. Very good revenge killer. Can also force switches fairly easily and get off a roost or u-turn. Staraptor doesn't get flare blitz either which is a really important move for Talonflame.
The only thing I'm saying is that Conk isn't as good as it was during the beginning days of OU. It dislikes bird spam, which is everywhere, easily walled by most physical attackers, and it's pretty much predictable.
Next xime you say something about people, try thinking about it.
You make many fine points, but you're comparison calc is flawed, as talonflame can afford to run adamant. The most accurate calc would look like this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 222-262 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, banded Talonflame does outdamage staraptor, while maintaining the advantage of bypassing speed completely. Talonflame's typing is really more of a double-edged sword the anything else, While at the same time STAB Flare Blitz cannot be understated, It's reliance on these two recoil moves combined with it's typing and rather shallow that keep talonflame from being too difficult to handle.
Talonflame should stay in A+ in my opinion. While it's most commonly and effectively used as a revenge killer, It can also run swords dance moderately well, but should best be left to others, as SDflame excels against more offensive teams, it struggles against more defensive teams due to it's lack of power. But it's stallbreaker set is capable of wrecking stall with taunt, roost, will-o-wisp, and brave bird. Talonflame isn't as One-Dimensional as most people think and although it requires significant support, The reward Talonflame gives for that support is enough to justify it Staying in A+.
(As a side note, 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 128-151 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, Not even Aegislash likes switching int staraptor.)
I have 4 points to make.
A) You are comparing their power. Talonflame has never been used for how hard it hits. Base 81 Attack is pathetic. However, it hits hard *enough*. Talonflame is used for one reason only: Gale Wings. The ability to revenge kill nearly anything, regardless of speed boosts or Choice Scarf. Talon's Brave Bird isn't a super strong attack, but it is the strongest priority attack in OU. Scarf Raptor is fast, but it isn't priority. Priority also means it is very difficult to revenge in return, should it be a sweeper set with SD/Bulk Up- no scarfer can tame the Talon.
B) Even with the power argument, the Raptor barely outhits Talonflame. How does this mean Raptor outdoes Talon? With Talon's priority, ability to set up, and more meaningful secondary STAB, it has tons over Staraptor. EDIT: Johnathon's calc is also to be considered. Adamant Talon (most of them) hits harder then Raptor anyway. So the power argument isn't so significant.
C) Movepool is only a problem if a pokemon cannot do as well as it could, and really needs a move it doesn't have to reach it's potential. Talonflame has everything it needs to do well- it can be Choiced, SD, even bulky boost and support sets. Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Roost, SD, Bulk Up, U-Turn, Tailwind, hell, even Taunt in some cases. A huge movepool is certainly better then a small one, but in this case I can't see it as a huge problem. Let's not forget, Staraptor's movepool isn't much to speak of either- Brave Bird, Double Edge, Close Combat, U-Turn, Quick Attack. That's it. Staraptor is, if anything, even worse then Talon in the movepool sector- it has exactly one type of set it can do, Wallbreaker, while Talon can do multiple.
D) Fire/Flying really isn't that bad. It has 6 resistances- to Fire, Bug, Grass, Fairy, Ground, and Fighting. Weaknesses always suck but in this case, I can't see it being a huge concern- only Rock is in any way crippling, both because of SR and Rock coverage being common on physical attackers. But not enough to invalidate the whole typing, in my opinion.
Basically, you argument is "Raptor hits marginally harder than Talonflame" (EDIT: Raptor doesn't hit harder, Adamant Talon does), "it's movepool sucks" and, as far as I can tell, nothing else. Perhaps I missed it, but you neglected to mention (or, if you did, failed to acknowledge the meaningfulness of) any of Talon's other perks- Priority, Setup, STAB. Gale Wings really is just that good. In this lurker's opinion, Talonflame Stays A+.
TL;DR: Priority, More Power, Can run multiple sets.
Apologies for any spelling errors- we all know the evil that is phones.
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Talonflame is amazing, that's no doubt. The only thing I hate is why are you people comparing Staraptor and Talonflame, they have two different roles.
Talonflame acts as a REVENGE KILLER, while Staraptor acts as a WALLBREAKER.
You shouldn't really argue about power, since Staraptor cleanly wins in terms of this. But the thing is, Talonflame wields the strongest priority in the standard meta atm, which goes first regardless of anything. While Staraptor has to worry about being outsped even if it has a Scarf. Talonflame isn't easily walled, since its would-be counters would be smashed with either Brave Bird/ Flare Blitz/ U-Turn/ or even the gimmicky Fling. Staraptor however, is walled by the one of the most dominant Pokemon in OU, named Aegislash.
I'm not saying that Staraptor is an inferior Talonflame, the thing is why are you comparing these two.
But still, Staraptor has the advantage of 2HKO/ OHKO'ing most of the meta, what's holding it back is its overreliance to recoil which most of the time kills itself, a disappointing speed tier, and a tendency to overkill some Pokemon which racks up extra residual damage. Once again, Staraptor hits ridiculously hard, but it can only take it so far.
Talonflame stays in A+, and I'll make a post about Staraptor rising to B.
Staraptor is often ignored by other Flying types in OU, most notably Talonflame and Pinsir, who have better Speed, better coverage, so why use this insted of them?
The answer is: raw power. This bird is literally a wrecking ball, easily muscling through most walls in the tier. It's hard to ignore that you need to waste a Pokemon just to let it kill itself with recoil, which happens most of the time. Those who resist Brave Bird, are smashed by Double Edge. A predicted switch-in? U-Turn away! Sadly, it's one dimensional. It's its only purpose, to wreck stuff then die. It's also walled by Aegislash, who is literally everywhere.
I think Staraptor deserves B Rank, the amount of Pokemon it wrecks into smithereens is unbelievable, but it can only take it so far.
#RaptorForB
I was comparing the 2 because the post I was replying to was comparing them. They serve different roles, and the Band set wouldn't be out of place in B. However, we aren't discussing Staraptor directly, but as a comparison (that Hclegend made, not me) with Talonflame.
Dude. You're going to embarrass yourself. Stop. Flying is resisted by steel, rock and electric. Band TF gets Thundyi from 50%. Terrak is neutral to fly. TTar is weak to Uturn. Steel, bar heatran, are weak to fire and all are slower.
Just remember the roles are different, damage is irrelevant here. Raptor is a wall breaker, Talonflame is a cleaner and revenge killer. Priority flying is nice for all the dragon dancers and scarfers (aka I can hit charizardx/gyara-m at any DD level, as well as scarf Garchomp/Terrak) as well as pokes like Deo-S that basically break the law of speed. Also outspeeding most relevant priority is nice, although I guess mamoswine's is the highest damaging in the relevant category that TF outspeeds.
Just remember the roles are different, damage is irrelevant here. Raptor is a wall breaker, Talonflame is a cleaner and revenge killer. Priority flying is nice for all the dragon dancers and scarfers (aka I can hit charizardx/gyara-m at any DD level, as well as scarf Garchomp/Terrak) as well as pokes like Deo-S that basically break the law of speed. Also outspeeding most relevant priority is nice, although I guess mamoswine's is the highest damaging in the relevant category that TF outspeeds.
Raptor can run adamant. Problem is, then it gets outsped by a ton, even if scarfed (most other scarfers will outrun), so most of the time it'll have to be Jolly- there's a lot more lost by Raptor running Adamant than Talonflame, which loses basically nothing by going Adamant. Priority is NOT overrated, especially in talon's case, as it's main STAB attack is priority. Priority allows one to revenge kill much more easily while being much harder to revenge kill in return... and even if it was overrated, you haven't provided anything that balances out Raptor's lack of it. It's a solid niche Talon has over Raptor.
Also... your original post was referring specifically to scarf raptor. All your calcs were done with it, and your argument was that Scarf raptor was a better revenge killer then Talonflame. Now you refer to the Band set- a much more relevant set, one must say, as it hits so hard. But then this comparison loses it's relevance, because now we're not comparing revenge killer vs. revenge killer, we're comparing revenge killer vs. a wallbreaker, which isn't a fitting comparison. Even if both use Flying type as their main attacking type, the roles are too dissimilar to be compared. Might as well compare Azumarill and Greninja. You also talk about Raptor being able to revenge kill and wallbreak at the same time, which is simply wrong. It's already been shown how Scarf raptor is outhit by talonflame, and cannot wallbreak and better then talonflame can (expecially as Talonflame could be a bulky set and have Taunt). Band is too slow to revenge kill. Raptor can do one, or the other. Not both. And only Band has any real merit.
Next: You undersell Flying-type. It has 3 things that resist it and nothing immune to it- no other type can boast anything better, though some can say the same. Most types are worse, either having things immune to them or having more things resist them.
To recap/redo my argument (because I suck at elaborating it the first time): Scarf Raptor is outperformed by Talonflame. It's (probably) weaker, isn't priority, and cannot revenge anything that has speed boosts/is scarfed. Band is good, but can't really be compared to Talon because Talon isn't a wallbreaker. They're both offensive Flying-types, but that isn't enough IMO to compare them. Talon has the benefit of more sets/versatility while being able to revenge kill with any set, not just one. Priority is a huge boost, especially as it's Talon's best STAB. Not only is that priority, but so is any Roosts or Tailwinds Talon might wish to put up. Talon has many good sets and I haven't seen any argument to prove Band is overrated- it's the best revenge killer in the metagame, possibly barring Band Dragonite in some cases. Scarf Raptor most definitely cannot compare.
"sigh"
I honestly don't see why Talonflame is so good.
But I'll keep my own (apparently) wrong thoughts to myself.
I'll stop commenting on this thread because everytime I do I'm wrong for some reason :/
Fuck me I'm dumb at times >_<
Edit: deleting the Tflame posts.
Sick of people replying to them.
I GET THE FUCKING POINT
Edit2: done. If anyone ELSE wants to shit on my arguments, go ahead
I honestly don't see why Talonflame is so good.
But I'll keep my own (apparently) wrong thoughts to myself.
I'll stop commenting on this thread because everytime I do I'm wrong for some reason :/
Fuck me I'm dumb at times >_<
Edit: deleting the Tflame posts.
Sick of people replying to them.
I GET THE FUCKING POINT
Edit2: done. If anyone ELSE wants to shit on my arguments, go ahead
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You just made a really bad comparison. If you want to bring Talonflame, bring relevant examples to help state your problems with the current ranking. :)
Me personally, Talonflame still deserves to be A+, he's too good of a revenge killer, really only unable to revenge kill Heatran and a set up Dragonite in the entire S-A-rank does show something. Not only that, it's stallbreaker set is great at stopping defensive Pokemon such as Mandibuzz and even due things such as guaranteed cripple Aegislash.
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