XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Rajikaru]

Saw this post at 4 AM in the morning and thought, "oh Arceus, they actually responded." Read the post, realized that it was just someone being butthurt, telling others to stop theorycrafting, claiming themselves to be knowledgeable on the subject and then proceeding to provide particular hypothetical situations in which the most idiotic plays are made. After that, a lengthy rant is made in regards to luck with more idiotic and irrelevant examples. In the end, a completely unsupported conclusion is made based off of the assumption that the opponent had counters to your team to begin with. Somewhere in this mass of meaningless text, two replays and the sad crit discussion are inserted.

In short, it looked like someone actually responded until you read it, then you realized that it was someone who claims themselves to be (more) knowledgeable restating everything that has been said except now with (different) stupidly specific situations and a conclusion that is reliant on the assumption that the opponent is prepared to begin with, effectively neutralizing the usefulness of the conclusion.

And here I stayed awake to read all this in the hopes of us getting out of our circle...



Maybe this pathetic excuse for an informed opinion is a dream and it'll be gone when I wake up...

As somebody who also supports something being done about Baton Pass, please stop. At this point you're literally just replying to every post that has a different opinion than yours by ranting about how "they didn't read the posts" and "they're just repeating what they're saying" even though they're clearly offering arguments and you don't seem to actually be arguing against them (making you a hypocrite int he process). You're just making yourself and everybody else who supports Baton Pass restructuring look bad.

 

[Legitimate Username]

WebBowser, people are against option 3 because it causes too much collateral damage. And yet you support it for that very reason? I could totally say that I support option 3 because I don't like it when Espeon Baton Passes away from my Tyranitar. I wonder what kind of response that would get.

Chain Pass and Quick Pass are not even close to being similar strategies. We're dealing with Chain Pass here, so your thoughts about Scolipede being broken on its own (which it isn't) aren't even relevant to the discussion. If it WAS truly broken, the right time to deal with it would be in its own suspect test, not on a test about an entirely different strategy.

And for the record, "no one has attempted to contradict [your] analysis" probably means that people aren't even willing to waste their time arguing about something that has no relevance to the issue at hand.

 

[DTM]

Honestly, in my opinion, the best way to nerf Full Baton Pass chains if it is broken is Option 2. I've said it before and I will say it again that Baton Pass teams are so successful because we have arguably the traits of six Pokemon combined into one. Each Pokemon in a Full-Baton Pass team has a specific role and function to ensure the win. Vaporeon, with its great defensive typing and huge HP stats, helps boosts the team's defense immensely while also providing a huge Substitute. Sylveon (and Mr. Mime if you run it) provides Special support as well as allowing more coverage options. Scolipede and Espeon's role is already widely known. Even Smeargle helps the team tremendously with Ingrain, Quiver Dance, Spore, etc. Zapdos (if you're running it) helps deal with flying spam while simultaneously providing Special Defense boosts with Charge. It is the combination of the 6 Pokemon that makes Full-Baton Pass teams so powerful. Thus, when you remove three important components of that chain, the chain loses the coverage and support that the three extra Baton Passers provided, meaning that the amount of checks and counters of Baton Pass widens extremely. 3 Baton Pass Teams may still be effective, but no where near broken. Option 2 severely nerf Baton Pass to make it not broken. The play style can still find some success, but it wont be broken. Option 3 has too many collateral issues and doesn't deal with the root of the problem, that is a chain of 6 Pokemon acting together. Baton Pass Scolidpede / Espeon aren't broken by themselves. If we are going to nerf Baton Pass, we should use Option 2.

 

[Derpinator]

As somebody who also supports something being done about Baton Pass, please stop. At this point you're literally just replying to every post that has a different opinion than yours by ranting about how "they didn't read the posts" and "they're just repeating what they're saying" even though they're clearly offering arguments and you don't seem to actually be arguing against them (making you a hypocrite int he process). You're just making yourself and everybody else who supports Baton Pass restructuring look bad.

Unless you are expecting me to repost every single time why assuming the other team has counters or arguing with specific situations or arguing why crits are irrelevant, the only thing left to do is refer them back to previous posts. If that is what you expect me to do, then a) that would keep the cycle going and b) that would me repeating myself still.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass or deliberately spreading misinformation, but I do know that if you actually tried out a BP team on the suspect ladder instead of just making shit up you would see how absolutely wrong you are.

This has been addressed numerous times. Th suspect ladder is riddled with people OVER prepared for BP chains. Look at the actual OU ladder, who's up there? (I hate bringing his name back into this, but) dEnIsSsS, and do you know why? Because the OU ladder is NOT riddled with people over preparing for BP chains, and for good reason. It's not common enough to force you to carry some of these counters, but, if you don't carry these counters, you're fucked.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, it forces you to bring something to counter a playstyle you will rarely ever see, but, you HAVE to carry it if you ever wish to beat it when you do encounter it. . .

That is over centralization bud. . .

 

[Red Cat]

And maybe it's just me, but BP is absolutely boring. It defeats the purpose of this game. I don't see any other reason to use it apart from getting easy wins. Again, not to say that it's broken but, to lazy noobs, it will definitely seem relatively easier to build teams and win with than non BP teams that require one to engage in more mind games, make more predictions i.e. take a lot more work.

First of all, whether it is boring has nothing to do with whether it should be nerfed or not. A lot of people consider stall to be boring, but it is a perfectly competitive strategy. Second, it is not an "easy" way of getting wins. You still have to know what the hell you are doing if you want to be successful with dEnIsSsS's team. A lot of people have tried using dEnIsSsS's team and have found that it doesn't just magically cause you to peak number 1 on the ladder. Almost everyone who has used dEnIsSsS's team can attest to this.

It is true that people who use dEnIsSsS's BP team are lazy team-builders because they literally copied and pasted his team. But I can do the same with any good team which I see in the RMT section and I will probably have some success with it.

 

[HBK]

First of all, whether it is boring has nothing to do with whether it should be nerfed or not. A lot of people consider stall to be boring, but it is a perfectly competitive strategy. Second, it is not an "easy" way of getting wins. You still have to know what the hell you are doing if you want to be successful with dEnIsSsS's team. A lot of people have tried using dEnIsSsS's team and have found that it doesn't just magically cause you to peak number 1 on the ladder. Almost everyone who has used dEnIsSsS's team can attest to this.

It is true that people who use dEnIsSsS's BP team are lazy team-builders because they literally copied and pasted his team. But I can do the same with any good team which I see in the RMT section and I will probably have some success with it.

Of course it has nothing to do with whether it should be banned or not. I find stall boring too but I'm not begging for it to be banned. I was just stating my personal opinion.

And, go through my post again. Unless you're on the BP suspect test ladder, abusing BP is RELATIVELY EASIER than using non-BP teams. This means that it still requires skill and knowledge, so it's not child's play in general but it's easier than building and using non BP teams.

 

[Srn]

I don't normally like doing long lists of quotes but I feel like some direct replies are warranted here:


Subs are a matter of risk vs reward- do you sub up on something that might switch out, even if you risk losing health in the process? Do you Baton Pass out of Smeargle, predicting a Thundurus switchin, or try to get up Ingrain? Subs are not free, and when your team entirely lacks any sort of recovery move every last bit of HP matters. They are absolutely a skill intensive move and very much punishing if used improperly.

I don't think you understand when i said y'all should be subbing:
When vaporeon is in on something like hippowdon (or any other very weak physical attacker) obviously, Vaporeon has an easy opportunity to get an acid armor up. Instead, you should be subbing. That's all i'm trying to say.
I don't disagree that subs aren't free, because they aren't, but when is baton pass gonna be boosting anyway? It's when they are in on a pokemon that cannot hurt them too much. In these situations, you sub instead of boosting.

Lando outspeeds and 2hkos standard Vaporeon with Earth Power. Breloom can Rock Tomb down subs over and over and threaten with Spore if it tries to set up. Both are very effective against everything else in the BP chain, which is useful in forcing the BP player into situations where they are vulnerable. Sylveon in particular is extremely easy to switch into early game and force out, simply because its slow and has no way of scouting with sub. The idea that they can't damage Sylveon isn't exactly true either- Sylveon really hates being hit by Thunder Wave and Taunt is a guaranteed way to force a hard switch.

Lando won't really be outspeeding (nor will anything really) when scolipede is around. it's pretty safe to assume that baton pass is gonna be faster and will have the advantage in speed at all times throughout a match except the first few turns, in which vaporeon would not be switching into lando anyway. With this information handy, scald is a clean 2hko from vap.
So Breloom vs Scolipede is a 50/50 situation where you have to guess Sub or iron defense. Very reliable way to beat baton pass.
Half of the mons that can effectively use taunt and actually have offensive presence (Mega zam, thundurus, terrak) are all cleanly OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by sylveon anyway. In combination with the likely speed boosts, taunt is risky in the first place.
And besides, it shouldn't be easy at all to switch into sylveon. The baton pass player should be using baton pass heavily to scout answers to his pokemon, and only boost when he knows he can get away with it 100% of the time.

And what does taunt and thunder wave have to do with damaging sylveon lol, those aren't attacks. You're the one being 2hko'd when you taunt or t-wave. It's annoying, yes, but you lose a major threat to baton pass in exchange for simply annoying sylveon.

Banded Stone Edge has a good shot at 2HKOing Vaporeon, even factoring in the Acid Armor boost, due to Sand Stream preventing Leftovers recovery:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Vaporeon: 289-342 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Even if it doesn't, Vaporeon will be so weakened that it will practically never have a chance to switch in again without a Sub already up. I've found that losing one of your main physical walls is almost always a worse bet than getting off a single boost, because that +2 defense is not going to be enough to stop your special defense boosters from getting wrecked by super effective moves.

I admit to underestimating CB ttar a tad, but that doesn't change the fact that scolipede can just alternate sub and protect to stall out stone edges. Sand damage will end after 5 turns so that isn't a problem either, not to even mention that hitting 8 stone edges in a row is ungodly.

Zapdos with Roost is almost never used on Baton Pass teams. Losing Charge or Thunderbolt reduces it's utility to the point where other members of your team should have no difficulty overwhelming it. Zapdos with Charge cannot switch into Psychic and expect to tank multiple hits even after a sp def boost:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides, if you used SR turn one then having them switch into Zapdos is exactly what you want them to do. Also, if Ingrain goes down, Zap is easily wiped out by Earth Power.

What if they lead zapdos and charge turn one? Also, a lot of landorus do not run sludge wave these days seeing as how knock off is just SO much more useful. Earth Power 2hko's azu anyway as well (av too after rocks) and sludge wave doesn't OHKO av variants. Thus, sludge wave landorus will not really be a problem.
Taking this information into account, sylveon actually deals with this guy good too. Not to mention smeargle spore is things get tough.

Even at +4, Life Orb Breloom is breaking this guy's subs, and an Adamant Focus Sash version also has a good shot:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 88-104 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 74-88 (23 - 27.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO

Nothing really wants to switch into a Rock Tomb (other than Vaporeon) even at +2 defense, leaving you with multiple opportunities to throw down Spore. The odds are heavily in your favor here. Also, you don't have to actually send Breloom out- simply the threat of Breloom on your team is enough to force them to lead with Scolipede. There are plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of this, especially hard hitting special sweepers like Nasty Plot Thundurus/Manaphy.

So you basically base your argument off of more 50/50s again. You have to hope that they lead scolipede while you lead NP thundy or manaphy (NP thund is easily stopped by charge zapdos btw), or you have to lead breloom hoping they lead zapdos/sylveon. Not to mention that breloom vs scolipede is another 50/50 match up right there (it's actually in scolipede's favor because rock tomb has a tiny chance to miss)
The odds aren't in your favor at all :I The match up is heavily prediction reliant and one wrong guess screws you over.

Yeah, that's what I mean t.t Anyways, Sylveon is annoyingly slow and gets outsped by common stuff even after several boosts. It is not hard to deal damage to it either with priority or hard hitting Choice Scarf users. Thunder Waving it early is another way to guarantee you have multiple attempts at trapping it late game.

Priority that actually hurts sylveon:
Scizor (vap fodder)
talon/pinsir (vap/zap)

"hard hitting choice scarf users"
Ok let's see check the well-used and viable scarf pokemon for a sec:
Garchomp (can't switch in, and you can baton pass to prevent a free switch-in from the opponent sacking mons. Not to mention that the only pokemon pressuring sylveon should be losing to it if it can be weak enough for chomp to kill.)
Exca (Diggersby) (Vap/Scoli fodder)
Heatran, though scarf is super uncommon. (vaporeon walls to hell)
Thunder Waving is also another way to gaurantee you lose your thundurus to sylveon, it's a pretty bad argument.

A baton pass player will make sure that sylveon isn't exposed to revenge killing and will thus tend to let vaporeon or zapdos get the kill.

Okay, so if the Baton Pass player predicts PERFECTLY every single time then yes, they will avoid the trap! Does that mean they always will? Absolutely not. There will be times when a BP player will try to Acid Armor and you catch them on the switch. Or, you can predict them switching out and hit whatever comes in hard with an attack. I think we established by now that no strategy against BP is perfect, it's YOUR job to predict what move they're going to make and check them accordingly.

Vaporeon trapping is still an extremely effective strategy and I find is bizarre that you're totally dismissing it as ineffective simply because a BP player totally outplaying the other player can work around it.

I'm dismissing it BECAUSE it is so prediction reliant and not reliable. Sure, i've won battles from taunting vaporeon too, but those were against scrubs who didn't know how to use baton pass properly. You have to realize how easy it is for baton pass to predict! They have the speed advantage and can just use baton pass to bypass any type of double switching, and they can scout with sub/protect/boosts.
Saying "there will be times when a bp player will make a dumb move" isn't a great argument, you have to find counters to baton pass as if you were playing denissss, who is probably one of teh only people who actually know how to use this style. You SPAM baton pass and make sure that the opponent will not take advantage of sacrificing pokemon to get revenge kills and/or put themselves in a good position vs baton pass.
Besides, you shouldn't be attacking anything unless the pokemon is boosted, is banded/specs and threatens the team, or you have more than enough boosts to clean up with espeon.
Giving the opponent opportunities with revenge killing set ups is not something a decent baton pass player does.

You can't say they have no place on teams like these, some hyperoffense teams throw in a single defensive pivot like Hippowdon or Skarmory just to help with hazard support or make it easier to switch between attackers.
As for u-turn/volt switch, Scizor in particular threatens both Sylveon and Espeon and can use U-turn as they inevitably Baton Pass out. Wash Rotom can threaten non-Scolipede leads with Trick, using Volt Switch to force it out.

I can indeed say they have no place on HO, because that's what HO is. HYPER OFFENSE. Do hippo and skarm seem like HO? No. HO doesn't use pivots or any shit like that, it more or less turns into offensive or balanced. There is a clear line between HO and offensive, and you can tell by the way teams these play. HO will sack mons to get free switch-ins, and offensive will use skarm as pivots to help switch ins.
It's accurate to say that phazing moves will have NO place on HYPER OFFENSE teams. because that's what they are.

As for teh whole pivot business, Scizor is ez as fuck to set up on with vap, and bandzor is an extremely subpar set which barely helps against bp anyway. If they seriously lock themselves into BP, then you're playing a pretty bad opponent.
Rotom-w can't pull any BS on scoli at all, scoli should be scouting for stuff like this with a simply protect. Thus, you actually lose momentum if you attempt to attack or anything because the baton pass player can see that you're simply about to use volt switch and then iron defense or simply set up a sub to block the attack.

Breaking BP defensive cores is about forcing them into situations which are advantageous for you, as even the best checks will not work if placed against a Pokemon tailored to deal with it. So no, if you lead with Azumarill against Scolipede, you're probably not going to take anything down in the process. But if you force a switch into Espeon early game, predict this and go to Azumarill, then set up, something is going to take an enormous amount of damage. I think you underestimate how devastating doing something like 80% damage to Vaporeon can be, especially before they are able to get up Ingrain. +2 def simply isn't enough for the likes of Espeon and Sylveon to tank super effective physical attacks, of which there are plenty- and if Vaporeon never has another chance to come in it can be near impossible for them to get the boosts they need. A weakened Vaporeon, for instance, won't be able to "easily roar" Clefable anymore, allowing it to potentially beat the BP chain.
Excadrill in sand is fast enough to outspeed +4 speed Sylveon (so they can't BP out) and do an enormous amount of damage with Iron Head. Simply taking out Sylveon is usually enough to win you the match, especially if you have a Dark type pokemon on your team.
Zapdos can only Charge so many times against Aegislash. Life Orb Shadow Ball will deal over 60% damage on the switchin, and taking that kind of damage means it won't be able to stop threats like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir later in the match.

None of these checks exist in a vacuum. They can't be used as catch all solutions to BP- they're just very utilitarian sets that can be used in combination with other Pokemon to force BP chains into situations where they take more damage than the BP user can easily handle. Even if you cant outright take down a BP mon, just dealing enormous amounts of damage to 2-3 major threats can be enough to allow something to get picked off by priority when they're trying to build up enough Calm Mind boosts for an endgame sweep.

Winning with baton pass is about making sure the opponent does not get into an advantageous situation like you said, because of course it would be easy as fuck to win if a vap is just sitting there exposed to all the wonders of the world. You use Sub, baton pass, and not unnecessarily kill pokemon whenever possible, and avoiding these types of situations will thus not be too difficult.
The azu vs espeon situation involves double switching, which doesn't work at all vs baton pass. Duh.
The baton pass player will be using sub or baton pass first when such a threat exists on the opposing side. They will not simply calm mind if exca can come in and just iron head. You're assuming that the baton pass player is dumb or something.
LO aegislash is a pretty decent threat, i'll admit, it's tough to switch into. But LO aegis is pretty bad, spooky plate is superior and unfortunately in this secnario, weaker.

What I mean by "absorber" is a target you're willing to have put to sleep, usually something like Tyranitar being a good choice (if you only need Sand up). My point was that it can be difficult to decide in the middle of a match whether or not you want your Landorus put to sleep or something else, so deciding this ahead of time leads to more consistent play.

So basically, sack a pokemon that may help you win against baton pass and lose momentum. sounds great.
I understand the point you're trying to get across, but sacking a mon to sleep does not help that much, it just cuts off an escape route for baton pass in exchange for losing momentum.

also:



I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass or deliberately spreading misinformation, but I do know that if you actually tried out a BP team on the suspect ladder instead of just making shit up you would see how absolutely wrong you are. Any good player with a solid team, good prediction, and a modicrum of preparation can beat even the absolute best Baton Pass players with a high degree of success. The sheer amount of scouting and mindgames required to win with a BP team consistently is immense, and is less "mindless" than all the copy-paste Deo/sharp cores that everyone and their aunt seems to be using on the OU ladder these days.

I hope I don't sound too jaded about some of the responses in this thread, but I feel like the vast majority of the players completely missed the point of that big ol' recommendation in the OP:

""Remember to abuse full Baton Pass chains as much as you can, in order to have an informed opinion on the topic.""

I can sorta agree that people really underestimate how tough it is to properly play baton pass. It's not as easy as boost and kill.

It isn't "abuse Baton Pass chains only if that makes it easier to raise your COIL score" or even "use BP chains if you want them to stay unbanned", it's "use them so you can know what the fuck you are talking about". I do not care if whatever theorycrafting you came up with here says that Vaporeon + Scolipede can reliably lead against every single threat in the meta, in reality on the ladder things get more complicated and you see more variety in sets than you may be willing to give credit. Something like Haze Greninja may sound mediocre to you, but if you're a BP player and see the move every time one comes up, this is something that is worth paying attention to and at the very least take seriously. I also do not think it is merely enough simply to have battled these kinds of teams- using them against a variety of opponents can teach the nuances of what makes these kinds of teams tick and what their limitations are in a way simply reacting to someone else using them will not.

That being said, I have given my 160 match gauntlet of BP battles (and my previous matches using the chain) a fair amount more reflection. While I still strongly disagree with the assessment that there's anything "broken" about Baton Pass or that it's inherently a skill-less/prediction-less strategy, I do not believe my growing irritation with the team was simply due to team fatigue or repetition. A very different kind of realization was coming to me as I finished more and more difficult matchups- that the beginning turns influenced the rest of the match to an extreme degree.

Yeah having used baton pass for a bit helps arguing against it.
And i never said that haze ninja wasn't a threat to baton pass, because it is, i said that it was a sub par set. I'm being forced to run a sub par set to threaten baton pass and that's annoying.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, consider the following scenarios:

You're running a balanced offense team and you lead with Mega Venusaur. Your opponent sens in Pinsir, and expecting the Return, you try to switch in Thundurus. But lo and behold! Your opponent is running some gimmicky Pinsir set with Stone Edge! Your Thundurus gets wrecked on the switchin, but it's not the end of the world- you still can use checks like Talonflame or Scarf Landorus-T to easily revenge kill it or force it out. Yes, you're down a Pokemon, but you've effectively neutralized your opponent's momentum- you're on "even ground" in terms of sweeping capacity, as long as you make good predictions from that point forwards. You are put at a disadvantage, but it is possible to pull yourself back with a series of good plays.

So the opponent is leading with mega pinsir when you have a talonflame, a lando-t, and a thundurus on your side.
ok
I understand the point you're trying to make that you can regain momentum despite bad plays, but even ground is not really starting off the match 5-6.

Now consider a match where you lead with Choice Band Talonflame against Scolipede and predict a Zapdos switchin, and decide to use Flare Blitz. For whatever reason the Scolipede user decides to stay in and gets up an Iron Defense, allowing them to tank the hit and gather even more speed boosts. That one Iron Defense is the difference between Smeargle getting picked off by Bullet Punch or being able to pass off a Quiver Dance boost. That extra Quiver Dance means that their Zapdos can OHKO the Bisharp you try to send into it after a Charge. With the Bisharp gone, their Espeon can start setting up Calm Mind boosts easily, which in turn allows Vaporeon to sub up on special attacks and set up Acid Armor. All these defensive boosts means that their +6/+6 Sylveon can tank everything on your team and go for an end-game sweep.

All because you made one misplay the first turn which was ultimately the result of bad luck.

This scenario is actually pretty dumb because if for whatever reason the baton pass player leads Scolipede DESPITE talonflame being on the opposing side, it could just protect and see what move you're locked into. From there, it can hard switch into zapdos if brave bird or baton pass into vaporeon if flare blitz.
However, the hard switch into zapdos is a pretty good opportunity to predict and make a double switch, i'll give you that. It's still a prediction and scolipede could still just literally stay in and iron defense, but the risk vs. reward for the baton pass players makes it pretty likely it'll switch out. But nothing is certain still.

I am hesitant to use the term "luck" or "chance" here because predicting your opponent's moves is one of the key skills in Pokemon, and while the moves they make are inherently uncertain, they are most definitely not random. Pokemon is unique among many games in that it embraces various degrees of randomness, allowing players to take risky actions that have potentially higher rewards as long as they do not overly impact the opponent's ability to choose how much and what kind of risks they are willing to take. You can, for instance, bank on Ancientpower boosts on Togekiss to go for a sweep if you really wanted to- it would be a horribly unreliable strategy, but even if it did pay off, any decently prepared team should be able to check it- preventing "all in" strategies like this from having too much of a long term impact on how the game develops. You can use Chansey and Sableye as counters to Specs Keldeo if you like feel you have ungodly prediction skills, but this doesn't prevent the opponent from simply sending in another sweeper and continuing to bring down pressure. Players need to think beyond coin flips to consistently win matches- long term planning and evaluating which moves are the most efficient are also key elements of winning matches, and for many players that's what makes competitive Pokemon entertaining. That's why it's sometimes extremely frustrating to make use of a playstyle which is so heavily dependent on decision making which heavily depends on "coin flip" prediction scenarios early game and the blessing of the RNG.

I don't think you understand how dumb ancientpower boosts are: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-windy-city-peak-1098-winning-record.3508463/
It's the most retarded thing in the world ever.

Chansey and sableye don't even counter in the first place, you're using the wrong word there. Besides, its up to stall to stop such sweeping pressure with residual damage/raw bulk, and decent stall teams can do as such. So it's not a great argument.
Also, you could just run LO keld, or even scarier, ebelt.
And predictions aren't really coin flips, because even though that volcorona COULD stay in an quiver dance against that azumarill, it's not really likely at all. That's not a 50/50 prediction what so ever. 50/50s mean that either could happen, and both are just as likely. It is FAR more likely that volc is switching out, thus its not a 50/50. so using the term "coin flip" isn't accurate at all.

The first 3 to 5 turns against- or as- a BP player, usually consisting of little more than educated guesswork, have more of an impact on the outcome of a match than any other playstyle I have ever seen. By that same token, one missed attack, meant to catch a BP user off guard, has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. One crit against a BP chain before they can comfortably keep up subs has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. Anyone who has ever used a BP chain thoroughly should be able to attest to this. Hell, I'll admit to winning matches against players who otherwise played extremely well simply because I happened to make the right predictions/got lucky during those first few turns:

In exchange for being OP as fuck misplays matter in the first few turns. In a deo-d vs deo-d match up if you taunt and forget about magic coat, you've screwed up quite a bit too, although HO is by no means unbeatable late game like baton pass is.
Crits apply to every team style, they just affect baton pass a little more.
And no matter how bad the team matchup is, you can still win with prediction throughout the game. If you have a bad match up vs baton pass, its gg turn one no matter what you do.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128414511
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128235455

From my experience on the ladder, I do not think that Baton Pass is in any way overpowered. I feel like I used it to a decent amount of proficiency and managed to defeat- and lose to- teams of top OU threats by skilled players to a fairly even degree. I would go as far as to say that a top tier offensive OU core, played well, has a significant advantage against BP chains- without excellent prediction and constant scouting, BP walls simply can't keep up with the continual offensive onslaught. What is heavily problematic, however, is the extent Baton Pass forces opponents to depend heavily both on luck and "gut instinct" early game to win matches, whether they want to or not. There is NO WAY to play "completely safe" during those initial stages against a Baton Pass user, even with gimmick sets. These early game turns are so frustrating and difficult to control both for the Baton Pass user and the opponent that "uncompetitive" is about the only word which adequately describes them. Is this justification for a nerf? Perhaps, but not for the reasons being listed throughout this thread.

Here's the difference:
You only need a little bit of luck/gut instinct in the first few turns, every other turn after that is a breeze. Which is the unfair part. Like you said, even if you're extremely prepared for baton pass, with a little bit of luck the baton pass player will win regardless.
It's not really being "exposed" in the early turns, its rather just being "less exposed." The first few turns seem more important because in comparison, when you have enough boosts, it is a fucking breeze. You play the first few turns with

 

[WebBowser]

WebBowser, people are against option 3 because it causes too much collateral damage. And yet you support it for that very reason? I could totally say that I support option 3 because I don't like it when Espeon Baton Passes away from my Tyranitar. I wonder what kind of response that would get.

Chain Pass and Quick Pass are not even close to being similar strategies. We're dealing with Chain Pass here, so your thoughts about Scolipede being broken on its own (which it isn't) aren't even relevant to the discussion. If it WAS truly broken, the right time to deal with it would be in its own suspect test, not on a test about an entirely different strategy.

And for the record, "no one has attempted to contradict [your] analysis" probably means that people aren't even willing to waste their time arguing about something that has no relevance to the issue at hand.

So your main point here is that the question of whether or not Scolipede is broken on it's own is not relevant, correct? I respectfully disagree. If there is a team built around supporting a broken mon or abusing the support provided by a broken pokemon, then it is impossible to determine whether or not the team as a whole is inherently broken while they are still relying on that broken mon. For example, let us say there existed a mon in OU that could sweep the entire tier with only a single turn of setup, and it could find setup opportunities against a wide variety of OU threats. Obviously, such a pokemon would be a great boon to Hyper Offense. Now let us say that someone has recognized this pokemon's potential and has built an HO team around making darn sure that his broken sweeper gets that 1 turn of setup, as well as countering what few checks and counters this sweeper has. This team is now broken.

Now let us say that this broken team falls into the hands of a decently competent player and said player uses it to peak the ladder for an extended period of time. People will begin to notice, and the metagame will devolve into HO teams built around this sweeper and teams meant to try and counter those HO teams (lets say, for example, the sweeper in question is screwed by TR). This would be overcentralizing. Now, chances are in this situation, HO is not broken, it is this sweeper that is enabling HO that is broken. Furthermore, even if it turned out HO was inherently broken, it would be impossible to determine it as such in this situation.

This case is slightly different, because we are dealing with a support mon as opposed to a sweeper. However, mega gengar has adequately proven that a mon does not need to be an unstoppable sweeper to be uber, it just so happens that a lot of ubers are broken sweepers. I have argued quite forcefully that Scolipede is broken, due to the reliability and magnitude of the support he provides, and I have not seen any very strong counter arguments. Because Scolipede is broken, it would be premature to limit full baton pass in the way option 2 does before addressing Scolipede. Sadly, banning iron defense Scolipede, or Scolipede outright is not an option, but option 3 essentially does that, and therefore I support it. This is the crux of my argument.

Also, your comparison between my position and BP espeon is nothing more then an incredibly weak strawman. Espeon is at best a stallbreaker, and is otherwise an inferior dual screens setter or a somewhat effective but outclassed surprise revenge killer, while Scolipede is a unique and powerful, possibly broken sweeper supporter. There is no relationship between the two other then option 3 happens to target them both.

 

[Derpinator]

So your main point here is that the question of whether or not Scolipede is broken on it's own is not relevant, correct? I respectfully disagree. If there is a team built around supporting a broken mon or abusing the support provided by a broken pokemon, then it is impossible to determine whether or not the team as a whole is inherently broken while they are still relying on that broken mon. For example, let us say there existed a mon in OU that could sweep the entire tier with only a single turn of setup, and it could find setup opportunities against a wide variety of OU threats. Obviously, such a pokemon would be a great boon to Hyper Offense. Now let us say that someone has recognized this pokemon's potential and has built an HO team around making darn sure that his broken sweeper gets that 1 turn of setup, as well as countering what few checks and counters this sweeper has. This team is now broken.

Now let us say that this broken team falls into the hands of a decently competent player and said player uses it to peak the ladder for an extended period of time. People will begin to notice, and the metagame will devolve into HO teams built around this sweeper and teams meant to try and counter those HO teams (lets say, for example, the sweeper in question is screwed by TR). This would be overcentralizing. Now, chances are in this situation, HO is not broken, it is this sweeper that is enabling HO that is broken. Furthermore, even if it turned out HO was inherently broken, it would be impossible to determine it as such in this situation.

This case is slightly different, because we are dealing with a support mon as opposed to a sweeper. However, mega gengar has adequately proven that a mon does not need to be an unstoppable sweeper to be uber, it just so happens that a lot of ubers are broken sweepers. I have argued quite forcefully that Scolipede is broken, due to the reliability and magnitude of the support he provides, and I have not seen any very strong counter arguments. Because Scolipede is broken, it would be premature to limit full baton pass in the way option 2 does before addressing Scolipede. Sadly, banning iron defense Scolipede, or Scolipede outright is not an option, but option 3 essentially does that, and therefore I support it. This is the crux of my argument.

Also, your comparison between my position and BP espeon is nothing more then an incredibly weak strawman. Espeon is at best a stallbreaker, and is otherwise an inferior dual screens setter or a somewhat effective but outclassed surprise revenge killer, while Scolipede is a unique and powerful, possibly broken sweeper supporter. There is no relationship between the two other then option 3 happens to target them both.

Just to make sure that I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that Scolipede, by itself, is broken solely due to its ability to, in your opinon, practically guarantee that a recipient Pokemon gets at least +1 Speed and potentially +2 Defense, correct?

 

[Karxrida]

WebBowser, people are against option 3 because it causes too much collateral damage. And yet you support it for that very reason? I could totally say that I support option 3 because I don't like it when Espeon Baton Passes away from my Tyranitar. I wonder what kind of response that would get.

Chain Pass and Quick Pass are not even close to being similar strategies. We're dealing with Chain Pass here, so your thoughts about Scolipede being broken on its own (which it isn't) aren't even relevant to the discussion. If it WAS truly broken, the right time to deal with it would be in its own suspect test, not on a test about an entirely different strategy.

And for the record, "no one has attempted to contradict [your] analysis" probably means that people aren't even willing to waste their time arguing about something that has no relevance to the issue at hand.

Fuck the collateral, we never cared about it before. Baton Pass needs to die, and die HARD.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I don't think you understand when i said y'all should be subbing:
When vaporeon is in on something like hippowdon (or any other very weak physical attacker) obviously, Vaporeon has an easy opportunity to get an acid armor up. Instead, you should be subbing. That's all i'm trying to say.

If your facing baton pass you probably shouldn't be sending something out with little offensive presence at all. Also even then Hippo can whirlwhind away sub (assuming no ingrain). Also if you predict the espeon switch in: 4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) Pretty good damage and this much defense isn't even normally run


Lando won't really be outspeeding (nor will anything really) when scolipede is around. it's pretty safe to assume that baton pass is gonna be faster and will have the advantage in speed at all times throughout a match except the first few turns, in which vaporeon would not be switching into lando anyway. With this information handy, scald is a clean 2hko from vap.

Vaporeon isn't normally running scald it will run roar. If it doesn't set up sweepers have easy time vs baton pass.

So Breloom vs Scolipede is a 50/50 situation where you have to guess Sub or iron defense. Very reliable way to beat baton pass.

Still an option.

Half of the mons that can effectively use taunt and actually have offensive presence (Mega zam, thundurus, terrak) are all cleanly OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by sylveon anyway. In combination with the likely speed boosts, taunt is risky in the first place.


And besides, it shouldn't be easy at all to switch into sylveon. The baton pass player should be using baton pass heavily to scout answers to his pokemon, and only boost when he knows he can get away with it 100% of the time.

And what does taunt and thunder wave have to do with damaging sylveon lol, those aren't attacks. You're the one being 2hko'd when you taunt or t-wave. It's annoying, yes, but you lose a major threat to baton pass in exchange for simply annoying sylveon.

So don't send them in via sylveon. Send in some physical attacker and when they go to zapdos, vaporeon, or scolipede bring in your taunter.

I admit to underestimating CB ttar a tad, but that doesn't change the fact that scolipede can just alternate sub and protect to stall out stone edges. Sand damage will end after 5 turns so that isn't a problem either, not to even mention that hitting 8 stone edges in a row is ungodly.

Doesn't need to hit protect turns just needs to hit the turns you sub. You can only sub 3 times and even them the storm will kill you.

What if they lead zapdos and charge turn one? Also, a lot of landorus do not run sludge wave these days seeing as how knock off is just SO much more useful. Earth Power 2hko's azu anyway as well (av too after rocks) and sludge wave doesn't OHKO av variants. Thus, sludge wave landorus will not really be a problem.
Taking this information into account, sylveon actually deals with this guy good too. Not to mention smeargle spore is things get tough.

Sludge Wave 37.944% still 4th most common move. You lead with your lando use psychic 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%)
They get one boost then are forced to switch out: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 110-131 (28.6 - 34.1%)
Also if you use cm lando they are in trouble.
Have something else take the spore.

So you basically base your argument off of more 50/50s again. You have to hope that they lead scolipede while you lead NP thundy or manaphy (NP thund is easily stopped by charge zapdos btw), or you have to lead breloom hoping they lead zapdos/sylveon. Not to mention that breloom vs scolipede is another 50/50 match up right there (it's actually in scolipede's favor because rock tomb has a tiny chance to miss)
The odds aren't in your favor at all :I The match up is heavily prediction reliant and one wrong guess screws you over.

Breloom can bulletseed vaporeon, smeargle espeon sylveon or spore all but espeon also so not that bad.


You SPAM baton pass and make sure that the opponent will not take advantage of sacrificing pokemon to get revenge kills and/or put themselves in a good position vs baton pass.
Besides, you shouldn't be attacking anything unless the pokemon is boosted, is banded/specs and threatens the team, or you have more than enough boosts to clean up with espeon.
Giving the opponent opportunities with revenge killing set ups is not something a decent baton pass player does.

Spamming baton pass just lets me get free attacks or set ups in instead of letting you boost.

I can indeed say they have no place on HO, because that's what HO is. HYPER OFFENSE. Do hippo and skarm seem like HO? No. HO doesn't use pivots or any shit like that, it more or less turns into offensive or balanced. There is a clear line between HO and offensive, and you can tell by the way teams these play. HO will sack mons to get free switch-ins, and offensive will use skarm as pivots to help switch ins.
It's accurate to say that phazing moves will have NO place on HYPER OFFENSE teams. because that's what they are.

Either way hyper offense already does decent vs bp.

As for teh whole pivot business, Scizor is ez as fuck to set up on with vap, and bandzor is an extremely subpar set which barely helps against bp anyway. If they seriously lock themselves into BP, then you're playing a pretty bad opponent.
Rotom-w can't pull any BS on scoli at all, scoli should be scouting for stuff like this with a simply protect. Thus, you actually lose momentum if you attempt to attack or anything because the baton pass player can see that you're simply about to use volt switch and then iron defense or simply set up a sub to block the attack.

By using trick you at least take one poke out of the chain basically making life much easier

Chansey and sableye don't even counter in the first place,

Sabeleye does counter pretty well by being able to taunt, to damage to espeon, really only fears sylveon which can be taken advantage of

comments in bold. Only commented on points I thought you were off on.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Posted this in the simple questions thread and didn't get any responses but this might be a better thread to ask:

Could Murkrow have a niche in OU for countering BP teams? Prankster Haze and Perish Song looks good to me.

yes, but it is basically useless besides that and really shouldn't be used

 

[Srn]

If your facing baton pass you probably shouldn't be sending something out with little offensive presence at all. Also even then Hippo can whirlwhind away sub (assuming no ingrain). Also if you predict the espeon switch in: 4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 118-139 (35.3 - 41.6%) Pretty good damage and this much defense isn't even normally run

The point was that vap subs on weak physical attackers instead of acid armoring, no need to take the example so literally.

Vaporeon isn't normally running scald it will run roar. If it doesn't set up sweepers have easy time vs baton pass.

Scald is still REALLY common on vap, and you cannot risk losing lando banking on the fact they don't have scald. That's like setting an SD with talonflame on a breloom hoping they don't have rock tomb.

Still an option.

A bad an extremely unreliable option, yes.

So don't send them in via sylveon. Send in some physical attacker and when they go to zapdos, vaporeon, or scolipede bring in your taunter.

The baton pass player will be using baton pass to scout your switches. That's also incorrect use of "via," via is a means or a way through which you do something.

Doesn't need to hit protect turns just needs to hit the turns you sub. You can only sub 3 times and even them the storm will kill you.

You're correct, but you still gotta realize this is stone miss. Not too reliable at all :/ If stone edge was more accurate band tar would be an excellent answer for sure.

Sludge Wave 37.944% still 4th most common move. You lead with your lando use psychic 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%)
They get one boost then are forced to switch out: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 110-131 (28.6 - 34.1%)
Also if you use cm lando they are in trouble.
Have something else take the spore.

I think dismissing spore as "have something else take it" is a tad ignorant. You're correct about everything else tho, i'm quite surprised people still use sludge wave :/

Breloom can bulletseed vaporeon, smeargle espeon sylveon or spore all but espeon also so not that bad.

and after one defense boost, which follows after one misplay of 50/50s (not easy to maintain) none of your attacks do any significant damage. Well that's not great.
Also, relying on bullet seed against baton pass haha good luck with that.

Spamming baton pass just lets me get free attacks or set ups in instead of letting you boost.

So nobody should scout anything ever because they just take unnecessary damage. Scouting sucks and is useless in every form and manner.

Either way hyper offense already does decent vs bp.

That's besides the point, and i'm not arguing against that. You have to have some specific members to pressure baton passs too, along with soem luck.

By using trick you at least take one poke out of the chain basically making life much easier

You say that, but i get a speed boost after protect, i bp out to smeargle, baton pass again, and then you're locked into trick while i get to scout/set up a sub/boost. The situation is NOT as ideal as you make it out to be, and losing smeargle doesn't mean too much late game.

Sabeleye does counter pretty well by being able to taunt, to damage to espeon, really only fears sylveon which can be taken advantage of

Oh come on. Atleast read the stuff to which i replied to before posting this common knowledge.
The context which you missed was Vryheid giving an example of Chansey and sableye "countering" specs keldeo, which it does not.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

The point was that vap subs on weak physical attackers instead of acid armoring, no need to take the example so literally.

fair enough, but like i said why are you even sending in weak attackers in at all vs bp.

Scald is still REALLY common on vap, and you cannot risk losing lando banking on the fact they don't have scald. That's like setting an SD with talonflame on a breloom hoping they don't have rock tomb.

no clue on how common it actually is, but loosing roar imo is generally not worth it.

A bad an extremely unreliable option, yes.

your making 50% sound horrible, not ideal, but not that bad.

The baton pass player will be using baton pass to scout your switches. That's also incorrect use of "via," via is a means or a way through which you do something.

sorry meant vs not via

You're correct, but you still gotta realize this is stone miss. Not too reliable at all :/ If stone edge was more accurate band tar would be an excellent answer for sure.

sometimes you just got to hope for hits. Either way Scolipede can tank a stone edge at +2 baton pass to vaporeon and further boost defense

I think dismissing spore as "have something else take it" is a tad ignorant. You're correct about everything else tho, i'm quite surprised people still use sludge wave :/

Just send in a grass type, mandibuzz, or something with little offensive presence. Then you don't have to fear spore again

and after one defense boost, which follows after one misplay of 50/50s (not easy to maintain) none of your attacks do any significant damage. Well that's not great.
Also, relying on bullet seed against baton pass haha good luck with that.

Still if you predict right, you will probably win. Also seed breaks subs and sash. SD Loom a huge threat.

So nobody should scout anything ever because they just take unnecessary damage. Scouting sucks and is useless in every form and manner.

Not saying scouting suck, but you don't "spam" bp. You use it when need to, but not really spam it

That's besides the point, and i'm not arguing against that. You have to have some specific members to pressure baton passs too, along with soem luck.


You say that, but i get a speed boost after protect, i bp out to smeargle, baton pass again, and then you're locked into trick while i get to scout/set up a sub/boost. The situation is NOT as ideal as you make it out to be, and losing smeargle doesn't mean too much late game.

Thing is i'm not locked into trick as you have my scarf now. Then i'm free to attack while you baton pass out. Losing ingrain, spore, and quiver dance can prove quite fatal some matches.


Oh come on. Atleast read the stuff to which i replied to before posting this common knowledge.
The context which you missed was Vryheid giving an example of Chansey and sableye "countering" specs keldeo, which it does not.

Sorry was long post

responses in bold

 

[Hclegend]

One of my friends had an idea that I like, which is to ban baton passing after you've been baton passed to. You can have pokemon baton passing whatever buffs you want, just not after they've been baton passed to.

Okay, I know the OP doesn't say this, but there are 3 options, no more, no less

At the end of the testing period, qualified players will be asked to choose one of the following options:
Do nothing and keep the metagame as it is;
Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);
Ban the combination of the move Baton Pass in conjunction with the ability Magic Bounce and the ability Speed Boost (complex ban).

And even IF people were taking ideas, this wouldn't be accepted because
A. It messes with the game mechanics, which besides extreme examples (Sleep Clause) is pretty much a no no
B. you can still abuse Scollipedes ability to pass boosts (Hello? Iron Defence AND Swords Dance along with Speed Boost)
And C. It's just... No
(I'm with Derpinator on this one, stupid arguments being thowrn around all the damn time)

 

[Flamer]

I don't normally like doing long lists of quotes but I feel like some direct replies are warranted here:

answers to stuff

Subs are a matter of risk vs reward- do you sub up on something that might switch out, even if you risk losing health in the process? Do you Baton Pass out of Smeargle, predicting a Thundurus switchin, or try to get up Ingrain? Subs are not free, and when your team entirely lacks any sort of recovery move every last bit of HP matters. They are absolutely a skill intensive move and very much punishing if used improperly.



Lando outspeeds and 2hkos standard Vaporeon with Earth Power. Breloom can Rock Tomb down subs over and over and threaten with Spore if it tries to set up. Both are very effective against everything else in the BP chain, which is useful in forcing the BP player into situations where they are vulnerable. Sylveon in particular is extremely easy to switch into early game and force out, simply because its slow and has no way of scouting with sub. The idea that they can't damage Sylveon isn't exactly true either- Sylveon really hates being hit by Thunder Wave and Taunt is a guaranteed way to force a hard switch.



Banded Stone Edge has a good shot at 2HKOing Vaporeon, even factoring in the Acid Armor boost, due to Sand Stream preventing Leftovers recovery:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Vaporeon: 289-342 (62.2 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

Even if it doesn't, Vaporeon will be so weakened that it will practically never have a chance to switch in again without a Sub already up. I've found that losing one of your main physical walls is almost always a worse bet than getting off a single boost, because that +2 defense is not going to be enough to stop your special defense boosters from getting wrecked by super effective moves.



Zapdos with Roost is almost never used on Baton Pass teams. Losing Charge or Thunderbolt reduces it's utility to the point where other members of your team should have no difficulty overwhelming it. Zapdos with Charge cannot switch into Psychic and expect to tank multiple hits even after a sp def boost:

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides, if you used SR turn one then having them switch into Zapdos is exactly what you want them to do. Also, if Ingrain goes down, Zap is easily wiped out by Earth Power.



Even at +4, Life Orb Breloom is breaking this guy's subs, and an Adamant Focus Sash version also has a good shot:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 88-104 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Rock Tomb vs. +4 240 HP / 80 Def Scolipede: 74-88 (23 - 27.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO

Nothing really wants to switch into a Rock Tomb (other than Vaporeon) even at +2 defense, leaving you with multiple opportunities to throw down Spore. The odds are heavily in your favor here. Also, you don't have to actually send Breloom out- simply the threat of Breloom on your team is enough to force them to lead with Scolipede. There are plenty of Pokemon that can take advantage of this, especially hard hitting special sweepers like Nasty Plot Thundurus/Manaphy.



Yeah, that's what I mean t.t Anyways, Sylveon is annoyingly slow and gets outsped by common stuff even after several boosts. It is not hard to deal damage to it either with priority or hard hitting Choice Scarf users. Thunder Waving it early is another way to guarantee you have multiple attempts at trapping it late game.



Okay, so if the Baton Pass player predicts PERFECTLY every single time then yes, they will avoid the trap! Does that mean they always will? Absolutely not. There will be times when a BP player will try to Acid Armor and you catch them on the switch. Or, you can predict them switching out and hit whatever comes in hard with an attack. I think we established by now that no strategy against BP is perfect, it's YOUR job to predict what move they're going to make and check them accordingly.

Vaporeon trapping is still an extremely effective strategy and I find is bizarre that you're totally dismissing it as ineffective simply because a BP player totally outplaying the other player can work around it.



You can't say they have no place on teams like these, some hyperoffense teams throw in a single defensive pivot like Hippowdon or Skarmory just to help with hazard support or make it easier to switch between attackers.
As for u-turn/volt switch, Scizor in particular threatens both Sylveon and Espeon and can use U-turn as they inevitably Baton Pass out. Wash Rotom can threaten non-Scolipede leads with Trick, using Volt Switch to force it out.



Breaking BP defensive cores is about forcing them into situations which are advantageous for you, as even the best checks will not work if placed against a Pokemon tailored to deal with it. So no, if you lead with Azumarill against Scolipede, you're probably not going to take anything down in the process. But if you force a switch into Espeon early game, predict this and go to Azumarill, then set up, something is going to take an enormous amount of damage. I think you underestimate how devastating doing something like 80% damage to Vaporeon can be, especially before they are able to get up Ingrain. +2 def simply isn't enough for the likes of Espeon and Sylveon to tank super effective physical attacks, of which there are plenty- and if Vaporeon never has another chance to come in it can be near impossible for them to get the boosts they need. A weakened Vaporeon, for instance, won't be able to "easily roar" Clefable anymore, allowing it to potentially beat the BP chain.
Excadrill in sand is fast enough to outspeed +4 speed Sylveon (so they can't BP out) and do an enormous amount of damage with Iron Head. Simply taking out Sylveon is usually enough to win you the match, especially if you have a Dark type pokemon on your team.
Zapdos can only Charge so many times against Aegislash. Life Orb Shadow Ball will deal over 60% damage on the switchin, and taking that kind of damage means it won't be able to stop threats like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir later in the match.

None of these checks exist in a vacuum. They can't be used as catch all solutions to BP- they're just very utilitarian sets that can be used in combination with other Pokemon to force BP chains into situations where they take more damage than the BP user can easily handle. Even if you cant outright take down a BP mon, just dealing enormous amounts of damage to 2-3 major threats can be enough to allow something to get picked off by priority when they're trying to build up enough Calm Mind boosts for an endgame sweep.



What I mean by "absorber" is a target you're willing to have put to sleep, usually something like Tyranitar being a good choice (if you only need Sand up). My point was that it can be difficult to decide in the middle of a match whether or not you want your Landorus put to sleep or something else, so deciding this ahead of time leads to more consistent play.

also:



I don't know if you're just talking out of your ass or deliberately spreading misinformation, but I do know that if you actually tried out a BP team on the suspect ladder instead of just making shit up you would see how absolutely wrong you are. Any good player with a solid team, good prediction, and a modicrum of preparation can beat even the absolute best Baton Pass players with a high degree of success. The sheer amount of scouting and mindgames required to win with a BP team consistently is immense, and is less "mindless" than all the copy-paste Deo/sharp cores that everyone and their aunt seems to be using on the OU ladder these days.

I hope I don't sound too jaded about some of the responses in this thread, but I feel like the vast majority of the players completely missed the point of that big ol' recommendation in the OP:

""Remember to abuse full Baton Pass chains as much as you can, in order to have an informed opinion on the topic.""

It isn't "abuse Baton Pass chains only if that makes it easier to raise your COIL score" or even "use BP chains if you want them to stay unbanned", it's "use them so you can know what the fuck you are talking about". I do not care if whatever theorycrafting you came up with here says that Vaporeon + Scolipede can reliably lead against every single threat in the meta, in reality on the ladder things get more complicated and you see more variety in sets than you may be willing to give credit. Something like Haze Greninja may sound mediocre to you, but if you're a BP player and see the move every time one comes up, this is something that is worth paying attention to and at the very least take seriously. I also do not think it is merely enough simply to have battled these kinds of teams- using them against a variety of opponents can teach the nuances of what makes these kinds of teams tick and what their limitations are in a way simply reacting to someone else using them will not.

That being said, I have given my 160 match gauntlet of BP battles (and my previous matches using the chain) a fair amount more reflection. While I still strongly disagree with the assessment that there's anything "broken" about Baton Pass or that it's inherently a skill-less/prediction-less strategy, I do not believe my growing irritation with the team was simply due to team fatigue or repetition. A very different kind of realization was coming to me as I finished more and more difficult matchups- that the beginning turns influenced the rest of the match to an extreme degree.

To illustrate what I'm talking about, consider the following scenarios:

You're running a balanced offense team and you lead with Mega Venusaur. Your opponent sens in Pinsir, and expecting the Return, you try to switch in Thundurus. But lo and behold! Your opponent is running some gimmicky Pinsir set with Stone Edge! Your Thundurus gets wrecked on the switchin, but it's not the end of the world- you still can use checks like Talonflame or Scarf Landorus-T to easily revenge kill it or force it out. Yes, you're down a Pokemon, but you've effectively neutralized your opponent's momentum- you're on "even ground" in terms of sweeping capacity, as long as you make good predictions from that point forwards. You are put at a disadvantage, but it is possible to pull yourself back with a series of good plays.

Now consider a match where you lead with Choice Band Talonflame against Scolipede and predict a Zapdos switchin, and decide to use Flare Blitz. For whatever reason the Scolipede user decides to stay in and gets up an Iron Defense, allowing them to tank the hit and gather even more speed boosts. That one Iron Defense is the difference between Smeargle getting picked off by Bullet Punch or being able to pass off a Quiver Dance boost. That extra Quiver Dance means that their Zapdos can OHKO the Bisharp you try to send into it after a Charge. With the Bisharp gone, their Espeon can start setting up Calm Mind boosts easily, which in turn allows Vaporeon to sub up on special attacks and set up Acid Armor. All these defensive boosts means that their +6/+6 Sylveon can tank everything on your team and go for an end-game sweep.

All because you made one misplay the first turn which was ultimately the result of bad luck.

I am hesitant to use the term "luck" or "chance" here because predicting your opponent's moves is one of the key skills in Pokemon, and while the moves they make are inherently uncertain, they are most definitely not random. Pokemon is unique among many games in that it embraces various degrees of randomness, allowing players to take risky actions that have potentially higher rewards as long as they do not overly impact the opponent's ability to choose how much and what kind of risks they are willing to take. You can, for instance, bank on Ancientpower boosts on Togekiss to go for a sweep if you really wanted to- it would be a horribly unreliable strategy, but even if it did pay off, any decently prepared team should be able to check it- preventing "all in" strategies like this from having too much of a long term impact on how the game develops. You can use Chansey and Sableye as counters to Specs Keldeo if you like feel you have ungodly prediction skills, but this doesn't prevent the opponent from simply sending in another sweeper and continuing to bring down pressure. Players need to think beyond coin flips to consistently win matches- long term planning and evaluating which moves are the most efficient are also key elements of winning matches, and for many players that's what makes competitive Pokemon entertaining. That's why it's sometimes extremely frustrating to make use of a playstyle which is so heavily dependent on decision making which heavily depends on "coin flip" prediction scenarios early game and the blessing of the RNG.

The first 3 to 5 turns against- or as- a BP player, usually consisting of little more than educated guesswork, have more of an impact on the outcome of a match than any other playstyle I have ever seen. By that same token, one missed attack, meant to catch a BP user off guard, has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. One crit against a BP chain before they can comfortably keep up subs has more of an impact than any other playstyle I have ever seen. Anyone who has ever used a BP chain thoroughly should be able to attest to this. Hell, I'll admit to winning matches against players who otherwise played extremely well simply because I happened to make the right predictions/got lucky during those first few turns:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128414511
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-128235455

From my experience on the ladder, I do not think that Baton Pass is in any way overpowered. I feel like I used it to a decent amount of proficiency and managed to defeat- and lose to- teams of top OU threats by skilled players to a fairly even degree. I would go as far as to say that a top tier offensive OU core, played well, has a significant advantage against BP chains- without excellent prediction and constant scouting, BP walls simply can't keep up with the continual offensive onslaught. What is heavily problematic, however, is the extent Baton Pass forces opponents to depend heavily both on luck and "gut instinct" early game to win matches, whether they want to or not. There is NO WAY to play "completely safe" during those initial stages against a Baton Pass user, even with gimmick sets. These early game turns are so frustrating and difficult to control both for the Baton Pass user and the opponent that "uncompetitive" is about the only word which adequately describes them. Is this justification for a nerf? Perhaps, but not for the reasons being listed throughout this thread.

Actually, I not only tested Full BP on the regular ladder (The suspect ladder doesn't give a very accurate representation of the meta) but I tested it with 5, 4 and 3 members to be sure what others said was reasonable. Trust me when I say, my opinion on it is pretty well informed. Nobody on this thread has ever argued that the first 5 turns are not harsh on the BP user but that's only if the team the opponents using brings counters. Like you said, BP forces the opponent to make risky plays early game to have a hope of winning, the rest of the 30-40 turn match is either hoping for a miracle crit or the opponent accidentally leaves the computer and runs out of time. One of the things you said here that really strikes me as odd is the fact that you always mention "predicting" the BP users move, in what universe can you do so? In case you've forgot, BP always gives switch initiative and even though its really obvious whats going to happen, you really don't have any way of double switching and switching up moves often won't do enough to actually punish their switch. Bringing is your haze user is still risky and many of them cannot deal with an attack from Sylveon, Espeon or Zapdos. I still hold firm on what I said before, BP allows a mediocre player to beat a skilled one by virtue of its formulaic nature and, like you said, the only time a change to that can be made is within the first 5 turns. You summed it perfectly, the only possible way to describe a match between BP and a more orthodox team is "uncompetitive". BP is so matchup reliant its not funny and destroys anything that doesn't pack a dedicated counter, with HO standing the best and only chance if it doesn't.

Hello 100th post

 

[WebBowser]

Just to make sure that I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that Scolipede, by itself, is broken solely due to its ability to, in your opinon, practically guarantee that a recipient Pokemon gets at least +1 Speed and potentially +2 Defense, correct?

This is most of my argument for Scolipede being broken, yes. The rest of the argument has to do with the fact that in many (though by no means all) situations, Scolipede can accomplish this while receiving little to no damage, meaning he can come back and do so again.

Most teams are capable with dealing with an otherwise "unstoppable" sweeper once, via things like super bulky phasers, red card, trickscarf (sometimes), and focus sash mons like greninja. Very few teams can deal with it twice though.

The fact that scolipede is in fact capable of quick passing multiple times in a match separates it from every other quick passer in the game, whether it be volbeat, gorebyss, venomoth, or smeargle.

And that, combined with your summery, are the reasons why I believe Scolipede alone to be broken, without the support of a full BP team.

 

[Srn]

fair enough, but like i said why are you even sending in weak attackers in at all vs bp.

And by weak i mean attackers that vap can handle.

no clue on how common it actually is, but loosing roar imo is generally not worth it.

But you still cannot rule out such a possibility, and losing your lando really is generally not worth it either.

your making 50% sound horrible, not ideal, but not that bad.

This is pokemon. If people stay away from 80 accuracy, then yes, 50% is pretty fucking bad.

Just send in a grass type, mandibuzz, or something with little offensive presence. Then you don't have to fear spore again

"With little offensive presence." This means you just gave up momentum essentially. It's an exchange of cutting of an escape route for baton pass in return for losing momentum, and sometimes that works out for you, sometimes it does not.

Still if you predict right, you will probably win. Also seed breaks subs and sash. SD Loom a huge threat.

Prediction is a decent-ish argument, but predicting repeated 50/50s and expecting to win consistently is highly unrealistic. Bullet Seed is unreliable AF, and SD sets are just scoli set up fodder. Scoli literally 4x resists both of your stabs how in the world is SD loom a threat lmao.

Not saying scouting suck, but you don't "spam" bp. You use it when need to, but not really spam it

Ofc i didn't actually mean spam baton pass lol, just use it frequently.

Thing is i'm not locked into trick as you have my scarf now. Then i'm free to attack while you baton pass out. Losing ingrain, spore, and quiver dance can prove quite fatal some matches.

You're not really "free to attack" since rotom-w isn't really that strong. You should be volt switching out on whatever smeargle baton passes into having taken the burden of scarf and gaining momentum. So yeah, rotom-w is pretty annoying to baton pass the first time around, its basically a hindrance after you've tricked your scarf away though.

 

[Red Cat]

Well, this is going to come to a close soon, so I'll just go over some of the facts and myths which I have seen posted in this thread:

Facts:

• You cannot beat Baton Pass if you don't have a "counter" to the team (barring a lucky crit).
• Stops to Baton Pass are not always easy to fit onto a team.
• Games against Baton Pass teams are usually decided within the first few turns.

Myths:

• Baton Pass teams take no skill to use.
• All ways to stop Baton Pass teams are otherwise unviable in OU.
• You have to be lucky to beat a Baton Pass team.
• We should nerf Baton Pass because it is not fun to play against.
• Baton Pass is not the way the game is meant to be played (who gets to decide this?).

I respect those who have made intelligent arguments saying that Baton Pass needs to be nerfed based on the facts I listed. Baton Pass is definitely a borderline playstyle as to whether it should be allowed to remain in OU in its current form. Whether the facts about Baton Pass are enough to justify a nerf is now for the voters to decide. I hope most of the voters don't believe the myths I listed and don't vote based on personal bias (the not fun to play against and not the way it's meant to be played are very anti-competitive reasons).

If you are choosing between Options 2 and 3, go for 2. There is not enough evidence to prove that Scolipede quick passing Speed boosts is unhealthy for the meta. Most of the posts supporting Option 3 have come from the "Kill BP!" or "BP is gay / retarded / cancer / insert stupid adjective here" crowd who really don't have competitive reasoning to back it up.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

But you still cannot rule out such a possibility, and losing your lando really is generally not worth it either.

Generally when i'm facing dEnIsSsS team I already know the set (usually i can tell because the pokes names are the same and i usually infer it is imported, this makes like somewhat easier.

This is pokemon. If people stay away from 80 accuracy, then yes, 50% is pretty fucking bad.

fair enough not say breloom is a perfect counter but something that works 50 of the time is not bad.

"With little offensive presence." This means you just gave up momentum essentially. It's an exchange of cutting of an escape route for baton pass in return for losing momentum, and sometimes that works out for you, sometimes it does not.

Well if it is between having your main baton pass counter getting spored or having them fail to spore a grass type or losing a non scarf rotomW or other such pokemon i'd rather lose the rotomW


Prediction is a decent-ish argument, but predicting repeated 50/50s and expecting to win consistently is highly unrealistic. Bullet Seed is unreliable AF, and SD sets are just scoli set up fodder. Scoli literally 4x resists both of your stabs how in the world is SD loom a threat lmao.

I prefer a set withholding mach punch for rock tomb. SD on protect turns.

Ofc i didn't actually mean spam baton pass lol, just use it frequently.


You're not really "free to attack" since rotom-w isn't really that strong. You should be volt switching out on whatever smeargle baton passes into having taken the burden of scarf and gaining momentum. So yeah, rotom-w is pretty annoying to baton pass the first time around, its basically a hindrance after you've tricked your scarf away though.

Not necessarily just rotomW but any trick scarfer. EX. Latios. Yes with rotomW volt switching is generally best option with trick you have: Held them to one speed boost. Heck if you run speed you can even outspeed scolipede at +1 and force them the scarf or make them actually switch this way preventing any boosts. Taken out a member of their team. Use volt switch for a little damage and get a preferable match up. After that rotom-W is usually useless, but it fulfilled its purpose. Also I remember I won one game this way by having the sash to tank a stored power than koing a weakened espeon with hydropump.

responses in bold

 

[WebBowser]

If you are choosing between Options 2 and 3, go for 2. There is not enough evidence to prove that Scolipede quick passing Speed boosts is unhealthy for the meta. Most of the posts supporting Option 3 have come from the "Kill BP!" or "BP is gay / retarded / cancer / insert stupid adjective here" crowd who really don't have competitive reasoning to back it up.

Errrr..... I'm pretty sure I am not part of the Kill BP crowd and that I have provided a fair bit of evidence that quick pass Scolipede is indeed a problem. Is there something in particular you would like me to demonstrate? I have some really good replays on this thread and I can repost them. I also have an in depth analysis of Scolipede a couple of pages back.

On second thought, Imma just post an index for my own convenience.

Basic arguement: look at the last page, I posted a pretty good summery over two or three posts there.

Super In Depth Scolipede Analysis: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...und-3-baton-pass.3507765/page-13#post-5497554

Replays:

*Scolipede setting up on stuff I feel he shouldn't be able to*

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125531059

just to show that scoli > mindless fly spam

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124004135

I vaguely recall CB terrakion being the standard that all phys walls are measured against. Does that make scolipede the best phys wall in the game? As I just used it as total setup bait.

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Rock Slide vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 156-186 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

Also, espeon tanking that crit and still coming back to sweep was pretty impressive.

*1 misplay = unstoppable sweep*

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124014789

Yet another replay showing how friggen fast a quick pass can get out of hand, all due to a misplay at turn 1 (dude went for SR instead of swapping to his obligatory scolipede counter)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124224420

Me VS. AJ, showing how a single misplay can lead to an easy sweep.

*Me misplaying all game long and then winning because Scolipede got that free turn*

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-123968261

"Oh hey, I have talonflame so I win, right?" Nope, despite having talonflame and me losing 3 mons to it, scolipede was still able to come in and setup multiple times, even 1v1ing a taunt megados

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125376926

got outplayed all game long, then got a lucky ohko with scoli which allowed me to setup exca for a sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124007727

Made so many mispredicts here it's not even funny. Still managed to pull off an espeon sweep thanks to my barely alive scolipede.

So in brief, I have three types of replays shown above. The first is showing Scolipede setting up on things I feel like he really should'nt be able to, like Terrakion and Staraptor. The second shows how 1 misplay on the opponent's part can lead to an unstoppable sweep, and the last kind shows me getting outplayed all game long, but because the opponent dared use a mon that scolipede can setup in front of to kill one of my mons, I get the one turn I needed to setup for a sweep. These are not replays against bad players. Many of these replays are against respected members of the community and/or people who topped the suspect ladder. Regardless, Scolipede has over and over again allowed me to triumph over players whom are clearly better then I am, just because they aren't packing a dedicated counter or didn't protect their dedicated counter hard enough.

If this doesn't constitute as competitive evidence, I don't know what does.

 

[Syberia]

I don't feel that Scolipede is the worst offender in terms of full Baton Pass chains. To me, that honor goes to Espeon, as it basically shuts down most ways of stopping the chain that would otherwise work with or without Scolipede being present (namely, phazing and Taunting). There's a reason BP teams were laughed at in 3rd and 4th generation, and it was the ease with which they were stopped. Given the vastly different metagame last generation, with hard hitting weather offense everywhere, it would be hard to compare BP with and without Speed Boost Scolipede, but my gut still tells me Espeon is the bigger issue, given its "you can't stop me" nature.

I am going to be voting option 2 or 3, as I firmly believe Baton Pass is bad for this metagame almost in the same way Swagplay was (but not quite, as Swagplay was almost entirely luck-based) in that it is something so different from every other playstyle that a team must carry one of a few dedicated counters for it. Even if a select few like Thundurus, Sableye, or Mega Gyarados are decent Pokemon otherwise, being forced to run them, often with specific movesets, on the off chance you will face a BP chain, is a recipe for overcentralization. I can't tell you how many times I saw this happen on the suspect ladder; I felt like I was playing the same team over and over even though the opponent was different.

I'm still undecided on which option to actually choose, though. I am almost convinced that #3 is the way to go, as it seems to get at the heart of the issue the most. #2, on the other hand, still allows for the "quick pass" type of team referenced above, while at the same time, if this type of team becomes a problem, if option 2 is chosen, we might then need to look at suspecting Scolipede.

 

[Electricstorm252]

I am finally going to put my 2 cents in.
I believe that #2 is the best way to go to nerf baton pass. Option 2 nerfs baton pass, but doesn't totally kill it. Limiting it to 3 pokes puts much more pressure of the baton user, and makes getting boost and resisting threats to the chain. The other 3 will most likely be either sweepers or back-up. Option 3 doesn't do much, if anything to stop baton pass. Ingrain can work as anti-phaze, while it is out-classed now for being hard to set up, it can still work and allows all members to be immune to phaze. As for Scolipede, the afore mentioned Zapdos and Ninjask work, the former just has to set up and the latter is frail, but it is doable.
A lot of people who are voting for #3 say its mostly about Scolipede. Quick pass is a strategy, and one that in my opion isn't over-powered at all. If Scolipede needs to be banned, it will get it's own suspect. #3 will also ruin one of Espeon's viable sets (and lets be real, it doesn't have many and is falling out of practice)
That is my 2 cents however.

 

[Karxrida]

I am finally going to put my 2 cents in.
I believe that #2 is the best way to go to nerf baton pass. Option 2 nerfs baton pass, but doesn't totally kill it. Limiting it to 3 pokes puts much more pressure of the baton user, and makes getting boost and resisting threats to the chain. The other 3 will most likely be either sweepers or back-up. Option 3 doesn't do much, if anything to stop baton pass. Ingrain can work as anti-phaze, while it is out-classed now for being hard to set up, it can still work and allows all members to be immune to phaze. As for Scolipede, the afore mentioned Zapdos and Ninjask work, the former just has to set up and the latter is frail, but it is doable.
A lot of people who are voting for #3 say its mostly about Scolipede. Quick pass is a strategy, and one that in my opion isn't over-powered at all. If Scolipede needs to be banned, it will get it's own suspect. #3 will also ruin one of Espeon's viable sets (and lets be real, it doesn't have many and is falling out of practice)
That is my 2 cents however.

Espeon isn't actually good outside of full BP, as it is outclassed at everything it could possibly do otherwise and is shit at anti-hazards.

Also, the "collateral" from #3 is non-existent because the only Pokemon is affects, Scolipede, has a legitimate late-game cleaner set that is perfectly viable.