I honestly think its better than stuff like lucario and mew, but w/e, B- is just too fucking low for it.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Can you please explain what enormous amounts of support it requires?
All it really needs is a switch-in to talonflame (should be on every team regardless) and a pursuit sharp to help things a long with aegislash. Sure, having switch-ins to common priority users is nice too, but shouldn't that be on every team regardless? Besides, mega zam, with just 4 hp evs, survives every priority attack bar Sucker punch and brave bird, so its annoying but its not even that big of an issue. In my team, that's all the support I really used, and it worked out pretty well :S just some personal experience that doesn't matter.
The main problem I have with moving Mega Zam up is how unreliable Trace is; you have to pray your opponent leaves in something you can benefit Tracing and possibly survive a hit from them at the same time. Running Modest also means you get outsped by Greninja (and probably something else significant, can't check atm) before Mega Evolving. It doesn't help that Aegislash counters you if you don't run Shadow Ball while denying you an ability since Stance Change can't be Traced.
it doesnt need its ability to be reliable, and besides, what it normally megas on are walls/things that cant quite OHKO it
Alakazam: base 120 Speed pre-mega
Greninja: base 123 Speed
Greninja outspeeds regardless of nature.
Could of sworn Zam was base 125.
Just checked that you Speed tie with positive base 105s (Mega Pinsir and normal Manectric) if you are running Modest, meaning to have to gamble against things normal Zam could force out like Terrakion or Keldeo.
pre mega shouldnt stay in on terrakion anyways, it might be scarfed.
"barely avoids"
yup esp when skarm isn't avoiding 2hkos at all
consult earlier CB terrak calcs
skarm is also pretty huge taunt bait where as sdef hippo:
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 148-176 (44.3 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(struggles if counter set which is the only reliable set rn due to needing to check mmaw and sharp)
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 145-171 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 98% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 169-201 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
yeah thats correct, it has around 1.3x special bulk than skarm and around 1.1x more physical bulk. sure pure ground isn't such a great type but it's very good vs most physical attackers due to amazing raw bulk and inability to be set up on.
If the opponent predict a mega-evolution to Mega-Alakazam, he can switch out the currently in battle Pokemon with the useful ability and send in a pokemon with a useless ability for you to trace. Mega-Alakazam is a great late game cleaner alright though. Trace may be unreliable but the great Special attack and Speed are too good to give up. Poor Alakazam only got a 95 BST increase.
He actually got a BST increase of 90 from normal -> mega, but normal Zam got a stat upped by 10 in Gen 6 (can't remember which, SpDef maybe?)
Also saying they can send in something "with a useless ability" is kind of silly since it also needs to be able to, you know, beat Mega Zam. It's also not dependent on Trace to kill stuff, it's just a strong bonus
well mega zam loves keldeo, needs pursuit support, talon switch in ect. so if playing with mega zm, the team is generally built around it. Im not saying its bad, its great and should move up to B but i think B+ is a bit too high.
i also never said enormous amount of support
It doesn't need a lot of support.
And why does it love keldeo again? Would you care to explain ?_?
I mean, atleast skarm has some decent speed to where it can taunt/roost before some opponents, hippo does not have that luxury at all. It must avoid the 2hko from all enemies in order to actually do its job. On the other hand, say, skarm vs mega maw, skarm can run enough speed to outpace it, switch in, and not need to worry about getting 2hko'd too often because its faster and can roost. This was the point i was trying to make; along with lack of resistances :/
some calcs of it barely avoiding 2hkos from some important moves: (using 240 hp/196 def/72 sdef, can take aegis n other stuff while retaining most physical bulk imo best spread for physically defensive hippo)
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 196+ Def Hippowdon: 186-220 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- 24.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 72 SpD Hippowdon: 190-225 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 196+ Def Hippowdon: 193-228 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 196+ Def Hippowdon: 195-231 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 240 HP / 196+ Def Hippowdon: 166-196 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So to even counter every one of these notable physical threats you have to be at full hp and have a little luck on teh damage rolls too :/
Hippo actually does hit somewhat ok with eq tho gonna agree on that.
Bisharp.
Scolipede is actually looking pretty good, especially now that BP is nerfed and its no longer expecting to run into priority leads in 90% of good teams now. It might just end up rising in viability, I can see it moving up to A- now that people will actually start making use of its attack stat now (and it's no longer forced to run Mental Herb)
Let's talk about what Scolipede's viable sets now (post-BP)
1. 3-man BP lead - the set that got people talking about banning Scolipede to ubers. With a Mental Herb, Protect, Substitute, Iron Defense, Baton Pass, and full HP+Speed investment, it's nearly guaranteed to pass at least +1 Speed, +2 Def, and possibly a Substitute to one of its teammates. It can even come in midgame (even if Rocks are up) to restart the chain, as it's pretty adept at avoiding damage. However this set tends to do poorly when you mispredict/are outpredicted and take a powerful hit. It's also vulnerable to Taunters once the Mental Herb is used up. Still, possibly the best set on BP that is usable outside of BP.
2. Spiker/Toxic Spiker - this set preys upon Deoxys-D/Deoxys-S sets. You'll need to invest its HP (or use a Focus Sash) to survive a possible counter attack from Deoxys, but with enough Attack EVs you can go and stop Deoxys from laying down more than one layer of hazards by firing a Megahorn at it. You can even set-up a Swords Dance in Deoxys's face as it switches out to a Scolipede counter, and BP to you Scoli-counter-counter. This is not for the faint-hearted, as this thrives on mind games and poker reading, but it's a great way to have hazards on an Offensive team without losing momentum.
3. QuickPasser - Swords Dance, Protect, Baton Pass, Megahorn. You come in on something that can't hurt you, such as defensive mons whose main damage is via Toxic, set-up a Swords Dance, and either fire a boosted Megahorn or pass on your Speed+Attack boost to one of your slow offensive mons. This works best with mons that are extremely threatening with a couple of speed/attack boosts, such as CharX, M-Gyara, Ttar, etc, as it is practically a Dragon Dance for them.
4. LO Attacker - Swords Dance, Megahorn, Protect, Poison Jab, Earthquake. You can run BP here over either Protect, Poison Jab, or Earthquake to quickpass to one of your counters rather than deal with it yourself. This is especially threatening mid- to late-game once the mons that can counter Scoli are gone, and it's a pretty decent revenge killer too since it can catch-up to set-up sweepers.
I think the best part of Scoli is that instead of distinct sets, it's more of a spectrum. The 3-man BP lead is the one that is the most distinct, since its set-up is so radically different compared to the others, but nothing's stopping you from running Baton Pass on the Spiker or LO Attacker, or running more attacks on the quick passer, or tweaking the EVs of the sets to survive specific hits or to aim for specific KOs. Aside from Sylveon, Scoli is actually one of the BP mons that could benefit from BP getting nerfed since it gets shut down so hard by all the BP countermeasures (see: Taunt, Priority Flying, Priority status).
Let's talk about what Scolipede's viable sets now (post-BP)
1. 3-man BP lead - the set that got people talking about banning Scolipede to ubers. With a Mental Herb, Protect, Substitute, Iron Defense, Baton Pass, and full HP+Speed investment, it's nearly guaranteed to pass at least +1 Speed, +2 Def, and possibly a Substitute to one of its teammates. It can even come in midgame (even if Rocks are up) to restart the chain, as it's pretty adept at avoiding damage. However this set tends to do poorly when you mispredict/are outpredicted and take a powerful hit. It's also vulnerable to Taunters once the Mental Herb is used up. Still, possibly the best set on BP that is usable outside of BP.
2. Spiker/Toxic Spiker - this set preys upon Deoxys-D/Deoxys-S sets. You'll need to invest its HP (or use a Focus Sash) to survive a possible counter attack from Deoxys, but with enough Attack EVs you can go and stop Deoxys from laying down more than one layer of hazards by firing a Megahorn at it. You can even set-up a Swords Dance in Deoxys's face as it switches out to a Scolipede counter, and BP to you Scoli-counter-counter. This is not for the faint-hearted, as this thrives on mind games and poker reading, but it's a great way to have hazards on an Offensive team without losing momentum.
3. QuickPasser - Swords Dance, Protect, Baton Pass, Megahorn. You come in on something that can't hurt you, such as defensive mons whose main damage is via Toxic, set-up a Swords Dance, and either fire a boosted Megahorn or pass on your Speed+Attack boost to one of your slow offensive mons. This works best with mons that are extremely threatening with a couple of speed/attack boosts, such as CharX, M-Gyara, Ttar, etc, as it is practically a Dragon Dance for them.
4. LO Attacker - Swords Dance, Megahorn, Protect, Poison Jab, Earthquake. You can run BP here over either Protect, Poison Jab, or Earthquake to quickpass to one of your counters rather than deal with it yourself. This is especially threatening mid- to late-game once the mons that can counter Scoli are gone, and it's a pretty decent revenge killer too since it can catch-up to set-up sweepers.
I think the best part of Scoli is that instead of distinct sets, it's more of a spectrum. The 3-man BP lead is the one that is the most distinct, since its set-up is so radically different compared to the others, but nothing's stopping you from running Baton Pass on the Spiker or LO Attacker, or running more attacks on the quick passer, or tweaking the EVs of the sets to survive specific hits or to aim for specific KOs. Aside from Sylveon, Scoli is actually one of the BP mons that could benefit from BP getting nerfed since it gets shut down so hard by all the BP countermeasures (see: Taunt, Priority Flying, Priority status).
sorry for the wait, threads up
tagging alexwolf to make sure I made all the changes and so he can lock Gary's thread.
tagging alexwolf to make sure I made all the changes and so he can lock Gary's thread.
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Reposting Mandibuzz for A because no one responded and it's very relevant:
I would also like to nominate Heatran to move back up to A+. I really don't know why people give Heatran so much flack; it's a damn good Pokemon. It can reliably deal with the likes of Latios (barring random EQ), Talonflame, and much more. Here I would like to bring up the Choice Scarf set, which is really underrated and effective. It OHKOes Landorus after SR, does 60ish to Greninja, does 40ish to Keldeo, 2HKOes Latios after SR with Flash Cannon, 2HKOes Mega Tyranitar with Flash Cannon...Earth Power does ~75% to bulky DD Char X, it OHKOes Talonflame and Zard Y with Stone Edge, and more. It puts in work every match, extremely difficult to switch into, for example non-AV Azu is 2HKOed after SR, and even CB Aqua Jet doesn't KO. If you look at from a purely revenge killing perspective, then it isn't good, but Scarfers in this range are more nukes rather than actual revenge killers, which is mostly better left to the Ground Scarfers and Deo-S. This is not even to mention specially defensive, which is very effective in its own right, a reliable SR setter that is basically impossible to keep SR off with the typical defensive Defoggers (Skarm mainly, also Mandi and Zapdos to some extent) and has access to all kinds of moves like a STAB that is actually decently threatening off of a huge Special Attack and has a 30% chance to burn, Toxic, Taunt, Roar... There's also SubToxic which is a really good win con vs stall and pain in the ass for so many teams to deal with. All in all I'd like to see Heatran back in A+.
I would also like to nominate Heatran to move back up to A+. I really don't know why people give Heatran so much flack; it's a damn good Pokemon. It can reliably deal with the likes of Latios (barring random EQ), Talonflame, and much more. Here I would like to bring up the Choice Scarf set, which is really underrated and effective. It OHKOes Landorus after SR, does 60ish to Greninja, does 40ish to Keldeo, 2HKOes Latios after SR with Flash Cannon, 2HKOes Mega Tyranitar with Flash Cannon...Earth Power does ~75% to bulky DD Char X, it OHKOes Talonflame and Zard Y with Stone Edge, and more. It puts in work every match, extremely difficult to switch into, for example non-AV Azu is 2HKOed after SR, and even CB Aqua Jet doesn't KO. If you look at from a purely revenge killing perspective, then it isn't good, but Scarfers in this range are more nukes rather than actual revenge killers, which is mostly better left to the Ground Scarfers and Deo-S. This is not even to mention specially defensive, which is very effective in its own right, a reliable SR setter that is basically impossible to keep SR off with the typical defensive Defoggers (Skarm mainly, also Mandi and Zapdos to some extent) and has access to all kinds of moves like a STAB that is actually decently threatening off of a huge Special Attack and has a 30% chance to burn, Toxic, Taunt, Roar... There's also SubToxic which is a really good win con vs stall and pain in the ass for so many teams to deal with. All in all I'd like to see Heatran back in A+.
its @ username (no spacerino)
I literally just made a post about mime LOL
Going to post here as this thread gets more play. How do you all feel about ranking the Pokemon within their tier (Zard X is more viable than Landorus, etc)? It will cause more discussion and new points of view might be revealed. Plus it will help in becoming even more accurate than just alpha order.
correct
Man, but I don't want Mega Pinsir Sweeperella to be the bukakke mon of the A+ Tier. Shit, can we bump Charizard Y back up? Lol just kidding yall.
Anyway, I think that would be cool, Nog. But all it's going to do is make new players ignore everything in each tier that isn't in spots 1-3. But yeah, it would definitely incite more discussion and it would really organize the mons by viability.
Go for it dude.
Anyway, I think that would be cool, Nog. But all it's going to do is make new players ignore everything in each tier that isn't in spots 1-3. But yeah, it would definitely incite more discussion and it would really organize the mons by viability.
Go for it dude.
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