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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Yes, except your numbering is wrong :] should be Mega Charizard X / Aegislash, Thundurus, Deoxys-Defense / Deoxys-Speed, Landorus but we can worry about specifics once I know for sure we will or will not be doing this.
I'm new, so feel free to shoot me down.
I think ordering Pokemon by viability in rank is a bad idea. The ranks are already contentious enough as is: the debate over Charizard-Y has seemingly taken up dozens of pages on its own, and he's moved all of, what, 2/3rds of a letter grade? In the higher tiers, viability ranking might make sense, but as we get past the A ranks, we start to deal with niche Pokemon with wildly different roles. It'll be waaaaaaaaaay to hard to get a truly accurate read on where some mons should go. The +'s and -'s break the ranking into manageable enough chunks that provoke plenty of discussion as is. If viability ranking goes further, there'd be more discussion, but less consensus.
I think ordering Pokemon by viability in rank is a bad idea. The ranks are already contentious enough as is: the debate over Charizard-Y has seemingly taken up dozens of pages on its own, and he's moved all of, what, 2/3rds of a letter grade? In the higher tiers, viability ranking might make sense, but as we get past the A ranks, we start to deal with niche Pokemon with wildly different roles. It'll be waaaaaaaaaay to hard to get a truly accurate read on where some mons should go. The +'s and -'s break the ranking into manageable enough chunks that provoke plenty of discussion as is. If viability ranking goes further, there'd be more discussion, but less consensus.
I see where you're coming from. Ranks are a somewhat shallow means of understanding the metagame standalone. But a viability ranking thread still serves the purpose of showing on that superficial level where a metagame is at, which is useful for new players as well as veterans who have perhaps not played for a few months. On top of that, it's simply interesting and fun to see how the ranks shift around over the course of a metagame and to see its evolution, as well as debate and discuss with others :)
I'd like to nominate Suicune to move up to B+/A-. Cune is an amazing pokemon this gen as the meta has slowed down, giving it more time to set up calm minds, phase or even set screens (although it's probably outclassed in this role). Suicune's bulk and sweeping potential make it a very good endgame for stall teams and balance. Suicune is one of the bulkiest water types, and although it doesn't have reliable recovery resttalk is good enough for a pokemon with that much bulk, especially when combined with a wishpasser. Suicune provides an almost instant win against stall teams that lack Zapdos or Ampharos, and Suicune isn't dead weight against balance and offense, providing a very solid switch into many top threats, including Talonflame, Azumarill, Excadrill, scarf chomp, Tyranitar, scarf tran, Landorus-T and Scizor. It can also force keldeo out and get a free calm mind/fish for scald burns on the switch in. Suicune's place in the meta as a very bulky water who can sweep defensive teams is unique except Manaphy, but I believe suicune has it's own niche given it's greater bulk and also possessing the ability to phaze for a more "pure" wall to be used with wish support. All Suicune really needs for support is a switch in to electric types and a way to beat venusaur. It isn't a main physical wall, but can be used as a backup check to many of the tier's physical attackers, and again provides a solid win condition against bulkier teams.
I don't think such a level of sub-division is necessary. The original purpose of the thread is to give new/inexperienced users a general threatlist and things they should plan for (and use) when making a team. "Mega Mawile is A+" -- this is informative; Mega Mawile is a very good mon, one of the best in the tier but it has a few flaws that keep it from being wholly meta-defining. "Mega Mawile and Greninja are both A+, however Mega Mawile is slightly better" -- what exactly does that tell you? They're both really good. They're both something you should prepare for, and both have flaws that are mostly eclipsed by how good they are. Furthermore, they function entirely differently.
That's another thing. I also think you'd run into problems when comparing pokemon that are drastically different. Ferrothorn or Dragonite: who's better?
I just don't think it would be helpful, and I think it would be more trouble than its worth.
That's another thing. I also think you'd run into problems when comparing pokemon that are drastically different. Ferrothorn or Dragonite: who's better?
I just don't think it would be helpful, and I think it would be more trouble than its worth.
No no no, I'm not disputing the value of the viability thread as a whole! I like this a lot, I'm just arguing against the idea of ranking by individual pokemon instead of bulk grades.
The ranks are well defined, at least to some degree. But within a rank, orderings will make very little sense, because there is too much disparity of purpose. What's better: Tangrowth or Salamence? They are both C rank because they both are viable and have a niche and both are generally outclassed. But their purpose is so different as to make it meaningless to say which is "better".
It's a fairly solid check/counter to Water-types, such as Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Azumarill, and Quagsire, it has Heal Bell and Healing Wish for good support options, and it has some variety with its sets, such as specially defensive sets and offensive Nasty Plot sets.
Every offensive mon can sweep once its checks/counters are gone/weakened, why do i need scolipede for that? Especially considering that he cant fill any other role.
Actually he is argued for A- and Talonflame was argued to move to A only a few pages ago so I do think that the comparison here is adequat. Ohkoing Deo-D is a nice feat but not that important, especially not for a late game cleaner (Deo-D is usually dead lategame) and the lead set doesnt do much else aside from beating Deo-D as it cant set up rocks and spikes/toxic spikes are useless unless you run HO where you will always go for Deo-D/S yourself instead of scoli. Talonflame is by no means countered by Tyranitar, CB Sets run U-turn which hurts Ttar alot and other sets often have wow to cripple it. Deo-S LO set usually carries Knock Off, however its still checked by Aegi as it fails to 2hko. Anyway just because there are 2 pokemon that somewhat check Talon/Deo and not scoli it doesnt mean that he is worth using.
Question is can it afford to run it on the LO set without missing out on crucial coverage? Megahorn, EQ, Protect, if you go for Poison Jab your hard stopped by basicly every flying type if you go for Rockslide you cant touch fairys.
Ofc speed matters, but if I pick a poke for a single role i.e lategame cleaning I expect it to be very good at that, and beeing hard stopped by priority is a big letdown here. Talonflame/Deo-S can also act as revengekillers, lategame cleaning isnt even their primariy role, Scolipede cant realy do that as he has to wait for speed boost. And even if you try doing that via Protect, what can he stop anyway? Pinsir easily ohkoes with Quick Attack, Zard X can take adamant LO EQ and ohko with Dragon Claw, Dragonite has a good chance of ohkoing with Espeed at + 1, Gyara can get past him if he stays in base form, Azumarill walks all over him with Aqua Jet so what is he good for? And its not even like he is good at stoping Aegi as Shadowball does 80%+ to Scoli making it easy to finish it of with Shadow Sneak, with SR on the field Scoli is a ohko. Honestly aside from stoping (Mega) TTar I dont see much benefit in running Scoli and Deo-S can do that just as well along with common scarf users like Terra and Garchomp.
Just take a look at the S and A ranks and count the number of things you need gone before attempting a lategame sweep with Scoli, basicly the whole S Ranks, most of A+ (ttar and clefable have trouble with it), in the A ranks only Latios, Heatran and possibly Zard Y have trouble with it (the latter only against sets with Rock Slide), A- is a similar case. The number of things its good against is fairly small, will be very hard to get a late game sweep done with it with so many common things beeing able to put a hard stop to it.
If beating Deo-D and TTar makes a poke A- worthy we will have to adjust the rankings alot.
It does not? What does Scoli have over it then? Killing TTar? (if Megahorn hits that is). Talon has better stab coverage, hits harder, has priority, recovery, tons of utility options and better typing I hardly see any reason to ever run Scoli over it aside from "I want to run Scoli cuz its cool" and thats not a reason to move it up.
Obviously not as I consider it almost completely outclassed by a couple of other options and pretty much useless overall.
It does have its niche in form of quickpassing, no doubt about that, but that doesnt justify A- or even B+. B- at most.
Nog is there a reason you added Darmanitan to C+? Putting it in the same rank as Entei is a joke of bad taste imo. And when did Raikou get demoted to B-? And why? And wasnt Amoonguss supposed to be B+? I am a bit confused here.
Oh and Jukain regarding Mandibuzz, most of the things you mentioned that it stops actually beat it with SR on the field, especially if you invest in SpD for Lando, Exca, Talonflame, Garchomp all 2hko with rocks up, Pinsir at +2 ohkoes even full def Mandi after rocks, Zard X ohkoes mixed mandi after rocks with Flare Blitz, same for Dragonite and even with SpD investment Landos Focus Blast still 2hkoes after rocks. Beeing so limited with such a common field condition is too much of an issue to make it A imo.
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Not sure if that's a good idea, the ranks are already very subjective as they are, I don't think we would be able to objectively rank these pokemon. And re-ranking them as the metagame changed would be a nightmare.
Though, since people are posting their own ranks, mine would be this:
1- Aegislash
2- Charizard X
3- Landorus
4- Thundurus
5- Deoxys-D
6- Deoxys-S
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What I'm feeling is we already have fixed notions for what the following means: Hazard Lead, Revenge Killer, Set up Sweeper, Physical/Special/Mixed wall, etc.
It happens that within a rank (A+ for example) there are several pokemon whose main job is one of the above. A ranking for the best Revenge Killer within a rank would be great, or if you want an entire list all together, just an idea...
It happens that within a rank (A+ for example) there are several pokemon whose main job is one of the above. A ranking for the best Revenge Killer within a rank would be great, or if you want an entire list all together, just an idea...
I disagree with the whole sorting within the ranks. It'll clutter the thread even more than normal, and I think if we do eventually do this we should wait until we have all the ranks perfect. It also seems alot more subjective, because it's easy to tell that for example aegislash is better than tyranitar, and even that mawile is better than tyranitar, but between tyranitar and other similar a+ mons, how do you decide? Just a waste of effort imo. We'll probably end up arguing for pages about moving up one space on one 1/3 of a letter.
I don't think this will be such a good idea. If we go along with this, the actual ranking and re-ranking on mons will make this place a shitfest where discussion will only happen in the A-S tiers and it will rarely be good discussion, mostly back and forth preaching. There was a reason the - and + suffixes were added in the first place, to more specifically rank mons, don't make this thread more cluttered and specific than it needs to be.
Thank you all for the feedback. For now we will leave the rankings alphabetized in order to preserve this thread. My suggestion is mainly seen in lower gens because they have much less of a fluctuating meta whereas in XY OU things are constantly changing. We might test this later on in VR just to see how it goes, idk
Moved Mandibuzz to A
Mandibuzz is one of the best defensive and utility Pokemon in OU, not unlike Ferrothorn. It can check or counter 4/6 of the S rank, which is amazing on itself, while also being able to check a ton of Pokemon from A and B rank too. Add to this that Mandibuzz is one of the best, if not the best defensive Defog user, as it can beat most of the SR users one on one, such as Hippowdon, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Landorus, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Chansey, and Skarmory, making it one of the best support Pokemon to pair with offensive giants such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados. Finally, Taunt + Foul Play make it almost impossible to set up on and give it excellent utility against defensive teams too.
Moved Entei to B-
Sacred Fire + Extresmpeed from a good Attack stat and a decent Speed tier is good enough for B-, and Entei is definitely on the same league as its fellow Fire-types, Volcarna and Victini.
No opinion about the ''order by viability'' thing.
EDIT: After reading teddystali's post, the ordering by viability idea doesn't seem a good one. Too many practical difficulties to make this a worthwhile effort and would probably ignite tons of pages of people nitpicking about Pokemon they like.
Mandibuzz is one of the best defensive and utility Pokemon in OU, not unlike Ferrothorn. It can check or counter 4/6 of the S rank, which is amazing on itself, while also being able to check a ton of Pokemon from A and B rank too. Add to this that Mandibuzz is one of the best, if not the best defensive Defog user, as it can beat most of the SR users one on one, such as Hippowdon, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Landorus, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Chansey, and Skarmory, making it one of the best support Pokemon to pair with offensive giants such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados. Finally, Taunt + Foul Play make it almost impossible to set up on and give it excellent utility against defensive teams too.
Moved Entei to B-
Sacred Fire + Extresmpeed from a good Attack stat and a decent Speed tier is good enough for B-, and Entei is definitely on the same league as its fellow Fire-types, Volcarna and Victini.
No opinion about the ''order by viability'' thing.
EDIT: After reading teddystali's post, the ordering by viability idea doesn't seem a good one. Too many practical difficulties to make this a worthwhile effort and would probably ignite tons of pages of people nitpicking about Pokemon they like.
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Bro, you forgot to move megazam up to B or B+. It doesnt die to every priority attack that exists, and with a stellar base 150 speed, it can run a modest nature and outspeed the entire unboosted metagame sans megaman and deo-s. With a modest nature and a HUGE base 175 special attack, it just hits BRUTALLY. and with its ability trace, it might trace protean, sheer force, or some other useful ability and just shit all over the tier. it doesnt even need to trace a good ability! as long as it has speed and power, it can do a number on any team. literally all the support it needs is a talonflame switch-in(should be on every team), a pursuit user, and a decent fighting type. and its just way better than things like mega ampharos and mega absol, and it is more comparable to or better than things like lucario and amoonguss. just get the cereal killer out of B-, pls.
Thundy, Greninja, Starmie, Raikou, and anything else above a base 105 speed outspeeds him when hes modest...
i meant mega alakazam, you obviously dont mega evolve on something with offensive presence or something above base 105 speed
150 base speed with modest is 399 speed.
105 base speed with +speed nature is 339 speed.
132 base speed with +speed nature is 399 speed.
Not sure where you got the "base 105 outspeeds" from, he speed ties base 132s.
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