Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[the-bumper-car]

Nope, Scolipede (and to a lesser extent, Deoxys-S) commands the new 3-Baton Pass User (3BP) team archetype. Espeon and Smeargle are literally only being used because 3BP is forced to run them. They suck, even in the context of 3BP, but there is no alternative at the moment. Espeon does not have a place in OU outside of BP, unlike Scolipede, Deoxys-S, and Smeargle.

 

[Kyuzeth]

To go along with the-bumper-car's post, I wish to advocate Scolipede for A-. Scolipede is, as previously stated, a staple in the Baton Pass playstyle, even now in the three-Pokémon limit. Not only does it work really well as a Baton Passer, but Scolipede can even function as a Spiker or a LO attacker that packs a serious punch. With a few Speed Boosts and a Swords Dance under its belt, only Skarmory and Talonflame are able to put a full stop to it. The centipede is not without its drawbacks, however, as the aforementioned Talonflame has Gale Wings Brave Bird to make Scolipede's life miserable. Skarmory poses a problem as well: although BP and Spikes variants can easily get outta there thanks to Baton Pass, Offensive can't break through the iron bird at all. That aside, Scolipede is definitely versatile and strong enough to stand out from the rest of B+. Scolipede for A-.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Oh please don't be that guy, it has been proven times and times again that BP is not a mindless boosting just for fun playstyle and that it actually requires prediction and knowledge of the different sets each OU threat can run.If BP was as mindless as you seem to believe then Denissss wouldn't be the only BP player to reach top ladder.

No one else wants to reach the top of ps with baton pass. This is due to
A) constant laddering with a boring playstyle is required
B) lack of self respect to use baton pass in the first place
C) its the ps ladder and no one else apart from costa really cares / cared about being at the top

Baton pass requires less skill than any other playstyle. Most good players would rather ladder using skill than having matches decided at team preview.

 

[DaKakz]

No one else wants to reach the top of ps with baton pass. This is due to
A) constant laddering with a boring playstyle is required
B) lack of self respect to use baton pass in the first place
C) its the ps ladder and no one else apart from costa really cares / cared about being at the top

Baton pass requires less skill than any other playstyle. Most good players would rather ladder using skill than having matches decided at team preview.

This I agree with, BP requires less skill but not to the point where it is portrayed as mindless and the BP player certainly doesn't just think "hmm what stat do I want to boost next" in order to win like most people seem to think, especially on this offensive metagame where almost any team will keep you on your toes.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Scolipede is as important as Espeon, Scolipede passes defense and speed but his and the entire team's work would go to waste if there was no Espeon to bounce back roars and break through HazeQuag.

They both are vital for the team. :]

Nobody's disputing the importance of Espeon. What we're talking about is that Espeon is a terrible pokemon that BP would gladly swap out for any other Magic Bounce + Baton Pass mon that doesn't need a turn to MegaVolve up. And outside of BP, Espeon has no other possible roles in OU that aren't horribly outclassed by much much more powerful and versatile mons. I know some people were talking about its Screener set, but I can't imagine why you'd run that when Deoxys-S is still in the tier.

 

[DaKakz]

Nobody's disputing the importance of Espeon. What we're talking about is that Espeon is a terrible pokemon that BP would gladly swap out for any other Magic Bounce + Baton Pass mon that doesn't need a turn to MegaVolve up. And outside of BP, Espeon has no other possible roles in OU that aren't horribly outclassed by much much more powerful and versatile mons. I know some people were talking about its Screener set, but I can't imagine why you'd run that when Deoxys-S is still in the tier.

If you are talking about Mega Absol "outclassing" Espeon on BP then you are wrong, Absol doesn't have Stored Power thus it cannot break HazeQuag like Espeon does.

And of course Espeon is shit outside of BP, it's its main territory, it is here where it shines, Baton Pass is its playstyle... saying it sucks outside of it is like saying Kabutops sucks outside of rain and the answer to that is OF COURSE it does, that's the point.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Espeon honestly does deserve A rank if we follow the context of the viability rankings. Its commanding and entire successfull playstyle and that's all there is to it. I really don't understand the whole it sucks outside BP, since tons of other things are bad outside their roles. You don't see someone trying to move chansey down because it sucks on HO do you? And the whole baton pass being a gimmick is completely biased and needs to stop I'm honestly ashamed to keep hearing that. It's a VERY successful playstyle that requires prediction and knowledge. Like seriously, who gives a flying fuck if it's boring or loses self respect tiering wise (No offense frens) but srsly at this point not tiering espeon higher is just mostly bias at this point

 

[alexwolf]

Really? I thought defensive Volcarona was the norm, at least it was back in gen 5. Any particular reason why it is bad?

Because a ton of Pokemon resist Volcarona's STABs and you just can't cover them with only two attacking moves and no SpA investment. Azumarill, Mega Charizard X, Unaware Clefable, and Talonflame are all prominent threats that weren't present in 5th gen's OU and all counter bulky Rona easily. At least offensive Volcarona can use the appropriate coverage move to take them down (Hidden Power Rock or Giga Drain), 2HKO Clefable with Fire Blast as it switches in, and even protect against Azumarill's Aqua Jet with Passco Berry.

 

[Rhaegar]

Espeon is not only needed in a 3 member chain for Magic Bounce and Stored Power, but mainly as a SpDef booster. Smeargle can only QD once before being brought to it's sash and it can't even do that much if the opponent manages to set rocks somehow (or easily, as in the case of leads like Mamoswine).

 

[Tyrant laharl]

1. It's not a playstyle, it's a team.
2. Is this about espeon or BP?
3. A rank is for pokemon that don't require much team support, not pokemon that need an Iron Defense boost to end up doing anything other than decorating the floor.

1. Same difference
2. Its about espeon and how important it is to BP
3. Mega charizard Y needs literal HUGE amounts of supports (at least half the team) and its in A rank. Also there is a difference between espeon needing a little support and espeon holding the entire team together

 

[Sucker Lunch]

3. Mega charizard Y needs literal HUGE amounts of supports (at least half the team) and its in A rank.

Just a nitpick. Mega Pinsir requires just as much support a Char-Y. The only reason Char-Y isn't in A+ is because it doesn't have STAB Priority that does a shit ton of damage. Pinsir's ability to snipe faster threats with priority is about half the reason it's as viable as it is.

 

[Nog]

Hazard control and a Pursuit user isn't huge amounts of team support...

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Hazard control and a Pursuit user isn't huge amounts of team support...

I can confidently say its much more support than most other things in A rank require. And besides, saying espeon requires team support is a bad argument in general. All I want to hear is one reason why baton pass Isn't a valid playstyle currently and why espeon isn't good currently. We fix baton pass soon? Fine then, drop espeon to D rank idgaf it sucks and has little niche, but currently espeon is the reason players are making it to extremely high areas of the ladder. I think Deoxys D is the reason HO is so utterly broken its not even funny, but you don't see me trying to drop it because it sucks at almost every other role. Sure espeon is bad at everything except one role, but like deo-D and chansey its so amazing at its role I think we should civilly debate its ranking rather than just "it'll never be A rank because its not gud"

 

[jbtc10]

Lets face it; Espeon cannot be lower than B+ (and should be given that rank immediately until argued otherwise). And for what would probably be the 100th time this has been said; Scolipede cannot be lower than A-. Seriously, can I ask why what are probably the 2 most requested and logical changes have been continuously ignored for the past months by the mods? Everything about them has been said, so can we just update the damn things already so we can shut up about BP for a few seconds?

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Espeon should stay C- because it's completely useless and outclassed outside of mini-Baton Pass chains. I can see your arguments and do agree that Espeon commands the 3bp playstyle alongside scolipede, but that isn't enough to move it up in my opinion.
By this logic, shouldn't we move Porygon2, Reuniclus, Cofagrigus and Slowking up since they command a playstyle (Trick Room)? Shouldn't we move (Mega) Obamasnow up since you HAVE to run it if you want to use a hail team? Shouldn't we move Magnezone up since it's vital for the DragMag playstyle, although it's certainly not as good as it was in gen 5 since Fairy-types are now a thing?

Also, I think Thundurus-T should drop to C. I find Mega Manectric and Raikou to do all of his jobs better bar Choice Specs/Scarf unless you're playing rain, as they are faster, bulkier and not weak to Stealth Rock. Specs Thundy-T does have a niche, though, as it's incredibly powerful. Thundurus-T can also use its excellent Special Attack in rain to abuse STAB Thunders and scout, but tbh I don't feel like it copes well with the C+ pokemon.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Okay guys no need to start a revolution. I actually agree with what you're saying, but it's better to be respectful. You may disagree, but still, be civil.

Anyway, I guess I'll give my opinion before someone changes the subject. Baton Pass is a cheap strategy that takes less skill than other strategies do. That's completely true. The ladder isn't a great way to measure the viability of something. Also true. But, when BP is #1 and #2 on the ladder, and people are still calling it a gimmick, or downplaying how good it is, something has to give. It was suspected, and will likely be suspected again. Sure, people may be classifying it as being uncompetitive rather than broken, but it's still clearly a strategy that is, albeit unfortunately, viable in OU. Even if it's cheap, it really is a crime to have Espeon in C-. Kabutops is B+, and yet is 100% useless outside of rain. Dare I say, it's a worse stand alone Pokemon than Espeon. Yet, it's ranked as a supporter of a Rain team, and therefore is B+. I don't know the ideal rank for Espeon, but the C rank description, and its fellow Pokemon in the C rank, certainly don't compare to its effect on the metagame.

 

[KztxL7]

Espeon should stay C- because it's completely useless and outclassed outside of mini-Baton Pass chains. Nuff said.

Politoed, Kingdra and Kabutops would like a word with you.

I'm supporting Espeon at B+.

 

[Rhaegar]

Scolipede and Espeon can be ranked high on a ladder basis, but I believe the rankings lean more towards tournament viability, and Baton Pass chains are not at all viable in tournaments. Since the better part of the good OU players mainly participate in tournaments, BP mons can hardly be given great ranks on the basis that they wreck the ladder which has a mediocre average skill level at best.

 

[MilkyWay]

I propose Weavile for B+. It's blazing fast speed and high attack allow it to check plenty of top threats in the current metagame or sweep without much support. Weavile's typing is an offensive blessing as well as it lets it beat many common physical walls:

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 437-520 (114.3 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 395-468 (111.5 - 132.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 242-289 (63 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-374 (97.2 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 265-312 (67.2 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (even after Knock Off loses power)

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 424-502 (116.4 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 260-307 (85.5 - 100.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (if it chooses to run Superpower with no hp evs, this is a guaranteed OHKO)


Weavile also has Ice Shard allowing it to beat faster threats such as Thundurus (before getting Thunder Waved), Garchomp (scarfed), Breloom (before mach punch), Dragonite (after dragon dance), Mega Pinsir (before quick attack), Latios (scarfed), and Staraptor (scarfed) with little to no prior damage. On top of that, anything that wants to switch in to avoid a revenge kill will have to think twice in fear of Knock Off. Weavile is also able to beat all of these threats without prior damage if they don't have a scarf or some sort of speed boost. In addition, Weavile also outspeeds and KOs Landorus-I, Tornadus-T, Gengar, Greninja (if it doesn't resist Dark), and many other irrelevant or damaged threats.


As for Weavile's fourth moveslot (after Knock Off, Ice Shard, and Ice Punch) it has a few good options. Swords Dance punishes switches and King's Shield shenanigans while giving Weavile an even better chance to sweep. Pursuit can trap many pokemon that try and flee such as Gengar, Latios, Latias, Aegilash, and pretty much anything weak to dark or with low health. Finally, Low Kick destroys would be counters in Tyranitar and Bisharp while hitting Ferrothorn and Heatran slightly harder than anything else.

Here are some replays of Weavile doing its job, I originally used it on a team to test underrated pokemon.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132549385
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132805078
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133039267
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-133152446

Finally, let me point out that Lucario is in B rank while Weavile is currently setting in B-. Lucario isn't bad, Weavile's base 125 speed gives it a huge advantage over Lucario. When you take everything else into account, Weavile should be at least as high as Lucario and certainly higher than Mega Aerodactly.

tl;dr Weavile has great offensive stats, typing, and movepool that allow it to effectively check common threats and pose as a formidable sweeper itself

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Politoed, Kingdra and Kabutops would like a word with you.

I'm supporting Espeon at B+.

Mega Abomasnow and Kyurem would want a word with you.
Reuniclus and Cofargigus would also want a word with you.

Tbh I wouldn't say Kabutops is 100% useless outside of rain. Remember this thing gets Rapid Spin, shits on Talonflame and Mega Zard X/Y and has potential for late-game sweeping with Swords Dance and Aqua Jet.

And I totally agree with Weavile for B+. He's absolutely amazing on offensive teams, since it's the fastest Knock Off user with STAB on it, fucks up opposing offensive teams with Swords Dance, and can beat all S-ranked Pokemon with proper prediction.

 

[Durant]

Mega Abomasnow and Kyurem would want a word with you.
Reuniclus and Cofargigus would also want a word with you.

And I totally agree with Weavile for B+. He's absolutely amazing on offensive teams, since it's the fastest Knock Off user with STAB on it, fucks up opposing offensive teams with Swords Dance, and can beat of all S-ranked Pokemon with proper prediction.

Hail teams and Trick Room teams aren't generally as good as Baton Pass teams and I personally find Baton Pass teams to be about as good as Rain Dance teams. Supporting Espeon for B+. Would like to make some arguments about it but generally everything I wanted to say has already been said about it.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Mega Abomasnow and Kyurem would want a word with you.
Reuniclus and Cofargigus would also want a word with you.

And I totally agree with Weavile for B+. He's absolutely amazing on offensive teams, since it's the fastest Knock Off user with STAB on it, fucks up opposing offensive teams with Swords Dance, and can beat of all S-ranked Pokemon with proper prediction.

You didn't reply to the Kabutops, Kingdra, and Politoed aspect of the post. Rain is viable, and as such those three are viable. Without rain, they're terrible, but with it, they're viable choices in the metagame. Same goes with Espeon.

Mega Abomasnow, Kyurem, Reuniclus, and Cofagrigus are different. They have niches, but they're either so small or not even good at doing them that it often isn't worth it. Rain and BP Pokemon need support from the team, but can almost always flourish when given this support. Other C- / D rank Pokemon don't have this potential; they need an extreme amount of support, and the team isn't benefitted as much as say, Rain is benefitted from Toed.

Anyway, I'm not sure about Weavile. The Speed, coverage, and priority are all solid, but the bulk and power unfortunately can let it down. It needs to be used late game to be effective. If it is, it will almost never fail; there are few things deterring it from late game cleaning, once all of its obstacles are removed. The big problem is removing or weakening the obstacles significantly. Similar Pokemon to this description are Heracross, Tornadus-T, Conkeldurr, and Suicune; they all need similar, but of course different, levels of support. Therefore, I think B rank is the best place for Weavile.

btw MilkyWay01 thanks for trying to change the subject.

 

[Rotosect]

Okay guys no need to start a revolution. I actually agree with what you're saying, but it's better to be respectful. You may disagree, but still, be civil.

Anyway, I guess I've give my opinion before someone changes the subject. Baton Pass is a cheap strategy that takes less skill than other strategies do. That's completely true. The ladder isn't a great way to measure the viability of something. Also true. But, when BP is #1 and #2 on the ladder, and people are still calling it a gimmick, or downplaying how good it is, something has to give. It was suspected, and will likely be suspected again. Sure, people may be classifying it as being uncompetitive rather than broken, but it's still clearly a strategy that is, albeit unfortunately, viable in OU. Even if it's cheap, it really is a crime to have Espeon in C-. Kabutops is B+, and yet is 100% useless outside of rain. Dare I say, it's a worse stand alone Pokemon than Espeon. Yet, it's ranked as a supporter of a Rain team, and therefore is B+. I don't know the ideal rank for Espeon, but the C rank description, and its fellow Pokemon in the C rank, certainly don't compare to its effect on the metagame.

Take a look at the post-nerf BP thread, the general consensus is that it's not a "cheap and mindless" strategy at all. Even if it was, this is completely besides the point.

Since we're comparing Espeon to "pokemon that have an important niche but are completely useless otherwise", look no further than Politoed: it's the main reason rain teams are viable, it's completely useless outside rain teams and it's B+. Can we agree that BP chains have a higher impact than rain teams? If the answer is yes, then Espeon needs to be ranked above Politoed, which means A-.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

Espeon should stay C- because it's completely useless and outclassed outside of mini-Baton Pass chains. Nuff said.

Also, I think Thundurus-T should drop to C. I find Mega Manectric and Raikou to do all of his jobs better bar Choice Specs, as they are faster, bulkier and not weak to Stealth Rock. Specs Thundy-T does have a niche, though, as it's incredibly powerful.

I disagree. Thundurus-T's niche is to absorb Electric-type attacks on rain teams and use their users as set-up bait, deal at least a third of their HP to them with Volt Switch, or to outright KO them (and still do Mega Manectric's or another Electric-type's job of defeating Water-types, resisting Flying-types, etc.), while Mega Manectric or Raikou cannot do. It also has access to Nasty Plot and Agility, which Mega Manectric and Raikou do not or do not use. While perhaps it is restricted in that you need to use in in rain or otherwise it will be mostly outclassed by Thundurus, the same could be said about Tornadus-T (unless on semi-stall), Kabutops, and Kingdra, yet they all reside in the B rankings.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 305-360 (101.6 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Manectric: 221-261 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 185-218 (57.4 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 196-231 (51 - 60.1%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 162-192 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can take a HP Ice)
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 146-172 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO (again can take one and then Volt Switch or deal heavy damage back)
In my opinion Thundurus-T should stay at C+, and some other rain beneficiaries like Omastar or maybe even Seismitoad could probably move up to C+ as well since they aren't too outclassed by Kabutops or Kingdra and are really more equals than anything else.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Here's a list of viable Swift Swim users in OU:

- Kabutops
- Kingdra
- Ludicolo
- Seismitoad
- Gorebyss
- Omastar

So basically, rain teams usually pick one or two of the above and Politoed, but aren't forced to run two specific Pokemon, like Baton Pass chains. In fact, I wouldn't say Politoed is absolutely necessary on rain teams, it's only recommended to have. This isn't the case with Baton Pass, a playstyle where you NEED to have Scolipede, Espeon, AND a dual screen user if you want to be successful. Keep Espeon at C-.

Also, thoughts on possibly moving Thundurus-T down to C?

Hide

Also, I think Thundurus-T should drop to C. I find Mega Manectric and Raikou to do all of his jobs better bar Choice Specs/Scarf unless you're playing rain, as they are faster, bulkier and not weak to Stealth Rock. Specs Thundy-T does have a niche, though, as it's incredibly powerful. Thundurus-T can also use its excellent Special Attack in rain to abuse STAB Thunders and scout, but tbh I don't feel like it copes well with the C+ pokemon.

^I get your point, but I'd hesitate calling Thundy-T a safe switch-in to Electric-type attacks. A player switching Thundurus-T on an Electric-type attack is much more obvious than Mega Manectric or Raikou. Most Electric-type Pokemon can rain on its day with HP Ice if it tries to set up on them. Double Dance Thundy-T is kinda cool but it gets raped way too easily by many priority attacks, especially when coming from Weavile, Mamoswine, Mega Mawile and Azumarill, who can use the opponent's rain against him/her. Even Talonflame can revenge kill a ~40% Thundurus-T, which isn't uncommon if SR is present on the genie's side.