Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Rhaegar]

Been supporting Mawile for S for a long time. Not going to linger on it because enough has been said but in a nutshell it has two deadly sets which are very hard to check by offensive, balanced and stall teams alike. And a +2 Mawile with speed investment generally nukes anything slower than it and OHKOes almost anything faster which doesn't resist Sucker Punch, and even the one who do need to be sufficiently healthy to take one.

On Clefable, agree with everything Jukain said. CM Clefable is not doing so well but it still has a great role on Stall as an Unaware cleric and is versatile with it's invested defensive stats so I'm not a hundred percent sure about the drop, but if I had to pick something for it, probably A.

On that note I want to bring up that I think Suicune is very underrated. It fits well on many balanced and stall teams by being that bulky water type. I find Crocune to be as good as or even better than CM Clefable due to relatively uncommon weaknesses, ability to spread status, check Keldeo, and hit phazers like Heatran and Hippowdon hard. It's only drawback is its dependence on RestTalk which is often compensated by its sheer bulk. It also does great against stall by even being able to stall out Water Absorb mons with Pressure. In any game, there is often only a single mon at the most which prevents Suicune from sweeping. Just like Clefable though, it struggles with Clear Smog Amoonguss. Even so, Suicune for B+.

Also I think regular Gyarados should drop to B, with Mega Heracross moving up to B+. I'm sure most of us know why Mega Heracross is a bigger and more unique threat than Gyarados or even regular Scizor for that matter.

 

[Sevifar]

Everyone supporting Mega Mawile for A+ so for the sake of good argument I'll say Mega-Mawile for S-Rank.

I think Mega-Mawile should be S because I feel it performs more on par with the pokemon in S rank than the ones in A+ rank. The most popular argument keeping Mawile from S is its middling speed, which means it pretty much always goes 2nd, and depends on the unreliable sucker punch in order to sweep and defend itself from faster threats. It also has no way to deal with status without (a slow) sub.

So, onto why it deserves an S-Rank.

Firstly, it's very easy to bring in. Resists SR, has many resistances/immunities and great bulk to boot. It can also use intimidate once. You can then either setup your sub, SD on the switch, or double switch to a trapper to kill whatever your opponent thinks can kill it. Once you have your SD or Sub, you pretty much guarantee at least one KO on your opponent's team. It's EXTREMELY difficult to stop. It can choose its own counters + checks based on whether it runs SD or Sub, and its movepool. It's power is so much that it can just spam Play Rough and either outright kill or severely dent pokes trying to switch in. There's very few mons who can safely switch in, Heatran is probably the best but if Mawile has Focus punch you're out of luck.

If you can get an SD, a lot of the pokemon that can OHKO it die to sucker punch at +2 (Landorus-I, Talonflame, uninvested Zard-X, Zard-Y, Diggersby, Mamoswine, Excadrill). Uninvested Garchomp takes 96% minimum. Heatran can never guarantee a OHKO and takes 81% minimum from Sucker punch. To me, Mega-Mawile is a lot like Kangaskhan with better everything except sub-breaking ability, movepool and speed.

EDIT: I started typing before all you supporters made your posts :D

 

[mertyville]

oh snap, Mantine is ranked...then might as well rank Pelliper or Swanna which actually have Roost in addition to Defog and a more reliable STAB o.o

Mawile is pretty much a threat people expect it to be. People always think about playing around its sucker punch giving it room to boost, sub or actually attack with any of its coverage moves: Focus Punch, Play Rough, Fire Fang, Iron Head.
In theory, switching into Mawile is really hard if people just stopped using Sucker Punch all the time
I can centainly see Mawile rise to S

I don't know how Tornadus-T does in OU, but judging how dangerous all the itemless Acrobatic sets of the lower tier mons are doing, I can see this thing still as a really threatening mon.
The AV set just does not die, it is pretty fast and it has good offense and moves to abuse them.
Unfortunatly its STAB is unreliable and so are most other special moves it has.
B+ would be highest I would expect it to rise, but B is fine for Tornadus-T's Ranking.

 

[Rotosect]

Any pokemon that can't hold the S rank position in the long run shouldn't be promoted and Mega Mawile is no exception.
Please let's not make the same mistake we did with Mega Venusaur and Pinsir and promote it to S rank just to say "here's the mega flavor of the month!".

Its fire and ground weaknesses, coupled with its extremely low speed and vulnerability to WoW make it unfit for that rank.
Aegislash has the option of going mixed, which is the key difference that separates it from Mega Mawile and lets it hold the S rank, so it needs to stay in A+ rank to highlight this.

 

[trc]

Any pokemon that can't hold the S rank position in the long run shouldn't be promoted and Mega Mawile is no exception.
Please let's not make the same mistake we did with Mega Venusaur and Pinsir and promote it to S rank just to say "here's the mega flavor of the month!".
Its fire and ground weaknesses, coupled with its extremely low speed and vulnerability to WoW make it unfit for that rank.
Aegislash has the option of going mixed, which is the key difference that separates it from Mega Mawile and lets it hold the S rank, so it needs to stay in A+ rank to highlight this.

This is extremely flawed thinking. You have no idea about why it wouldn't hold it in the long run so using nothing more than a guess as your basis for not changing the rank of a Pokemon is a very stupid notion. Furthermore, anyone can name objective factors about a Pokemon that /potentially/ make it flawed in some way, but if you don't actually address the way said Pokemon actually behaves in the metagame, then you don't get an accurate ranking. Mega Mawile is comparable to Landorus, another S Rank Pokemon, in that it is incredibly devastating towards stall teams, and that is an understanding of how it behaves in the metagame. Furthermore, comparing Mawile to Aegislash is stupid, "the option of going mixed" separating the two Pokemon indicates that they're exactly the same, but Aegislash can go mixed, hence it is better and has to be one rank higher. Mega Mawile is an incredibly hard hitter for sure, but it has Intimidate + sufficient bulk for it to not be considered similar to the likes of Darmanitan, a priority attack which is incredibly strong with few resists which makes it not comparable to the likes of Octillery, and it has a devastating SubPunch set which makes it not entirely vulnerable to easy statusing, unlike say, Kingler. A combination of Mega Mawile's beneficial factors make Mega Mawile a Pokemon that severely threatens stall teams while also being useful against offensive teams, easily comparable to Landorus, and solidly S Rank in my opinion.

 

[Albacore]

Yeah, I'd also like to throw in my support for Mawile to S. I think the current suspect test, which MMaw absolutely plagues, proves that people are finally catching on to how powerful this thing is, and for good reason. People say it's easy to revenge kill, but I'm not quite sure how that's the case when most things that attempt to revenge kill it get shredded by +2 Sucker Punch. And sure, WoW is a full stop to the SD set, but firstly, not all teams carry it, and secondly, Mawile often carries Sub, and if you switch to your WoW user on the sub, you can kiss goodbye to a few of your Pokemon. And that's another thing with Mawile, the combination of its amazing typing, ridiculous power, and Intimidate enables it to force a lot of switches. It can easily set up over Pokemon such as Latis, Ferrothron, Mandibuzz, Chansey and Amoonguss. Now, this isn't a huge list of potential setup fodder, but there only needs to be one of them on the opposing team and Mawile gets a free Sub/SD from it. Once that does happen, while you can manage to stop it you often lose one or more Pokemon in the process. And that's not to KO it, that's just to force it out. Maw can come back in later and threaten some more stuff with Sucker Punch. Mawile is not "easy to revenge kill" or "easy to stop", at all.

Oh, and on the subject of MMaw being compared to Azumarill, I'm starting to think the blue bunny could be worthy of S-rank too. Might write up a post about that in the future.

 

[Cinco Swift]

..

Yeah, I'd also like to throw in my support for Mawile to S. I think the current suspect test, which MMaw absolutely plagues, proves that people are finally catching on to how powerful this thing is, and for good reason. People say it's easy to revenge kill, but I'm not quite sure how that's the case when most things that attempt to revenge kill it get shredded by +2 Sucker Punch. And sure, WoW is a full stop to the SD set, but firstly, not all teams carry it, and secondly, Mawile often carries Sub, and if you switch to your WoW user on the sub, you can kiss goodbye to a few of your Pokemon. And that's another thing with Mawile, the combination of its amazing typing, ridiculous power, and Intimidate enables it to force a lot of switches. It can easily set up over Pokemon such as Latis, Ferrothron, Mandibuzz, Chansey and Amoonguss. Now, this isn't a huge list of potential setup fodder, but there only needs to be one of them on the opposing team and Mawile gets a free Sub/SD from it. Once that does happen, while you can manage to stop it you often lose one or more Pokemon in the process. And that's not to KO it, that's just to force it out. Maw can come back in later and threaten some more stuff with Sucker Punch. Mawile is not "easy to revenge kill" or "easy to stop", at all.

Oh, and on the subject of MMaw being compared to Azumarill, I'm starting to think the blue bunny could be worthy of S-rank too. Might write up a post about that in the future.

Okay this is crazy. There's no way Mega Mawile should be S rank when Bisharp is A+ rank. Sure Mega Mawile is powerful, but his crippling weaknesses to common ground and fire moves not mention a dismal 50 speed stat are greats flaws that are easy to exploit. First off, due to his low speed it's easier to predict a sucker punch because of such low speed. Bisharp on the other hand has usable speed to make predicting harder. Next off, what the hell kind of argument is "not all teams carry willowisp"? That's like saying not all teams carry Mega Scizor so Mega Gardevoir should be S-rank. Next off Mawile is susceptible to intimidate AND kings shield which Bisharp is not due to his game breaking ability in defiant which when combined with Deoxys form the game breaking Deosharp combo.. Also Azumarill for S-rank ... Really ... Overall mega Mawile is a great poke but his flaws hold him back from being an s rank poke

 

[Jacks0n]

Yeh mega mawhile is easily s rank. You're logic, saying that mega mawhile loses to will-o-wisp is silly. It's like saying deo s shouldn't be s rank because bisharps sucker punch kills it. And, as albacore said, if they switch to a wisp user and mawhile subs that thing is dead. Mega mawhile is insanely good and easily deserving
Of S rank.

 

[Cinco Swift]

Yeh mega mawhile is easily s rank. You're logic, saying that mega mawhile loses to will-o-wisp is silly. It's like saying deo s shouldn't be s rank because bisharps sucker punch kills it. And, as albacore said, if they switch to a wisp user and mawhile subs that thing is dead. Mega mawhile is insanely good and easily deserving
Of S rank.

Okay first off Bisharps sucker punch won't even hit it if he's setting up layers and layers of hazards ... Deo-s isn't broken cause he can't be killed he's broken cause he guarantees hazards and can also be a revenge killer without a scarf. Also if mega Mawile uses sub and SD he loses out on coverage so he has to use 1 or the other if he wants more coverage to be able to hit all the Pokemon he wants to. Next , there are many pokes that usually get 1 kill or more (victini, damanitan) That doesn't mean the Pokemon is broken..

 

[Jacks0n]

Okay first off Bisharps sucker punch won't even hit it if he's setting up layers and layers of hazards ... Deo-s isn't broken cause he can't be killed he's broken cause he guarantees hazards and can also be a revenge killer without a scarf. Also if mega Mawile uses sub and SD he loses out on coverage so he has to use 1 or the other if he wants more coverage to be able to hit all the Pokemon he wants to. Next , there are many pokes that usually get 1 kill or more (victini, damanitan) That doesn't mean the Pokemon is broken..

I wasn't saying deo s isn't broken because of sucker punch, I was showing ure logic. Also mega mawhile is likely to get a tone of
Kills with its good bulk, insane typing, of the charts attack and good attacking options. It gets plenty of switch In opportunities and both it's sub and sd are amazing. I'm not sure what coveredge you're talking about, so please explain. Sub mawhile hits pretty much everything for neutral damage bar mega venu and amoong.

 

[Askeia]

yeah wtf gamefreak no roost, help me out here pls :[ anyway type immunity and hazard control are both huge when talking about stall. Defog allows you to alleviate pressure off of another one of your teammates who generally has it as well and Water Absorb allows you to gain HP every time they use a water move. Another key thing is Scald. Mantine can cripple physical attackers, wall special attackers, and Toxic nuisances all the while supporting its teammates defensive synergy wise. No one really cares about an offensive presence when using full stall so that point is irrelevant. Lastly I don't really see the reason why you all are arguing Gyarados vs Mantine when they don't perform the same roles and typically aren't even on the same team archetype. The only correlation I see is same typing, which is like comparing Scizor to Genesect ?_?

Gyarados can also choose to run Scald if it wants to. In fact, whether or not Gyarados is typically used to perform the same role, Gyarados can choose to run the exact same set that Mantine runs minus Defog, AND perform better (losing 2.1% special bulk for twice the physical bulk). Water Absorb is not even that significant an advantage because strongest water attack in the game fails to even guarantee 3HKO on it:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Gyarados: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- 27.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Literally the only reason why Mantine will ever be used over Gyarados is Defog. And in the context of stall, there are much more reliable Defog users out there rather than something that needs clerical support to stay alive. (i.e. Gyarados + Skarmory is way better than Mantine + filler) Mantine being ranked is just unconvincing.

 

[dinotrek27]

I wasn't saying deo s isn't broken because of sucker punch, I was showing ure logic. Also mega mawhile is likely to get a tone of
Kills with its good bulk, insane typing, of the charts attack and good attacking options. It gets plenty of switch In opportunities and both it's sub and sd are amazing. I'm not sure what coveredge you're talking about, so please explain. Sub mawhile hits pretty much everything for neutral damage bar mega venu and amoong.

While I must agree that M-Mawile is devastating and really strong, we need to see what really constitutes an S ranker. IMO all the S ranks do their jobs perfectly(Deo formes), always provide immense support for the team regardless of archetype (Thundurus and Zard X) and can get past usual checks and counters without diminishing their overall effectiveness(Will o wisp/thunder punch/Eq Zard-X, Knock off/hidden power ice lando, Superpower/Mental Herb/Red card Deo D). They also need to be metagame defining to a certain extent such that certain pokes can raise in their viability (Scolipede, Air Balloon Heatran, Garchomp/Sand Rush Excadrill, Mandibuzz, CBBNite) or fall in their viability(Mega-voir, Mega-Cham, Mega-Char-Y) based on their effectiveness against or competition with these pokes. However, an influential poke that has noticeable flaws might not necessarily be S rank if the flaws can be exploited. Which is what I think is the biggest problem for Mega Mawile. It is influential and powerful for sure. However, it is really unable to cover all the checks and counters it wants to cover without losing overall effectiveness for example Play rough and Sucker punch are staples and are essential for Mawile to succeed that leaves 2 slots for Sub, Swords Dance, Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Ice Fang and Iron Head. Choosing two of these will eventually leave you in trouble with any of Heatran, M-Venusaur, Landorus-Therian, Skarmory and Ferrothorn which are by no means rare pokemon as well as being revenge killed by stuff like Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Heatran, the Zards, Landorus formes, Greninja etc basically if it's not behind a sub it struggles with revenge killers and if it is it struggles with walls. Choosing 2 will leave you walled or checked by one of these pokes and thus it cannot effectively do its job always unlike most S rankers. And of course Will-o-wisp is a problem. Thus, while M-Mawile should be sitting comfortably in A+ I believe it should go no further

 

[Sevifar]

While I must agree that M-Mawile is devastating and really strong, we need to see what really constitutes an S ranker. IMO all the S ranks do their jobs perfectly(Deo formes), always provide immense support for the team regardless of archetype (Thundurus and Zard X) and can get past usual checks and counters without diminishing their overall effectiveness(Will o wisp/thunder punch/Eq Zard-X, Knock off/hidden power ice lando, Superpower/Mental Herb/Red card Deo D). They also need to be metagame defining to a certain extent such that certain pokes can raise in their viability (Scolipede, Air Balloon Heatran, Garchomp/Sand Rush Excadrill, Mandibuzz, CBBNite) or fall in their viability(Mega-voir, Mega-Cham, Mega-Char-Y) based on their effectiveness against or competition with these pokes. However, an influential poke that has noticeable flaws might not necessarily be S rank if the flaws can be exploited. Which is what I think is the biggest problem for Mega Mawile. It is influential and powerful for sure. However, it is really unable to cover all the checks and counters it wants to cover without losing overall effectiveness for example Play rough and Sucker punch are staples and are essential for Mawile to succeed that leaves 2 slots for Sub, Swords Dance, Focus Punch, Fire Fang, Ice Fang and Iron Head. Choosing two of these will eventually leave you in trouble with any of Heatran, M-Venusaur, Landorus-Therian, Skarmory and Ferrothorn which are by no means rare pokemon as well as being revenge killed by stuff like Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Heatran, the Zards, Landorus formes, Greninja etc basically if it's not behind a sub it struggles with revenge killers and if it is it struggles with walls. Choosing 2 will leave you walled or checked by one of these pokes and thus it cannot effectively do its job always unlike most S rankers. And of course Will-o-wisp is a problem. Thus, while M-Mawile should be sitting comfortably in A+ I believe it should go no further

Behind a sub with a set of Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Sub/Focus Punch it can beat every single Pokemon you just listed, with the exception of Skarmory who can only phaze it out, and Lando-T above 90% health. And both of them need free switch ins. Once Mega-Mawile gets a sub up there's nearly no way to get past it without losing a pokemon in the process. IMO if it had all the versatility of Sub and SD roles on the same set it we'd be talking about a suspect test, not an S rank.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Would the fact that M-Mawile and Clefable are finding roles in the 3-Baton Pass Teams move their viability up? I'm pretty sure Scolipede+M-Mawile is a far better two-mon combo than Scolipede+Espeon, IMHO - Scoli passes a Sub, Swords Dance/Iron Defence, and Speed, and M-Mawile can safely murder everything. Clefable, similarly, is a great BP receiver.

 

[Anish]

M-Mawile can get beaten WOW and also gets checked by hp fire venasaur
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and the fact that mega mawile runs sub focus punch requires it to not be at full healthyou can syntesize a few time to go to full health and you can predict focus punch vs sucker punch to beat it.It is easily a_+ but not higher.Also Rest O Chesto Wash beats it
Focus Punch 76.3 - 90.1%and it can get crippled by will -o

 

[Frozen Arrow]

I am against the idea of clefable dropping to A, Clefable at current is extremely useful due to the fact it has two extremely useful sets and the fact that it can easily be a part of almost any team. It can also easily Switch in on one of the numerous Outrage users and take advantage of that. The fact that It learns flamethrower means not even Steel types can safely switch in on it, especially after one or two boosts leaving only poison to pose a significant treat which is somewhat rare at the moment from what I have seen. It also acts as a great wall against most stall pokemon with its half decent bulk, Magic guard ability and the chance to setup in the face of most stall pokemon. Finally it is actually a fairly decent late game cleaner once anything steel/posion has been dealt with. It does have draw backs with speed but the two completely unique playstyles/sets makes clefable very unpredictable and threatening to many teams especially more Special Offense orientated teams, and what it loses in speed it gains with Bulk and recovery.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm just going to say that I am sad that Gary is no longer running this thread because there has been a lot of grade inflation since he left. He had the balls to say that something isn't that good, and now it just seems like everyone is trying to make every Pokemon look awesome.

If you have a problem with a Pokemon's ranking then speak up, you need to present a solution for a problem to be fixed.

And when talking about Mega Mawile, remembers guys, comparisons. A pump to S rank is the most serious raise that can happen so i want to see some good arguments supporting it. You can overplay its advantages or downplays its downsides to make it seem like an S rank threat, but it's easiest to see the Pokemon's objective value when you compare it with others.

 

[epicdrill]

M-Mawile can get beaten WOW and also gets checked by hp fire venasaur
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 144-170 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
and the fact that mega mawile runs sub focus punch requires it to not be at full healthyou can syntesize a few time to go to full health and you can predict focus punch vs sucker punch to beat it.It is easily a_+ but not higher.Also Rest O Chesto Wash beats it
Focus Punch 76.3 - 90.1%and it can get crippled by will -o

So 3 things kill it. That doesn't mean it can't be S rank. Hell, some Ubers have 3 things in OU that can kill them. It doesn't mean they aren't broken.

 

[Anish]

So 3 things kill it. That doesn't mean it can't be S rank. Hell, some Ubers have 3 things in OU that can kill them. It doesn't mean they aren't broken.

More than 3 just wrote what came to mind .What about aegi that also counter mavile mega.Wash Mega Venasaur Aegi and then others like defensive gyarados mega (not mega evolved).Its very weak not behind a sub thus it can get beaten fast i was refering to @ sevifars statement.These are all the obvious counters that come to mind.Its sure one of the top A+ 's but not the top.Its switch ins are two easy to predict

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.-S RanK.If you all still agree of mega mawile to s how come Azu cant be S Rank,It deserves S more than Mega Mawile.It can run AV ,Bellydrum and Band and each is very effective.
Bellydrum+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 360-424 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Band252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 174-206 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
AssaultVest
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Nog]

Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.-S RanK.If you all still agree how come Azu cant be S Rank.It can run AV ,Bellydrum and Band and each is very effective.
Bellydrum+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 360-424 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Band252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 168-198 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 174-206 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
AssaultVest
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

that has got to be the most terrible argument I have seen in the past couple of days. Azumarill is not rising to S rank, do not discuss it.

 

[HBK]

I second that Mawile has too many flaws for an S tier pokemon. Even if you assume that it runs Iron Head (which is rare) instead of Swords Dance/Substitute/Focus Punch which 2HKOs Venusaur, the latter can still wear it down with a combination of Leech Seed and Synthesis due to Mawile's poor speed. Additionally, the opponent can predict an Iron Head after it has been revealed and switch to the likes of Heatran/Rotom-W and KO/WOW Mawile. The standard set even struggles against Aegislash (Sucker Punch misses out on the OHKO), especially substitute variants. The opponent can also waste turns by spamming King's Shield until Mawile runs out of Sucker Punch PP. Variants carrying Knock Off instead of Focus Punch need not worry about Aegislash but struggle against Skarmory, those that sacrifice Swords Dance to accomodate it are less of a threat in general and are unlikely to sweep. Unlike Bisharp, it lacks Defiant so one can bring Intimidaters like Landorus-T on a predicted Sucker Punch to weaken it, a strategy that can be repeated through smart play. To those who feel that it deserves to be moved to the S-tier, keep in mind that it's currently in the A+ tier which implies that its status as one of OU's potent threats is well established but the S-tier is reserved for pokemon that are almost broken but aren't and Mawile isn't one of them.

 

[jbozz1217]

Milotic should be included on this thread, imo, especially with the slight increase in usage. Maybe C/C-... definitely should be at least on D-list though.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Milotic should be included on this thread, imo, especially with the slight increase in usage. Maybe C/C-... definitely should be at least on D-list though.

Usage isn't an argument. What does Milotic do that other Pokemon can't. It used to be included, but Gary removed it for various reasons. Nothing has really changed, so it still seems rather outclassed by Slowbro, Suicune, and Bisharp.

 

[Red Cat]

If you have a problem with a Pokemon's ranking then speak up, you need to present a solution for a problem to be fixed.

And when talking about Mega Mawile, remembers guys, comparisons. A pump to S rank is the most serious raise that can happen so i want to see some good arguments supporting it. You can overplay its advantages or downplays its downsides to make it seem like an S rank threat, but it's easiest to see the Pokemon's objective value when you compare it with others.

I was just fuming about you saying that everyone thought Gliscor should move up to A- when I and at least one other person made arguments why it shouldn't be. Gliscor's specially defensive set is good, but you have to realize that Gliscor has barely more special bulk than Infernape. SDef Gliscor walls a handful of key threats, but it is not a good wall in general and does not compare to Chansey which walls every special attacker except a handful. I also don't see why Mantine was added to the viability rankings so quickly before anyone questioned why it should be used over Gyarados. It has Defog, but using Defog on something weak to SR with no reliable recovery is generally a bad idea.

And now we are talking about moving Mega Mawile up to S, Torn-T up to B+, and Mega Aggron moving up to B. I'm on the fence about Mega Mawile, but people need to stop acting like being at +2 or behind a sub are standard battle conditions. It still takes a turn to set up which can be difficult to find sometimes. Also the five move Sub + SD + PR + SP + Focus Punch set doesn't exist, so either it is not getting to +2 or it doesn't have Focus Punch. It doesn't compare to faster threats like Thundurus, Zard-X and Landorus, and it doesn't have the combination of bulk and power that Aegislash has. Torn-T has either a weak or an unreliable STAB depending on what you choose and its Special Attack is good but not great. It is also not wise to waste rain turns on its Hurricane when you can be using Swift Swim Sweepers instead. No way this should be higher than Kingdra on rain teams. Mega Aggron has no reliable recovery and bad STAB and is not very bulky on the special side which are considerable flaws. I don't think this is better than Mega Blastoise.

that has got to be the most terrible argument I have seen in the past couple of days. Azumarill is not rising to S rank, do not discuss it.

I think if Mega Mawile gets to S rank, we open up the floodgates and people will start discussing a lot of things for S rank. That is why I am against everyone just hyping positive traits of Pokemon without looking at their negative traits with more scrutiny.

 

[jbozz1217]

Usage isn't an argument. What does Milotic do that other Pokemon can't. It used to be included, but Gary removed it for various reasons. Nothing has really changed, so it still seems rather outclassed by Slowbro, Suicune, and Bisharp.

Suicune- 100/115/115
Slowbro- 95/110/80
Milotic- 95/79/125

It is outclassed, but so is most everything else in C/D, that's the point as I see it. Marvel Scale brings Milotic's defense higher than both Slowbro and Suicune, which makes Rest Milotic fairly bulky, although it is still outclassed because it doesn't have access to Calm Mind. In my opinion this doesn't mean it shouldn't be on this list. Also, one can choose to run Recover instead of RestTalk and then open up a fourth moveslot (not to mention +10 higher base SpA than Suicune), an option that Suicune does not have. This gives Milotic (p)hazing potential and coverage in case someone wants to use a Competitive>Marvel Scale set-- which is somewhat niche-based but actually usable.

I don't think Milotic can really compare to Slowbro because Slowbro is never meant to be a special wall, while Milotic is a special wall or mixed at best. I would argue that Milotic is, in some cases, better than Slowbro because Slowbro's typing is not really great defensively. Psychic does nothing for it except add weaknesses—especially to the ever-common Knock Off—and a not-so-often used STAB in Psyshock.

I would not advocate for bulky offense-Competitive sets. This is severely outclassed by Bisharp. I would however advocate for defensive sets with Competitive (and a team cleric) that actually gives Milotic a nice way to boost it's special attack while still retaining all of its bulk. Not to mention that this set could be used with Assault Vest if someone wants to get creative/surprising, etc...

My 2cents