Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[pws72000]

Although I don't agree on the current (or next I guess) BP nerf/ban, I do want to point at these ambiguous posture when banning stuff. Smogon claims to avoid complex bans for a reason (dunno what's wrong with Blaze Blaziken tbh) yet some of the users here are proposing the most ridiculous and obscure "clauses" (if you wanna call them that) like limiting the amount of BP per match lol. It's not like I didn't foresee this happening, but even after a nerf people are still unprepared and haven't really adapted to a different playstyle. Good job fellas

not that I don't agree with some of what you're saying, but please try to refrain from making off-topic statements. these threads are here to come up with answers, not for evoking reaction. Instead of just saying that we haven't adapted (whatever that means), go into more detail. How does a balanced core accomodate for a BP chain, and do those preparations for countering BP take away from the benefit of using moveslots usually reserved for standard ou C&C's? Also, do these adjustments have uses outside of their niche, or are they simply gimmicks?

Unlike Blaziken, who is basically a boosting engine unto himself (not the best example btw), existing BP teams need every one of their key members to function, making simple bans of a move/pokemon involved not so simple. Banning Espeon outright would be the cleanest simple ban, but doing that comes with side effects. BP chain teams would be crippled, perhaps unfairly; and people who might want to use Espeon just for the hell of it would be SOL because he just happens to have Magic Bounce, Baton Pass, and Stored Power. I too think that banning Blaziken outright is kinda stupid - without Speed Boost, he's trash.

That said, there is a fine line at work here. Banning too many individual things is the easy way to solve a problem, but it creates collateral damage in the process, such is the case with non-SB Blaziken. Using too many complex bans/clauses allows problems to be addressed more precisely, but it's a lot more work to implement, and it creates lots of little rules that nobody wants to take the time to learn and follow.

 

[WebBowser]

Okay, hold up. It seems that most people here are out for the blood of Baton Pass, so why go through the bullshit? It's already been made very clear that Blaze Blaziken isn't allowed in OU, that Mold Breaker Excadrill wasn't allowed last-gen, so why all the complex bans now all of a sudden? It's very clear that you guys want it gone more than you want it nerfed; banning Espeon w/ Baton Pass seems quite arbitrary in this sense. If Espeon can be broken in certain circumstances, ban Espeon. If Scolipede can be broken under certain circumstances, ban Scolipede. That's like saying Blaziken's okay without Swords Dance or Deoxys-A's okay because it's not broken defensively. Doesn't Policy Review say we should prefer banning Pokemon to abilities/moves, which gives banning Pokemon precedence to banning moves, like Baton Pass entirely?

Either way, though, I do think more time should pass before we come to such conclusions, and possibly the total banning of Deoxys, to arrive at better determination of the state of Baton Pass.

I wanted to comment on this real quick. While it is true that there is a huuuge amount of hatred for baton pass within the Smogon community, hatred that goes well beyond any meaningful justification (I don't care how much you hate it or how broken it is, it's no excuse to devolve into swearing and lobbing insults/threats like a very ill mannered 14 year old, and yes I am in the minority who believes that Denis is a phenomenally skilled teambuilder and battler who does NOT deserve ANY of the hate he recieves), that does not apply to the entire community. I do agree with what your saying in a sense though. I personally think that if a further nerf was needed, then banning scolipede would be preferable to further reducing the BP limit. That being said, there is precedence for BP related complex bans. As I am sure you know, Ingrain-Smeargle was banned in gen 3 as it made BP unfair against stall and balanced teams. I think part of the reason why there's so much more backlash on the ideas of banning scolipede or espeon as a whole instead of a complex ban is the fact that espeon and scoli are fairly versatile mons that aren't horribly outclassed by another common OU mon (hai infernape).

Anyway, IF a further nerf is in fact needed, then I really don't see how we can get around doing something to scolipede itself, whether it be ban iron defense scoli or just outright banning scoli. I simply cannot see how a 2 BP team is that much weaker then three, and frankly I think that 1 BP mon limit is getting kinda close to just outright banning BP entirely and would have far too much collateral compared to a scoli ban.

I also totally agree that we should wait for the deos to be banned finish being suspected first (and maybe suspect thundy while we are at it....)

As stated before, I am dead set against a blanket ban of baton pass. This is largely because 1. I really don't think it's necessary and 2. One of my favorite teams of all time happens to rely on dry passing wishes, and I really don't want that to disappear... This is probably a selfish reason, but I try not to allow myself to be too clouded by personal bias.

 

[Art Vandelay]

not that I don't agree with some of what you're saying, but please try to refrain from making off-topic statements. these threads are here to come up with answers, not for evoking reaction. Instead of just saying that we haven't adapted (whatever that means), go into more detail. How does a balanced core accomodate for a BP chain, and do those preparations for countering BP take away from the benefit of using moveslots usually reserved for standard ou C&C's? Also, do these adjustments have uses outside of their niche, or are they simply gimmicks?

Unlike Blaziken, who is basically a boosting engine unto himself (not the best example btw), existing BP teams need every one of their key members to function, making simple bans of a move/pokemon involved not so simple. Banning Espeon outright would be the cleanest simple ban, but doing that comes with side effects. BP chain teams would be crippled, perhaps unfairly; and people who might want to use Espeon just for the hell of it would be SOL because he just happens to have Magic Bounce, Baton Pass, and Stored Power. I too think that banning Blaziken outright is kinda stupid - without Speed Boost, he's trash.

That said, there is a fine line at work here. Banning too many individual things is the easy way to solve a problem, but it creates collateral damage in the process, such is the case with non-SB Blaziken. Using too many complex bans/clauses allows problems to be addressed more precisely, but it's a lot more work to implement, and it creates lots of little rules that nobody wants to take the time to learn and follow.

I think that is the problem. I'm not effortlessly trying to provoke anyone. Just merely pointing at the main problem. People hasn't taken these teams as a serious playstyle. What I meant with my previous post was that after the suspect test, people thought "well, with 3 members only BP teams are manageable and I should not worry about facing another (cuz no one is gonna run them again)". What happened was that 1-3 players actually took time to still device a BP team that can be pulled off successfully with just 3 BP users.

What do you consider "standard" anyways? If BP teams (current state) seem to be still somewhat dominant, shouldn't that be considered "standard" ("metagame" anyone?)? Why would I make a team that covers stall but doesn't let me check BP? How many stall teams have you faced while laddering? Do you really need a dedicated slot to deal with them? How is the inclusion of Taunt or Roar a gimmick? Can't it be useful against other teams as well?

It's my opinion that even during the first suspect people hadn't really thought hard enough as a community on how to effectively deal with BP. The Haze Quagsire argument is the most terrible way to deal with it. Every BP user knows that. Mega RoarDos is on the same boat. It has been mentioned multiple times but applying pressure early on with heavy hitters is the most effective way. Even balance has a heavy hitter (if not, they should). CB Raptor, MegaHeracross, Lando-I gives trouble to Scolipede early on and prevent the BP chain to start the usual way. Also, I realize that BP teams can also adjust (like the inclusion of Coba berry on Scolipede to secure an Acid Armor boost) but even then it can't deal with EVERYTHING at the same time. If it has Coba berry, then priority taunt shuts it down. If it has Mental Herb, strong Flying attack deters him from getting boosts; and so on.

I'm not here to say there should or shouldn't be another test, just saying that some of the fundamentals on how to tackle this "problem" are not the correct ones.

 

[TIZNE]

I know it's preferred to ban pokes, but banning Speed Boost altogether could be cleaner. And that leaves no chance for BP to just swap Ninjask for Scolipede (I know it's inferior but it's still free boosting...)

 

[MilkyWay]

I think that our goal should be is to nerf baton pass enough so its about as effective as it was last gen, viable, but hard to use. That being said, the biggest difference between baton pass teams in xy opposed to bw is Scolipede. While banning Scolipede altogether would solve the problem, it is not the best option. Scolipede has other viable sets such as a Life Orb sweeper or initiating in a quick pass. With that in mind, banning baton pass on Scolipede is also out of the picture (in my opinion) as it would ban a perfectly good set. So, as I see it we have two options that would nerf baton pass teams back to viable, but hard to use. The first option is banning Scolipede + Iron Defense + Baton Pass. This is a fairly good option as without Iron Defense baton pass teams cannot boost easily boost their defenses early while simultaneously boosting their speed as well. This would require baton pass teams to rely more on skill than following their formula. The other option would be to ban Scolipede and another baton pass user from being on the same team. This would have the same effects as the previous solution while forcing baton pass teams to go back to ninjask, who is inferior to Scolipede even without factoring in iron defense. This is the option that I prefer the most, however, I think that many wouldnt like this as it is an even more complex ban. Finally, along with both options i also think that baton pass teams should be allowed as many baton pass users as they want, thus reversing the original nerf. While many may be opposed to this, hear me out. When we limited baton pass teams to three users, we destroyed the viability of niche pokemon like Mr. Mime and Vaporean. These pokemon weren't the problem with baton pass and lost their only niche in ou, they were part of the collateral damage that Scolipede caused. The only broken thing about baton pass is Scolipede,(and Deoxys-S but it's going to be banned in a matter of days) Scolipede should be the primary target of any potential nerfs, not baton pass in general. Therefore, by aiming our nerfs at Scolipede, other members of baton pass wont have their viability in jeopardy and baton pass can return to a hard but viable strategy, as it has been in previous generations which allowed six baton pass users per team.

tl;dr Scolipede is the problem, either ban Scolipede + Iron Defense + Baton Pass or Scolipede + Another Baton Pass User on the same team. Also return baton pass to six users max per team, no reason to jeopardize the viability of Mr. Mime and Vaporean when they arent the problems. Also, remember that the ultimate goal of these nerfs should be to return baton pass to a hard, but viable strategy. Not to destroy it completely or leave it broken.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm tired of this complex ban bullshit; all it does is makes things worse. We limit the number of BPers instead of banning them and they immediately come back without a stratch. We shouldn't be trying to avoid banning blatantly broken things just because it makes some shit viable (*coughDrizzlecough*), we should just get rid of the broken shit, whether it means banning a Mon (Scolipede or Espeon) or just banning the move.

 

[Pocket]

Okay, hold up. It seems that most people here are out for the blood of Baton Pass, so why go through the bullshit? It's already been made very clear that Blaze Blaziken isn't allowed in OU, that Mold Breaker Excadrill wasn't allowed last-gen, so why all the complex bans now all of a sudden? It's very clear that you guys want it gone more than you want it nerfed; banning Espeon w/ Baton Pass seems quite arbitrary in this sense. If Espeon can be broken in certain circumstances, ban Espeon. If Scolipede can be broken under certain circumstances, ban Scolipede. That's like saying Blaziken's okay without Swords Dance or Deoxys-A's okay because it's not broken defensively. Doesn't Policy Review say we should prefer banning Pokemon to abilities/moves, which gives banning Pokemon precedence to banning moves, like Baton Pass entirely?

Either way, though, I do think more time should pass before we come to such conclusions, and possibly the total banning of Deoxys, to arrive at better determination of the state of Baton Pass.

Like I said, I believe that Espeon and Scolipede are the main offenders of the current Baton Pass teams, so banning these two Pokemon is a possible solution. However, it doesn't solve the problem, as dEnNiSsS will simply replace Scolipede with Ninjask and Espeon for Mega Absol. "Baton Pass is still broke" conversation ensues for the third time. The 'cancer' would still exist, albeit in a weaker form.

The root of the problem is the use of Baton Pass in conjunction with the abilities Magic Bounce and Speed Boost. Scolipede, Espeon, Ninjask, M Absol are simply vessels of this broken combination. It's not like Blaziken or Excadrill, where each former suspects were individually broken. These 4 Pokemon share common broken elements that make complex clauses appropriate. Blaziken and Excadrill are quite unique Pokemon - try to find a universally broken element in these two that are shared by other 'broken' Pokemon. I don't think you can identify one. The immense power and unstoppable nature of Blaziken and Excadrill are distinct to these Pokemon with a specific set of typing, stats, movepool, and ability unmatched by other Pokemon.

We can ban 4 Pokemon or implement 2 combo clauses. I support the latter.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Like I said, I believe that Espeon and Scolipede are the main offenders of the current Baton Pass teams, so banning these two Pokemon is a possible solution. However, it doesn't solve the problem, as dEnNiSsS will simply replace Scolipede with Ninjask and Espeon for Mega Absol. "Baton Pass is still broke" conversation ensues for the third time. The 'cancer' would still exist, albeit in a weaker form.

The root of the problem is the use of Baton Pass in conjunction with the abilities Magic Bounce and Speed Boost. Scolipede, Espeon, Ninjask, M Absol are simply vessels of this broken combination. It's not like Blaziken or Excadrill, where each former suspects were individually broken. These 4 Pokemon share common broken elements that make complex clauses appropriate. Blaziken and Excadrill are quite unique Pokemon - try to find a universally broken element in these two that are shared by other 'broken' Pokemon. I don't think you can identify one. The immense power and unstoppable nature of Blaziken and Excadrill are distinct to these Pokemon with a specific set of typing, stats, movepool, and ability unmatched by other Pokemon.

We can ban 4 Pokemon or implement 2 combo clauses. I support the latter.

Honestly you can try baton pass with ninjask and MegaAbsol, but it just isn't that good.
Ninjask is frail as can be, lacks Iron defense, horrible typing, and 4x stealth rock weakness.
Mega Absol really frail, Lacks magic bounce comming in, and lacks stored power.

 

[Clone]

Honestly you can try baton pass with ninjask and MegaAbsol, but it just isn't that good.
Ninjask is frail as can be, lacks Iron defense, horrible typing, and 4x stealth rock weakness.
Mega Absol really frail, Lacks magic bounce comming in, and lacks stored power.

Like I said, I believe that Espeon and Scolipede are the main offenders of the current Baton Pass teams, so banning these two Pokemon is a possible solution. However, it doesn't solve the problem, as dEnNiSsS will simply replace Scolipede with Ninjask and Espeon for Mega Absol. "Baton Pass is still broke" conversation ensues for the third time. The 'cancer' would still exist, albeit in a weaker form.

Thats the point...

 

[Grey Waves]

I know it's preferred to ban pokes, but banning Speed Boost altogether could be cleaner. And that leaves no chance for BP to just swap Ninjask for Scolipede (I know it's inferior but it's still free boosting...)

Banning Speed Boost would imply that every Pokemon that got Speed Boost was broken, whether that be Scolipede, Blaziken, Ninjask, Yanmega, Combusken, or Sharpedo. However, those last four Pokemon are not viable in OU (with the possible exception of Ninjask).

Like I said, I believe that Espeon and Scolipede are the main offenders of the current Baton Pass teams, so banning these two Pokemon is a possible solution. However, it doesn't solve the problem, as dEnNiSsS will simply replace Scolipede with Ninjask and Espeon for Mega Absol. "Baton Pass is still broke" conversation ensues for the third time. The 'cancer' would still exist, albeit in a weaker form.

No. This was discussed several times in the original thread. Ninjask is completely inferior to Scolipede, whilst Mega Absol is completely outclassed (in a BP role) by Espeon. However, you are correct in saying that Magic Bounce and Speed Boost are the roots of the problem.

Personally, I think we should just ban Scolipede and kill off the issue once and for all.

 

[Rotosect]

Or maybe it's time to drop the crusade against BP chains and accept they are a viable playstyle, on par with HO, stall and balanced.
This is getting ridiculous now.

 

[looiiyut]

Do you think that Deoxys-S is so important in the baton-pass chain? It's only a support and i'm waiting for BP 3.0 lol

 

[shack]

I fail to see why you brought Aegislash into this. In the process of teambuilding, you will definitely have something on your team that is viable AND can take Aegislash on. Even if you don't counter it, there will exist checks in your team. Furthermore, even if you aren't prepared for it, you can still play around it, unlike BP where no preparation = gg most of the time.

The difference between BP and hazards is that hazards is used by virtually everyone. Also, even if you don't carry something to take care of hazards, you can still live with it. This is obviously a very big contrast with BP teams where if you don't have a perfect counter, you will lose 99% of the time. Even if you do bring your counter in, chances are it might not work as well as you hoped. Basically, this means you are carrying Poke X which is useless in every other situation except for Baton Pass, whom it did only slightly better than Poke Y which is seen as less of a liability (although Poke Y does not do well against BP teams) -> You are weakening yourself by doing this.

Lose 99% of the time? Please provide the proof of this. And please provide it with equal experienced players, not someone who has been using BP for months and has 100+ games using it versus someone who has only faced BP 10 times...

And no you don't lose to BP every time. You lose if you make a mistake, just like you most likely lose if you hit Weaknite with a SE move on the same turn it used DD. I have a huge amount of wins just because people let my Scizor SD 1-2 times. That is 2 turns = GG. BP is like 10 turns lol

And get ready for this... If you're Unaware Quagsire lost to BP, then maybe the other person is straight up better than you and would have won even without BP. AKA, you're not as good as you think.

Oh yeah, and how is Perish Song on Gengar or Politoad useless? Especially if you already have a trap team. How is Prankster Taunt useless? Switcharoo/Entrainment/Trick. What about Sandstorm/Hail teams that use Hazards? Infiltrator too. People are just being stubborn/lazy and don't want to break the meta to make new teams (which will end up changing the meta).

 

[G-Beast]

I love leading choice specs heatran or Latios against BP teams and watch their lead just die

 

[jpw234]

I find it very difficult to understand how you can justify first saying this:

pws72000, your proposal of limiting the number of times one can use BP is very arbitrary, which reminds me why I dislike the current clause on BP - it's arbitrary. Setting an arbitrary cap on Pokemon that can use BP isn't gonna stop Denissss, etc from using the broken stuff like Scolipede and Espeon. Some may argue that Espeon isn't broken, because it is not broken outside of BP chains. If such logic is sound, then you're essentially agreeing that Excadrill in BW2 wasn't broken, because it is fine outside of sand. Obviously that's not the case. If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken.

And then saying this:

So essentially banning Espeon / Magic Bounce + BP is sufficient to drop the viability of BP chain teams by many folds. However, as many users have identified in suspect threads, such as WebBowser, Scolipede is a critical component in any hated BP chain team we see today, netting passive Speed boosts that enables defensive boosts to go up before the opponent's assaults even connect.

Bottomline - Option 3 (Complex bans of Magic Bounce + BP and Speed Boost + BP) would be a full stop to the current BP teams that we abhor facing on the ladder (or hell even in tournaments, as seen in at least 2 official matches). No more RPS match-ups that Stathakis mentions with these elements removed. I wouldn't mind tacking a ban on Ingrain Pass as well, just as a final nail on the coffin (although, this is quite gratuitous).

I think that people should have the freedom to design a "Baton Pass team" or a semi-bp team if they desire, as long as they are not using elements that broke these teams (Magic Bounce, Speed Boost, Ingrain w/e). Banning Baton Pass entirely or limiting the number of Baton Pass users to 1 or 2 imposes unnecessary restrictions to this game.

You made the argument yourself - just replace "Pokemon" with "move" in the sentence "If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken". How can you make that argument and then ask for anything but a blanket ban on Baton Pass?

In my mind, if we're gonna ban it, we should ban it. Everything I'm hearing is effectively "Baton Pass should be allowed, but only if it's nerfed to the point that it's unviable, so I can go back to wiping the floor with people using it and laughing at them like I did in 4th gen". It would be far more merciful to just kill it.

 

[MagikaripIsOP]

Baton pass isn't even op anymore... The meta has just changed into: Offense, Stall, Baton pass, and to a lesser extent Balance.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

You made the argument yourself - just replace "Pokemon" with "move" in the sentence "If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken". How can you make that argument and then ask for anything but a blanket ban on Baton Pass?

In my mind, if we're gonna ban it, we should ban it. Everything I'm hearing is effectively "Baton Pass should be allowed, but only if it's nerfed to the point that it's unviable, so I can go back to wiping the floor with people using it and laughing at them like I did in 4th gen". It would be far more merciful to just kill it.

That's the problem. People don't want BP to be balanced. They want BP gone. If there is a chance higher than 0% of a player winning against them using Baton pass, then the move must be nerfed again/banned. It isn't a matter of thinking that BP is overpowered, it's a matter of hating BP in an emotional way.

 

[Pocket]

You made the argument yourself - just replace "Pokemon" with "move" in the sentence "If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken". How can you make that argument and then ask for anything but a blanket ban on Baton Pass?

In my mind, if we're gonna ban it, we should ban it. Everything I'm hearing is effectively "Baton Pass should be allowed, but only if it's nerfed to the point that it's unviable, so I can go back to wiping the floor with people using it and laughing at them like I did in 4th gen". It would be far more merciful to just kill it.

There is FAR more collateral in banning a move than a Pokemon. Banning a Pokemon only affects that one Pokemon - banning a move affects the viability of 20+ other non-broken Pokemon. Banning Baton Pass, only because 2-4 mons are broken with it, would be a major disservice to these users.

Option 3 (the 2 combo bans) bans neither the move or the Pokemon, while removing the carcinogenic part of Baton Pass. I don't know about you, but this seems to me the most reasonable approach to this issue.

 

[jpw234]

There is FAR more collateral in banning a move than a Pokemon. Banning a Pokemon only affects that one Pokemon - banning a move affects the viability of 20+ other non-broken Pokemon. Banning Baton Pass, only because 2-4 mons are broken with it, would be a major disservice to these users.

Option 3 (the 2 combo bans) bans neither the move or the Pokemon, while removing the carcinogenic part of Baton Pass. I don't know about you, but this seems to me the most reasonable approach to this issue.

Pragmatically reasonable but logically inconsistent. If we ban a Pokemon for its best set, we should ban a move for its best abuser(s). When we banned Landorus for its RP-based Special sets last gen we did a "disservice to users" who were using physical Lando. If we're willing to remove only the "carcinogenic part" of a move OR Pokemon we open a can of worms that we've committed to avoiding.

 

[Pocket]

So what you're suggesting is that we should've banned Air Slash because Shaymin-S was broke with it; Spikes because Deoxys-D/S is broke with it; U-turn because Genesect was broke with it... there's a reason why we ban Pokemon before moves

 

[jpw234]

No, I'm not, and you know I'm not. Nobody is reasonably suggesting that Espeon/Scolipede/Smeargle are broken Pokemon, everybody is suggesting that Baton pass is a broken move, as evidenced by the fears in this thread that "Scolipede will just be replaced by Ninjask" etc. In the same way that "quickpassing is a non-broken use of Baton Pass that we shouldn't remove", one could argue that "physical Lando-I is a non-broken use of Lando-I that we shouldn't remove", but we've committed to not setting that precedent.

Edit: It's the same reason, for example, we banned the move Swagger, rather than the combination of Prankster and Swagger.

 

[Karxrida]

The difference here is that Air Slash is broken on 1 Pokemon, while Baton Pass is broken on several (even in lower tiers, where Venomoth shot to fucking BL from NU and SmashPass was banned in lower tiers last Gen). We should just ban the move and be done with it.

 

[Pocket]

You're comparing an entire playstyle to a Pokemon. We didn't kill sand back in BW2 because Excadrill and Sand Veil were broken in it. Likewise, we didn't kill rain back in BW2 because Manaphy, Swift Swim, Tornadus-T were broken by it. There's a reason why we did this - to minimize collateral damage to non-broken Pokemon. Baton Pass is the same case scenario.

It's true that we didn't ban Sheer Force Landorus-I in order to save physical Landorus-I, similarly to how we haven't banned Speed Boost Blaziken / Sand Rush Excadrill to save Blaze Blaziken / Moldbreaker Excadrill in BW2. Quoting myself here:

The root of the problem is the use of Baton Pass in conjunction with the abilities Magic Bounce and Speed Boost. Scolipede, Espeon, Ninjask, M Absol are simply vessels of this broken combination. It's not like Blaziken or Excadrill, where each former suspects were individually broken. These 4 Pokemon share common broken elements that make complex clauses appropriate. Blaziken and Excadrill are quite unique Pokemon - try to find a universally broken element in these two that are shared by other 'broken' Pokemon. I don't think you can identify one. The immense power and unstoppable nature of Blaziken and Excadrill are distinct to these Pokemon with a specific set of typing, stats, movepool, and ability unmatched by other Pokemon.

 

[Karxrida]

You're comparing an entire playstyle to a Pokemon. We didn't kill sand back in BW2 because Excadrill and Sand Veil were broken in it. Likewise, we didn't kill rain back in BW2 because Manaphy, Swift Swim, Tornadus-T were broken by it. Baton Pass is the same case scenario.

It's true that we didn't ban Sheer Force Landorus-I in order to save physical Landorus-I, similarly to how we haven't banned Speed Boost Blaziken / Sand Rush Excadrill to save Blaze Blaziken / Moldbreaker Excadrill in BW2. Quoting myself here:

We didn't kill Sand because it only broke Excadrill and Sand Veil's ban was an extension of the Evasion Clause anyway. We didn't kill Rain because we tried to avoid collateral, but we created far more collateral damage than killing it would have (i.e. a shit meta).

I honestly don't care if we go to Option 3 or just ban the move, I just want BP dead.

 

[jpw234]

You're comparing an entire playstyle to a Pokemon. We didn't kill sand back in BW2 because Excadrill and Sand Veil were broken in it. Likewise, we didn't kill rain back in BW2 because Manaphy, Swift Swim, Tornadus-T were broken by it. There's a reason why we did this - to minimize collateral damage to non-broken Pokemon. Baton Pass is the same case scenario.

It's true that we didn't ban Sheer Force Landorus-I in order to save physical Landorus-I, similarly to how we haven't banned Speed Boost Blaziken / Sand Rush Excadrill to save Blaze Blaziken / Moldbreaker Excadrill in BW2. Quoting myself here:

fat Pocket said:
The root of the problem is the use of Baton Pass in conjunction with the abilities Magic Bounce and Speed Boost. Scolipede, Espeon, Ninjask, M Absol are simply vessels of this broken combination. It's not like Blaziken or Excadrill, where each former suspects were individually broken. These 4 Pokemon share common broken elements that make complex clauses appropriate. Blaziken and Excadrill are quite unique Pokemon - try to find a universally broken element in these two that are shared by other 'broken' Pokemon. I don't think you can identify one. The immense power and unstoppable nature of Blaziken and Excadrill are distinct to these Pokemon with a specific set of typing, stats, movepool, and ability unmatched by other Pokemon.

Please don't pretend like Baton Pass will exist as a relevant playstyle after the bans you're proposing. It will return to its previous status of a terrible gimmick that beats bad players on the lower ladder. The difference between banning Speed Boost/BP and Magic Bounce/BP and just banning BP is the difference between brain-death and death - aka, nothing meaningful.

Also, a much better comparison would be between Baton Pass and SwagPlay in this gen; we did kill Swagger because the determination was that the playstyle was exploiting something uncompetitive. Baton Pass is reviled because of something unique about it, namely, it's the only non-interactive method of playing Pokemon. The verdict that the community delivered was obviously not that BP should be nerfed because it was too powerful, it was because they didn't want to play against it. So again, like we did with Swagger, if we're going to ban it, we should ban it.

The quote you presented is wrong, the complaint has always been with Baton Pass, the fact that Speed Boost/Magic Bounce happen to be what make Baton Pass viable is what generates the discussion around those specific mons. See: SmashPass bans in lower tiers.

Finally, we should have killed rain, but that's another discussion.