Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[TFL]

Baton Pass's use in dry passing is as good an argument to not move ban as Swagger's use on certain defensive Pokemon, like Quagsire and Mandibuzz. Both would be used on pretty irrelevant Pokemon, or rather, irrelevant options overall (I can't take anyone who says Celebi is good seriously, because it's sub par at best).

Unless you are wanting to argue keeping Baton Pass to save SmashPass. In this case, I don't really know what to say...

Too bad more people aren't cancering up tours with this move, strat, play style, what-have-you, because if there were, it would likely be better dealt with.

 

[looiiyut]

Okay, there are a number of issues with what you say. Stathakis and I, both have made points that show why Baton Pass is unhealthy for the OU Metagame despite not being "unbeatable." The issue with Baton Pass teams is they have been inherently unhealthy and bad for the game for years dating back to Gen 3 like Stathakis mentioned before. For those of you who are newer and don't have much knowledge of tournament history; ImperfectLuck used Baton Pass back in OST 7 (which is DPP before there was Magic Bounce) and had huge success with it.

looiiyut2. You and several others still don't understand that no one is saying that Baton Pass is unbeatable because there are ways to beat those teams but answer me this: If you don't carry those "counters" of ways to beat BP, can you outplay the opponent and win? The answer is no, you cannot. If you don't carry Taunt users, Phazing, etc you will just flat out lose and there is little to nothing you can do about it besides hope for hax. You can't double switch to gain the upper hand, you can't outpredict, you can't really gameplan to setup a win.

So what you are others are saying is "You have to run those counters otherwise you will lose, adapt and stop whining." This doesn't strike you as an issue? Going into a game and having lost it before you even make a single move is okay to you? Not every team can fit those methods of beating BP in every single team. I know you will say that it's the same with any setup sweeper in the game. No, it's not the same. If you don't believe me, go look at both SPL replays and WCOP Replays. You will see that despite being weak to a certain setup sweeper or having a bad team matchup, can avoid losing games to that threat or losing the game in general through good plays and being the better player that match.

You can't make a team that is unbeatable, it's just not possible anymore or ever was. There is always going to be something that beats it, but being weak to something doesn't mean you will auto-lose. Only on few cases should that happen in the first place. When I build a team, I know that I'm weak to threat A, B and C. That's fine because when I play a battle and run into those threats, I can make sure they can't come in safely, I don't get them room to be able to setup, I double switch to put pressure on them. With Baton Pass, you can't do that. You can be CTC, Gr8astard, or Pokeaim but you will not be able to outplay those teams. Those games are decided as soon as you hit team preview. It turn that entire metagame into having the counters and slaughtering the opponent or you get slaughtered because you don't have the counters. With this you completely remove that aspect of skill out of the equation. Is this what you want in a healthy meta? Do you want to go into games and have little to no chance to win? Or praying to hax the other player to win? Ask yourself this.

I don't understand why this is difficult concept to comprehend. Literally anyone who actually plays the game or has any understanding of the meta should be able tell you this is not what you want. You guys would rather restrict teambuilding even more than it already is, to force everyone to adapt. Since that's the case we can unban Rayquazza, Kyogre, and Arceus, or remove Sleep Clause and we'll just "adapt." It's not that different from keeping Baton Pass around, this should be ideal right?



Since when does Unaware Quagsire counter BP??? You obviously don't understand how Stored Power mechanics work. Stored Power gets stronger as you get more stat boosts, Unaware may ignore the actual stat boosts but it doesn't stop Stored Power from getting absurdly strong. So tell me exactly how Quagsire is going to tank a 180 Base Power Stored Power with that measly 65 Special Defense.

I belive you and yes I'm a new user but i can't read "ban BP because people hate it". It's a stupid reason. Thanks a lot for SPL link.
However I don't understand why people don't want adapt their style carryng BP counters. If something evolve we have to adapt to it. this is my opinion (I don't speak english very well, sorry man)

 

[TFL]

I belive you and yes I'm a new user but i can't read "ban BP because people hate it". It's a stupid reason. Thanks a lot for SPL link.
However I don't understand why people don't want adapt their style carryng BP counters. If something evolve we have to adapt to it. this is my opinion (I don't speak english very well, sorry man)

It's because the only way to adapt to it = using certain hyper offense teams or 'gimmick' mons that put you at a disadvantage when playing someone that has not prepared for BP. And when you consider the liklihood of playing it, there's no reason to. From what I've seen, you're just better off accepting the loss and moving on (referring to the ladder, because that's where BP is most common).

 

[Stathakis]

Stop right here. First you bring up people praising Denisss and deflecting the issue, and right after you bring up your own hatred towards Baton Pass as an argument.

What you or everybody else hate is unimportant.
I'm pretty sure most of us hated Jirachi's paraflinch shenanigans in the previous generations, but that hate was never used as an argument against its legitimacy in OU.

If anything what needs to stop is this irrational aversion towards any playstyle that isn't part of the holy trinity of hyper offense, balance and stall.

"hate" is a quick way to say "think is terrible for the metagame, for reasons outlined in many detailed posts early in this thread that I don't want to repeat." I don't mean hate rooted in emotion.

please don't use my word choice as a way to discount my entire argument. if you want to see the rest of my argument, I can link you to my posts or any of the others with similar arguments, or you can read the rest of the thread.

 

[looiiyut]

It's because the only way to adapt to it = using certain hyper offense teams or 'gimmick' mons that put you at a disadvantage when playing someone that has not prepared for BP. And when you consider the liklihood of playing it, there's no reason to. From what I've seen, you're just better off accepting the loss and moving on (referring to the ladder, because that's where BP is most common).

You think that BP is unhealty for the OU metagame instead I think that it's an opportunity to improve myself building a team with "gimmick" 'mon that give me one chance against all playstyle. I can be in error but I prefer to have the 30% of possibilities vs stall, balance, HO and BP instead of 50% vs stall, balance, HO and 0% vs BP.
I respect you, Stathakis or Subject 18 that support your opinions with good points but I'm stubborn, it's my character.
In my country, we say "il mondo è bello perchè é vario" and I can translate into "the world is beautiful because people face the same problem in very different ways"

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Ok well congrats Im finally pissed off, I cant even test a fucking team without running into CANCER, there is no argument that could possibly hope to convince anyone with a brain that baton pass still isnt broken.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-138119262

If you are wondering what game put me over the edge...I am particularly upset because deo-s did NOTHING this game. It got ohkod turn 1 but all this fkn team needs is ONE single free turn, and it wins. So no, banning deo-s isnt going to help. Nothing will except option 3 or banning baton pass. All the arguments have been made in this thread, and all the logical ones came from people who want to ban baton pass. Nothing else beneficial can come from this thread, so I would like to lock it, because I think the rest of you are trolls or illogical, not to be rude on a personal level but I am just sick of poor half-assed arguments. I dont know if I can lock my thread, but if a mod reads this, please lock it.

Edit: Id like to point out that I am not touching the ladder until something is done. I dont know what else to do but wait and pray honestly...its sad.

 

[Scentoon]

I can't beat BP so I come here to whine. :(((

The new BP is very much beatable if you know what to expect from them.
It's like any other playstyles except that it's much more predictable, and that's coming from a long-time BP player. :D

 

[Subject 18]

The new BP is very much beatable if you know what to expect from them.
It's like any other playstyles except that it's much more predictable, and that's coming from a long-time BP player. :D

Have you read anything that I and others have said at all?? No one said it's not unbeatable, read my previous posts along with what Stathakis has said, because we've both addressed your point.

 

[Scentoon]

Have you read anything that I and others have said at all?? No one said it's not unbeatable, read my previous posts along with what Stathakis has said, because we've both addressed your point.

ok

You and several others still don't understand that no one is saying that Baton Pass is unbeatable because there are ways to beat those teams but answer me this: If you don't carry those "counters" of ways to beat BP, can you outplay the opponent and win? The answer is no, you cannot.

Actually, the answer is yes. With the new BP you don't even need to carry specific counters to beat it. A simple Thundurus+Bisharp which is in every team can break the chain as long as you know how BP works. :)

Since when does Unaware Quagsire counter BP???

Do you actually play the game at all? If so, you would know that Unaware Quag is a counter since Haze is a thing.

 

[TIZNE]

Ok well congrats Im finally pissed off, I cant even test a fucking team without running into CANCER, there is no argument that could possibly hope to convince anyone with a brain that baton pass still isnt broken.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-138119262

If you are wondering what game put me over the edge...I am particularly upset because deo-s did NOTHING this game. (...)

This one is actually good proof about the brokeness of Scolipede + BP. It's support is way too good, it's what make the threats unmanageable.

Deos-S brokeness was irrelevant.
Espeon was not even used.
Ingrain was irrevelant, well, it's locking effect. It was just the healing what mattered, so it could as well been water ring

 

[Rainman Legends]

ok

Do you actually play the game at all? If so, you would know that Unaware Quag is a counter since Haze is a thing.

Stored Power absolutely rapes Quagsire since Stored Power has the BP of the boosts, but not the actual boosts themselves. Even with one or two speed boosts and a calm mind, quagsire will take a fuckload of damage or outright die from Stored Power. Its a check, not a counter.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

Actually, the answer is yes. With the new BP you don't even need to carry specific counters to beat it. A simple Thundurus+Bisharp which is in every team can break the chain as long as you know how BP works. :)

Carrying 2 specific Mons is a very specific counter. They don't really fit on stall and they shouldn't be mandatory on offensive teams just because you need an out for 1 team. In general, being asked to carry specific Pokemon to deal with 1 team (I say team not team archetype since no one seems to try and modify Denisss's original team when using full BP) is a clear sign of unhealthy overcentralization and stifles team diversity, something that everyone can appreciate.

Do you actually play the game at all? If so, you would know that Unaware Quag is a counter since Haze is a thing.

This was discussed very thoroughly by players much better than I am in the original suspect thread. Here's the summary: Haze Quagsire at best only checks BP for the reason stated above. In addition, since it has Unaware, against other teams Haze is practically a dead move on Quagsire, and he really needs Recover/Scald/Earthquake/Toxic to maximize what he can take on 1v1.

Before you post too many more counter arguments, you should read this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tions-to-nerf-full-baton-pass-chains.3504331/. There were many arguments for not doing anything to Baton Pass and many were refuted by well-informed, skilled players. If your argument is found in the thread, you probably shouldn't bring it up. A lot of players are tired of rehashing old arguments.

 

[Scentoon]

Even with one or two speed boosts and a calm mind, quagsire will take a fuckload of damage or outright die from Stored Power.

That line basically sums up the experience the people posting in this thread have with BP.
You sure seem to know what you are talking about, do your calcs before posting. :-))

Carrying 2 specific Mons is a very specific counter.

I said Bisharp+Thundurus but I could have very well said other pokemons.
Also, I never said you had to run Quag to beat BP, just brought up the fact that if someone had a Haze Quag against BP, it's a counter.

252 SpA Espeon

k

 

[Rainman Legends]

That line basically sums up the experience the people posting in this thread have with BP.
You sure seem to know what you are talking about, do your calcs before posting. :-))

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 417-492 (105.8 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (2 speed boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 2 Calm Minds)

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 325-384 (82.4 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (2 Speed Boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 1 Calm Mind)

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (1 Calm Mind, 2 Speed Boosts)

Quag cannot switch into espeon, and quag cannot repeatedly spam Haze unless it wants to lose to a PP stall war. Quag also cannot do anything to another one of BP members, Vaporeon, since Vappy can just sub to avoid Toxic and just spam Acid Armor/Work Up until Quaggy runs out of haze.

 

[Albacore]

If people still think Haze Quag beats BP, I think it's about time we close this thread, because clearly, we're getting nowhere -.-

(in case you couldn't guess, BP just PP stalls Quagsire who literally cannot touch the BP team at all and that's it)

 

[Rotosect]

This one is actually good proof about the brokeness of Scolipede + BP. It's support is way too good, it's what make the threats unmanageable.

Deos-S brokeness was irrelevant.
Espeon was not even used.
Ingrain was irrevelant, well, it's locking effect. It was just the healing what mattered, so it could as well been water ring

It would be interesting to see how a pre-nerf BP chain would play out with Ninjask instead of Scolipede. Without Iron Defense, not to mention the 4x SR weakness, I reckon that they would be quite manageable.

 

[pws72000]

This Bitch serious? We make good arguements and you respond with wondrous replies such as "k" and attack the user instead of making good replies. I've seen Denisses use BP against threats such as Shedinja, Haze Quagsire, Haze Greninja and whatever else you can think of. The only one that actually worked was Taunt+Haze Honchkrow which can be classified as "Dead Weight" against anything not called Baton Pass. Maybe its you who should be the one getting more experience with Baton Pass.

calm down, calm down. don't give him more attention than he's worth. What's important here is what we do and how we address what we're doing.

Very informed users on this thread have already made valid arguments that DIRECTLY CITE the link between scolipede and his pals as the root of the "cancer". (btw, not the best nickname. Nicks like this only encourage emotionally-charged discussion that usually isn't being backed by evidence)

Pocket, in particular, made a fantastic case for complex bans, based on the utilitarian nature of BP chain teams that, in this case, make traditional simple bans an impracticality, AT THE VERY LEAST. The sole exception here may be Scoli, as it's double dancing is what makes the chain "go". Others have also noted the merit of its quickpass potential, but any problems that arise from this need more testing before any conclusion can be drawn.

As my earlier posts have numerously stated, simple bans create collateral damage, regardless of how insignificant or small you may think that damage is. That is a fact. Whether the pros outweigh the cons (IN ANY SCENARIO) is something that ideally shouldn't even enter into the argument of "banning x vs. doing something else". Otherwise, you're passively admitting that collateral damage exists wholly as a result of its being a victim of something bigger aka "We won't be missing this, because I don't see anyone using it/it's not high enough on the Viability Rankings!" aka for no good reason. (And no, being a crapmon outside of a niche or two is not a valid excuse) This is a logical fallacy that has no competitive basis for existence, and even worse, stifles creativity! The only guaranteed benefit offered by simple bans are their convenience. Could simply banning Scolipede or Espeon or anything else end the threat we face today? Almost certainly, but at what cost? That's the question that demands answering before any other decisions are made.

 

[hyperbeem]

One of the problems in the logic of those denying the brokenness of Baton Pass is that their evidence comes from a highly unskilled background that blinds them to the severity of wasting Pokemon on specialized "counters" to the playstyle. Any decent player can win on the ladder with a UU team, let alone an OU team sacrificing one or two slots to deal with BP.

 

[Rainman Legends]

It would be interesting to see how a pre-nerf BP chain would play out with Ninjask instead of Scolipede. Without Iron Defense, not to mention the 4x SR weakness, I reckon that they would be quite manageable.

I actually used a BP team very similar to Denisses's team in Gen 5. It was by a user named Hiphiphooray. It used Ninjask and had no Sylveon to ease against special attackers and had to fend off Rain Hyper Offense. I actually did really well with that team considering my shit prediction skills and Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump being everywhere. It was exactly as it was this gen: First five turns determine the entire game. Once I get an Acid Armor off with a couple of speed boosts, the game was basically determined. Keep in mind, Gen 5 baton pass teams were confined to using HP fighting/Stored Power instead of Pixilate Hyper Voice/Stored Power. The fact that Fairys didnt exist, Perma weather existed, and you were forced to use Ninjask made BP barely manageable.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

I don't know if BP is broken to the point of something needing to be banned/nerfed (although it probably is) nor do I care that much about whether it gets banned/nerfed or not, but I don't think that the "even if you're unprepared for a certain threat/playstyle, you can still beat that threat/playstyle without using a counter, unlike when facing Baton Pass" counter-counterban-argument is a good or true one. This technically means that if I come into OU and use a team of Rattata/Raticate/Yanma/Swirlix/Wigglytuff/Murkrow and I face a well-made serious team, I actually have a chance to win against that team without tons of hax, which I obviously don't. Pokemon aren't OU viable because they have good stats or movepool (as things like Shaymin, Darmanitan, or in more extreme cases Regigigas, Slaking show); they're OU viable because they deal with other threats (mainly HO threats in the current metagame but mainly stall threats in something like the GSC metagame), so each Pokemon that's viable in OU actually has a chance at "checking HO" or even a setup sweeper or something. So really everything that anyone would use is prepared for HO, and things are viable because they're prepared for HO, hence why Murkrow is not viable.

The other counter-counterban-argument of Baton Pass being able to beat its "counters" doesn't automatically make it worthy of a ban either, because most Pokemon or playstyle can beat their supposed "counters" as well. An example of a Pokemon in Mega Charizard X (who unfortunately is pretty ban-worthy so not the best example but whatever), who can use Outrage to beat many of its counters. An example of a playstyle would be stall, which is definitely capable of beating stallbreakers with good prediction.

I'm also kind of surprised that it was considered broken last generation too, since it always seemed rather easy for me to beat (though I was probably playing against really bad players). Ninjask and Vaporeon share weaknesses, Ninjask has a 4x weakness, strong Water-types with coverage seem like they would be able to beat both of them, Venusaur could have probably beaten both of them, etc. Scolipede definitely seems like the most broken element (and in my opinion probably the only broken element) in Baton Pass chains (and outside of Baton Pass chains, its Baton Passing alone and even its late game cleaner set once Deoxys-S gets banned are pretty broken too) because of its ability to boost its Defense and Speed at the same time makes it pretty impossible to beat unless using a pool of 10 or so Pokemon (which you all already knew). Scolipede in particular is what I think is particularly broken and potentially overcentralizing about Baton Pass.

Also as I'm sure other people have said, the counterban-argument that Baton Pass is not impossible to beat doesn't matter because regardless of whether or not its impossible to beat, it's still (almost definitely) broken and potentially overcentralizing, and therefore a solution to nerf it should be found. Broken =/= impossible to beat. Deoxys-A is broken but is still destroyed by all priority, for example.

I meant this to be shorter since I guess it will probably turn out to be wrong because I've overlooked some detail, but whatever. Also sorry if all of what I'm saying has already been said.

 

[TIZNE]

(...)
Could simply banning Scolipede or Espeon or anything else end the threat we face today? Almost certainly, but at what cost? That's the question that demands answering before any other decisions are made.

Yes, totally agree. But the question has been answered with the voting after the suspect: The majority considered that the cost was too high.
Option 3 would have caused unnecessary collateral damage.

Banning only Scolipede + BP will let the BP strategy to still be viable competitively just as in Gen5, which should be the aim. Not to nuke the strategy. Also causing very little collateral damage. It could even work if the ban goes Speed Boost+BP if we fear ninjask...

 

[Karxrida]

Yes, totally agree. But the question has been answered with the voting after the suspect: The majority considered that the cost was too high.
Option 3 would have caused unnecessary collateral damage.

Banning only Scolipede + BP will let the BP strategy to still be viable competitively just as in Gen5, which should be the aim. Not to nuke the strategy. Also causing very little collateral damage. It could even work if the ban goes Speed Boost+BP if we fear ninjask...

The collateral is non-existent, and bans shouldn't be trying to account for any possible damage anyway. For example, banning Deo-D will certainly affect the viability of HO and especially Bisharp. Should we not ban something so broken just because it make a playstyle and/or some mons good? Fuck no, we kill it dead. Ban the move.

 

[Blizzardhail]

Can we just ban the baton pass cancer already? I'm actually a BP player but seriously it's really bad for the metagame. When you have to run bad pokemon to "counter" or even just check the chain is when you know something is wrong. You have to essentially run 5 pokemon because your BP counter or check is deadweight against other types of teams. When you know you have to do this because there is no other way to even reliably check a BP chain. Also with 5v6 against a good player with reasonable matchup is almost a guarenteed loss. BP is matchup reliant as hell. Collateral damage is at a minimum. In other words: Kill the garbage playstyle

 

[Scentoon]

252 SpA Espeon Stored Power

Espeon in BP never runs 252 SpA but k.

 

[13ulbasaur]

Espeon in BP never runs 252 SpA but k.

Ok, let's change it to the spread that Denisss has on his Espeon.

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 309-364 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(2 speed boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 2 Calm Minds)

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(2 Speed Boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 1 Calm Mind)

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (1 Calm Mind, 2 Speed Boosts)

That's still very hefty, and it's very easy to get higher than 100 Bp on Stored Power with just a little more Speed Boost stalling from Scolipede, or with an Iron Defense, or with whatever else any other Pokemon has to pass.