Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Ok, let's change it to the spread that Denisss has on his Espeon.

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 309-364 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(2 speed boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 2 Calm Minds)

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(2 Speed Boosts, 1 Iron Defense, 1 Calm Mind)

0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (1 Calm Mind, 2 Speed Boosts)

That's still very hefty, and it's very easy to get higher than 100 Bp on Stored Power with just a little more Speed Boost stalling from Scolipede, or with an Iron Defense, or with whatever else any other Pokemon has to pass.

Scolipede can only pass so much speed though between having to spam Substitute and not having Lefties. Also, all you have to do is switch in a Dark-type or anything that deals with Psychic like Aegislash for example. Then Espeon can't do anything, is forced to BP out to something else, so then Quag comes in safely and Hazes. If you get up SR at any point, Scolipede gets worn down super fast and you'll only need to Haze 3 to 4 times in one match (depending on how often it Subs/comes in on SR) before Scoli bites the dust.

These calcs just don't prove much in practice. And it's easy to get many boosts against a pokemon with Haze? Please explain :x The way I see it, the BP user messes around with Scolipede while you just attack with anything that breaks its Sub, then you bring in Quagsire, they pass out to Espeon as you Haze, then they have to pass out without any boosts because Espy can't do anything to Quag while you always break the Sub. I mean if there's any flaws in my point of view please point them out, just keep prediction out of it.

 

[13ulbasaur]

Scolipede can only pass so much speed though between having to spam Substitute and not having Lefties. Also, all you have to do is switch in a Dark-type or anything that deals with Psychic like Aegislash for example. Then Espeon can't do anything, is forced to BP out to something else, so then Quag comes in safely and Hazes. If you get up SR at any point, Scolipede gets worn down super fast and you'll only need to Haze 3 to 4 times in one match (depending on how often it Subs/comes in on SR) before Scoli bites the dust.

These calcs just don't prove much in practice. And it's easy to get many boosts against a pokemon with Haze? Please explain :x The way I see it, the BP user messes around with Scolipede while you just attack with anything that breaks its Sub, then you bring in Quagsire, they pass out to Espeon as you Haze, then they have to pass out without any boosts because Espy can't do anything to Quag while you always break the Sub. I mean if there's any flaws in my point of view please point them out, just keep prediction out of it.

I was honestly just putting the calcs there for Scen because I have nothing else to do at this time of night.
Anyway..
Why would someone baton Pass into Espeon when Quagsire is out? Quagsire out against BP = Obvious Haze = Don't do that.
There are multiple scenarios. Obviously you aren't gonna set up with stored power espeon when you know there's a dark type or something else lying in the waits, that's like thinking it would be a good idea to set up Sigilyph when there's any dark types around. You can go and deal with those with your other Pokes. You can also Baton Pass the boosts to other Pokes besides Espeon, lots of other Pokes can wreck things with a couple of speed boosts. For me, the calcs show that Quagsire cannot always safely switch in and could take a hefty chunk of damage if it gets hit by Stored Power, but that's situational and a gamble for the Quag because who knows the enemy might just keep setting up. It's also important to note that now you can't have Baton Pass on all 6 Pokemon, so it's very easy to just slot in a Poke that can deal with Quaggy or other Dark types without being as concerned about having mono-baton pass.

Anyway I'm not gonna add anymore to the discussion, and leave the rest to players who are more knowledgeable about it. It's getting a bit late and I really shouldn't be trying this when I'm tired. I'm gonna wake up tomorrow morning and look at this post and question what i was on.

 

[looiiyut]

Scolipede can only pass so much speed though between having to spam Substitute and not having Lefties. Also, all you have to do is switch in a Dark-type or anything that deals with Psychic like Aegislash for example. Then Espeon can't do anything, is forced to BP out to something else, so then Quag comes in safely and Hazes. If you get up SR at any point, Scolipede gets worn down super fast and you'll only need to Haze 3 to 4 times in one match (depending on how often it Subs/comes in on SR) before Scoli bites the dust.

These calcs just don't prove much in practice. And it's easy to get many boosts against a pokemon with Haze? Please explain :x The way I see it, the BP user messes around with Scolipede while you just attack with anything that breaks its Sub, then you bring in Quagsire, they pass out to Espeon as you Haze, then they have to pass out without any boosts because Espy can't do anything to Quag while you always break the Sub. I mean if there's any flaws in my point of view please point them out, just keep prediction out of it.

Watch this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119037709

Denis vs Dauude sandstorm (do you know Dauude Sandstorm?). In this battle Denis use the full BP chain not the new semi chain but he use only Scolipede-vaporeon-espeon-smeargle. Around turn 40 Quag is out.
Stop please, Quagsire isn't a BP counter! It doesn't carry incisive attacks, it's slow and predictable.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I know I said I wasn't going to post again but this uninformed argument that uses praises for denissss to deflect the blame from BP has to stop.

let me get one thing straight with you: people have known about --and hated-- bp since generation 3. nobody has ever done anything about it because until now, it hasn't been worth the effort. until now, almost nobody used BP in tournaments or in the ladder. the reasons people hate it haven't changed-- simply the number of players using it. I hate BP for the same exact reasons as I did months, even years ago when nobody used it. the difference is now, it has saturated the ladder, giving me a reason to speak up about my hatred. yes, without denisss there would be no discussion, not because bp isn't cancer without denisss, but because bp would not be a widespread enough cancer to be worth talking about.

to stretch the cancer analogy just a bit further, BP was a localized, contained, and rare tumor up until a few months ago. It was still cancer, but it was not actually having a big effect on the metagame. Denissss did not create the cancer, he simply turned it into the malignant tumor that has now spread to the entire ladder.

THAT is why there is an uproar now when there wasn't one before. because now people have to fight this shit on a daily basis. do you think people would have wanted to ban swagplay if nobody ever used it? swagplay was a problem since the moves were released, but up until it became popular it wasn't a big enough problem to warrant the effort to ban it. baton pass is the same way.

So in the end, Smogon makes metagame decisions based on emotion instead of reason?

So in the end, the tiering process doesn't aim to balance the meta, but to make the community members feel good about it? The Smogon Ruleset is not meant to create a balanced game, but to make a couple guys on an IRC chat happy?

Good to know.

 

[Scentoon]

Watch this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-119037709
Denis vs Dauude sandstorm (do you know Dauude Sandstorm?). In this battle Denis use the full BP chain not the new semi chain but he use only Scolipede-vaporeon-espeon-smeargle. Around turn 40 Quag is out.
Stop please, Quagsire isn't a BP counter! It doesn't carry incisive attacks, it's slow and predictable.

The replay isn't relevant at all but ok.

And here's a relevant one if you want: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136130351

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

The replay isn't relevant at all but ok.

And here's a relevant one if you want: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136130351

just like to say that baton passer got out predicted pretty badly. They had numerous chances to spore quag and failed to capitalize on them.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I should be ignoring this but I feel bad for those of you feeding the trolls, here is a hint: If a person has an account with 7 messages and all of them are retarded..he is a troll.I think the people that feed the trolls are more frustrating to watch than trolls themselves. Please do not respond to Scentoon or anybody else that is clearly just trying to get attention, it decreases the quality of the thread. We all know haze quagsire isnt a counter to BP, I am getting tired of repeating myself but I feel like I have to.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I was honestly just putting the calcs there for Scen because I have nothing else to do at this time of night.
Anyway..
Why would someone baton Pass into Espeon when Quagsire is out? Quagsire out against BP = Obvious Haze = Don't do that.
There are multiple scenarios. Obviously you aren't gonna set up with stored power espeon when you know there's a dark type or something else lying in the waits, that's like thinking it would be a good idea to set up Sigilyph when there's any dark types around. You can go and deal with those with your other Pokes. You can also Baton Pass the boosts to other Pokes besides Espeon, lots of other Pokes can wreck things with a couple of speed boosts. For me, the calcs show that Quagsire cannot always safely switch in and could take a hefty chunk of damage if it gets hit by Stored Power, but that's situational and a gamble for the Quag because who knows the enemy might just keep setting up. It's also important to note that now you can't have Baton Pass on all 6 Pokemon, so it's very easy to just slot in a Poke that can deal with Quaggy or other Dark types without being as concerned about having mono-baton pass.

That's a completely different story though. If Espeon can't sweep, the Scoli+Espy strategy is effectively neutered. Everyone can say "well you have other pokemon to deal with Dark-types" but then you're just missing the point. It's like saying "Latios is broken, even though it can't touch Aegislash. But you have other teammates for Aegi right?" Please no replies to this example, it just showcases how the logic is flawed here regarding BP. Nobody's going to run a team with Latios without bringing something to deal with Aegislash, that's common sense and does not make a pokemon more broken.

Also, BP is limited to 3 pokemon on Smogon so what else are you going to pass into against Quag? You have Scolipede out, Espeon is a giveaway. That doesn't leave much room for options lol. Possibly Smeargle, possibly Sylveon/Vaporeon. Neither is too difficult to deal with.

Just many hollow words imo, and no convincing arguments to say BP is broken. I see people saying "any mediocre player can get a high rank using BP", without backing it up (barring some self-declared BP amateurs that supposedly got a high rank using BP). And the OU ladder is garbage, so even then it doesn't mean much. And replays including Dennissss prove even less, he's far from a mediocre player so it's only to be expected that he does well. (looiiyut2)

EDIT: MegaScizor: lol :]

 

[Subject 18]

So in the end, Smogon makes metagame decisions based on emotion instead of reason?

So in the end, the tiering process doesn't aim to balance the meta, but to make the community members feel good about it? The Smogon Ruleset is not meant to create a balanced game, but to make a couple guys on an IRC chat happy?

Good to know.

LOOOOOOL. Can you actually read the whole thread before making trying to act like you know what you're talking about? Stathakis explained what he meant by "hate" on the next page. Instead of reading to fill your confirmation bias, read everything before posting because often times it has been addressed. No one is making decisions based on their emoticons towards something. I'll make it easy for you and quote his post so you can his words.

"hate" is a quick way to say "think is terrible for the metagame, for reasons outlined in many detailed posts early in this thread that I don't want to repeat." I don't mean hate rooted in emotion.

please don't use my word choice as a way to discount my entire argument. if you want to see the rest of my argument, I can link you to my posts or any of the others with similar arguments, or you can read the rest of the thread.

 

[looiiyut]

That's a completely different story though. If Espeon can't sweep, the Scoli+Espy strategy is effectively neutered. Everyone can say "well you have other pokemon to deal with Dark-types" but then you're just missing the point. It's like saying "Latios is broken, even though it can't touch Aegislash. But you have other teammates for Aegi right?" Please no replies to this example, it just showcases how the logic is flawed here regarding BP. Nobody's going to run a team with Latios without bringing something to deal with Aegislash, that's common sense and does not make a pokemon more broken.

Also, BP is limited to 3 pokemon on Smogon so what else are you going to pass into against Quag? You have Scolipede out, Espeon is a giveaway. That doesn't leave much room for options lol. Possibly Smeargle, possibly Sylveon/Vaporeon. Neither is too difficult to deal with.

Just many hollow words imo, and no convincing arguments to say BP is broken. I see people saying "any mediocre player can get a high rank using BP", without backing it up (barring some self-declared BP amateurs that supposedly got a high rank using BP). And the OU ladder is garbage, so even then it doesn't mean much. And replays including Dennissss prove even less, he's far from a mediocre player so it's only to be expected that he does well. (looiiyut2)

EDIT: MegaScizor: lol :]

This is why I chose this replay proving that quagsire isn't a BP counter and not a battle log with a "common" BP player.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

The replay isn't relevant at all but ok.

And here's a relevant one if you want: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-136130351

Turn 14
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Quagsire: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Yet he chose to sub.

Turn 18
Again obvious quagsire switch in and he doesn't calm mind.

Horrible prediction with smeargles spore.

Turn 26
And subbing totally worked the first two times lets do it again.

Turn 39 ^

Probably the worst play I've seen from a BP player in ages. Dennis or anybody halfway decent would've kicked the stall players ass.

 

[Scentoon]

Turn 14
0 SpA Espeon Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Quagsire: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Yet he chose to sub.

Turn 18
Again obvious quagsire switch in and he doesn't calm mind.

For what purpose though? After a Haze, the Espeon can't kill and the Quag can just recover the HP back.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

For what purpose though? After a Haze, the Espeon can't kill and the Quag can just recover the HP back.

It would've been far more effective to keep quagsire in longer to wear it out than letting it haze and switch.

 

[TIZNE]

Oh wow, this thread keeps repeating itself every time a troll comes in trying to deny what has already reached a consensus...

On topic: Do you guys think that just banning Scolipede + BP would solve this issue? Why or why not?
I think that since Ninjask can't buff it's defense, it's literally half as useful as Scolipede.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

We don't do complex bans for a single pokemon. If scolipede is broken then just ban it, don't do stuff like "this broken poke can't use this move/ability." We didn't do it with Blaziken (would be fine without Speed Boost) or Mega MILF (would be fine without Power Up Punch and Seismic Toss.)

 

[Mango Smoothie]

On topic: Do you guys think that just banning Scolipede + BP would solve this issue? Why or why not?

Banning Scolipede+BP I think would solve both the BP problem and what WebBowser brought up with Scolipede being able to (extremely reliably) pass speed boosts. No one is going to deny that Scolipede is an insane upgrade from Ninjask in so many ways, so passing speed is effective and pretty easy. Being able to spam protect+sub and possibly Iron Defense if you get a sub up isn't that hard (as shown by many replays). Getting rid of Scolipede's ability to passively boost and then pass speed would make getting the crucial defense+speed boosts harder, and this would make it harder for the 'auto-pilot' early game scenario because the BP player would actually need to take risks getting speed. Granted, I'm not sure how 'risky' this would turn out to be since Scizor can boost speed and defense, has better stats and reliable recovery, but what sells Scolipede is passive speed boosting, so I think it should be enough, at least used in junction with the limit (since you can get pokemon like zapdos who add better defensive synergy and speed boosting). This also keeps the LO Cleaner in tact since it isn't an offender, avoiding unnecessary collateral.

 

[D-Ssain]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-138524995

Denissss is using fingers stall team on the ladder and here is a replay of him beating his own team with haze quagsire/ clear smog amoongus.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-138524995

Denissss is using fingers stall team on the ladder and here is a replay of him beating his own team with haze quagsire/ clear smog amoongus.

I don't think anyone thinks you don't have a decent match-up against BP if you're simultaneously using Haze Quagisre, CS Amoonguss and a trickscarfer.

You're missing the point. No one is saying BP is unbeatable. There are checks to it, but the thing is that if you don't have those checks, you lose and there's zero room for outplaying your opponent unlike basically every single other archetype.

 

[D-Ssain]

I don't think anyone thinks you don't have a decent match-up against BP if you're simultaneously using Haze Quagisre, CS Amoonguss and a trickscarfer.

You're missing the point. No one is saying BP is unbeatable. There are checks to it, but the thing is that if you don't have those checks, you lose and there's zero room for outplaying your opponent unlike basically every single other archetype.

I don't care either way if bp is nerfed or not but this also goes for balance vs stall. You literally have to carry dedicated wall breakers to beat stall if you run a balanced team.

On another note this Deoxys suspect test will not kill baton pass. If the OU council really wants to nerf BP they should make it so Espeon cannot receive a baton pass.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't care either way if bp is nerfed or not but this also goes for balance vs stall. You literally have to carry dedicated wall breakers to beat stall if you run a balanced team.

On another note this Deoxys suspect test will not kill baton pass. If the OU council really wants to nerf BP they should make it so Espeon cannot receive a baton pass.

Wallbreakers can fuck up Offense easy, which is a major difference difference. BP counters do shit to other playstyles.

Also, Espeon not being able to receive a Baton Pass is a unnecessary complex ban when we could just ban something (take your pick).

1.) Ban Scolipede, since it sets up on all but like 3 things in OU and can make anything unrevengeable.

2.) Ban Espeon, since it's the only reason why normal counters can't work because lol Magic Bounce.

3.) Ban both.

4.) Ban the move, since it's clearly broken on multiple Pokemon. Fuck collateral.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Wallbreakers can fuck up Offense easy, which is a major difference difference. BP counters do shit to other playstyles.

Yeah because Quagsire and Taunt Thundurus-I are garbage in the current meta obviously.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

You're missing the point. No one is saying BP is unbeatable. There are checks to it, but the thing is that if you don't have those checks, you lose and there's zero room for outplaying your opponent unlike basically every single other archetype.

Like I said in the last page, this (the bold part) is not true. If I do not have any "checks" to HO/stall/balance/whatever in my team, that means that I am basically running a shitmons team. There is no chance of me winning unless I hax the opponent badly, just like with BP.

One of the problems with Baton Pass is that while most Pokemon do have a chance at "checking" it, very few of those Pokemon are not easily beaten when the opponent picks any other Pokemon than Scolipede to start the game/chain or Espeon to end it, making a small pool of Pokemon that are capable of beating BP even when they're outpredicted. If a BP player outpredicts another player then just about every bit of momentum that other player had is completely gone (unless they're using a specialized check/counter), which is by far the most problematic thing about BP IMO, and is what makes many other Pokemon broken as well (e.g. opponent has a standard Yzard team so you send out your Yzard counter, it's revealed to be Xzard therefore you lose, Deoxys-S comes in for the revenge kill so you switch, it's revealed to be screens Deoxys-S therefore you lose and similar situations).

Wallbreakers can fuck up Offense easy, which is a major difference difference. BP counters do shit to other playstyles.

I don't think that this is necessarily true. Hard-hitters like Mega Pinsir or whatever aren't shit against other playstyles. Fast/priority taunters like Talonflame and Thundurus are extremely good. Even Haze Quagsire and Haze/Taunt Murkrow can support their team by removing CharX/MegaDos boosts and stallbreaking respectively.

As far as banning Scolipede + BP goes, I think that while banning Scolipede + BP would solve the issue, it would just be better to ban Scolipede outright because of the reasons that Sergeant Spooky said.

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah because Quagsire and Taunt Thundurus-I are garbage in the current meta obviously.

Haze Quagsire is and Thundurus can't Taunt Espeon.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

Quagsire doesn't really need a second damaging move and Haze has other uses too. Thundurus can't Taunt Espeon, but Espeon isn't exactly hard to force out. Unless the wallbreakers/stallbreakers are under screens or something they're not really going to sweep an offensive team anyways (unless they're Mega Mawile), since the whole point of hyper offense is killing slower Pokemon or using priority to always KO first.

 

[Karxrida]

Quagsire doesn't really need a second damaging move and Haze has other uses too. Thundurus can't Taunt Espeon, but Espeon isn't exactly hard to force out. Unless the wallbreakers/stallbreakers are under screens or something they're not really going to sweep an offensive team anyways (unless they're Mega Mawile), since the whole point of hyper offense is killing slower Pokemon or using priority to always KO first.

You do realize running Haze on a Mon with fucking Unaware is one of the stupidest things ever, right?
Also, it does need that second move to beat Zard X, since Scald can't burn it and only hits neutrally.