Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf

[Yiggaman]

My whole take on this is........it's pokemon. A game that is not fair. Hax happens and a whole bunch of other bs. We keep trying to keep this game fair when it really isn't a fair game. It's based on luck. You ban baton pass and then people will always find something else that's just as cheesy. We have to just live with certain things. Baton pass is only as good as the player who uses it. In this video http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-131835960 the baton passing team was just played better than the other team. You have to just make plays if your going to be a good player. Banning baton pass is not going to help you reach number 1 if you were losing to it before. You will still lose to the better player.

 

[Pocket]

Baton Pass has several uses outside of BP chains. Dry/quick passing is a legitimate strategy that existed since Gen 2 with great users to utilize them. Unlike Swagger, Baton Pass has strategic and competitive value to it, not dictated by RNG. Move-wise, Swagger and Baton Pass are TOTALLY different beasts. Stating that banning MB + BP and SB + BP would be good as killing Baton Pass is a VERY ignorant thing to say.

If anything banning Baton Pass essentially kills the usage of Espeon / Ninjask, so mine as well ban these Pokemon that would be "brain dead" without Baton Pass anyway, rather than unnecessarily nerfing 20+ perfectly non-broken and viable Pokemon. Or simply go with Option 3 that doesn't ban anything while removing the shared broken elements in all abhored BP chain team archetypes.

Basically, I am fine with either banning 2 Pokemon (Espeon and Scolipede) or going with Option 3, but I prefer Option 3, since it also culls Mega Absol + Ninjask for any potential resurrection of dEnNiSs-style BP teams

 

[jpw234]

Baton Pass has several uses outside of BP chains. Dry/quick passing is a legitimate strategy that existed since Gen 2 with great users to utilize them. Unlike Swagger, Baton Pass has strategic and competitive value to it, not dictated by RNG. Move-wise, Swagger and Baton Pass are TOTALLY different beasts. Stating that banning MB + BP and SB + BP would be good as killing Baton Pass is a VERY ignorant thing to say.

If anything banning Baton Pass essentially kills the usage of Espeon / Ninjask, so mine as well ban these Pokemon that would be "brain dead" without Baton Pass anyway, rather than unnecessarily nerfing 20+ perfectly non-broken and viable Pokemon. Or simply go with Option 3 that doesn't ban anything while removing the shared broken elements in all abhored BP chain team archetypes.

You made a comparison to a playstyle. Banning MB + BP and SB + BP will kill the BP chain playstyle, that's the goal, anyway.

If the problem with Baton Pass is not the move itself but rather the "BP chain", and dry/quick passing are the legitimate uses of Baton Pass, then we should make a ban that explicitly targets chains, rather than making a ban that simply targets the best pokemon in the chain. Why can't Espeon or Scolipede be dry/quick passers? If that's the argument, the proposed ban isn't going after the right stuff.

I've got to run but I'll be back with a suggestion later.

 

[Pocket]

Espeon and Scoliepede can be used as Dry/Quick Passers, as they've been in BW2, but I have very little sympathy for them. This is because they are the prime offenders that enable the current dEnNisS-stype BP chain teams (and don't kid yourself - Espeon aint seeing the light of day outside of BP chains). WebBowser has also made a reasonably strong case for Scolipede's ridiculous supportive qualities, so it may very well be problematic on its own, outside of the context of BP chains. They are the primary reasons for dEnNisS and other current BP-chain user's success, and therefore should be the target of elimination. I believe we should not try to save these two culprits.

tl;dr - Espeon would die in viability from any nerf in the current BP chain formats, while Scolipede may be "broken" on its own, so mine as well eliminate them both / go with Option 3.

 

[jpw234]

Okay, one last post before I'm gone until much later tonight.

I appreciate your post #327 Pocket because it makes an important clarification about your argument - namely, you believe there is a categorical distinction between the illegitimate/broken use of Baton Pass (in a chain), and the legitimate use(s) (dry and quickpassing), and you don't want a blanket ban that steps on both. However, there is a disconnect between that and your proposal, which also steps on the legitimate uses - in particular, Espeon highly appreciates being able to drypass to avoid Pursuit trapping, and Ninjask/Scolipede are quite reasonable quickpassers with Speed Boost.

If we want a ban that targets BP chains, we should do that. One cut-and-dry clause would be BP on one pokemon per team, which literally makes any "chain" impossible, and I think the edge-case of teams with more than one dry-passing pokemon can be pretty easily ignored (Edit: this also dodges the arbitrariness argument that you made against the limitation to 3 on a team, since it specifically is done to avoid any chaining at all). On the other hand, a more complex but precise ban would be to not allow a Pokemon that received Baton Pass to use Baton Pass (i.e. you can have Scolipede and Espeon with BP, but if you BP from Scolipede to Espeon, you have to switch from Espeon) which is a more literal ban on chaining but is harder to understand and implement. Either way, the increased precision of the ban is highly desirable because it makes the intent clear (it's a statement on the brokenness of BP chaining, rather than a statement on the brokenness of SB + BP or MB + BP) and avoids any possibility of undesirable "slippery sloping".

In your last post you raised the separate possibility of Scolipede being broken on its own; if that's the case, we should suspect it separately from Baton Pass, imo, but I also think that's a discussion for a separate thread.

 

[Pocket]

Good guess, but you actually presume wrongly about my stance. As stated in this post, I believe that people should have the freedom to design a "Baton Pass team" or a semi-bp team if they desire, as long as they are not using elements that broke these teams (Magic Bounce, Speed Boost, etc). Banning Baton Pass entirely or limiting the number of Baton Pass users to 1 or 2 imposes unnecessary restrictions to this game. So I am actually trying to preserve not only quick/dry passing strategies, but also team archetypes revolving around Baton Pass.

This is why it's easy for me to propose a ban/restriction on Espeon and Scolipede, because to me they are the Excadrill of BW2 sand or the Swift Swimmers of BW2 rain; If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken in the metagame. Why eliminate an entire playstyle when the cancerous elements can be easily identified and excised?

 

[Karxrida]

Good guess, but you actually presume wrongly about my stance. As stated in this post, I believe that people should have the freedom to design a "Baton Pass team" or a semi-bp team if they desire, as long as they are not using elements that broke these teams (Magic Bounce, Speed Boost, etc). Banning Baton Pass entirely or limiting the number of Baton Pass users to 1 or 2 imposes unnecessary restrictions to this game. So I am actually trying to preserve not only quick/dry passing strategies, but also team archetypes revolving around Baton Pass.

This is why it's easy for me to propose a ban/restriction on Espeon and Scolipede, because to me they are the Excadrill of BW2 sand or the Kingdra of BW2 rain; If a Pokemon is broken given the right team context, then it is broken in the metagame. Why eliminate an entire playstyle when the cancerous elements can be easily identified and excised?

Because nobody likes Baton Pass anyway and there wouldn't be too many people who cared if it was killed of as a team archetype anyway.

 

[Pocket]

Correction - nobody likes dEnNiSsS-style BP teams. You can't assume what people would think of this new BP team without Speed Boosters or Magic Bouncers, because those are almost unprecedented in OU. I guess it boils down to which we value more:

1) The ability to drypass/quickpass with Espeon and Scolipede
2) The ability to use more than one non-broken and viable BP users in a given team.

I value 2) more, because Espeon and Scolipede have left me a foul taste in my mouth, and I personally dont see them doing anything good for the metagame. (Espeon would just suck or may be relegated as a subpar Dual Screener if Deoxys-S gets banned; As WebBowser has demonstrated, Scolipede would still be a pain in the a$$ baton passing free Speed and Iron Defense boosts, which it can still accomplish with ease after some Dual Screens).

In the other hand, I believe (semi)-BP teams are a playstyle that players should have the freedom to build if they so desire IMO. Without the cancerous parts ofc. It would require some creativity and good teambuilding skills, but it may still prove to be an effective team strategy/win condition.

 

[Karxrida]

Correction - nobody likes dEnNiSsS-style BP teams. You can't assume what people would think of this new BP team without Speed Boosters or Magic Bouncers, because those are almost unprecedented in OU. I guess it boils down to which we value more:

1) The ability to drypass/quickpass with Espeon and Scolipede
2) The ability to use more than one non-broken and viable BP users in a given team.

I value 2) more, because Espeon and Scolipede have left me a foul taste in my mouth, and I personally dont see them doing anything good for the metagame. (Espeon would just suck or may be relegated as a subpar Dual Screener if Deoxys-S gets banned; As WebBowser has demonstrated, Scolipede would still be a pain in the a$$ baton passing free Speed and Iron Defense boosts, which it can still accomplish with ease after some Dual Screens).

In the other hand, I believe (semi)-BP teams are a playstyle that players should have the freedom to build if they so desire IMO. Without the cancerous parts ofc.

Could have sworn the general consensus was BP sucks.

About #2; how many OU viable Pokemon can use Baton Pass and actually run it in these "non-broken" ways? If there aren't any we shouldn't be trying to save a strategy that doesn't exist.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

HJK/Zen Headbutt/Baton Pass/coverage is a neat Medicham set cause it can pass as a counter comes in
BP is mentioned in Gliscor's analysis, though in context of full BP
Scolipede is really good at it ofc and I don't consider it broken when not paired with Espeon
NastyPass Togekiss was used in a Tour match at least once. Celebi can also do NastyPass
Baton Pass is mentioned in Mega Absol's analysis
Same with Mew
Venomoth is also ranked cause of QuiverPass but not sure if it would be if koko didn't ban it
Gorebyss does SmashPass. Never seen ANYONE use it but it's also ranked
BP is mentioned in Umbreon's analysis cause it lets it pass a wish to something that otherwise couldn't be passed to. Sylveon can also do this.

It's not a common sight in OU but it has uses outside of BP chains, as niche as they are. This is as opposed to Swagger, which I don't think has ever been mentioned in any analysis except for Liepard last gen.

 

[looiiyut]

Because nobody likes Baton Pass anyway and there wouldn't be too many people who cared if it was killed of as a team archetype anyway.

"Nobody likes BP so kill it" omg, great point, I like your idea! lol I don't like tomato so ban it, please.
I'm a Denis's fan! Am I the only one?
Without Denis, there would be no discussion and frustration. I have the solution: "Denis clause: dEnIsSsS and his creativity are banned"
I listed some BP counters and other users have demonstrated strong points and vulnerability of BP but never mind: the slogan is "Ban BP". it's simple avoid the problem.

 

[Stathakis]

"Nobody likes BP so kill it" omg, great point, I like your idea! lol I don't like tomato so ban it, please.
I'm a Denis's fan! Am I the only one?
Without Denis, there would be no discussion and frustration. I have the solution: "Denis clause: dEnIsSsS and his creativity are banned"
I listed some BP counters and other users have demonstrated strong points and vulnerability of BP but never mind: the slogan is "Ban BP". it's simple avoid the problem.

I know I said I wasn't going to post again but this uninformed argument that uses praises for denissss to deflect the blame from BP has to stop.

let me get one thing straight with you: people have known about --and hated-- bp since generation 3. nobody has ever done anything about it because until now, it hasn't been worth the effort. until now, almost nobody used BP in tournaments or in the ladder. the reasons people hate it haven't changed-- simply the number of players using it. I hate BP for the same exact reasons as I did months, even years ago when nobody used it. the difference is now, it has saturated the ladder, giving me a reason to speak up about my hatred. yes, without denisss there would be no discussion, not because bp isn't cancer without denisss, but because bp would not be a widespread enough cancer to be worth talking about.

to stretch the cancer analogy just a bit further, BP was a localized, contained, and rare tumor up until a few months ago. It was still cancer, but it was not actually having a big effect on the metagame. Denissss did not create the cancer, he simply turned it into the malignant tumor that has now spread to the entire ladder.

THAT is why there is an uproar now when there wasn't one before. because now people have to fight this shit on a daily basis. do you think people would have wanted to ban swagplay if nobody ever used it? swagplay was a problem since the moves were released, but up until it became popular it wasn't a big enough problem to warrant the effort to ban it. baton pass is the same way.




for the record, I support switching from clause 2 to clause 3 without another suspect test. I bet if you rounded up all the suspect test voters who got reqs last time and asked them to just re-vote after this glimpse at the metagame, they would almost unanimously vote option 3 or, if allowed, a clause combining option 2 and option 3. if people are afraid of quickbans, then why not just round up the same voter pool from last time and ask them if they still stand by their decisions? that would take a week and no extra effort and would still involve everyone in the community that cares. let's just fucking vote again because the best answer is clear as day and I bet the whole community, at least the people that actually play in the metagame, knows it.

 

[Zebstrika]

Because nobody likes Baton Pass anyway and there wouldn't be too many people who cared if it was killed of as a team archetype anyway.

Ever wonder why some people hate smogon for being ban happy?

 

[TIZNE]

The real problem with BP is that it allows little interaction. Which leads to a match-up based meta. That's the cancer, not the move BP by itself.

for the record, I support switching from clause 2 to clause 3 without another suspect test. I bet if you rounded up all the suspect test voters who got reqs last time and asked them to just re-vote after this glimpse at the metagame, they would almost unanimously vote option 3 or, if allowed, a clause combining option 2 and option 3. if people are afraid of quickbans, then why not just round up the same voter pool from last time and ask them if they still stand by their decisions? that would take a week and no extra effort and would still involve everyone in the community that cares. let's just fucking vote again because the best answer is clear as day and I bet the whole community, at least the people that actually play in the metagame, knows it.

Now, this is a very good idea. Get the same people that cared enough to get the reqs to vote again. However, this time give another option, something in between option 2 and option 3. The voters preferred to avoid splash damage over outright nuking BP, that's a fact that should be taken into account.

So the problem with Option 3, IMHO, is that it hit too many birds. So let's think about a less hateful choice... that allow other teams to relevantly interact with the BP team.

-BP Scolidepe has a niche outside of BP chains... If we believe WebBowser that niche is problematic by itself. So, an option may be just kill this guy.

-BP Espeon has a niche outside of chains... AND even if we ban BP + Magic Bounce, Espeon could still be a recipient and wipe out existance all non-darktype pokes (although, they will have an open slot for coverage). So this seems both unnecesary and insufficient.

-Another option may be to reduce the chain to two pokes, limiting it to Scolipede > Smeagle > Recipient (Espeon, Clefable, Vap). Or Scolipede > Espeon > Recipient.

 

[looiiyut]

I know I said I wasn't going to post again but this uninformed argument that uses praises for denissss to deflect the blame from BP has to stop.

let me get one thing straight with you: people have known about --and hated-- bp since generation 3. nobody has ever done anything about it because until now, it hasn't been worth the effort. until now, almost nobody used BP in tournaments or in the ladder. the reasons people hate it haven't changed-- simply the number of players using it. I hate BP for the same exact reasons as I did months, even years ago when nobody used it. the difference is now, it has saturated the ladder, giving me a reason to speak up about my hatred. yes, without denisss there would be no discussion, not because bp isn't cancer without denisss, but because bp would not be a widespread enough cancer to be worth talking about.

to stretch the cancer analogy just a bit further, BP was a localized, contained, and rare tumor up until a few months ago. It was still cancer, but it was not actually having a big effect on the metagame. Denissss did not create the cancer, he simply turned it into the malignant tumor that has now spread to the entire ladder.

THAT is why there is an uproar now when there wasn't one before. because now people have to fight this shit on a daily basis. do you think people would have wanted to ban swagplay if nobody ever used it? swagplay was a problem since the moves were released, but up until it became popular it wasn't a big enough problem to warrant the effort to ban it. baton pass is the same way.




for the record, I support switching from clause 2 to clause 3 without another suspect test. I bet if you rounded up all the suspect test voters who got reqs last time and asked them to just re-vote after this glimpse at the metagame, they would almost unanimously vote option 3 or, if allowed, a clause combining option 2 and option 3. if people are afraid of quickbans, then why not just round up the same voter pool from last time and ask them if they still stand by their decisions? that would take a week and no extra effort and would still involve everyone in the community that cares. let's just fucking vote again because the best answer is clear as day and I bet the whole community, at least the people that actually play in the metagame, knows it.

We have different points of view, I respect your idea but i'm sticking to my opinion about denis and BP. People are afraid by innovation (of an old playstyle) so they prefer avoid the problem instead to face it.
You said: "BP has saturated the ladder". I don't agree, there were 6 BP on top 100 (1 on top 30) last week.

GL HF to everybody!

 

[Karxrida]

Ever wonder why some people hate smogon for being ban happy?

Read my sig.

EDIT:

We have different points of view, I respect your idea but i'm sticking to my opinion about denis and BP. People are afraid by innovation (of an old playstyle) so they prefer avoid the problem instead to face it.
You said: "BP has saturated the ladder". I don't agree, there were 6 BP on top 100 (1 on top 30) last week.

GL HF to everybody!

Innovation does not always equal competitiveness. Just because something is innovative does not mean it is automatically balanced or healthy for the meta. We never denied that denis is a great teambuilder and innovative player, we said that what he found was unhealthy for the meta.

Also, way to contradict yourself saying BP isn't saturating the ladder then say that 6 BP teams were in the top 100.

 

[looiiyut]

Read my sig.

EDIT:

Innovation does not always equal competitiveness. Just because something is innovative does not mean it is automatically balanced or healthy for the meta. We never denied that denis is a great teambuilder and innovative player, we said that what he found was unhealthy for the meta.

Also, way to contradict yourself saying BP isn't saturating the ladder then say that 6 BP teams were in the top 100.

We are talking of the 6% not 20% or 50%. 6% is nothing in comparison with the percentage of the other playstyle.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Jesus Christ, this thread is still going....

well I would like for any of you people who dont want to ban the move baton pass to find me ONE game in a respected tournament or high ladder game where a dry pass was used, Im not saying they arent out there but I have played roughly 1500 games on the ladder most of which were near the top, and not once have I ever seen a dry pass. So if thats a reason to prevent us from banning baton pass, it is a bad one.

If you dont want to ban baton pass because you think quick passing with scolipede is a legitamate strategy, that is something that could be argued I suppose. I think quick passing is broken too and falls under the support clause of why we would ban something. Scolipede happens to be one of my favorite late game cleaner and runs a very effective(not broken) LO cleaner set. So banning scolipede because of baton pass is being unfair to him.

So Ill present what I think would be a fair thing to do, either go with option 3, or ban baton pass. Either one of those options kills baton pass teams and has minimal fall out for the rest of the tier. I dont know what you all are arguing about at this point, these are the only two viable options and either one is a good fix. Hopefully something gets done soon, but If you think I am wrong or would like me to clarify, please say so in a respectable manner.

 

[Rotosect]

I know I said I wasn't going to post again but this uninformed argument that uses praises for denissss to deflect the blame from BP has to stop.

let me get one thing straight with you: people have known about --and hated-- bp since generation 3. nobody has ever done anything about it because until now, it hasn't been worth the effort. until now, almost nobody used BP in tournaments or in the ladder. the reasons people hate it haven't changed-- simply the number of players using it. I hate BP for the same exact reasons as I did months, even years ago when nobody used it.

Stop right here. First you bring up people praising Denisss and deflecting the issue, and right after you bring up your own hatred towards Baton Pass as an argument.

What you or everybody else hate is unimportant.
I'm pretty sure most of us hated Jirachi's paraflinch shenanigans in the previous generations, but that hate was never used as an argument against its legitimacy in OU.

If anything what needs to stop is this irrational aversion towards any playstyle that isn't part of the holy trinity of hyper offense, balance and stall.

 

[TIZNE]

I agree that quickpass Scoli is the most broken part of the chain.
I'm sure it would be enough with half of the option 3: ban the combination Scolipede + BP

 

[Subject 18]

We have different points of view, I respect your idea but i'm sticking to my opinion about denis and BP. People are afraid by innovation (of an old playstyle) so they prefer avoid the problem instead to face it.
You said: "BP has saturated the ladder". I don't agree, there were 6 BP on top 100 (1 on top 30) last week.

GL HF to everybody!

"Nobody likes BP so kill it" omg, great point, I like your idea! lol I don't like tomato so ban it, please.
I'm a Denis's fan! Am I the only one?
Without Denis, there would be no discussion and frustration. I have the solution: "Denis clause: dEnIsSsS and his creativity are banned"
I listed some BP counters and other users have demonstrated strong points and vulnerability of BP but never mind: the slogan is "Ban BP". it's simple avoid the problem.

Okay, there are a number of issues with what you say. Stathakis and I, both have made points that show why Baton Pass is unhealthy for the OU Metagame despite not being "unbeatable." The issue with Baton Pass teams is they have been inherently unhealthy and bad for the game for years dating back to Gen 3 like Stathakis mentioned before. For those of you who are newer and don't have much knowledge of tournament history; ImperfectLuck used Baton Pass back in OST 7 (which is DPP before there was Magic Bounce) and had huge success with it.

looiiyut2. You and several others still don't understand that no one is saying that Baton Pass is unbeatable because there are ways to beat those teams but answer me this: If you don't carry those "counters" of ways to beat BP, can you outplay the opponent and win? The answer is no, you cannot. If you don't carry Taunt users, Phazing, etc you will just flat out lose and there is little to nothing you can do about it besides hope for hax. You can't double switch to gain the upper hand, you can't outpredict, you can't really gameplan to setup a win.

So what you are others are saying is "You have to run those counters otherwise you will lose, adapt and stop whining." This doesn't strike you as an issue? Going into a game and having lost it before you even make a single move is okay to you? Not every team can fit those methods of beating BP in every single team. I know you will say that it's the same with any setup sweeper in the game. No, it's not the same. If you don't believe me, go look at both SPL replays and WCOP Replays. You will see that despite being weak to a certain setup sweeper or having a bad team matchup, can avoid losing games to that threat or losing the game in general through good plays and being the better player that match.

You can't make a team that is unbeatable, it's just not possible anymore or ever was. There is always going to be something that beats it, but being weak to something doesn't mean you will auto-lose. Only on few cases should that happen in the first place. When I build a team, I know that I'm weak to threat A, B and C. That's fine because when I play a battle and run into those threats, I can make sure they can't come in safely, I don't get them room to be able to setup, I double switch to put pressure on them. With Baton Pass, you can't do that. You can be CTC, Gr8astard, or Pokeaim but you will not be able to outplay those teams. Those games are decided as soon as you hit team preview. It turn that entire metagame into having the counters and slaughtering the opponent or you get slaughtered because you don't have the counters. With this you completely remove that aspect of skill out of the equation. Is this what you want in a healthy meta? Do you want to go into games and have little to no chance to win? Or praying to hax the other player to win? Ask yourself this.

I don't understand why this is difficult concept to comprehend. Literally anyone who actually plays the game or has any understanding of the meta should be able tell you this is not what you want. You guys would rather restrict teambuilding even more than it already is, to force everyone to adapt. Since that's the case we can unban Rayquazza, Kyogre, and Arceus, or remove Sleep Clause and we'll just "adapt." It's not that different from keeping Baton Pass around, this should be ideal right?

And get ready for this... If you're Unaware Quagsire lost to BP, then maybe the other person is straight up better than you and would have won even without BP. AKA, you're not as good as you think.

Since when does Unaware Quagsire counter BP??? You obviously don't understand how Stored Power mechanics work. Stored Power gets stronger as you get more stat boosts, Unaware may ignore the actual stat boosts but it doesn't stop Stored Power from getting absurdly strong. So tell me exactly how Quagsire is going to tank a 180 Base Power Stored Power with that measly 65 Special Defense.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

MegaScizor I'm not going to mow through every SPL and WCOP replay to look for an instance of Drypassing. Jukain, in the viability ranking thread, recently argued for Celebi to go to C and cited being able to BP out of Pursuit as one of the reasons. Good enough for me. Again, it's really niche but it does have applications.

I don't know how you can say quick passing is broken when it's been a thing since GSC lol. If quick pass Scolipede is broken then just ban Scolipede, but I don't think it's broken cause too many things are able to stop it (inb4 it can set up in front of T-Tar and Scarfed Raptor, that's not what I mean.)

There's no reason to ban BP when option 3, the complex ban of Speed Boost+Magic Bounce, was and still is an option. Restricting it to three pokemon has made people realize the combination of Scolipede and Espeon was the problem, cause they're just too good at supporting a sweeper and rolling over defensive teams. Without Espeon, BP chains are very susceptible to phazing (only Ingrain Smeargle can do it and that was a thing last gen) and without Scolipede, they're just not as good cause scoli is so efficient.

 

[Rotosect]

Looking at the viability thread I'm seeing many people asking for Scolipede to move up to A+ rank, which is dangerously close to S rank, the one where suspects come from.
If it can be proven that Scolipede's quick-passing abilities are broken outside of dedicated BP teams, then I'll concede that it should be seen as uber under the support clause.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

MegaScizor I'm not going to mow through every SPL and WCOP replay to look for an instance of Drypassing. Jukain, in the viability ranking thread, recently argued for Celebi to go to C and cited being able to BP out of Pursuit as one of the reasons. Good enough for me. Again, it's really niche but it does have applications.

I kinda cant believe you said this. You are unwilling to provide evidence, but because you heard someone argue to bump a pokemon up to C rank you are convinced that they should be able to keep their insanely niche move at the expense of the entire meta...maybe good enough for you but not for anybody who actually wants a competitive meta.

And I just said my opinion on quick pass, I am not claiming it needs to be banned. I am merely saying that I think under the support clause, scolipede would have to be suspected for his ability to quick pass so effectively.

But yeah if you are fine with option 3 then I guess there is no point in me responding..so thats my bad.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I kinda cant believe you said this. You are unwilling to provide evidence, but because you heard someone argue to bump a pokemon up to C rank you are convinced that they should be able to keep their insanely niche move at the expense of the entire meta...maybe good enough for you but not for anybody who actually wants a competitive meta.

Hey man there's lots of replays and I have a 4th of July party to get to.

Baton Pass is not like Swagger. Swagger was only used with Prankster, which was considered uncompetitive for the reasons brought up in its suspect thread. No one really had a problem with just banning the move instead of just banning it with Prankster cause there's no other use for it. This is as opposed to BP which does have niche applications that are cited by good players. Celebi is a Keldo check that can't be Pursuit Trapped by Bisharp? Sure, whatever. That's why it's more appropriate for a complex ban, as opposed to ban on the move, which was done with Swagger.