Yeah I am the one who started that baton pass nerf thread and I was filled with hate towards the playstyle and insulted it every chance I had, it was a cheap and uncompetitive strategy.(imo w/e) At the end of the day if there is something that infuriates a good portion of the users, it will most likely be banned because we want an enjoyable metagame that is as competitive as possible, it just so happen that things that make the tier unbalanced infuriate us, so it works out nicely. We are all striving for the same thing and some just have different opinions on how to achieve that goal. I am like 90% sure that banning aegislash is the right STEP if we are too achieve a balanced metagame, but I am not saying that it will fix all our problems immediately, it is important to not be so short-sighted and realize what will be best in the long run.
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np: XY OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Ghost of Perdition
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Yeah I am the one who started that baton pass nerf thread and I was filled with hate towards the playstyle and insulted it every chance I had, it was a cheap and uncompetitive strategy.(imo w/e) At the end of the day if there is something that infuriates a good portion of the users, it will most likely be banned because we want an enjoyable metagame that is as competitive as possible, it just so happen that things that make the tier unbalanced infuriate us, so it works out nicely. We are all striving for the same thing and some just have different opinions on how to achieve that goal. I am like 90% sure that banning aegislash is the right STEP if we are too achieve a balanced metagame, but I am not saying that it will fix all our problems immediately, it is important to not be so short-sighted and realize what will be best in the long run.
I going to say this yet again: if over centralization is so much of a problem, then why didn't we ever see suspects for things like Talonflame, a rotom W, and Greninja in early Gen 6? They, with a few others, were practically the win button to have back in early Gen 6. So what happened? We created a meta to deal with it and push the early gen main threats away from their win button status, we didn't ban them. Remember when Protean made Greninja one of the biggest threats in the tier? We learned to deal with that, too. We can do that here, just let the meta evolve instead of ripping out parts of the ecosystem. It's been done before. Anything that taken the main spotlight in OU doesn't stay for very long. Baton Pass? People did their best to find a way to break the chains, though the 3 Pokémon limit was nice. Meta evolution has existed for a long time. Gen 2 saw the overuse of SkarmBliss, then Magnet Pull Magneton came along later and screwed that strategy. If something seems too powerful or too centralizing, Game Freak has already left its weakness somewhere in the game, and if it hasn't, it's coming soon.
I was speaking on behalf of the general feel I got from the baton pass discussion thread you created after the original nerf. Fair enough if you were filled with hate and insulted it a lot, but a lot of people gave their views calmly and without hostility, which I think was a big part in achieving the end result. For what it's worth, I don't mean to criticise you for being passionate about banning something. I think your posts are good quality and well informed. I just think there's a better way of earning respect for your opinion than belittling counter points (you haven't done this but many people in this thread have), which is why I've been criticising this whole "Aegi is cancer" thing. I agree we should strive for a metagame everybody is happy with, but it's only right to question the intentions behind heated posts if they appear to be self-motivated and not objective.
So we have to use the logic of, "well, they'll make something to stop it later"? The reason why those three weren't immediately banned was because the meta wasn't even created yet. By the time it was, they weren't nearly as broken as before (pretty much prior to PokeBank). There was a scarce amount of Pokes and we just had to deal with it until then. Which is why as soon as Pokebank came out, is about when the bans started happening the "meta" had begun.
I think the argument that would be made here is: Early Gen 6 meta was a crazy and turbulent time. A lot of new things were floating around and people were adapting to all of them. Where as now there isn't nearly as much to develop and figure out. Rotom-W was the most central thing back then imo but this was more because it was the first thing people discovered as any easy... "fall back" to have on your team. More like the best known way to keep all (most of) the new threats, being discovered at the time, in check. No one was for banning it because it made you actually able to survive in a metagame that was still settling and people were getting wrecked by Mega Lucario and crap anyways with much bigger fish to fry. Greninja has been made to be a lot more manageable. And Talonflame... some people still call for a ban of it. (personally the so obviously non-creep power increase that is the Gale Wings and priority power "creep" of this gen leaves a bad taste in my mouth but I think Talonflame is far from un-managable and not broken. It's just heavily limiting to frailer speed boosting sweepers and things with Flying weaknesses.) But the fact is these things were just the first guys to surface in a metagame that was far from settled. Now we're dealing with a metagame that has settled and is failing to "adapt" to the centralizing forces of Aegislash beyond compounding how centric it (and a few other things) is.
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Mr. Goodra Desokoro
I've read your posts and you seem to completely miss everything that has been said in this thread. Many people in this thread have said that Aegislash isn't necessary "broken" in the traditional sense like Mega Lucario, Blaziken, Mega Gengar or Mega Kanga, but that doesn't mean the discussion or the issue with Aegislash ends there. There are several criteria that can lead to a Pokemon being banned from OU, and those have been outlined here by Alexwolf.
This has been debated back and forth for way to long in this thread. And up till now that argument hasn't really budged. People will say that Aegislash has no true counters because it can beat just about every Pokemon that you can name as a "counter" to it by slightly altering its moveset and not lose any effectiveness. I personally don't really think its "broken" but I still think it should be banned for other reasons.
This mainly refers to "strategies" like Evasion, SwagPlay, or Baton Pass. Many of these have little to no counter play and take player skill completely out of the game and puts the game completely reliant on a player's luck. People have said that King's Shield 50/50s fall into this category because playing out a 1v1 scenario with Aegislash is a huge pain for several Pokemon in the tier (Conkeldurr, Scizor, Medicham, Zard X, Dragonite, Azumarill, Scarf Garchomp). These 50/50 scenarios lead to complete guessing games where the concept of Risk v Reward is largely out of the equation. It's true that 50/50s can occur naturally through the course of a game but those can't really be avoided and are not forced upon players on a regular basis.
This is probably the biggest point that can be made on why Aegislash should be banned from OU. If a Pokemon creates an unhealthy metagame, is overcentralizing or creates a false sense of "balance" it is very much justifiable to ban from the tier. Several of these points have been made by CrashinBoomBang here, myself here and by Aldaron here. This is a point that I have yet to see refuted from the Anti-ban side.
So players are lazy when it comes to teambuilding? lol, I don't know how much WCOP you actually watched but this monotonous teambuilding is present there as well. This is in one of the biggest tournaments on the site and if you really think that they are just too lazy to teambuild and use the same copy paste teams, then you are wrong. The reason why they can't really go out of the current mold is because the meta doesn't allow them to do so. Aegislash's entire presence is stifling the development of the meta and is creating this stale metagame. I addressed this in my last post here.
Now your second point of "Aegislash isn't used on the top ladder teams." As much as I hate using usage stats as a point of argument, I went ahead and looked up Aegislash's usage in the month of July and of players that had a 1825 ELO or higher. In 1825 Aegislash is #1 with 25.68307% usage, in 1695 it's also #1 with 23.94619% usage, while I'm at its also #9 in WCoP usage. So where exactly is Aegislash not being used by the top teams?
So having the whole tier revolve around one Pokemon is now a good thing? This falls under "centralizing" which is a perfectly valid reason to ban something...
I've read your posts and you seem to completely miss everything that has been said in this thread. Many people in this thread have said that Aegislash isn't necessary "broken" in the traditional sense like Mega Lucario, Blaziken, Mega Gengar or Mega Kanga, but that doesn't mean the discussion or the issue with Aegislash ends there. There are several criteria that can lead to a Pokemon being banned from OU, and those have been outlined here by Alexwolf.
This has been debated back and forth for way to long in this thread. And up till now that argument hasn't really budged. People will say that Aegislash has no true counters because it can beat just about every Pokemon that you can name as a "counter" to it by slightly altering its moveset and not lose any effectiveness. I personally don't really think its "broken" but I still think it should be banned for other reasons.
This mainly refers to "strategies" like Evasion, SwagPlay, or Baton Pass. Many of these have little to no counter play and take player skill completely out of the game and puts the game completely reliant on a player's luck. People have said that King's Shield 50/50s fall into this category because playing out a 1v1 scenario with Aegislash is a huge pain for several Pokemon in the tier (Conkeldurr, Scizor, Medicham, Zard X, Dragonite, Azumarill, Scarf Garchomp). These 50/50 scenarios lead to complete guessing games where the concept of Risk v Reward is largely out of the equation. It's true that 50/50s can occur naturally through the course of a game but those can't really be avoided and are not forced upon players on a regular basis.
This is probably the biggest point that can be made on why Aegislash should be banned from OU. If a Pokemon creates an unhealthy metagame, is overcentralizing or creates a false sense of "balance" it is very much justifiable to ban from the tier. Several of these points have been made by CrashinBoomBang here, myself here and by Aldaron here. This is a point that I have yet to see refuted from the Anti-ban side.
So players are lazy when it comes to teambuilding? lol, I don't know how much WCOP you actually watched but this monotonous teambuilding is present there as well. This is in one of the biggest tournaments on the site and if you really think that they are just too lazy to teambuild and use the same copy paste teams, then you are wrong. The reason why they can't really go out of the current mold is because the meta doesn't allow them to do so. Aegislash's entire presence is stifling the development of the meta and is creating this stale metagame. I addressed this in my last post here.
Now your second point of "Aegislash isn't used on the top ladder teams." As much as I hate using usage stats as a point of argument, I went ahead and looked up Aegislash's usage in the month of July and of players that had a 1825 ELO or higher. In 1825 Aegislash is #1 with 25.68307% usage, in 1695 it's also #1 with 23.94619% usage, while I'm at its also #9 in WCoP usage. So where exactly is Aegislash not being used by the top teams?
So having the whole tier revolve around one Pokemon is now a good thing? This falls under "centralizing" which is a perfectly valid reason to ban something...
I acknowledge your other arguments and have already posted why I don't like the 50/50 argument. But who cares if something is overcentralizing? I mean, you guys don't seem like you care in other situations. Take a look at Stealth Rock (no I'm not advocating a ban for SR, just using it as an example). SR is used on nearly every team and nearly every team carries a Spinner/Defogger. Not only that, but you have to plan your team in order to handle SR and it's various setters. It isn't just one Pokemon, there are many that can set it. In addition, many counters to Pokemon are considered not counters because they are 2HKOed after SR damage.
If that isn't centralizing, something you argue should be considered in a ban, then how is Aegislash? I mean, Aegislash is a single Pokemon. Stealth Rocks is learned by more than 20 Pokemon and you have to build a team with the Rapid Spin/Defog in mind. I really see no logic behind the "centralizing" argument if you pick and choose what to use it for.
Responding to bolder part at bottom...
I was under the impression that centralization itself is perfectly acceptable, especially if it is around a group of threats--which it is. I believe the suspect test revealed that. I don't want to sound nit-picky, because that isn't the intention of this post.
I will give you this--I question the effect Aegislash has had on the metagame, and I am willing to concede a ban on those grounds (and those grounds alone). I agree with what you and those you tagged said--it raises concerns. However, I don't believe that any of the other arguments carry a lot of weight.
All you have to do to see the centralization is look at the tier itself. There are only a few mons (Chansey, Breloom, and Lati@s) out of the 50 or so in OU that aren't running Dark, Ground, Ghost, or Fire moves to hit Aegislash-and in many cases, only Aegislash. Notice how mons that can't touch Aegislash, like Sylveon, Togekiss, and to a lesser extent, Rotom-W, have all fallen out of popularity, to the point Togekiss and Sylveon should be UU by the time the next tier results are in. Despite everything in the entire tier wanting to damage it every time it comes in, it has managed to stay at the top of the tier. This is even more impressive when we start looking at playstyle trends that by all rights should have diminished its popularity by quite a bit-Sand offense, DeoSharp HO, Double Genies, and now the nigh-unhealthy obsession with Mega Mawile. One has to wonder just how a single mon is so powerful, that even with the meta evolving in ways to beat it, it has stayed in the top 10 since the beginning of XY.
Please do note that things like Ground coverage also hit some of the other most centralizing threats: Charizard X and Mega Mawile. The coverage issue is a bigger animal to tackle because most things run coverage to hit as much of the threat base as possible. Yes--specific mons like Mega Pinsir would like to drop EQ for CC, but all that means is it's holding back the power creep. I'm not making a "balancing" argument here, I'm just explaining what it mean.
And as I said--the viability of mons has not been dictated solely by Aegislash, but rather the oligarchy of threats that rule OU, and a few new mechanics.
Aight so me saying Aegi makes certain pokes 'unusable' is technically incorrect, lemme rephrase: The existence of Aegislash makes other pokemon so shit in the mega that nobody wants to use them anymore. Because I feel it's worth mentioning, here's some good-but-currently useless pokes that will cry sweet jesus tears of ecstasy once Aegislash is gone (although pretty soon I'm gonna have real-life shit to do so it'll be incomplete but I might update if relevant):
Spinners:
Starmie over here will relish the loss of Aegislash. In fact, the main reason Starmie has fallen so drastically in usage is because it can't beat Aegislash. Yeah the Defog buff hurt her too, I'll give you that, but even before the sand craze Starmie was being tossed aside for Excadrill b/c despite being faster, having access to the BoltBeam combo, Scald, and Psyshock to beat stuff like Amoonguss and Mega Venu on the switch, two great abilities in Analytic and Natural Cure, and longevity in Recover, that all didn't mean jack shit with Aegislash around, cuz Exca is the only spinner bar maybe Mega Blastoise (ew) that stands a chance of beating the Slash.
Forretress isn't as good as Starmie this time around, I'll give you that, but it still has several redeeming qualities. Titanic physical defenses don't hurt, neither does access to literally every form of entry hazard bar sticky web, nor pivoting abilites in Volt Switch, and a strong Gyro Ball is nice. Plus EQ doesn't hurt for surprising Heatran on the switch. Sturdy is also much appreciated for when you need that extra layer of spikes or those rocks off the field before going out. Forretress has a shitload of utility, and while Wish Support is greatly appreciated, it can still do a good job of setting up rocks or keeping them off when need be. Albeit, bar Rapid Spin it's pretty much outclassed by Ferrothorn, but it still has a respectable niche as a spinner. Or it WOULD, rather, if it stood a snowflakes chance in hell facing up against the most common spinblocker in the game (hint: it's Aegislash). The amount of damage Forretress' EQ produces is enough to 2HKO Excadrill while Adamant Exca only 4HKOs Forry, but the damage it does to Aegislash is laughable, at which point it proceeds to KO you with Shadow Ball. A spinner that can't beat Aegislash is, at the moment, a useless one, and the fact that it can beat the most common spinner 1v1 means absolutely nothing.
Walls
(only one I can really think of atm)
Bronzong is a pretty damn good poke, but you'd never know that seeing as how it didn't even make the OU viability ranking list. The steel nerf really hurt Zongers, only capitalized upon by the existence of Aegislash. It has two great abilities in Heatproof and Levitate, with the former possessing the ability to beat Heatran with EQ 1v1 and the latter being able to handle shit like D-nite and non-Fire Blast Garchomp no problem. Depending on the spread it can even survive a LO Gengar Shadow Ball and proceed to murder it with Zen Headbutt. This fucker's guaranteed to get rocks up, and if you don't play like a total scrub this thing will last well throughout the match despite having no reliable recovery bar Rest and Lefties, and it can actually pull its own weight against a large portion of OU, especially when supplied with excellent teammates (see: Mega Amph). But it can't even touch Aegi, so sorry Bronzong, you don't get a rank. Yes I am aware Bronzong is outclassed by stuff like Ferro but Aegislash is the reason it's almost nonexistent anywhere in OU.
Misc.
This is a fucken sin right here. Toxicroak's usefulness diminished with the rain nerf, but it still has plenty of redeeming qualities. It has FOUR great boosting moves in Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Work Up, and Nasty Plot, priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, access to great omoves like Knock Off and Drain Punch, and looks hella dope. His typing and ability in Dry Skin are also superb, allowing him to offensively check Azumarill and Bisharp, offensively and defensively check Crawdaunt, defensively check non-HP Flying Keldo variants, murder Chansey, and after a few boosts his dual STABs can plow through a good portion of the tier on their own while Sucker Punch can oftentimes handle the rest (Gengar, Lati@s). He does need some support, but provide it properly and he can do quite a lot with his large range of versatile sets to choose from. His stats are kind of shitty, but he's got the movepool to compensate largely for it. Oh wait, I forgot -- Aegislash exists, which Toxicroak literally can't touch with many sets and hardly leaves a dent in others, and at this point is more trouble than he's worth. Sorry Toxi, C- for you.
I'm done for now, I spent too much time typing this up and I should go outside or something. Also, as I'm sure people will love to chime in, SO HERE READ THESE BOLDED COLORFUL LETTERS, I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION YES? Good, so be aware that I understand that there is much more than just Aegislash this gen keeping these guys from rising too much in the ranks, like Talonflame and Mega Zards and other scary stronk stuff out there, but none of them have affected these mons as much as Aegislash. So please, let us join hands and ban Aegislash. Do it for Rapid Spin. Do it for sentient rain bells. Do it for Toxicroak.
Spinners:
Starmie over here will relish the loss of Aegislash. In fact, the main reason Starmie has fallen so drastically in usage is because it can't beat Aegislash. Yeah the Defog buff hurt her too, I'll give you that, but even before the sand craze Starmie was being tossed aside for Excadrill b/c despite being faster, having access to the BoltBeam combo, Scald, and Psyshock to beat stuff like Amoonguss and Mega Venu on the switch, two great abilities in Analytic and Natural Cure, and longevity in Recover, that all didn't mean jack shit with Aegislash around, cuz Exca is the only spinner bar maybe Mega Blastoise (ew) that stands a chance of beating the Slash.
Forretress isn't as good as Starmie this time around, I'll give you that, but it still has several redeeming qualities. Titanic physical defenses don't hurt, neither does access to literally every form of entry hazard bar sticky web, nor pivoting abilites in Volt Switch, and a strong Gyro Ball is nice. Plus EQ doesn't hurt for surprising Heatran on the switch. Sturdy is also much appreciated for when you need that extra layer of spikes or those rocks off the field before going out. Forretress has a shitload of utility, and while Wish Support is greatly appreciated, it can still do a good job of setting up rocks or keeping them off when need be. Albeit, bar Rapid Spin it's pretty much outclassed by Ferrothorn, but it still has a respectable niche as a spinner. Or it WOULD, rather, if it stood a snowflakes chance in hell facing up against the most common spinblocker in the game (hint: it's Aegislash). The amount of damage Forretress' EQ produces is enough to 2HKO Excadrill while Adamant Exca only 4HKOs Forry, but the damage it does to Aegislash is laughable, at which point it proceeds to KO you with Shadow Ball. A spinner that can't beat Aegislash is, at the moment, a useless one, and the fact that it can beat the most common spinner 1v1 means absolutely nothing.
Walls
(only one I can really think of atm)
Bronzong is a pretty damn good poke, but you'd never know that seeing as how it didn't even make the OU viability ranking list. The steel nerf really hurt Zongers, only capitalized upon by the existence of Aegislash. It has two great abilities in Heatproof and Levitate, with the former possessing the ability to beat Heatran with EQ 1v1 and the latter being able to handle shit like D-nite and non-Fire Blast Garchomp no problem. Depending on the spread it can even survive a LO Gengar Shadow Ball and proceed to murder it with Zen Headbutt. This fucker's guaranteed to get rocks up, and if you don't play like a total scrub this thing will last well throughout the match despite having no reliable recovery bar Rest and Lefties, and it can actually pull its own weight against a large portion of OU, especially when supplied with excellent teammates (see: Mega Amph). But it can't even touch Aegi, so sorry Bronzong, you don't get a rank. Yes I am aware Bronzong is outclassed by stuff like Ferro but Aegislash is the reason it's almost nonexistent anywhere in OU.
Misc.
This is a fucken sin right here. Toxicroak's usefulness diminished with the rain nerf, but it still has plenty of redeeming qualities. It has FOUR great boosting moves in Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Work Up, and Nasty Plot, priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, access to great omoves like Knock Off and Drain Punch, and looks hella dope. His typing and ability in Dry Skin are also superb, allowing him to offensively check Azumarill and Bisharp, offensively and defensively check Crawdaunt, defensively check non-HP Flying Keldo variants, murder Chansey, and after a few boosts his dual STABs can plow through a good portion of the tier on their own while Sucker Punch can oftentimes handle the rest (Gengar, Lati@s). He does need some support, but provide it properly and he can do quite a lot with his large range of versatile sets to choose from. His stats are kind of shitty, but he's got the movepool to compensate largely for it. Oh wait, I forgot -- Aegislash exists, which Toxicroak literally can't touch with many sets and hardly leaves a dent in others, and at this point is more trouble than he's worth. Sorry Toxi, C- for you.
I'm done for now, I spent too much time typing this up and I should go outside or something. Also, as I'm sure people will love to chime in, SO HERE READ THESE BOLDED COLORFUL LETTERS, I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION YES? Good, so be aware that I understand that there is much more than just Aegislash this gen keeping these guys from rising too much in the ranks, like Talonflame and Mega Zards and other scary stronk stuff out there, but none of them have affected these mons as much as Aegislash. So please, let us join hands and ban Aegislash. Do it for Rapid Spin. Do it for sentient rain bells. Do it for Toxicroak.
Just wanted to say I've read and acknowledge your arguments and will give a full response when I can get on a computer and format an appropriate post.
That being said, you have some misconceptions on my anti-ban arguments. For starters, I've never once used the argument that because Aegislash is "less broken" than the likes of mega Lucario, it should stay in OU. I don't find that an acceptable argument and have never stated otherwise. I've also never said that all pro-ban players think Aegislash is broken. I've said some pro-ban players think that, and countered them appropriately. I've not tarnished everybody on pro-ban with the same brush and I would appreciate the same courtesy back, especially when you're countering me directly with weak anti-ban arguments I don't agree with.
Regarding staleness, yes I do believe creativity can be achieved with Aegislash around and yes I do blame the players. Before I went months without internet, I was number 3 on the OU ladder with a team that contained the apparently unusable Starmie, Umbreon and Rotom-H. I understand your counter argument regarding useage statistics and I appreciate that I appear to have exaggerated and will concede that point. However, what I meant is success is totally possible without Aegislash. He's not on 75% of teams which says enough.
Of course it still has high usage though. It's an amazing mon that does work. People want to win and like to stick with what they know works.
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252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 138-164 (42.5 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Notice how this is without the analytic boost. If Aegi switches into Hydropump it gets a clean 2hko. Starmie is simply outclassed by Excadrill and his pursuit weakness doesnt help either. Defog is another issue turning the Latis into competition for him and honestly, there is very little reason to use him over one of the latis.
The other 3 are just jackshit and wont make OU even with Aegi gone. And yeah i read your last part but here is the problem with it, given how many other massiv problems those mons have, its nothing but a baseless claim that Aegi is the main problem for their absence from OU. Furthermore, as far as i know, pokemon beeing less viable because of a poke is not a ban reason at all so it wouldnt matter even if Aegi was the only reason.
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He didn't say they would make OU without aegislash. He's saying they are useless to use in the OU metagame because of aegislash.
Being OU and being able to function in OU are two different things. Plenty of lower tier pokemon can perform admirably in OU, he's just making a point that there is a large number of lower tier pokemon who could be used in OU but can't currently because aegislash shits all over their lives.
Being OU and being able to function in OU are two different things. Plenty of lower tier pokemon can perform admirably in OU, he's just making a point that there is a large number of lower tier pokemon who could be used in OU but can't currently because aegislash shits all over their lives.
And i am saying they will be useless in OU anyway, no matter if Aegi is there or not because they are outclassed or outright bad.
What kind of argument is that anyway. "Lets bann Aegi because he makes some pokemon unviable though they will be unviable even without him"
/edit I am talking about viability here, not about usage based tiering. Their viability wont change much if any at all with Aegi gone because they have far to many flaws to work well in OU.
What kind of argument is that anyway. "Lets bann Aegi because he makes some pokemon unviable though they will be unviable even without him"
/edit I am talking about viability here, not about usage based tiering. Their viability wont change much if any at all with Aegi gone because they have far to many flaws to work well in OU.
Yeah notice how I never said they'd make OU, they still probs won't cuz they're outclassed by other shit, but to say Forre and Zong are both jackshit just ain't so. They shouldn't be anyone's first choice, yeah, but there's lots of shit people like to use and still have success with even when at first glance better choices are out there (see: Copycat Couturier w/ditto, Mirror Mola (remember when everyone thought Alomomola was such dogshit, then this team showed up and Alomomola went up several ranks?), CTC's Final Squadron on his team thread with MEGA AMPH, ZONGERS, ARCANINE, and friggin MANTINE of all things). Outclassed =/= unusable, or even BAD. That mindset promotes lazy teambuilding and minimal effort when there are so many good options out there that nobody will try. As for the above list, I've tried em all, and speaking from my experience with building teams around them, my no. 1 concern is how to deal with Aegislash because bar Starmie none of them stand a chance against it. Which sucks, because with Slash gone they are ALL usable, I'd say oftentimes even useful. Aegislash makes all of them next to useless. And that fucken sucks.
I don't like repeating myself, but this is so oversimplified it's not even funny, I can see you've never actually tried to beat Aegislash with Starmie. Without Aegislash, Starmie would be a more than excellent offensive spinner, now it can't even show its face until Aegislash has taken a significant amount of damage, because it will die otherwise without getting a spin off, unless you're lucky with your damage rolls and you know which set Aegislash runs before switching in (hint: you won't). As a spinner, Starmie has a lot of redeeming qualities over Excadrill and is far from outclassed, but those don't matter with Aegislash around.
Not picking a pro- or anti-ban side here, but with this logic you can make any pokemon look healthy for the metagame.
I'm sorry, but Aegislash isn't holding Starmie back. The most it's doing it holding it back from being as effective this gen. It can't get an entirely reliable spin off anymore. That happens with all ghosts, Aegi or not. The real problem Starmie has now is the Buff Dark received this gen. Knock off has become the easiest spammable move in existence now, and Aegislash is not to blame for that. Even if Aegi goes, Starmie won't be seeing use like it did last gen. Too many pokes carrying Sucker Punch and Knock off.
Regardless, I think it's about time, I speak on my behalf. I've tried to remain a neutral party this entire time. Not a thing has changed. I don't think Aegislash as a whole is broken. I DO however see he has some potentially (when given the right circumstances) broken qualities. The 50/50 argument has been beaten into the ground, but I'll come off and say, that this entire time, we should have been saying 50/50s + KS. 50/50s are going to happen, regardless of whether Aegislash is in the tier or not. But, when you add KS to the mix, it can (here's one of those circumstances) be considered a problem. Broken? Meh, not quite. The real problem is KS, that's the true culprit here. That in conjunction with his controllable 720 BST can be seen as hard to manage. I won't deny that. But, I still don't see that as a means to ban it so quickly, since it does also rely on the users choice in move.
I do see the reason for this suspect test, I don't entirely agree with it, but what substance does that hold? I was simply here to call people on their flimsy arguments they really seemed like they were fishing for reasons.
My point being, I can sort of see why it would go, if it does. King's Shield is a disgusting move to have on this thing, I just don't entirely agree with it.
Screw you King's shield.
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Aight so me saying Aegi makes certain pokes 'unusable' is technically incorrect, lemme rephrase: The existence of Aegislash makes other pokemon so shit in the mega that nobody wants to use them anymore. Because I feel it's worth mentioning, here's some good-but-currently useless pokes that will cry sweet jesus tears of ecstasy once Aegislash is gone (although pretty soon I'm gonna have real-life shit to do so it'll be incomplete but I might update if relevant):
Spinners:
Starmie over here will relish the loss of Aegislash. In fact, the main reason Starmie has fallen so drastically in usage is because it can't beat Aegislash. Yeah the Defog buff hurt her too, I'll give you that, but even before the sand craze Starmie was being tossed aside for Excadrill b/c despite being faster, having access to the BoltBeam combo, Scald, and Psyshock to beat stuff like Amoonguss and Mega Venu on the switch, two great abilities in Analytic and Natural Cure, and longevity in Recover, that all didn't mean jack shit with Aegislash around, cuz Exca is the only spinner bar maybe Mega Blastoise (ew) that stands a chance of beating the Slash.
Forretress isn't as good as Starmie this time around, I'll give you that, but it still has several redeeming qualities. Titanic physical defenses don't hurt, neither does access to literally every form of entry hazard bar sticky web, nor pivoting abilites in Volt Switch, and a strong Gyro Ball is nice. Plus EQ doesn't hurt for surprising Heatran on the switch. Sturdy is also much appreciated for when you need that extra layer of spikes or those rocks off the field before going out. Forretress has a shitload of utility, and while Wish Support is greatly appreciated, it can still do a good job of setting up rocks or keeping them off when need be. Albeit, bar Rapid Spin it's pretty much outclassed by Ferrothorn, but it still has a respectable niche as a spinner. Or it WOULD, rather, if it stood a snowflakes chance in hell facing up against the most common spinblocker in the game (hint: it's Aegislash). The amount of damage Forretress' EQ produces is enough to 2HKO Excadrill while Adamant Exca only 4HKOs Forry, but the damage it does to Aegislash is laughable, at which point it proceeds to KO you with Shadow Ball. A spinner that can't beat Aegislash is, at the moment, a useless one, and the fact that it can beat the most common spinner 1v1 means absolutely nothing.
Walls
(only one I can really think of atm)
Bronzong is a pretty damn good poke, but you'd never know that seeing as how it didn't even make the OU viability ranking list. The steel nerf really hurt Zongers, only capitalized upon by the existence of Aegislash. It has two great abilities in Heatproof and Levitate, with the former possessing the ability to beat Heatran with EQ 1v1 and the latter being able to handle shit like D-nite and non-Fire Blast Garchomp no problem. Depending on the spread it can even survive a LO Gengar Shadow Ball and proceed to murder it with Zen Headbutt. This fucker's guaranteed to get rocks up, and if you don't play like a total scrub this thing will last well throughout the match despite having no reliable recovery bar Rest and Lefties, and it can actually pull its own weight against a large portion of OU, especially when supplied with excellent teammates (see: Mega Amph). But it can't even touch Aegi, so sorry Bronzong, you don't get a rank. Yes I am aware Bronzong is outclassed by stuff like Ferro but Aegislash is the reason it's almost nonexistent anywhere in OU.
Misc.
This is a fucken sin right here. Toxicroak's usefulness diminished with the rain nerf, but it still has plenty of redeeming qualities. It has FOUR great boosting moves in Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Work Up, and Nasty Plot, priority in Sucker Punch and Vacuum Wave, access to great omoves like Knock Off and Drain Punch, and looks hella dope. His typing and ability in Dry Skin are also superb, allowing him to offensively check Azumarill and Bisharp, offensively and defensively check Crawdaunt, defensively check non-HP Flying Keldo variants, murder Chansey, and after a few boosts his dual STABs can plow through a good portion of the tier on their own while Sucker Punch can oftentimes handle the rest (Gengar, Lati@s). He does need some support, but provide it properly and he can do quite a lot with his large range of versatile sets to choose from. His stats are kind of shitty, but he's got the movepool to compensate largely for it. Oh wait, I forgot -- Aegislash exists, which Toxicroak literally can't touch with many sets and hardly leaves a dent in others, and at this point is more trouble than he's worth. Sorry Toxi, C- for you.
I'm done for now, I spent too much time typing this up and I should go outside or something. Also, as I'm sure people will love to chime in, SO HERE READ THESE BOLDED COLORFUL LETTERS, I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION YES? Good, so be aware that I understand that there is much more than just Aegislash this gen keeping these guys from rising too much in the ranks, like Talonflame and Mega Zards and other scary stronk stuff out there, but none of them have affected these mons as much as Aegislash. So please, let us join hands and ban Aegislash. Do it for Rapid Spin. Do it for sentient rain bells. Do it for Toxicroak.
Okay so I'm going to address this one by one.
Starmie: Utterly and completely outclassed as a spinner by Mold Breaker Excadrill. On top of that, Bisharp still deters Starmie because while Starmie gets the Rapid Spin off, Bisharp pursuit traps. I see no viable reason to run Starmie this gen as a spinner.
Forretress: Two (three?) syllables--Charizard. Both of the forms are rampant, and severely deter him. Additionally, Talonflame is still here, slinging flare blitzes. Also, special attackers have been running HP fire to hit things like ferro and Scizor. Forry is also doing nothing to Gengar aside from a slow volt-switch. I have my doubts that he will be taking off, but I am willing to say I could be wron here.
Bronzing: He's good at getting dual screens up, but walling? No way. Reliance on leftovers means team support, and what else does he offer--Stealth rocks? I'm not buying this one.
Toxicroak: Okay I love toxicroak, but he lost most of what he had with the weather nerf. The power creep this gen is too much for his defenses, and he no longer has black sludge and rain heals for stalling.
Also, just because you put something in bold red letters does not make it any more correct.
True, i usually double switch into Bisharp after bringing Starmie in when there is a full health Aegi on the opponents team but it realy isnt that big of a deal. With SR or any kind of prior damage the 2hko is pretty save even after 2 lefti rounds so Aegi has to be very very careful if he wants to stop Starmie from spinning throughout the game, especially if there is something as simple as Bisharp support on the Starmie team. The biggest issuse here is the 80% cth on Hydropump realy and even that can be circumvated by running Shadow Ball on him if Aegi is realy that much of a concern.
Chansey has a lot more to suffer from Knock Off than your average poke, yet she's the most common pokemon on stall. Unlike Starmie, Chansey is a passive mon so it doesn't have to worry about 'beating' anything to do its job, which it does remarkably well even with Knock Off everywhere
Also Bishart and Mawile are literally the only common users of Sucker Punch in OU so I don't really see your argument there. Starmie could have weaknesses to every type and it wouldn't make a difference, it's an offensive spinner that isn't built to take hits, and it shouldn't have to with Analytic and a base 115 speed. Fuck, Starmie can even beat GENGAR, which, out of sand, not even Exca can do. But Exca can beat Aegislash and Starmie can't, and the results of that has made a pretty obvious impact.
Oh, I never said Starmie would become as effective when Aegislash is gone, don't get me wrong. I wasn't around last gen but I've heard some magnificent stories about Starmie's analytic rain-boosted pumps and analytic boosted thunders and his S-rank in the viability thread, I perfectly know that's not gonna come back :) and I'm also aware of the dark buff, Bisharp (although he'll probably drop somewhat if he isn't needed to kill Aegislash anymore and spinning would become more viable, i.e. he would have less defog to punish, but yeah, he won't be gone and Starmie really doesn't like him) and other stuff that's hindering Starmie. With or without Aegislash, Starmie is not what he used to be.
I did say Starmie will become a much more reliable spinner if Aegislash were to get the boot because it just can't spin when Aegislash is around, whereas Baharoth simply posted one calc and said 'look, analytic Hydro Pump beats Aegislash no sweat' and I was pointing out how flawed that was by describing that situation more accurately (at least, I did in that post back then which I didn't feel like retyping; Starmie has to KO Aegislash on the switch if it wants to do anything useful in the game, because otherwise it'll die in the process of defeating Aegislash at best) :)
And just saying, Starmie pretty easily beats most, if not all, ghosts not named Aegislash, which is why it always used to be a good spinner until now, despite its Psychic-typing (if I read that part of your post correctly).
and Baharoth residual damage on Aegislash doesn't take away the Shadow Sneak, which will pretty much kill Starmie or have Aegislash at least take him down with it without getting the spin off (especially if you're using it to double switch, because that way you'll rack up more SR damage. Admittedly, double switching into Bisharp is a good option here :) )
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You're kidding yourself if you think Starmie wouldn't be useful again without Aegislash. It was/is the best spinner in the game in terms of beating spin blockers, but Aegi ruined that. Exca's role literally only overlaps in that their both spinners. Outside of that they are nothing alike whatsoever.
That being said, banning aegi to bring back starmie is stupid and shouldn't be used as an argument. Not even really sure why people are still posting here, considering the vote is already basically done.
That being said, banning aegi to bring back starmie is stupid and shouldn't be used as an argument. Not even really sure why people are still posting here, considering the vote is already basically done.
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