Would you please explain how Aegislash fucked Togekiss when A: Most Aegislash didn't run Flash Cannon, B: Togekiss has great special bulk, and C: Togekiss has Fire Blast.... Yeah Togekiss shouldn't be moving up anytime soon.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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Focus Blast.
Starmie is indeed a very legit hazard remover for offense and balance now, one of the best actually, especially seeing as it keeps yours up as well to keep up offensive pressure and it also pressures most Stealth Rock setters as well. It checks a lot of things on offense, including important ones like Keldeo (has the typing to actually switch into it as well), Thundurus-I, Landorus-I, non-scarf Garchomp, and so on. The only OU spin blocker left is Gengar, who you outspeed and KO with a STAB move, which means unlike Excadrill (who requires sand support to outspeed Gengar, which wont always be the case and doesn't fit all teams), you don't even need to rely on prediction to reliably get off a spin.
The main subtle issue it has is that it has a slight case of 4MSS because it would ideally like 4 attacking moves (Hydro Pump, Psyshock/Psychic, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt) but it has to forgo one of those in order to use Rapid Spin, which it pretty much needs to run to prevent itself from being mostly outclassed by Greninja. Thunderbolt is probably the least consequential to drop, but it's still appreciated for things like Gyarados, Azumaril and CroCune. Analytic is a great ability and lets it really screw with things switching in. It's surprisingly decent against Stall teams too because its moves threaten a lot of common things found on them, and an analytic Psyshock does a pretty decent number to Chansey, allowing it to potentially 2HKO after a bit of prior damage + SR which prevents it from being a total free switch-in. I'd definitely push it to B rank, and B+ could be on the cards as well. I've used it quite a lot lately and I was definitely happy with how it performed.
The main subtle issue it has is that it has a slight case of 4MSS because it would ideally like 4 attacking moves (Hydro Pump, Psyshock/Psychic, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt) but it has to forgo one of those in order to use Rapid Spin, which it pretty much needs to run to prevent itself from being mostly outclassed by Greninja. Thunderbolt is probably the least consequential to drop, but it's still appreciated for things like Gyarados, Azumaril and CroCune. Analytic is a great ability and lets it really screw with things switching in. It's surprisingly decent against Stall teams too because its moves threaten a lot of common things found on them, and an analytic Psyshock does a pretty decent number to Chansey, allowing it to potentially 2HKO after a bit of prior damage + SR which prevents it from being a total free switch-in. I'd definitely push it to B rank, and B+ could be on the cards as well. I've used it quite a lot lately and I was definitely happy with how it performed.
Not sure if anyone has pointed this out, but Heracross' link takes you to the Gyarados entry.
Yeah, I realized that after spouting my nonsense.
I would like to see Togekiss move up to at least B-. At first glance, Togekiss looks somewhat mediocre. But taking a closer look will result in a Pokemon with a wide movepool, carrying moves like Aura Sphere, Fire Blast, and even Psyshock. Togekiss also has more than decent stats. While you won't be using its worse than bad base 50 Attack (Unless you are running a Hustle set, but nobody uses that lol), its acceptable Defense, meaty Special Attack, great Special Defense, and decent Speed add up to a great Pokemon. Togekiss also has access to Serene Grace, one of the best abilities in the game. This, in combination with Air Slash, a move that gets a 60% flinch chance thanks to Serene Grace, and Thunder Wave/Body Slam (Body Slam gets a 60% Paralysis chance thanks to Serene Grace) makes it one of the most annoying Pokemon.
However, Togekiss DOES have some flaws. It's often outsped thanks to its barely acceptable 80 speed, leaving it usually damaged before it can get Paralysis down. Togekiss also has a not-so-desirable case of four-moveslot syndrome, leaving it difficult to decide on what do use. Its typing is a dual-edged sword: Good offensively, but poor defensively. And considering the rise of popularity for Poison and Steel type moves, Togekiss's newfound Fairy typing is a blessing and a curse.
While Togekiss does have some flaws, it's still an excellent fairy type that should be considered when making a team.
Also, I feel Chesnaught should move down to somewhere in the C rank. While Chesnaught has some excellent Attack and Defense, it's Special stats and Speed are downright garbage. While you won't be using his Special Attack, his Special Defense, in combination with most of his Weaknesses being primarily Special types make him not really worth a spot on the team. Chesnaught is also outclassed by Mega Venusaur, who has access to Thick Fat, as well as having good Defenses in BOTH areas, and good Speed.
While Chesnaught has his pros, people should look at other bulky Grass-types in OU and other Fighting-types before he is considered for a Teamslot.
Also:
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 666-786 (178 - 210.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
However, Togekiss DOES have some flaws. It's often outsped thanks to its barely acceptable 80 speed, leaving it usually damaged before it can get Paralysis down. Togekiss also has a not-so-desirable case of four-moveslot syndrome, leaving it difficult to decide on what do use. Its typing is a dual-edged sword: Good offensively, but poor defensively. And considering the rise of popularity for Poison and Steel type moves, Togekiss's newfound Fairy typing is a blessing and a curse.
While Togekiss does have some flaws, it's still an excellent fairy type that should be considered when making a team.
Also, I feel Chesnaught should move down to somewhere in the C rank. While Chesnaught has some excellent Attack and Defense, it's Special stats and Speed are downright garbage. While you won't be using his Special Attack, his Special Defense, in combination with most of his Weaknesses being primarily Special types make him not really worth a spot on the team. Chesnaught is also outclassed by Mega Venusaur, who has access to Thick Fat, as well as having good Defenses in BOTH areas, and good Speed.
While Chesnaught has his pros, people should look at other bulky Grass-types in OU and other Fighting-types before he is considered for a Teamslot.
Also:
Aegislash was commonly seen as a Physical attacker, and often ran Iron Head. And after a Swords Dance, Aegislash could OHKO Togekiss with Iron Head, and cripple, or possibly OHKO Togekiss with Shadow Sneak:
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 666-786 (178 - 210.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 168-198 (44.9 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
Please read the aforementioned posts regarding Togekiss, Togie, as those explain a lot. It really doesn't help that as a bulky Fairy-type, Clefable does a far better job, while Mega Gardevoir eclipses it as an offensive one. Togekiss's Speed is somewhat disappointing and its weaknesses are quite common, not to mention it has five: Rock, Steel, Ice, Electric and Poison. Clefable works wonders on Stall with Unaware and has both an Unaware and Magic Guard CM set, both Abilities sustaining the pixie. It also lacks three of the weaknesses Togekiss has and while Togekiss's Fighting- and Bug-type double resists, as well as a Ground immunity look good on paper, they're not as useful in practice; Unaware Clefable can stop Pokémon like Garchomp much better than Togekiss, since the bird is skinned alive by Garchomp's Stone Edge. Mega Gardevoir does the job as an attacker far better thanks to Pixilate Hyper Voice providing an actually powerful STAB that bypasses Substitutes and allows Mega Gardevoir to get past Sub users like Black Kyurem with the greatest of ease, along with STAB Psyshock preventing it from being walled to Hell and back by Chansey, as well as possessing Taunt to shut Stall down. That brings me to another problem Togekiss has: weak STABs. Dazzling Gleam is 80 BP and Air Slash is 75 BP (lol). Despite the latter's Flinch rate, it's just a weak-as-shit STAB. The last flaw that Togekiss has is that Paraflinch is completely stopped by Electric-types, as they are immune to paralysis and fry Pretty McFeatherpants with Thunderbolt. Looking at how common Thundurus-I is and how Raikou is gaining in popularity and viability, that's a huge flaw.
Overall, it just really seems to me you're biased on Togekiss and completely miss many of the flaws it has that other, better Fairy-types don't possess. Togekiss is completely niche and outclassed. I'd even drop it to C.
Overall, it just really seems to me you're biased on Togekiss and completely miss many of the flaws it has that other, better Fairy-types don't possess. Togekiss is completely niche and outclassed. I'd even drop it to C.
Jukain, Keldeo needs support to get past defensive cores, and it even needs support to do its job against offensive teams, as they commonly carry Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, and Mega Venusaur, Pokemon that can usually keep Keldeo in check in a vacuum. Compare this with other S rank threats, especially Thundurus, Landorus, and Mega Mawile, that need zero support to do their main jobs:
CM Landorus is an excellent standalone wallbreaker, Stealth Rock + Knock Off Landorus is an amazing SR setter, and Rock Polish is a great late-game cleaner with a very respectable surprise factor. All of those sets need zero support when slapping them on a team. Yes, there are some Pokemon that pair well with RP or CM Lando, but it's not like Landorus needs those Pokemon to be effective, just to be even more effective.
Thundurus is the perfect revenge killer and it can even wallbreak with NP + T-Wave + Hidden Power Flying, and in general is still very hard to wall unless you are using a stall team. Basically, by slapping Thundurus to your team you check opposing offensive teams without fail, and it needs zero support. Yeah, anti-SR support is nice, but not a must, and Defog / Rapid Spin are used on almost every team anyway.
Finally, Mega Mawile is the perfect wallbreaker that can single handedly pressure and even break through most defensive cores if given the chance. It also helps revenge kill offensive threats and checks some offensive Pokemon, but it's ability to take advantage of some weak Pokemon to set up and start wrecking stuff is its most important trait.
When compared to those Pokemon, Keldeo is a tad worse, as it needs more support to reach its full potential. It checks a ton of stuff, is a great hard hitter, and also has a great Speed stat and a good amount of versatility (Specs, Scarf, SubSalac, Expert Belt / LO, CM), but ultimately it can't do its job as reliably as the other Pokemon without any kind of support.
CM Landorus is an excellent standalone wallbreaker, Stealth Rock + Knock Off Landorus is an amazing SR setter, and Rock Polish is a great late-game cleaner with a very respectable surprise factor. All of those sets need zero support when slapping them on a team. Yes, there are some Pokemon that pair well with RP or CM Lando, but it's not like Landorus needs those Pokemon to be effective, just to be even more effective.
Thundurus is the perfect revenge killer and it can even wallbreak with NP + T-Wave + Hidden Power Flying, and in general is still very hard to wall unless you are using a stall team. Basically, by slapping Thundurus to your team you check opposing offensive teams without fail, and it needs zero support. Yeah, anti-SR support is nice, but not a must, and Defog / Rapid Spin are used on almost every team anyway.
Finally, Mega Mawile is the perfect wallbreaker that can single handedly pressure and even break through most defensive cores if given the chance. It also helps revenge kill offensive threats and checks some offensive Pokemon, but it's ability to take advantage of some weak Pokemon to set up and start wrecking stuff is its most important trait.
When compared to those Pokemon, Keldeo is a tad worse, as it needs more support to reach its full potential. It checks a ton of stuff, is a great hard hitter, and also has a great Speed stat and a good amount of versatility (Specs, Scarf, SubSalac, Expert Belt / LO, CM), but ultimately it can't do its job as reliably as the other Pokemon without any kind of support.
I would personally say that Togekiss shouldn't move anywhere, as it does have issues with getting stomped on by Thundurus, Mega Scizor, and Terrakion, which gives it a bit of trouble in this meta. But as I said in my previous post, it definitely has niches as a defensive Defogger that can also provide paralysis and Heal Bell support, which can be used, and being able to spam Air Slash on paralyzed targets is only a bonus (paraflinch has only really been a bonus to using this thing). Its ability to provide Defog support is cool over Clef, and paraflinch means it isn't just sitting there. Offensively, it has problems with low BP moves, but it has Nasty Plot, which is very good, and it has Heal bell too, and these two together along with an Air Slash that has a 60% chance to flinch make it a pretty cool stallbreaker that does its job well. NastyPass Toges is quite good, as Togekiss is a nice bulky and slow Baton Passer that can set up, and be able to provide a slow Baton Pass to things like Greninja and Thundurus and allow them to make quick work of the opponent's team so long as they don't have Chansey.
It's very comparable to another C+ Pokemon; Infernape. Infernape has a lot of competition from other wallbreakers, and isn't as impressive as them. But it has some good advantages such as its ability to go mixed and circumvent Mega Venusaur, which Keldeo can't do, while it has Mach Punch to revenge kill Bisharp. It's also able to not run a Choice item over Keldeo to be an effective wallbreaker, and it also deals with some Pokemon that Landorus can't. Its stallbreaker set is cool too, but is a worse Mew in many retrospects. It has its own issues, like being very frail and not that strong, which gives it trouble. Such can also be said about Magnezone and Hydreigon; the former has competition as a general Electric-type and its niche is kind of limited, while the latter is walled hard by Azumarill and Clefable and is slow but is nonetheless an effective wallbreaker. Togekiss shouldn't move up by any means, but it fits in well with these Pokemon, much moreso than in the league of Krookodile and Goodra, whose niches are not too amazing and are rare (although both could use a move up, I'll see about that).
(PS: I'm out of time, but I agree with all of Jirachee's noms; Tyranitar has some cool niches but they're not that good, Mola is amazing, etc.)
It's very comparable to another C+ Pokemon; Infernape. Infernape has a lot of competition from other wallbreakers, and isn't as impressive as them. But it has some good advantages such as its ability to go mixed and circumvent Mega Venusaur, which Keldeo can't do, while it has Mach Punch to revenge kill Bisharp. It's also able to not run a Choice item over Keldeo to be an effective wallbreaker, and it also deals with some Pokemon that Landorus can't. Its stallbreaker set is cool too, but is a worse Mew in many retrospects. It has its own issues, like being very frail and not that strong, which gives it trouble. Such can also be said about Magnezone and Hydreigon; the former has competition as a general Electric-type and its niche is kind of limited, while the latter is walled hard by Azumarill and Clefable and is slow but is nonetheless an effective wallbreaker. Togekiss shouldn't move up by any means, but it fits in well with these Pokemon, much moreso than in the league of Krookodile and Goodra, whose niches are not too amazing and are rare (although both could use a move up, I'll see about that).
(PS: I'm out of time, but I agree with all of Jirachee's noms; Tyranitar has some cool niches but they're not that good, Mola is amazing, etc.)
I just wanted to say that Megachomp with a spread of 80 Atk./252+ Sp. Atk./176 Spd (which outspeeds jolly breloom) Has a roughly 40% chance to 2HKO a
252 HP/200+ Sp. Def./56 Spd Gliscor with a combination of D. Meteor and Sand Force Stone Edge, after Stealth Rocks and Poison Heal (factoring in accuracy). Not great odds, but they are still there, and if gliscor has taken a bit of prior damage, those go up significantly.
Megachomp also can put more work in against offense, due to slightly better bulk, a better speed tier, and a better defensive typing that doesn't leave it weak to flying.
With heracross moving up (Which it will) I think chomp should follow it due to how good they both are at their job, better than Medicham due to their bulk and superior stabs (I'll take Pin missile/Close combat or Earthquake/Draco Meteor over HJK/Zen Headbutt any day). Both of them are just better than many things in B+ like Kabutops, which is useless when the rain timer runs out, Mega-Medicham (already stated), and Scizor (only thing it does better than mega is choice band.), and are both on par with many pokemon in A-, such as Diggersby, Mamoswine, and kyurem-b (chomp is better than Kyu-b under sand, which is not hard to keep up).
Move Mega-Garchomp and Mega-Heracross to A-.
Everything Jirachee says is spot on in my opinion.
Starmie for B/B+
Starmie is currently a good spinner, and there are multiple reasons for this. For starters, unlike Excadrill, it's fast right off the bat without any sort of choice item or Ability. It's also a decent offensive mon that just so happens to check almost all all the common rocks setters, these being things like Garchomp, Terrakion, Lando-T, Shuckle, and Mamoswine. The second thing is that akin to Scarf Excadrill/Sand Rush Excadrill, it checks the only potential spin blocker in OU, which is Gengar. This does it a lot of favours. It also fits on HO teams fairly easily. HO Teams often run hazards and for those who find Defog + Hazards redundant, they don't have to use just Excadrill any more; they have another option all because of the Aegislash ban. At first it looks like I'm saying everything jbct10 said, but Starmie has one more trick up it's sleeve. For all those saying "pursuit trappers fuck Starmie", Reflect Type. You may sacrifice a move for it, giving Starmie even more 4MMS, but you stop SR/Scarf Tyranitar Pursuit trapping you. This is quite huge for Starmie, as allows it to work around the pursuit trappers that give it a hard time.
Starmie fits nicely in B rank. The Pokemon in B Rank like Lucario aren't the best at their job and have notable flaws, but aren't completely outclassed due to certain things it can do. In this case, Starmie isn't the best Spinner in the tier, but has niches over Drill such as being faster off the bat and checking the majority of common SR setters.
EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot, it can absorb status with Natural Cure :]
Starmie for B/B+
Starmie is currently a good spinner, and there are multiple reasons for this. For starters, unlike Excadrill, it's fast right off the bat without any sort of choice item or Ability. It's also a decent offensive mon that just so happens to check almost all all the common rocks setters, these being things like Garchomp, Terrakion, Lando-T, Shuckle, and Mamoswine. The second thing is that akin to Scarf Excadrill/Sand Rush Excadrill, it checks the only potential spin blocker in OU, which is Gengar. This does it a lot of favours. It also fits on HO teams fairly easily. HO Teams often run hazards and for those who find Defog + Hazards redundant, they don't have to use just Excadrill any more; they have another option all because of the Aegislash ban. At first it looks like I'm saying everything jbct10 said, but Starmie has one more trick up it's sleeve. For all those saying "pursuit trappers fuck Starmie", Reflect Type. You may sacrifice a move for it, giving Starmie even more 4MMS, but you stop SR/Scarf Tyranitar Pursuit trapping you. This is quite huge for Starmie, as allows it to work around the pursuit trappers that give it a hard time.
Starmie fits nicely in B rank. The Pokemon in B Rank like Lucario aren't the best at their job and have notable flaws, but aren't completely outclassed due to certain things it can do. In this case, Starmie isn't the best Spinner in the tier, but has niches over Drill such as being faster off the bat and checking the majority of common SR setters.
EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot, it can absorb status with Natural Cure :]
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what is all this support it needs to get past defensive cores? i've already illustrated that everything except spdef amoonguss and slowking is not as reliable as you presume. w/ icy wind you beat the latis and scald burns/sr will chip away at venu pretty easily. or u can reverse that, run a pursuiter and do both. knock / ep / focus / sr lando suffers from coverage issues with the lack of psychic, and i know you know it. forgoing focus is flat-out stupid. lando, too, requires support for its main job which is to break down defensive cores. cm lando can't get past gliscor easily enough which is too big a crutch for it. without knock off, lando can't beat latis on its own, which needs pursuit support then. char x needs to somehow not fall flat on its face vs sand offense, thundurus, ans quaggy stall, and that's a lot more of a gaping issue. you don't need to build to account for keldeo's issues like you are implicating, because it doesn't have all these issues. unless you can somehow tell me mega venusaur or latis are generally reliable keldeo answers when they're not, what you're saying really doesn't make any sense. cause if that's your anti-keldeo plan, be prepared to lose.
also megachomp needs sub to stand a chance against offense/actually do anything. i consider stone edge irrelevant if you want to consider its offense matchup relevant. chomp is worse v offense because it has two of the most exploitable stabs in the game and a draco that simply doesn't get ohkoes on some of offense's mons like it needs to. and what are its switch-in opps? they don't exist. these other pokemon particularly hera and gard can't be beat by stall without such illustrious pokemon as doublade, bronzong, and magic guard unaware clefable, while megachomp can if it doesn't want to get completely raped by offense (no, hera and gard are not). and it has a good answer on stall + mandi walls it. just don't see chomp on the same level of hera or gard, no way.
also megachomp needs sub to stand a chance against offense/actually do anything. i consider stone edge irrelevant if you want to consider its offense matchup relevant. chomp is worse v offense because it has two of the most exploitable stabs in the game and a draco that simply doesn't get ohkoes on some of offense's mons like it needs to. and what are its switch-in opps? they don't exist. these other pokemon particularly hera and gard can't be beat by stall without such illustrious pokemon as doublade, bronzong, and magic guard unaware clefable, while megachomp can if it doesn't want to get completely raped by offense (no, hera and gard are not). and it has a good answer on stall + mandi walls it. just don't see chomp on the same level of hera or gard, no way.
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Starmie atm is pretty fucken sex, it beats so much shit 1v1 and even more in actual play cuz the power from Analytic and LO makes it incredibly difficult to safely switch into, but even stuff that can (Gastro, Chansey) can't be mindless about it b/c it could very well be runnin a baited Specs/Scarf set to trick away and cripple your stall (although LO is usually better), and since we're discussing Keldo let it be reminded that Starmie beats Keldeo (unless Keld is scarfed and Starmie isn't or something). Let's see that wanky Excadrill do that out of sand. Albeit Starmie does have a small case of 4MSS and even 1 ability Syndrome, in a perfect world Starm could run Scald, Psyshock, Ice Beam, T-Bolt, Rapid Spin, and Recover, plus both Natural Cure and Analytic, but it can't unfortunately so it does have some limitations.
Anyway, Starmie for B/B+. It's pretty damn good but has noticeable flaws that prevent it from making A, but its benefits usually outweigh its shortcomings.
Anyway, Starmie for B/B+. It's pretty damn good but has noticeable flaws that prevent it from making A, but its benefits usually outweigh its shortcomings.
Chesnaught should move up if anything. No other pokemon can so easily take on ground types like lando-T, excadrill, hippowdon beat gyarados even with ice fang or bounce, while also royally screwing bisharp, sharpedo, kabutops, dnite, mega ttar, mega scizor, mega gyarados, breloom, when running the right set. It easily comes in on other bulky grass types and can taunt and proceed to setup spike while their sludge bombs and gyro balls do a whopping 0% damage. I was actually going to nominate it back to B+ once the meta settled down.
I honestly don't understand how stone edge can be considered irrevelant, because of stone edge, it is not walled by mandi and actually has a chance against Gliscor (Sp. Def.) Ground and Dragon are only exploitable if you have to lock yourself into them, but Megachomp doesn't have to, anything that would want to come in on Draco Meteor is pounded by EQ, and vice versa. The only exception is togekiss, but if you want to consider stone edge irrelevant then i'll consider toge irrelevant as well.
Where are Hera's switch in opportunities? How is hera better VS offense when talonflame is everywhere? Hera can be beaten by stall by the impish gliscor you already mentioned, which is a proven and effective set, and will rise in popularity if Hera does.
Of the illustrious pokemon you mentioned clefable is A+, and has the ability to beat megacross (Note: not counter) and again, how does offense completely rape chomp and not Mega-hera or garde? Garchomp's uninvested bulk is still quite good, slightly better than hera's, and lacks weaknesses to common types like fire, and flying, and resists stealth rock, making switching in easier.
On Sub, it certainly helps against offense, but it would help hera as well, do you see either of them using it? Hell no, because it detracts from their primary role, wallbreaking, Hera needs swords dance to 1HKO common walls, and chomp needs the extra coverage to get past it's would be counters.
Finally, if you honestly can't stand to see Chomp in the same rank as Hera or Garde, then why don't those two go directly to A, It's been mentioned already, and they certainly have a shot.
Chesnaught is underrated and under appreciated but I honestly don't see it moving up all the way to B+. B would be more realistic though. Originally Chesnaught did all of the aforementioned things but there was one thing it did extremely well that's not relevant anymore, which was wall Aegislash with the exception of like one variant. The problem now is that things like M-Gardevoir, M-Medicham, and M-Heracross will now have more relevance so it may have a harder time actually doing it's job well against such team builds that incorporate these. If anything a move up to B would be fine B+ is a bit much.
Speaking of the B rank mons....
B Rank
Going to delete the ones I think should stay or that I have no experience in to make a valid opinion and focus on the ones I believe should move up or down.
Conkeldurr (B down to B-): Ok so Conkeldurr I feel has become more and more irrelevant. Like...you see this thing in the mid 1500s cause that's where it works but after that its usefulness diminishes. Teams are for the most part either too offensive for Conkeldurr to keep up with it, or in the case of stall, can't hope to ever break it. It's role as a status absorber is not even that great either as any competent player knows not to just willingly throw out status effects when this thing is around. Too easily exploited and I think it should drop.
Lucario (B down to B-) I understand the premise of why this is here. It makes for a good sweeper, has solid priority, solid typing, etc. but when does this actually pull off everything it needs to do consistently? It only has benefits against frailer offensive teams and that's only the case of getting a +2 boost and over dependance on priority at that point. There are just too many threats that overshadow it for Lucario to truly shine and be useful to reflect its current rank. I guess I never seen it used well so maybe I'm just wrong about this but Lucario doesn't seem as viable as it's made out to be in this rank.
Raikou (B up to B+) Ok so I've been using Raikou a lot, and this thing is very underrated. I personally think it's best sets are the AV and Specs set which are fantastic on offensive teams that need a solid pivot to things like Thundurus and is pretty awesome on Rain Teams. It falls under a nice speed tier, respectable special bulk, and only needs to change one move generally (Extrasensory or Shadow Ball, pick your poison) to do what it's set out to do.
B- Rank
Alakazam (Mega) (B up to B+) Ok so every time this is brought up we go and back forth and come to the conclusion that it's B for some reason and arguments like "Well it's too dependent on Trace" are qualified as a legitimate point. It's really not that hard to utilize Trace as all it takes are a couple of good switches or even one to basically get what you need. The options are endless as well as from copying something like Regenerator to heal on the switch or something like Swift Swim to check opposing Swift Swimmers. Yeah it has some flaws like lack of priority, frail, limited to a single move set with only a slight variation, but this guy is so underrated it's disgusting. All M-Ala really needs is a pursuit trapper to truly function, and if it's behind screen support it's even more brutal. Encore is one of its best assets as it allows to slow down certain set up sweepers, such as M-Gyara and M-Ttar and proceed to KO them, or just allow your team some more turns to do what it's set out to do. I think this should move up honestly for those reasons alone outside of the other positive traits it has.
Alomomola (B- up to B) From the various people I have been discussing this with from time to time, people have been advocating this for awhile and some even want it to B+ but I think one step at a time is fine. Alomomola is just really good on stall, Regen Cores or always appreciated anyways as they provide longevity that stall always appreciates. Its massive HP allows it to have great bulk which just makes this a pain in the ass to deal with sometimes unless you're running some heavy duty offense, even then it's still going to be annoying sometimes. I've used this a couple of times on my stall teams with great success and I'm positive that B- is not a respectable rank for this. Move the fish up please.
Entei (B- up to B) Entei possess one of the most spammable moves in the game with Sacred Fire and the 50% burn on top of STAB is a huge thorn in the side of Offense, Balanced, and to a small degree, Stall, forcing a turn of cleric support to take place in most cases. Banded and Life Orb sets hit extremely hard and with Extremespeed in its arsenal and a solid speed tier for OU standards, it can make for a solid revenge killer or just spam the hell out of Sacred Fire. Entei is pretty underrated and a lot of better team builds utilize mons like Entei because the meta is so over prepared for the higher ranked stuff they forget monsters such as this. The ranks should reflect the viability of Entei a bit more.
Going to delete the ones I think should stay or that I have no experience in to make a valid opinion and focus on the ones I believe should move up or down.
Conkeldurr (B down to B-): Ok so Conkeldurr I feel has become more and more irrelevant. Like...you see this thing in the mid 1500s cause that's where it works but after that its usefulness diminishes. Teams are for the most part either too offensive for Conkeldurr to keep up with it, or in the case of stall, can't hope to ever break it. It's role as a status absorber is not even that great either as any competent player knows not to just willingly throw out status effects when this thing is around. Too easily exploited and I think it should drop.
Raikou (B up to B+) Ok so I've been using Raikou a lot, and this thing is very underrated. I personally think it's best sets are the AV and Specs set which are fantastic on offensive teams that need a solid pivot to things like Thundurus and is pretty awesome on Rain Teams. It falls under a nice speed tier, respectable special bulk, and only needs to change one move generally (Extrasensory or Shadow Ball, pick your poison) to do what it's set out to do.B- Rank
Entei (B- up to B) Entei possess one of the most spammable moves in the game with Sacred Fire and the 50% burn on top of STAB is a huge thorn in the side of Offense, Balanced, and to a small degree, Stall, forcing a turn of cleric support to take place in most cases. Banded and Life Orb sets hit extremely hard and with Extremespeed in its arsenal and a solid speed tier for OU standards, it can make for a solid revenge killer or just spam the hell out of Sacred Fire. Entei is pretty underrated and a lot of better team builds utilize mons like Entei because the meta is so over prepared for the higher ranked stuff they forget monsters such as this. The ranks should reflect the viability of Entei a bit more.
Lucario is a late-game cleaner, not a sweeper. It can get past Talonflame and weakened Thundurus (huge for a cleaner) thanks to a boosted E-Speed after SR, Iron Tail has shit accuracy but helps with Mega Venu and Fairies, and it can set-up on Bisharp that aren't Jolly (which is hilarious and something very few things can claim to do).Chesnaught is underrated and under appreciated but I honestly don't see it moving up all the way to B+. B would be more realistic though. Originally Chesnaught did all of the aforementioned things but there was one thing it did extremely well that's not relevant anymore, which was wall Aegislash with the exception of like one variant. The problem now is that things like M-Gardevoir, M-Medicham, and M-Heracross will now have more relevance so it may have a harder time actually doing it's job well against such team builds that incorporate these. If anything a move up to B would be fine B+ is a bit much.
Speaking of the B rank mons....
B Rank
Going to delete the ones I think should stay or that I have no experience in to make a valid opinion and focus on the ones I believe should move up or down.
Lucario (B down to B-) I understand the premise of why this is here. It makes for a good sweeper, has solid priority, solid typing, etc. but when does this actually pull off everything it needs to do consistently? It only has benefits against frailer offensive teams and that's only the case of getting a +2 boost and over dependance on priority at that point. There are just too many threats that overshadow it for Lucario to truly shine and be useful to reflect its current rank. I guess I never seen it used well so maybe I'm just wrong about this but Lucario doesn't seem as viable as it's made out to be in this rank.
B- Rank
Alakazam (Mega) (B up to B+) Ok so every time this is brought up we go and back forth and come to the conclusion that it's B for some reason and arguments like "Well it's too dependent on Trace" are qualified as a legitimate point. It's really not that hard to utilize Trace as all it takes are a couple of good switches or even one to basically get what you need. The options are endless as well as from copying something like Regenerator to heal on the switch or something like Swift Swim to check opposing Swift Swimmers. Yeah it has some flaws like lack of priority, frail, limited to a single move set with only a slight variation, but this guy is so underrated it's disgusting. All M-Ala really needs is a pursuit trapper to truly function, and if it's behind screen support it's even more brutal. Encore is one of its best assets as it allows to slow down certain set up sweepers, such as M-Gyara and M-Ttar and proceed to KO them, or just allow your team some more turns to do what it's set out to do. I think this should move up honestly for those reasons alone outside of the other positive traits it has.
Alomomola (B- up to B) From the various people I have been discussing this with from time to time, people have been advocating this for awhile and some even want it to B+ but I think one step at a time is fine. Alomomola is just really good on stall, Regen Cores or always appreciated anyways as they provide longevity that stall always appreciates. Its massive HP allows it to have great bulk which just makes this a pain in the ass to deal with sometimes unless you're running some heavy duty offense, even then it's still going to be annoying sometimes. I've used this a couple of times on my stall teams with great success and I'm positive that B- is not a respectable rank for this. Move the fish up please.
Yeah those are pretty solid points. I'll give you that.
1. +2 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 255-305 (72 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Just get a Swords Dance up and you bet your ass Gliscor won't be walling Mega Heracross. It's really not safe to come in on Megacross with physically defensive Gliscor at all. Specially defensive variants have a chance of being OHKOed by Rock Blast, for that matter. In other words, Stall ain't beating Mega Heracross.
2. Yeah, you're right. Mega Heracross and Mega Gardevoir should definitely be A, as I feel they usually do the job better than most stuff in A-. They're better at what they do than what most A- Pokémon do best, especially Mega Gardevoir. I've already made a huge-ass post on the previous page, so go check that out if you're interested in what I got to say.
Okay, i would like to nominate Manectric for B+ With its amazing ability in intimidate it is often able to switch into a lot of physical attackers, and hit them for super effective damage.
It is a nice check to flying spam, as well as as check check to both thundurus and landorus, two s rank threats.
In the a plus it also checks a good amount of stuff:
Azumarill: It can check both assault west, banded and belly drum set, 2hkoing every set, where they will fail to do much. the BD set cant even get off a belly drum.
Garchomp: It can check all non scarfed sets.
Greninja: It can check every set
Gyarados: (Mega) It can 2hko every set, and even outspeed +1 gya.
Keldeo: It can check both specs, lo and ebelt, but not the scarfed set
Pinsir: (Mega) It can check every set, and even fully counter some.
Scizor: (mega) It can check every set, and hard walls the most common.
Talonflame: It can check every set.
I think it deserves a B+ as i feel like it is generally more usefull than the pokes in its rank, like lucario and raikoy...
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It is a nice check to flying spam, as well as as check check to both thundurus and landorus, two s rank threats.
In the a plus it also checks a good amount of stuff:
Azumarill: It can check both assault west, banded and belly drum set, 2hkoing every set, where they will fail to do much. the BD set cant even get off a belly drum.
Scizor: (mega) It can check every set, and hard walls the most common.Talonflame: It can check every set.I think it deserves a B+ as i feel like it is generally more usefull than the pokes in its rank, like lucario and raikoy...
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1. It may not beat it directly, but it can still get a toxic off, severely shortening Cross' life span and making stalling it out much more possible.
2. I wasn't disagreeing with Cross moving up at all, It can move all the way to S for all I care.
The problem with a lot of these is that it doesn't actually check these all that well from a switch in standpoint. It doesn't want to be taking hits from Azu even after Intimidate, the AV set actually will handle M-Manectric much more easily as well. Yeah it checks non scarfed Garchomp but it needs to safely get in without getting mauled by EQ, which still does a very high amount of damage at -1. If Manectric can get into Greninja without getting blasted in the face by a LO hydro pump, then yeah M-Manectric can take it out but it's pretty shaky. M-Gyarados is shaky, cause of this.Okay, i would like to nominate Manectric for B+ With its amazing ability in intimidate it is often able to switch into a lot of physical attackers, and hit them for super effective damage.
It is a nice check to flying spam, as well as as check check to both thundurus and landorus, two s rank threats.
In the a plus it also checks a good amount of stuff:
Garchomp: It can check all non scarfed sets.
Greninja: It can check every set
Gyarados: (Mega) It can 2hko every set, and even outspeed +1 gya.
Keldeo: It can check both specs, lo and ebelt, but not the scarfed set
Pinsir: (Mega) It can check every set, and even fully counter some.
I think it deserves a B+ as i feel like it is generally more usefull than the pokes in its rank, like lucario and raikoy...
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-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Personally I think it's fine in B. It's still a solid revenge killer and has some good positive traits that reflect its rank, and base 135 speed is just awesome for OU as well.
well, thats true e.e it is a very shaky check to most of the things i listed, but its ability to come in and intimidate is really good (imo) and it just volt switches out. I just think it is a bit better than its fellow b rank pokemon...
Oh yeah I'm not really arguing those points I do agree with that. I think the B ranks are just a bit weird though cause you got some things that are more viable than others and then stuff that is just lackluster right now and hasn't moved up or down simply cause the thread tends to focus more on other things like the high ranked mons.
Mega Gyarados will actually have +0 realistically when Mega Manectric comes in due to Dragon Dance. Also, Mega Mane has to be MEvo'd beforehand otherwise it can't even get a hit in.
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