Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Ok, I would like to nominate based staraptor to B/B+. It's power is fucking insane, coupled with flying typing and fighting coverage. This makes it an INSANELY difficult pokemon to counter, with basically them being limited to Bronzong, Skarmory, and some obscure mons. It's wall breaking prowess is sky high(kek) more comparable to pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Garchomp. Also, if you think Staraptor is too weak, stop using scarf. Adamant Band is the best Staraptor set. It has power comparable to Band Kyurem B(only 7%~ weaker) and has MUCH better spammable STABs. If you can manage to get this in safely(not actually *horrifically* hard to to ground immunity, so it can come in on locked lando-t or garchomp)it can easily break something. I honestly would push for B+ because I feel it is comparable to mega medicham, but I feel that is too much of a jump for something like Staraptor. gl countering this thing with a remotely viable mon.
 
I Don't think that we can justify Clefable as an A+ rank. While it is true that it can bust through defensive teams well, I find it somewhat lacking when facing HO or even offensive balance. Also, while its bulk is far from bad, it still cannot stomach choice/LO boosted hits, especially on the physical side. as for unaware variants, stuff like Megazard X and Mega Pinsir are still gonna 2HKO or even OHKO it (with entry hazards) even without their boosts. However, I will not deny that it does do a good job of stopping dragons Without Poison Jab or Iron tail. Moreover, Clefable has pretty bad offensive presence without boosts of it's own. And setting up multiple CMs can be difficult with all the powerful threats running around in OU today. Also, Clefable is quite susceptible to taunt, keeping it from setting up and healing itself. I'm not saying that Clefable is bad, I just think it's a bit more niche than portrayed. So, I think that it should be knocked down to A- or at least A. Thanks!
 
Ok, I would like to nominate based staraptor to B/B+. It's power is fucking insane, coupled with flying typing and fighting coverage. This makes it an INSANELY difficult pokemon to counter, with basically them being limited to Bronzong, Skarmory, and some obscure mons. It's wall breaking prowess is sky high(kek) more comparable to pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Garchomp. Also, if you think Staraptor is too weak, stop using scarf. Adamant Band is the best Staraptor set. It has power comparable to Band Kyurem B(only 7%~ weaker) and has MUCH better spammable STABs. If you can manage to get this in safely(not actually *horrifically* hard to to ground immunity, so it can come in on locked lando-t or garchomp)it can easily break something. I honestly would push for B+ because I feel it is comparable to mega medicham, but I feel that is too much of a jump for something like Staraptor. gl countering this thing with a remotely viable mon.

I second that. With Aegislash gone, Staraptor has been harder to stop. With skarmory being it's true counter, Banded Brave Bird/Double Edge does huge chunk of damage. Factoring that Facade is usuable to do some damage aswell making the Bird not completely usesless after being burned by a prankster poke/bulky pokes. His Scarf set is pretty good with T-flame aswell. Being able to outspeed some threats that other wise would killed him like Gengar, Latia/Latios, Manetric (Normal switch in), Gardevoir, and other pokes aswell.
 
I Don't think that we can justify Clefable as an A+ rank. While it is true that it can bust through defensive teams well, I find it somewhat lacking when facing HO or even offensive balance. Also, while its bulk is far from bad, it still cannot stomach choice/LO boosted hits, especially on the physical side. as for unaware variants, stuff like Megazard X and Mega Pinsir are still gonna 2HKO or even OHKO it (with entry hazards) even without their boosts. However, I will not deny that it does do a good job of stopping dragons Without Poison Jab or Iron tail. Moreover, Clefable has pretty bad offensive presence without boosts of it's own. And setting up multiple CMs can be difficult with all the powerful threats running around in OU today. Also, Clefable is quite susceptible to taunt, keeping it from setting up and healing itself. I'm not saying that Clefable is bad, I just think it's a bit more niche than portrayed. So, I think that it should be knocked down to A- or at least A. Thanks!
wat

Clefable has two amazing abilities in Unaware and Magic Guard, it can be a cleric or a setup sweeper, literally any and all setup sweepers are susceptible to taunt which doesn't mean jack shit, look at Zard X, Clefable needs literally zero support, often times it IS support, and to say Clefable ain't worthy of A+ is bs
 
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literally any and all setup sweepers are susceptible to taunt which doesn't mean jack shit
While I don't disagree with you that Clefable should be nothing less than A+, the difference is that many setup sweepers are threatening even without boosts. Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Sand Rush SD Excadrill, NP Thundurus, CM Keldeo can already threaten things with their raw power. In comparison, Clefable's base 95 Special Attack is rather average in comparison, its moves have rather poor BP, and Stored Power without any boosts is ass. CM Clef isn't threatening anything without any boosts.

However, Clefable has two excellent abilities and everything it needs to abuse them, and many a team gets messed up by Clefable because they didn't prepare for it. A+ is fine.
 
asynchronousIO said:
While I don't disagree with you that Clefable should be nothing less than A+, the difference is that many setup sweepers are threatening even without boosts. Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Sand Rush SD Excadrill, NP Thundurus, CM Keldeo can already threaten things with their raw power. In comparison, Clefable's base 95 Special Attack is rather average in comparison, its moves have rather poor BP, and Stored Power without any boosts is ass. CM Clef isn't threatening anything without any boosts.However, Clefable has two excellent abilities and everything it needs to abuse them, and many a team gets messed up by Clefable because they didn't prepare for it. A+ is fine.

Really? I have never Actively prepared for Clefable and can honestly say that it has never taken out more than two of my pokemon in a battle. Also, Many setup sweepers can setup before getting taunted, Such as Mega Pinsir and Keldeo.
 
Im gonna nominate Esacavelier to Unranked to D Rank, Escavalier's best set is the assault vest which can tank alot of special hits, while bulky mega scizor can take alot of hits, azumarill and conkledurr are better assault vest uses, however tho escavalier has overcoat which it can switch into breloom and smeargle, it has a powerful move named megahorn which scizor cannot carry, also a bonus escavalier can carry moves like drill run, knock off, iron head and pursuit

also here is 2 replays for examples
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-149192081
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-149297821


I feel like escavalier maybe get outclassed by mega scizor and azumarill but what they can't do but escavalier can do is counter thundy-i
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 169-200 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 299-354 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 148-174 (49.3 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 121-142 (35.1 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Scizor: 149-177 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

even tho conkledurr can do the job too but escavalier can handle mega voir and sylveon when conk can't
escavalier handles certain big threats like thundy-i and mega garde, it can absorb spore nicely, gets great bulk 70/100/80 defense which is nice and has a unique movepool like megahorn and drill run, with that said i would like to see cavalier at D rank or heck c- rank if its possible. :)
 
Escavalier really only functions well on TR teams, which are difficult to pull off in the first place, but with Cresselia seeing new promise as a wall, Trick Room might become a more viable strategy. So perhaps Escavlier might be deserving of a rank in the near future
 
Has Lando-T to A+ been discussed?

This guy has so many sets he can run with such ridiculous proficiency... Def Pivot is SO bulky it's beyond a joke, and can set SR with ease whilst still mounting offensive pressure. Not to mention he has a sick typing. He's also easily one of the best scarfers in the tier. The sheer level of momentum either of these sets is capable of gaining is ridiculous. And when he's not gaining momentum he's either smashing something around with base 140 attack or setting up all-valuable hazards (which are even more valuable after the Aegi ban *cough* MPinsir *cough*). DoubleDance Lando-T is also crazy threatening and difficult to predict... Hell, he can even run a Banded set and nuke like half the tier whilst still being able to gain momentum.

Is none of that worth A+? Would love to hear some opinions.
 
Doublade needs to get ranked somewhere I'm thinking D maybe C-. It's useful to wall Mega Gardevoir, Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross the ladder two who don't really pack EQ anymore since Aegislash got the boot as well as Terrakion, Lucario, Latios, Latias, Breloom, Clefable, Hawlucha. It's got a not too shabby 110 base Attack and with it's low speed, it can hit hard with Gyro Ball.
 
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I'd like to welcome Starmie back from the land of obscurity. Finally some competition for Excadrill in the Rapid Spin department, with the niche of outspeeding and OHKO'ing Gengar, reliable recovery, status impunity/analytic boosts, and fantastic coverage options, not to mention its respectable bulk and speed tier that outspeeds Thundurus.

It's been too long, my starfishy friend.
 
I'd like to nominate Metagross from unranked to D.
He has a pretty cool AV set which consists of pursuit zen headbutt bullet/meteormash/ and hammer arm. With an assault vest he's an AMAZING trapper of the Lati twins and can also check Mega Venusaur. It also allows him to beat Thundurus 1 on 1. He hits pretty hard and has some great coverage.
 
Really? I have never Actively prepared for Clefable and can honestly say that it has never taken out more than two of my pokemon in a battle. Also, Many setup sweepers can setup before getting taunted, Such as Mega Pinsir and Keldeo.
CM Clefable can become a win condition with just one or two slight misplays from the opponent. Because of this perpetual threat, the opponent has to make moves that are otherwise not necessarily ideal.

I have swept with a boosted Clefable on quite a few occasions. Once it gets going, it has few real counters.
 
Has Lando-T to A+ been discussed?

This guy has so many sets he can run with such ridiculous proficiency... Def Pivot is SO bulky it's beyond a joke, and can set SR with ease whilst still mounting offensive pressure. Not to mention he has a sick typing. He's also easily one of the best scarfers in the tier. The sheer level of momentum either of these sets is capable of gaining is ridiculous. And when he's not gaining momentum he's either smashing something around with base 140 attack or setting up all-valuable hazards (which are even more valuable after the Aegi ban *cough* MPinsir *cough*). DoubleDance Lando-T is also crazy threatening and difficult to predict... Hell, he can even run a Banded set and nuke like half the tier whilst still being able to gain momentum.

Is none of that worth A+? Would love to hear some opinions.

I think c+ would be fine for thunderus T, yes it's outclassed, but it's frankly still a great poke, so while it's still outclassed( in most aspects), it's still good.

It's cousin landorus-T on the other hand, might need to get dropped a little. It has a same issue as thundy, in that you cant use as superb other form, which has higher speed, can attack from both sides, and gets a free life orb boost, along with zero life orb recoil.

It also faces competition from gliscor who has: 1. immunity to status. 2. higher speed. 3. Takes knock off better, given toxic orb activates. 4. Actual bulk, that isnt changed by the opponent switching.

Maybe A- for now, maybe somthing else later.

I made this post on why I dont think He is all that amazing, another point is that he activates defiant, but I was pretty nooby at the time, so I might be dead-wrong.
 
Has Lando-T to A+ been discussed?

This guy has so many sets he can run with such ridiculous proficiency... Def Pivot is SO bulky it's beyond a joke, and can set SR with ease whilst still mounting offensive pressure. Not to mention he has a sick typing. He's also easily one of the best scarfers in the tier. The sheer level of momentum either of these sets is capable of gaining is ridiculous. And when he's not gaining momentum he's either smashing something around with base 140 attack or setting up all-valuable hazards (which are even more valuable after the Aegi ban *cough* MPinsir *cough*). DoubleDance Lando-T is also crazy threatening and difficult to predict... Hell, he can even run a Banded set and nuke like half the tier whilst still being able to gain momentum.

Is none of that worth A+? Would love to hear some opinions.
Yes. Repeatedly. And it's always been settled that he's fine in A. The whole offensive pivot thing was thrown out the window a while back, and Lando has a bit of an overeliance on Intimidate and isn't that bulky otherwise. That, and he's easily worn down.

as for my personal views, I don't really mind either way. I love his scarf set personally as a Thundy check and momentum grabber, but I sometimes find the defensive stealth rock set a bit underwhelming at times. Then there's the sashplosion set that's surprising and fun to use. I could see him in A+, but I feel like he should stay in A.
 
I am quite adamant that Keldeo does not deserve S rank. It is so reliant on its item to actually do meaningful damage, which means it needs to play very cautiously to avoid locking into the wrong move. It's STAB combination, while good, is walled by a very large number of mons, many of which outspeed and KO or can use it as set up fodder. Scald Burns are a nice utility but they cannot be relied on to do something, getting lucky is not a reason to bump a mon. Keep at A+

Azumarill, however, is a fucking god atm. You can slap him on almost any team and he'll do a fuck load of work. The CB set is god, the AV set is god, the BD set is alright and there's even that weird defensive set w Sap Sipper that has some nice surprise factor when you gobble up your opponents CharY. Push this beast to S.

Also I heartily agree with Noivern bumping up. People sorta disregarded it after a month or so but I feel it does a fair amount of work. It needs wish support to truly shine but it can still do work without it, it just dies a lot quicker.
 

Also I heartily agree with Noivern bumping up. People sorta disregarded it after a month or so but I feel it does a fair amount of work. It needs wish support to truly shine but it can still do work without it, it just dies a lot quicker.
It's a fast special attacker, they don't really need wish support
and it has roost anyway so noivern definitely doesn't need wish support
 
It's a fast special attacker, they don't really need wish support
and it has roost anyway so noivern definitely doesn't need wish support
Being an SR weak hit and run attacker for the most part, Noivern definitely appreciates all the support it can get, wish included.

It can actually come in on a fair few threats, e.g. Fighting moves that threaten Chansey, get back up to full HP (can be useful if sash although Choiced / LO is way more common), and do some big damage or even pivot out with U-Turn. Wish support is good! It can also pivot in on subs if you suspect your safe enough, receive the wishpass and threaten the Boomburst or Switcheroo.
 
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kabbes said:
CM Clefable can become a win condition with just one or two slight misplays from the opponent. Because of this perpetual threat, the opponent has to make moves that are otherwise not necessarily ideal.

I have swept with a boosted Clefable on quite a few occasions. Once it gets going, it has few real counters.

Thank you for being polite about this and explaining it. I definitely see where you're coming from. Also, I run an HO team with many Clefable checks/counters, so I can see that Clefable would not give me trouble. thx!
 
Bringing this back now that Aegislash is gone.

loldonphan

Anyway, what keeps Latios from A+?
Latios can afford to run three offensive moves and is not as predictable as his sister. He's an excellent Defogger in the metagame, probably the best one since he has an extreme offensive presence and can sometimes get past his would-be counters, such as Heatran, Excadrill AND EVEN BISHARP. But not only that. He can also be an excellent special attacker which can be frustrating to take out if he has Roost, a nice revenge killer which outspeeds almost anything and a good lead for BP teams. This is why, in my opinion, Latios is more versatile than Latias. But I know what you're thinking: "BUUUUUUT HEALING WISH!!!". well, I'm gonna adress this first.

1) Let's sit down, and admit, that Healing Wish is a bit overrated.
First, Latias can't use this move reliably against offensive teams, as Pokemon with more than base 110 Speed, including Thundurus (who can also Taunt her), Greninja, Talonflame, Mega Alakazam, Weavile (who can Pursuit her to death) and most scarf users (notable exception: Keldeo). Then you realize the fact that LATIAS HAS TO SACRIFICE HERSELF to keep another teammate healthy.... that means you're basically playing 5 v 6 in some matches, remember back in Gen 4 when Gengar and Heatran needed Explosion to get past Blissey? Something similar is the case with Latias. This move isn't that effective against stall either, as this team archetype relies on passive damage and many times it has no problem getting SR back up.
Don't get me wrong, Healing Wish is good, but I just don't think this is enough to differentiate her from Latios. Maybe I'm just not using HW Latias at her full potential...

2) Latios is slightly stronger than her sister.
Latios can get past Heatran and Bisharp with Earthquake and nuke everything else with Draco Meteor and Psyshock. He also isn't buttfucked by Thundurus as he can OHKO the genie with DM and doesn't really care about Taunt if he used Defog before. Also, he has the ability to threaten Excadrill, which 2HKOes Latias with EQ and doesn't care about any Latias without a super effective Hidden Power.

3) Latios can play the role of a revenge killer.
Something Latias can't, as she is outclassed. This set is extremely surprising sometimes, since it can defeat unsuspecting Greninja/Thundurus/Weavile. Choice Scarf Latios outspeeds almost any other Scarfer and proceed to blast it with the appropriate move. He can also revenge kill +1 Mega Charizard X, who can be extremely hard to stop otherwise. He can even outspeed slower Swift Swim users IN THE RAIN (such as 192 Spe Seismitoad and Ludicolo). This set also excels against stall since it can render a wall such as Chansey nearly useless with Trick.

4) LATIOS DOES NOT NEED DEFOG TO FUNCTION.
As you can see on the Smogon strategydex, Latios can replace Defog with Roost and act as a powerful nuke which isn't easy to take down. I used Draco Meteor/HP Fighting/Psyshock/Roost Latios before and that set kicked ass. Any Bisharp trying to switch in (expecting Defog) is met with a HP Fighting and dies. This Latios can also switch in into Pokemon such as Thundurus, KO with Draco Meteor and then Roost back up, something Defog Latios/Latias dreams of doing.

5) Latios is an excellent Dual Screen user and lead for SmashPass/QuickPass teams.
It can easily set up dual screens against many targets, including Keldeo, Ferrothorn, non-Unaware Clefable, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Chansey and has access to Memento to allow Smeargle / Gorebyss / Scolipede to come in and set up. This works especially if the recipient is something like Espeon or Mega Absol to prevent roarers from raining on its day. Memento is much better than Healing Wish in this situation, as very few Pokemon will be able to break the recipient's substitute or even hurt it at all when it's at -2 and the opponent has both screens up, whereas Healing Wish Latias is outclassed in this case by Lunar Dance Cresselia, which is A LOT bulkier.

Spent about 20 minutes typing this post, and I think Latios is a bit better than his sister, so he should move up.

If you really think about it, Healing Wish and the ability to check Keldeo better are the only reasons to use Latias over her brother, who has much higher firepower and the ability to lure some of its would-be counters and surprise them with Earthquake or Hidden Power Fighting.

Also, Rhyperior should move up to B. It can check so many things in S/A it's not even funny. Of course it's not gonna check them all at once due to 4MSS and NO recovery if it has an Assault Vest, but: Mega Zard X, Thundurus, Mega Mawile, Dragonite, some Excadrill, Talonflame, Heatran, Mega Pinsir, Clefable, (Mega) Tyranitar, Latios, Latias, Landorus-T, Chansey and Ferrothorn. On top of that, it can reliably use a Stealth Rock set, thanks to its mammoth physical defense and attack stat.
Rhyperior's problems lie in its low special bulk (without an Assault Vest), terrible speed, 4MSS (can't run SR / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Megahorn / Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Aqua Tail at the same time) and no recovery moves bar Rest. But I still think it deserves B rank, even after Aegi's ban.

Latias: Stay A
Latios: A ---> A+
Rhyperior: B- ---> B
 
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If you really think about it, Healing Wish and the ability to check Keldeo better are the only reasons to use Latias over her brother

Those are some pretty damn good reasons though... And the extra bulk doesn't matter just for Keldeo : it also enables it to take on YZard and Landorus better (lets it live Knock Off), as well as just take random hits better in general, and honestly the power increase isn't all that significant IMO, at least, I've never had it matter much.

Also Healing Wish is way better than you give it credit for. You say it's inneffective vs offense since it's outsped by some things, but it still outpaces the vast majority of offense and therefore get a Healing Wish off with relative ease. MZam and Weavile are rare, Thundurus can't do a lot of damage to it, and most scarfed mons are EQ users which Latias actually switches in on easily. Also, and more to the point, Latias is not staying in on stuff like Greninja.
Oh, and Healing Wish is absolutely not ineffective vs stall lol. If anything, it makes Latias way more useful vs stall than Latios since it enables you to heal up your weakened stallbreaker to clean up, possibly healing a burn.

As for Lati v Thundurus... I don't see how Latias handles Thundy any worse than Latios given that Latios unlike Latias is cleanly 2HKO'd by LO HP Ice while Latias has a solid chance to live (you even have a tiny chance to live 2 after LO recoil with Latias), and the DMeteor damage difference does not matter, since both OHKO after LO damage, and even if Thundy goes for TWave or carries Lefties, Latias has a 87.5% chance to OHKO so it's not like you're going to miss out on the KO often. Latias clearly deals with Thundurus better than Latios overral Also the point about deffoging on Taunt Thundy makes no sense at all, idk what to make of it. Firstly, Thundurus never carries Taunt afaik. Secondly, unless you're using Scarf Defog Latios (lol), you're not defogging before Thundy Taunts you, unless it switches in on defog fsr in which case why can't Latias do that to.

That being said, I'm not disagreeing with Latios for A+, on the contrary. It's a meta-defining force that checks the some of the most powerful mons in the tier, is the hazard remover of choice for offensive teams, and obviouly benefitted from the Aegi ban. However, I feel like it would be just wrong to not give Latias the same treatement. In fact, Latias's pros and cons compared to Latios outweigh each other so perfectly that I don't see any reason for them to ever share a different rank, unless something crazy happens like Latios getting Psycho Boost and not Latias.
Latias and Latios for A+
 
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I'm sorry if this has been discussed thoroughly already but I think Bisharp should move from A+ to A. It is an excellent defog punisher and pursuit trapper but can't take much hits and lacks high damage attacks so it's a bit reliant on stealth rock support or defiant boost or sword dance to ohko other pokes. And while psychics fear pursuit the lati twins can escape the pursuit trap if Bisharp isn't at full health.

Not a bad poke by any means but not one of the best imo.
 
I'm sorry if this has been discussed thoroughly already but I think Bisharp should move from A+ to A. It is an excellent defog punisher and pursuit trapper but can't take much hits and lacks high damage attacks so it's a bit reliant on stealth rock support or defiant boost or sword dance to ohko other pokes. And while psychics fear pursuit the lati twins can escape the pursuit trap if Bisharp isn't at full health.

Not a bad poke by any means but not one of the best imo.
Bisharp has no reason to move down. It's still by far the best Defog punisher in the tier and the banishment of Aegislash has made it an excellent offensive partner for Mega Gardevoir, with whom Bisharp has nigh-flawless type synergy. It works equally well with Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross, the two other rising wallbreakers. On top of that, its base 125 Attack is still as excellent as ever and its Steel/Dark-type remains ever magnificent. Bisharp should stay A+.
 
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