By the way, Ferroseed's name is misspelled as 'Feroseed' on the list, just making note of that.
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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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By the way, Ferroseed's name is misspelled as 'Feroseed' on the list, just making note of that.
Yeah, I'm gonna say that Lucario isn't quite S, given that it is frail, and also quite one-dimensional. As Kyuzeth said, it does have a weakness to fire-type attacks, which is bad given how common those moves are. It is a very threatening Pokemon able to tear a hole in an unprepared team, but it is too easy to prepare for and isn't quite as good as things such as Heracross or Hydreigon. Stay in A+.
So while we're talking about mons that aren't in the topic title right now, could we please Unrank Dusclops and Electrivire? Correct me If I'm wrong, but I just don't see what niche they possibly have in UU, not even a tiny one. I don't think they belong on the viability list at all.
I only want to deal with major changes right now.
Lucario being one dimensional? What are you talking about? Lucario has two different sets with an entirely different list of checks and counters. Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets are both very, very good and can destroy teams after one turn of set-up. Honestly, to say Lucario is one dimensional is ludicrous. What happens when you send a Slowbro in on a NP luc? NP luc is actually very hard to stop defensively, so a lot of times stall will have no answer for it. On the other hand, SD can destroy offense as we all know. I really do think Lucario should be S rank. In two sets it can single handedly take down almost the entire meta. While each set individually does have its checks and counters, the set won't be revealed until it sets up. This can leave the opponent second guessing decisions and the like during the course of a watch, having to keep checks to both sets. While Lucario is frail, it only needs one turn to set up, which honestly isn't that hard to come by. I'd say it's pretty clear it belongs in S.
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Okay then. I disagree with moving Blissey out of S rank. Yes she gives free turns in some situations, but she also gives her teammates free turns in equal measure.
It's definitely a really deadly sweeper, but Lucario has some really nasty weaknesses for the tier it's in, mainly to Fire-type moves. Steel/Fighting may have several defensive perks, doubly resisting Rock and Bug while also resisting Dark and Grass, but none of those types are really common in UU, while its low 70/70/70 defenses make it really difficult for Lucario to switch in. As I've mentioned, base 90 Speed puts it in an awkward speed tier that leaves it outsped by common powerhouses such as Infernape, Victini, Hydreigon and Heracross. Slowbro stops physical variants cold, while Aromatisse can deal with any Lucario lacking a Steel-type move. While a highly powerful Pokémon, Lucario just doesn't cut it to be in S-Rank; compared to former S-Ranker Infernape, it doesn't have as many pros as the ape, who eventually moved down to A+ itself. As a final point, Lucario suffers from a crippling case of 4MSS: if it doesn't run Extreme Speed, it'll easily be outsped and KOed; if not running Crunch, Slowbro hardwalls it. Special variants have a similar issue: if not running Vacuum Wave, it's revenged with ease; if not running Flash Cannon, it's walled by Aromatisse and, to a lesser extent, Blissey. Keep it in A+.
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OK, I see this brought up often so I'm just going to address it now: who cares about what Lucario is weak to? When it sets up, it's either setting up on something that gives it a free turn (e.g. Blissey) or while it's forcing something out. Lucario is not switching in. It's coming in on a U-turn/Volt Switch, or maybe after a teammate is KO'd. What it's weak to really doesn't matter. Lucario's speed isn't really an issue because the Nasty Plot set is primarily for defensive teams, while the Swords Dance set carries Espeed for faster things anyway. So the speed is only really an issue for faster things that also resist Normal. That's what, Cobalion, Jirachi, and Mega Aero? The only one out of those that really matters is Mega Aero, which can't switch in to CC anyway. You can run Bullet Punch for it anyway (though that does leave you walled by Slowbro). On your point of Luc being 'stopped cold' by Slowbro:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 299-354 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Uhh yeah no. You also make very poor points on the topic of 4MSS. Lucario doesn't really have to choose between Espeed and Crunch...it can run both with relative ease. The only case of 4MSS on the SD set is Crunch vs. Bullet Punch, which is the choice between one of two mons. How the hell does Bliss wall a NP Luc that doesn't carry Flash Cannon? That literally makes no sense.
I don't think anything you said disproves any of my points.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 299-354 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Uhh yeah no. You also make very poor points on the topic of 4MSS. Lucario doesn't really have to choose between Espeed and Crunch...it can run both with relative ease. The only case of 4MSS on the SD set is Crunch vs. Bullet Punch, which is the choice between one of two mons. How the hell does Bliss wall a NP Luc that doesn't carry Flash Cannon? That literally makes no sense.
I don't think anything you said disproves any of my points.
I forgot to mention it's Crunch-less physical variants that can't touch Slowbro, sorry 'bout that. Still, my points on Lucario's awkward speed tier and its nasty Fire-type weakness stand and those two flaws are what, in my opinion, are what keep it in A+.
That one-dimensional comment was poorly written, I apologize for that. I am aware that Lucario can run multiple sets, but sadly the other non-SD variants are almost never seen. Looking at last month's 1760 stats, Nasty Plot only managed 7.7% usage on Lucario, and no special move had over 10% usage. Thus, special variants of Lucario are rarely used, and the physical set is really the only one commonly used. One-dimensional was not good wording, sorry about that.
Shiftry also has a niche as a Chlorophyll sweeper.
As for Archeops, I'm thinking C-. It's quite powerful and fairly fast but it's rather outclassed by Aero/Mega Aero. Also, most common priority can bring it into Defeatist range at the least. The lack of Flying Gem this gen really hurts it as well. Despite all these flaws, I see Archeops as having a tiny niche due to its awesome power and decent coverage. There's not much that wants to switch in on it when its hp is above half.
I second this. Also Lucario's typing is really good for a setup sweeper. Its resistances to Dragon, Dark, Bug and Rock type helps tremendously in setting up. The fact that it sets up on scarf Hydrei if it is locked into Draco or Dark Pulse means you can have plenty set up opportunities as long as you have teammates that lure Hydrei out aka Haxorus or Chandelure. Also highly discourages people to blindly spam choiced Knock Offs and Megahorns due to the fact that once Luke sets up it is hard to stop. And sets up on Blissey easily against defensive teams if it lacks T.wave or Fire Blast. Sure, Kyuzeth, it has a weakness to Fire, but it isn't like being weak to Fire is the end of the world. Heracross is weak to fire too, but it is S rank. Don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree just as don't judge Lucario by looking at what it provides defensively to a team.
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Most BP sets I've seen are SD/CC/BP/ES and drop Crunch.
Are you telling me that you don't run Crunch on pretty much every SD set? I use SD CC Crunch and Extreme Speed. Also, how does Flash Cannon make you not walled by Blissey?
About Flash Cannon: I was referring to being walled by Aromatisse if running Flash Cannon on special sets and Blissey in general faring well against special Lucario variants. Sorry for being unclear.
For the record, I've only used Agility and NP Lucario, so I'll try SD out.
Any Hydreigon set can live a +2 Adamant Extremespeed even with rocks and kill in return with Fire Blast. Given the popularity of that 'mon, as long as it's there Lucario will have a tough time sweeping.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 242-285 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Gee, I wonder how you could ever weaken Hydreigon by 12-25% before sweeping with Luke.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 439-517 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yes, Blissey does fare well against special Lucario, I agree.
Shinra, the usage of Nasty Plot on the ladder isn't too relevant, it's a threatening set that it has, it shouldn't matter how many people use it. Example: last generation, the main reason for the Froslass suspect and ban was BulkyLass, but the majority of people were using suicide spikes the whole time. Didn't make it less broken. Lucario is the most threatening sweeper in the tier, and it deserves to be S-rank. Sure, it's weak to Fighting, Fire, and Ground, but it also has useful resistances. Justified and its typing make it a good Hydreigon check, especially since not all Scarf sets run Fire Blast. It is frail, but it's bulky enough to set up on resisted hits, and it forces a ton of switches because it's so scary and hard to stop once it gets going.
Gee, I wonder how you could ever weaken Hydreigon by 12-25% before sweeping with Luke.
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 439-517 (67.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yes, Blissey does fare well against special Lucario, I agree.
Shinra, the usage of Nasty Plot on the ladder isn't too relevant, it's a threatening set that it has, it shouldn't matter how many people use it. Example: last generation, the main reason for the Froslass suspect and ban was BulkyLass, but the majority of people were using suicide spikes the whole time. Didn't make it less broken. Lucario is the most threatening sweeper in the tier, and it deserves to be S-rank. Sure, it's weak to Fighting, Fire, and Ground, but it also has useful resistances. Justified and its typing make it a good Hydreigon check, especially since not all Scarf sets run Fire Blast. It is frail, but it's bulky enough to set up on resisted hits, and it forces a ton of switches because it's so scary and hard to stop once it gets going.
Agreeing with dingbat, though it pains me to rate my favorite Pokemon as low. Archeops is just... Not good. Defeatist is too inhibiting. Maybe in a world without Slowbro and Suicune it would rank higher, but its movepool leaves it too vulnerable to physical walls, especially when all the best physical walls all hit Archeops super effectively. A scarf set is neat-ish for OHKOing most of the common scarfers (Darmanitan, Victini [though that one isn't guaranteed and can use a bit of prior damage], Mienshao, and Heracross), but now you're really weak unless you run Head Smash.
I haven't seen Zoroark in weeks. Unfortunately, its very presence in Team Preview puts your opponent on the defensive, and only shitty players like myself will fall for it. A really really really smart player can use that against a skilled opponent to out-psyche them, but that is completely outside Zoroark. Then it's just skilled battler vs. skilled battler. I'd put Zoroark in B- because he DOES have a varied and excellent movepool as well as solid offensive stats, but he's also VERY frail and he came a generation late (Jesus fuck, could you IMAGINE Zoroark in a world without Team Preview?). Take all of that with a grain of salt because I'm not sober and again, that's 80% theorymon because I haven't seen one in so long I barely remember how it works.
Leave Luke in A+. He's dangerous as shit after a Swords Dance, but GETTING that Swords Dance relies more on good play, not on Lucario being that damn good. He needs to stay as high as A+ because a +2 Lucario can very well spell the end of a game against virtually every team archetype, Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, but it's not at all beyond even a stall team to sac a Pokemon trying to get as much damage on him as possible so he can be revenged. tl;dr: Lucario is fucking powerful, but he doesn't all-but-play the game for you like some other S rank threats of the past/present.
I haven't seen Zoroark in weeks. Unfortunately, its very presence in Team Preview puts your opponent on the defensive, and only shitty players like myself will fall for it. A really really really smart player can use that against a skilled opponent to out-psyche them, but that is completely outside Zoroark. Then it's just skilled battler vs. skilled battler. I'd put Zoroark in B- because he DOES have a varied and excellent movepool as well as solid offensive stats, but he's also VERY frail and he came a generation late (Jesus fuck, could you IMAGINE Zoroark in a world without Team Preview?). Take all of that with a grain of salt because I'm not sober and again, that's 80% theorymon because I haven't seen one in so long I barely remember how it works.
Leave Luke in A+. He's dangerous as shit after a Swords Dance, but GETTING that Swords Dance relies more on good play, not on Lucario being that damn good. He needs to stay as high as A+ because a +2 Lucario can very well spell the end of a game against virtually every team archetype, Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, but it's not at all beyond even a stall team to sac a Pokemon trying to get as much damage on him as possible so he can be revenged. tl;dr: Lucario is fucking powerful, but he doesn't all-but-play the game for you like some other S rank threats of the past/present.
Your calcs just show that Archeops has now killed itself from recoil.
The thing is Bulky Aero is the best set it can run, which can Defog, set up Rocks, along with having good bulk, with certain spreads able to deal with various pokemon. Another reason is the speed. Mega Aero checks like half the offensive threats in UU. Archeops is literally killing itself when it spams Head Smash. I think there's a place for Archeops in C-, definitely not higher. His flaws are so great, has a god awful ability that means spamming its strongest move kills its damage output. Aero is faster, the only thing Archeops really has is a special movepool and good SpA, which is not worth using. Also Aero can afford to run HP on offensive sets too thnx to its 150 speed. Along with its support capabilities, it blows Archeops outta the water. However the small niche of having a 1 time nuke in CB Head Smash, and Dingbats Stallbreaker is enough to keep it out of D, though not my much imo. When there are nukes like Victini, Heracross, etc who all take hits and have multiple viable sets it's very hard to ever find a slot where Archeops is the best mon for the position.
I used Zoro prior to the Volc test and I gotta say I really like it. With LO, its Knock Off/Sucker Punches are (barely) stronger than Mega Absol's, and although its SD set is generally outclassed by said Absol, Illusion combined with the right partner really helps in setting up. I tried it with NP Ape and they were pretty good together, since unboosted Knock Off OHKOes Victini, one of the better offensive checks to Ape, while if Zoro manages to get an SD off it can OHKO Mega Aero, Crobat, and can even KO Mienshao with some prior damage (it does 81% min). Not to mention they take the same damage from hazards and have LO recoil. If I had to pick one of the only things it has over Absol—not counting taking up a mega slot, since Absol is one of the best megas anyway—it'd be the ability to actually set up on WoW Mew when disguised as Ape, since that's probably the epitome of a 50/50. Unless you're Nas , you're probably not gonna try WoWing an Infernape and will go for the Knock Off/switch out, while against said Absol Mew can choose to stay in and take advantage of Synchronize if it's healthy enough—obviously a big risk because if Absol Knocks Off you die to burn damage, but one people could be willing to take if a +2 Absol sweeps them.
Zoro still has the mixed set going for it, with GK to OHKO Rhype and Swampert, and the last move depending on the team and the partner you're gonna want to disguise it most of the time (meaning that something like Flamethrower would be pointless with Ape, since no Forry is staying in on you). That set allows it to not risk taking damage, since Zoro's defenses ARE pretty bad and it has to rely on Illusion to set up virtually always.
All that said and although I like Zoro, I don't think it's on par with the B+ mons, while outside of Snorlax it's niche enough to be on B. B- is acceptable too of course, but I gotta say, the Knock Off boost plus the Infernape drop really helped it, since otherwise it wouldn't be as scary as it can be. It's just sad that most roles it can take can be done better by something else, but overall Zoro is pretty cool.
I'm hesitant to putting Luke in S because I feel its NP set isn't that good. Yea it wrecks slower things, but so does NP Ape, which has a stronger STAB plus it's faster, meaning that it can do better against offense even w/o Vacuum. STAB Flash Cannon would be really good if Florges was better, but as it stands, +2 Fire Blast does enough to other fairies, and it's not even much weaker than +2 Dark Pulse against SpD Mew—of course, if that's running Psychic it's gonna beat Ape but not Luke. Due to that, the focus should be put mainly in the SD set, which is definitely great, but it can't do everything: no Crunch means Slowbro and Chandy win and Mew burns, no Ice Punch means Queen (and Gligar I guess) beat you, no BP means Aroma beats you and Sableye burns you all the time, while Mega Aero can rk more easily, and no ESpeed means Victini and Infernape rk you easily, while Crobat, Scarf Hera, and Hydreigon beat you more reliably. That's not even taking Volc's presence into account, which would make Luke a definite no S as opposed to a maybe.
Edit: For the record I was stating the reasons why it wouldn't be S, not saying it's bad; we all know Luke's amazing so there's no point on emphazising that further.
Zoro still has the mixed set going for it, with GK to OHKO Rhype and Swampert, and the last move depending on the team and the partner you're gonna want to disguise it most of the time (meaning that something like Flamethrower would be pointless with Ape, since no Forry is staying in on you). That set allows it to not risk taking damage, since Zoro's defenses ARE pretty bad and it has to rely on Illusion to set up virtually always.
All that said and although I like Zoro, I don't think it's on par with the B+ mons, while outside of Snorlax it's niche enough to be on B. B- is acceptable too of course, but I gotta say, the Knock Off boost plus the Infernape drop really helped it, since otherwise it wouldn't be as scary as it can be. It's just sad that most roles it can take can be done better by something else, but overall Zoro is pretty cool.
I'm hesitant to putting Luke in S because I feel its NP set isn't that good. Yea it wrecks slower things, but so does NP Ape, which has a stronger STAB plus it's faster, meaning that it can do better against offense even w/o Vacuum. STAB Flash Cannon would be really good if Florges was better, but as it stands, +2 Fire Blast does enough to other fairies, and it's not even much weaker than +2 Dark Pulse against SpD Mew—of course, if that's running Psychic it's gonna beat Ape but not Luke. Due to that, the focus should be put mainly in the SD set, which is definitely great, but it can't do everything: no Crunch means Slowbro and Chandy win and Mew burns, no Ice Punch means Queen (and Gligar I guess) beat you, no BP means Aroma beats you and Sableye burns you all the time, while Mega Aero can rk more easily, and no ESpeed means Victini and Infernape rk you easily, while Crobat, Scarf Hera, and Hydreigon beat you more reliably. That's not even taking Volc's presence into account, which would make Luke a definite no S as opposed to a maybe.
Edit: For the record I was stating the reasons why it wouldn't be S, not saying it's bad; we all know Luke's amazing so there's no point on emphazising that further.
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A while back I reached #1 on the ladder with a Shedinja/Zoroark team. This was back before the Zam/Blissey/Infernape/etc drops so the meta has changed quite a bit since then. That team isn't nearly as good as it used to be, but not because of Zoroark; it's mostly because Shedinja has a lot more counters in the tier.
I'd give Zoroark a B rank. He's not outclassed in any way, shape or form because nothing else can do what he does. That B rank is solely because he's hard to fit into a team. In order to really make him work you have to base your team around Zoroark, and that limits your options. That said, he's extremely valuable. He can go special or physical, and even special sets can use an uninvested sucker punch with a life orb to give you the 2nd strongest priority in the tier (after a fully invested Absol).
I'd give Zoroark a B rank. He's not outclassed in any way, shape or form because nothing else can do what he does. That B rank is solely because he's hard to fit into a team. In order to really make him work you have to base your team around Zoroark, and that limits your options. That said, he's extremely valuable. He can go special or physical, and even special sets can use an uninvested sucker punch with a life orb to give you the 2nd strongest priority in the tier (after a fully invested Absol).
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Articuno is really shitty imo, it is very hard to fit on any type of team, because of its terrible defensive typing and lack of powerful niche. It is weak to fire and has a massive SR weakness, making its switchins very limited. On the otherhand it can deal with bulky waters (not crocune) and has a pretty strong Hurricane (which misses 90% of the time lol) Im going to say C is the highest it should be ranked, but I feel C- or D fits it more because of its massive lack of niche and extremly limited switchins.
EDIT: Also it looses to like every special attacker above A- in the tier, witch is pretty shit if its going to be a sp.def poke. As an offensive mon Moltres is like 13 times better (and moltres is already pretty mediocre) because of its massive sp.atk and powerful Specs fire blast (which 2HKOs Blissey in sun) D is the only rank I can realisticly see it in.
EDIT: Also it looses to like every special attacker above A- in the tier, witch is pretty shit if its going to be a sp.def poke. As an offensive mon Moltres is like 13 times better (and moltres is already pretty mediocre) because of its massive sp.atk and powerful Specs fire blast (which 2HKOs Blissey in sun) D is the only rank I can realisticly see it in.
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