Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Numera]

Dont understand why people get so offended when i put out a rather odd suggestion.
Hes easily the best Defogger, im not saying that hes a pile of shit. Im just saying that the meta kinda likes Steel types and Bisharp. Do you think A+ rank is bad, too? MGallade, Bisharp, Heatran, Lando T, MMeta all reside there. They are like the defining forces of OU, and you are going ahead to say i should Golurk? I understand you are trying to emphazise your opinion, and since youre opinion is superior popularity-wise to mine i will drop it and we can be friends.

Although Latios has an extremely minor case of 4MSS in my eyes and it doesnt to yours, sometimes i might want to OHKO Scizor with HP fire before it uses Pursuit and nearly KO's me, or use EQ to take out Heatran easily, etc. Thats the point im trying to make. Were only forced to run 3 moves, and then we have 5 others to choose from. I honestly think that a little bit of 4MSS.

And no, I do not need to Golurk because i made a different suggestion. Thank you for the offer, though.

I was literally just trying to say that I think that your view on Latios is wrong. I know you don't think it's shit, I just think you're underselling it and creating flaws that don't exist. Pursuit Scizor is honestly too rare of a thing for you to be worrying about and a huge amount of Latios partners easily deal with Tran. You will not miss those moves at all.

I only think you need to lurk because of your lack of metagame knowledge, easily seen in how you dismiss TrickScarf Latios as rare and gimmicky. The offer was not made for offence, merely for your own benefit.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

I was literally just trying to say that I think that your view on Latios is wrong. I know you don't think it's shit, I just think you're underselling it and creating flaws that don't exist. Pursuit Scizor is honestly too rare of a thing for you to be worrying about and a huge amount of Latios partners easily deal with Tran. You will not miss those moves at all.

I only think you need to lurk because of your lack of metagame knowledge, easily seen in how you dismiss TrickScarf Latios as rare and gimmicky. The offer was not made for offence, merely for your own benefit.

I read everything wrong on Smogon. Well, I must of gotten defensive, my bad.
And honestly ive never seen Latios in my entire time (7-8 months) with a TrickScarf set. I dont know.
well, I guess youre right, ill just lurk for like 2 months and maybe post things that arent too extreme.

 

[WideTomato]

By less powerfull I ment that fire spam got. Worse in this meta, since rain got better and mega altaria and spdef slowbro are more common it seems like.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Altaria in Sun: 150-177 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Altaria in Sun: 150-177 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria in Sun: 109-129 (30.7 - 36.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Pixilate Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 83-98 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 129-153 (43.4 - 51.5%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

I mean, zard have a very beneficial matchup against offensive and bulky variants, and spdeff wont do anything back. Zard will 1v1 the two other variants

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowbro in Sun: 130-153 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Its not like spdeff slowbro can switch in, it cant even beat it at full hp even if it is provided a free switchin

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Politoed: 110-130 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
I mean, rain have gotten better but toad is easy to wear down, and the matchup is in the sun, it can get a kill, or double into sharp/ttar and trap latias.

rain have gotten better, but honestly i see zards matchup against rain really good, thanks to its ability to easlily get rid of rain. And considdering how pressured politoed is, it is likely to die late game, where rain teams tend to rely on their last 8 turns of rain to clean op.

 

[Talpr0ne]

You can't ignore facts

 

[AM]

Hm ok so some of these were brought up.

Lando-T should stay A+. I think a lot of people are confusing viability between usage when they bring up how it's S rank. Lando-T is annoying, but it's not some sort of Pokemon that you can just throw on every team and be successful with it. You still have to take into account its limitations in terms of move pool and the fact that if you have a decent answer for bulky ground types you more than likely covered Lando-T. It's not something like Thundurus where you can prepare for it and still get beat by another of its variants with ease. When you have something like Chesnaught becoming more viable on stall teams, Quagsire having more relevancy to account for the various physical set up sweepers in the tier, and then on top of that the massive bulk that is possible with these stall teams it's pretty hard for me to see how it actually breaks stall efficiently, and yes I'm taking into account Swords Dance.

I do think Latios going to A+ is perfectly legitimate because of the nature of Stall teams in that they have answers to just about every variant of Latios so it has issues dealing with these teams. Jirachi viability has pretty much improved overtime so that puts a stop to just about most of its sets, base 110 speed is only above average for offense standards now a day, and then you have to take into account more M-Metagross, M-Diancie, M-Altaria, Greninja, Fake Out M-Lopunny, Klefki and a lot of trends that aren't exactly in Latios' favor. Also sucks that it's in a bit of a crowded speed tier against a couple of these named plus M-Gallade and other Latis, so now its effectiveness is riding off of a speed tie when not using Scarf or Tailwind. I think it can threaten a lot of play-styles but I feel like it's lost a bit of effectiveness in the ORAS meta where Latios was extremely viable on teams in XY while now I find myself wishing that it could threaten everything as easily as it did before.

 

[heritage]

Hm ok so some of these were brought up.

Lando-T should stay A+. I think a lot of people are confusing viability between usage when they bring up how it's S rank. Lando-T is annoying, but it's not some sort of Pokemon that you can just throw on every team and be successful with it. You still have to take into account its limitations in terms of move pool and the fact that if you have a decent answer for bulky ground types you more than likely covered Lando-T. It's not something like Thundurus where you can prepare for it and still get beat by another of its variants with ease. When you have something like Chesnaught becoming more viable on stall teams, Quagsire having more relevancy to account for the various physical set up sweepers in the tier, and then on top of that the massive bulk that is possible with these stall teams it's pretty hard for me to see how it actually breaks stall efficiently, and yes I'm taking into account Swords Dance.

I'd like to argue with you on that one. Lando-T is very easy to put on any sort of team. It's very easy to mold it into whatever your team needs, since it's move pool is extensive and its coverage is great. It's got great moves like Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Knock Off and U-Turn, as well as, arguably, one of the best abilities in the game..

Once again, definition of an S Rank Pokémon:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. Obviously, Landorus is amazing. Read above.

These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Landorus is capable of fulfilling almost anything it needs to. It's a great Scarf Pokémon, a bulky part of the Volt-Turn combo and is a great late game cleaner.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. Name some negatives about using Landorus-T. The Ice weakness? Add something to your team that resists Ice type and you're good.

I agree that with the rest of your post, but Lando-T is an S Rank Pokémon at its finest, and with how great it is as a check to the most threatening physical sweepers, it deserves it more than anything else at the moment.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

I agree with Landorus-T for S Rank. I understand AM's point about its limitations against stall; however, Lando can still prove a problem for these teams because of its excellent support movepool. Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Knock Off are all moves that stall teams do not want to see. With the resurgence of Jirachi-Tentacruel as a core, as well as favorable matchups against new Megas like Lopunny and non-Ice Punch Gallade, Lando-T now has even more targets to smack around. Lando just does so many things effectively, and supports so many styles of play, that I feel like it definitely deserves an S-rank.

Also agree with Latios to A+ rank for the reasons AM listed.

Finally, I would like to nominate Azumarill from A+ -> A rank. The metagame is getting faster and hitting harder, which is bad news for any slow mon without reliable recovery. The new slate of Megas was not kind to Azu at all, with Sableye and Sceptile both posing huge threats to it, and the trend towards powerful physical attackers means that the AV set is losing relevance by the day.

 

[AM]

I'd like to argue with you on that one. Lando-T is very easy to put on any sort of team. It's very easy to mold it into whatever your team needs, since it's move pool is extensive and its coverage is great. It's got great moves like Rock Polish, Swords Dance, Knock Off and U-Turn, as well as, arguably, one of the best abilities in the game..

Once again, definition of an S Rank Pokémon:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. Obviously, Landorus is amazing. Read above.

These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Landorus is capable of fulfilling almost anything it needs to. It's a great Scarf Pokémon, a bulky part of the Volt-Turn combo and is a great late game cleaner.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. Name some negatives about using Landorus-T. The Ice weakness? Add something to your team that resists Ice type and you're good.

I agree that with the rest of your post, but Lando-T is an S Rank Pokémon at its finest, and with how great it is as a check to the most threatening physical sweepers, it deserves it more than anything else at the moment.

Talonflame has great utility such as Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Gale Wings, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Natural Gift so having a bunch of useful moves isn't exactly an argument towards being S. It has to be able to effectively use all these options under whatever circumstances provided and Intimidate is really not one of the best abilities in the game when M-Manectric / Lando-T cores become a liability against Bisharp and Pokemon such as Keldeo, Char-Y, and Latios for the most part aren't exactly concerned with this what so ever.

Once again, definition of an S Rank Pokémon:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. Obviously, Landorus is amazing. Read above.

Subjective so let's talk about objective traits. If you're using Defensive Lando-T assuming as your rock setter you now need to take into account offense, stall that implements bulky water types and grass types, M-Sableye, and the x4 Ice Weakness becomes more apparent here due to its lack of speed. Scarf Lando-T is prone to Bisharp, priority, coming in over and over again on Stealth Rock, has to play a prediction game a quarter of the time, and this set just doesn't break any stall and in some scenarios is mediocre against Semi-Stall and more bulky Balanced builds. It provides momentum no arguing that but once again now it becomes a prediction game. Lando-T is a great late game cleaner when its teammate provide that support. That is enough support necessary for Lando-T to not be at S rank imo. The only set that realistically threatens many play-styles is double dance and this one more or less has issues with all the reasons above dependent on teambuild but in terms of its effectiveness it's one of the few sets that can be utilized well with few problems.

These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Landorus is capable of fulfilling almost anything it needs to. It's a great Scarf Pokémon, a bulky part of the Volt-Turn combo and is a great late game cleaner.

Sort of an exaggeration because of the reasons stated above so let's bring up the A rank which Lando-T realistically falls under.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

I never said Lando-T was bad but it's definitely not exactly as fantastic as one is making it out to be. Lando-T still has risk involved that can be compensated with proper team-building and this all goes off of one set. It's not like Greninja where it can tailor its moveset to literally everything in the tier or Thundurus who surpasses Lando-T in versatility and utility which allows it to be successful against plenty of more in the tier.

Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. Name some negatives about using Landorus-T. The Ice weakness? Add something to your team that resists Ice type and you're good.

I stated some negatives to the various sets above. Heatran x4 resists Ice and still gets demolished by Low Kick Weavile. Empoleon x4 resists Ice and will still get heavily damaged by HP Ice variant Thundurus through Thunderbolt. So adding a x4 Ice resist is not exactly some sort of compensation that makes Lando-T S rank when it's about how one handles specific threats, not general type advantages alone.

 

[theV8man]

I agree with Landorus-T for S Rank. I understand AM's point about its limitations against stall; however, Lando can still prove a problem for these teams because of its excellent support movepool. Stealth Rock, U-Turn and Knock Off are all moves that stall teams do not want to see. With the resurgence of Jirachi-Tentacruel as a core, as well as favorable matchups against new Megas like Lopunny and non-Ice Punch Gallade, Lando-T now has even more targets to smack around. Lando just does so many things effectively, and supports so many styles of play, that I feel like it definitely deserves an S-rank.

Also agree with Latios to A+ rank for the reasons AM listed.

Finally, I would like to nominate Azumarill from A+ -> A rank. The metagame is getting faster and hitting harder, which is bad news for any slow mon without reliable recovery. The new slate of Megas was not kind to Azu at all, with Sableye and Sceptile both posing huge threats to it, and the trend towards powerful physical attackers means that the AV set is losing relevance by the day.

Don't really agree with Azumarill going to A. The metagame speeding up doesn't really matter because Azumarill was getting outsped 24/7 las gen anyway. It's true that things are hitting harder, but Azumarill can pretty much check all of the new fast megas minus maybe Beedrill and Metagross. AV Azumarill can check Sceptile without Leaf Storm, and kinda destroys Mega Sableye even when burned. The main disadvantages Azumarill faces this gen imo are Mega Slowbro and GS Greninja. Troublesome things, but I don't think it's quite enough to push it down a rank as Azumarill still checks a lot of dangerous stuff and doesn't really need support. Azumarill's priority is also more useful than ever. Keel Azumarill at A+ imo.

 

[Srn]

Hm ok so some of these were brought up.

Lando-T should stay A+. I think a lot of people are confusing viability between usage when they bring up how it's S rank. Lando-T is annoying, but it's not some sort of Pokemon that you can just throw on every team and be successful with it. You still have to take into account its limitations in terms of move pool and the fact that if you have a decent answer for bulky ground types you more than likely covered Lando-T. It's not something like Thundurus where you can prepare for it and still get beat by another of its variants with ease. When you have something like Chesnaught becoming more viable on stall teams, Quagsire having more relevancy to account for the various physical set up sweepers in the tier, and then on top of that the massive bulk that is possible with these stall teams it's pretty hard for me to see how it actually breaks stall efficiently, and yes I'm taking into account Swords Dance.

Lando-t is more versatile than u give it credit for lol. Lets say i have a gliscor, toxic/acro/taunt/roost, defensive for mega hera and other stuff.
Seems like I have bulky ground covered, right? Wrong, this set totally loses to the SubSD set, which is used to set up on mew and gliscor (and it does, very very easily). Unless chesnaught is carrying seed bomb, thats just set up fodder too. And even then:
-1 0 Atk Chesnaught Seed Bomb vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 67-79 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
I didn't just specialize the HP evs for this specific scenario either, 56 hp is used to tank 2 LO iron heads from exca almost gauranteed.

Lets say i have a quaggy. Seems like i'm covered right? Wrong, the offensive RP+3 attacks set pretty much 2HKOs Quagsire with eq.
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Since this set carries knock off over the traditional SD, you don't have to worry about weakening latios or gengar either to beat with stone edge.
Just cuz u don't see sets other than defensive and scarf on the ladder, doesn't mean that no other viable sets exist.

Besides, keldeo was easy as hell to check and counter, that didn't stop it from being S rank. Keldeo is never going to really break stall efficiently on its own either, it was still S rank. Keldeo hardly ever broke through any of its checks without pure luck scald burns, and heavily relied on its teammates to break them, but it was still S rank. Not to mention the only real versatility that's offered with keldeo is CM or choiced (endeavour but meh).

 

[yoloburn]

There's no way Thundy has more utility than Lando-T. Landorus-T is literally the best revenge killer in OU, no comparison. Not the most powerful, but simply the most useful for most situations with great coverage. It's also one of the most useful pivots, u-turner, rocks setter, and defensive glue in the tier.

I really fail to see how Lando-T is not S-rank. This is one of those things that I've stopped arguing because there's no point

 

[AM]

Lando-t is more versatile than u give it credit for lol. Lets say i have a gliscor, toxic/acro/taunt/roost, defensive for mega hera and other stuff.
Seems like I have bulky ground covered, right? Wrong, this set totally loses to the SubSD set, which is used to set up on mew and gliscor (and it does, very very easily). Unless chesnaught is carrying seed bomb, thats just set up fodder too. And even then:
-1 0 Atk Chesnaught Seed Bomb vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 67-79 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
I didn't just specialize the HP evs for this specific scenario either, 56 hp is used to tank 2 LO iron heads from exca almost gauranteed.

Lets say i have a quaggy. Seems like i'm covered right? Wrong, the offensive RP+3 attacks set pretty much 2HKOs Quagsire with eq.
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Since this set carries knock off over the traditional SD, you don't have to worry about weakening latios or gengar either to beat with stone edge.
Just cuz u don't see sets other than defensive and scarf on the ladder, doesn't mean that no other viable sets exist.

Besides, keldeo was easy as hell to check and counter, that didn't stop it from being S rank. Keldeo is never going to really break stall efficiently on its own either, it was still S rank. Keldeo hardly ever broke through any of its checks without pure luck scald burns, and heavily relied on its teammates to break them, but it was still S rank. Not to mention the only real versatility that's offered with keldeo is CM or choiced (endeavour but meh).

These sets were examples there were obviously more sets I was just pointing out some general flaws and rather not write an essay on each set lol. Also Keldeo was debatable for a long time even in XY and many were convinced it was A+ even with its all successful traits so not exactly sure what the point of bringing this one up is. I can agree with versatility but to the point that it's a centralizing force in the metagame that it warrants a move to S rank I don't agree with.

 

[Celticpride]

Besides, keldeo was easy as hell to check and counter, that didn't stop it from being S rank. Keldeo is never going to really break stall efficiently on its own either, it was still S rank. Keldeo hardly ever broke through any of its checks without pure luck scald burns, and heavily relied on its teammates to break them, but it was still S rank. Not to mention the only real versatility that's offered with keldeo is CM or choiced (endeavour but meh).

Not every S-Rank Pokemon is directly comparable to even other S-Rank pokemon. Keldeo was never S-Rank because of it's versatility. I wasn't a fan of Keldeo in S to begin with, but using Keldeo's versatility comparative to Lando-T to get it into S really isn't a strong argument.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Lando-T should stay A+. I think a lot of people are confusing viability between usage when they bring up how it's S rank. Lando-T is annoying, but it's not some sort of Pokemon that you can just throw on every team and be successful with it.

Actually, it kinda is, lol. Just look at how many OU teams in the Team Showcase utilize Landorus-T on the first page alone:

Without a Fight - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
Imagine - Normal Gem Landorus-T
The Power of Bulky Offense - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
The Persistent Monkey - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
Avante Palestra - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
New Projects - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
The Machine - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
Ben Gay x McMienshao - Choice Scarf Landorus-T
Summer 2014 Anti-Metagame - Defensive Landorus-T
*~{D.M.F.P}~* - Choice Scarf Landorus-T

Then if you look at the Smogon Tour usage stats (which actually mean something, unlike ladder stats), Landorus-T was used a little over 36% of the time and is pretty much neck and neck with Latios for the title of the most used Pokemon during the tour (Latios just happened to be another very common Pokemon in the Team Showcase OU teams).

I'm not really sure whether or not I'd support Landorus-T for S Rank or not at the moment, but I'd say that it's definitely the kind of Pokemon you can just toss onto a team and expect it to be successful (especially the very popular Choice Scarf set), and the popularity it sees among good players demonstrates this.

 

[Srn]

Not every S-Rank Pokemon is directly comparable to even other S-Rank pokemon. Keldeo was never S-Rank because of it's versatility. I wasn't a fan of Keldeo in S to begin with, but using Keldeo's versatility comparative to Lando-T to get it into S really isn't a strong argument.

That's not the argument i'm trying to make, i'm comparing keldeo's inability to break through its own counters with different sets to lando-t's to get it into S rank. Its obvious that keldeo wasn't S rank b/c of versatility, and its also obvious that lando-t is way more versatile than keldeo, but that's not the point.

These sets were examples there were obviously more sets I was just pointing out some general flaws and rather not write an essay on each set lol. Also Keldeo was debatable for a long time even in XY and many were convinced it was A+ even with its all successful traits so not exactly sure what the point of bringing this one up is. I can agree with versatility but to the point that it's a centralizing force in the metagame that it warrants a move to S rank I don't agree with.

Well versatility alone won't get you S rank, if it did then there would be quite a few more pokemon up there.
What I think pushes Lando-t to S is its matchup not against stall, but against offense.
With intimidate, immunity to ground, and resistance to fighting, along with a mammoth 145 base attack and good bulk and good speed, this thing is simply a menace for offense to face. Rock Polish is easy to set up against it and STAB invested eq does a LOT of damage, especially if you decide to go earth plate. The scarf set is really frustrating for offense to play against wisely as it can switch into hits even with uninvested bulk, force plenty of switches, and u-turn to steal momentum away from offense, which is the most important thing that playstyle can use.
And then the defensive set is setting rocks and checking shit with ease.

Besides, you can't deny that lando-t is quite centralizing. There's no other reason why mega lopunny, mega metagross, conkeldurr, Lucario, mega medicham, mega tyranitar, and mega gallade would even consider running ice punch if this thing didn't exist. Just goes to show how important it is to hit this thing, even if that's practically the only thing you cover. It's just that good.

Seriously, the "correct" mindset when building is to try and have an answer to everything. Sure, lando-t gets worn down quickly, but its always better to struggle with many things than to cover one and be 6-0'd by another. And that's exactly what lando-t does. It covers so much shit at full health, can actually hit back, and can set rocks that its difficult to not add it to your balanced team, or pretty much any bulky team. Give me another mon that even comes close to covering dnite, garchomp, mega aerodactyl, mega beedrill, mega char-x, mega heracross, mega metagross, mega pinsir, mega tyranitar, excadrill, talonflame, hawlucha, diggersby, klefki, and normal tyranitar all in ONE fucking slot.
It IS quite easy to toss onto a team and expect success.
EDIT: somewhat ninja'd by Agent Gibbs , proved my point nicely.

 

[pwnémon]

That's not the argument i'm trying to make, i'm comparing keldeo's inability to break through its own counters with different sets to lando-t's to get it into S rank. Its obvious that keldeo wasn't S rank b/c of versatility, and its also obvious that lando-t is way more versatile than keldeo, but that's not the point.



Well versatility alone won't get you S rank, if it did then there would be quite a few more pokemon up there.
What I think pushes Lando-t to S is its matchup not against stall, but against offense.
With intimidate, immunity to ground, and resistance to fighting, along with a mammoth 145 base attack and good bulk and good speed, this thing is simply a menace for offense to face. Rock Polish is easy to set up against it and STAB invested eq does a LOT of damage, especially if you decide to go earth plate. The scarf set is really frustrating for offense to play against wisely as it can switch into hits even with uninvested bulk, force plenty of switches, and u-turn to steal momentum away from offense, which is the most important thing that playstyle can use.
And then the defensive set is setting rocks and checking shit with ease.

Besides, you can't deny that lando-t is quite centralizing. There's no other reason why mega lopunny, mega metagross, conkeldurr, Lucario, mega medicham, mega tyranitar, and mega gallade would even consider running ice punch if this thing didn't exist. Just goes to show how important it is to hit this thing, even if that's practically the only thing you cover. It's just that good.

Seriously, the "correct" mindset when building is to try and have an answer to everything. Sure, lando-t gets worn down quickly, but its always better to struggle with many things than to cover one and be 6-0'd by another. And that's exactly what lando-t does. It covers so much shit at full health, can actually hit back, and can set rocks that its difficult to not add it to your balanced team, or pretty much any bulky team. Give me another mon that even comes close to covering dnite, garchomp, mega aerodactyl, mega beedrill, mega char-x, mega heracross, mega metagross, mega pinsir, mega tyranitar, excadrill, talonflame, hawlucha, diggersby, klefki, and normal tyranitar all in ONE fucking slot.
It IS quite easy to toss onto a team and expect success.
EDIT: somewhat ninja'd by Agent Gibbs , proved my point nicely.

Gliscor and hippowdon both cover most of the afformated and have reliable recovery and similarly useful abilities allowing them to come in the Pokemon multiple times check bisharp and are capable of running spdef sets to beat stuff like gengar, latios and lando-i whilst still checking Mons like bisharp and garchomp. Bulky waters like suicine and slowbro(except for bugs and ttar) also do an amirable job and can heal back up and potentially sweep with calm mind.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

http://strawpoll.me/3135487 (Lando T rank poll)

Honestly im gonna agree with putting Lando T to S rank. It basically works on every playstyle except Stall, and thats saying alot. Its great ability brings his Defensive stat to 130 iirc, which is above average. It also has many sets, some that are underrated and some with popular use, like the SR set and the Scarf set. Seriously, this guy works on Cores,teams,etc. so well. Id probably say its the glue of many teams, to say that much. It cripples a decent amount of Offensive sweepers like MZard X with its amazing ability Intimidate. It also has a staggering 145 base Attack, and it hits p hard on many pokemon. It lost its some threats it had in XY OU, but it did gain some in ORAS. Lets not forget how many things it checks/counters with its Scarf set.

Hide

Greninja
Lando T
Thundy I (unless rare Sub)
Non Scarfed Lati@s
Chansey
Heatran
Celebi
MMetagross (non Agility set)
SpDef Jirachi (probably needs some prior damage but w/e)
MSceptile
Albacore (insert lenny face)

theres much more but thats all i can think of. Basically its a threat to many teams, and its a glue to many teams. It stops many pokemon and checks many pokemon. It runs viable sets, including the underrated Double Dance. Honestly i can see this thing deserving for S rank.

 

[Wargreymon]

Got 1500 using a Beedrill team, it's A+ in my opinion.

Beedrill has far too many flaws to be anywhere near that rank. At the very height of its power Beedrill could possibly be considered A-, but even that's pushing it. Stealth Rock alone stops any true potential Beedrill has because a pokemon that is designed for U-turning and switching out cannot afford to take 25% damage every time it comes back in. Then there's the issue of Beedrill's pitiful defence which means priority moves severely hampers its presence on the field. Banded Azumarill's aqua jet can OHKO without rocks, Bisharp's sucker punch (even without LO) is a guaranteed OHKO, Diggersby's LO quick attack is a guaranteed OHKO after rocks, etc. More problems arise when you look at Beedrill's typing offensively, and how many pokemon (including the most common pokemon in OU) wall it completely. Speed also sucks pre mega. There's just no way Beedrill is anywhere near A+ material. That being said though, Beedrill is definitely a very viable choice and can dissect teams with the right support.

 

[Puralux]

I hope that the people who plays in the ladder will understand that Mega Beedrill is not strong as they think. Many thinks that he is great in the ou metagame , but is not. Switching is the last thing that Mega Beedrill should do with hazards everywhere. While the opponent can prepare to his almost sure protect , he is really weak to general attacks and has a bad typing, without an immunity to earthquake. Mega Beedrill fears a lot Jolly Scarfed Lando-T , which in my opinion will increase in usage also owing to Mega Sceptile , but is weak also to sashed users like Stealth Rock Garchomp and many priority users. The other thing that makes Mega Beedrill not so good is that has poor coverage , even if with STAB.

 

[The Big Aristotle]

Don't really agree with Azumarill going to A. The metagame speeding up doesn't really matter because Azumarill was getting outsped 24/7 las gen anyway. It's true that things are hitting harder, but Azumarill can pretty much check all of the new fast megas minus maybe Beedrill and Metagross. AV Azumarill can check Sceptile without Leaf Storm, and kinda destroys Mega Sableye even when burned. The main disadvantages Azumarill faces this gen imo are Mega Slowbro and GS Greninja. Troublesome things, but I don't think it's quite enough to push it down a rank as Azumarill still checks a lot of dangerous stuff and doesn't really need support. Azumarill's priority is also more useful than ever. Keel Azumarill at A+ imo.

Can't believe I forgot to mention Greninja. AV Azumarill went from being a reliable answer to one of OU's best Pokemon...to being absolutely destroyed by it. Given that Gunk Shot is now pretty much mandatory on Greninja, I'd say that's a huge demerit to Azu.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Having a lot of viable moves IS 4MSS, for example Greninja has horrible 4MSS cause it has such a variety of moves that can be used to take out specific threats. Most pokemon do not have 4MSS due to lack of movepool, for example Lando T, Diancie, and others

Again, having a lot of viable moves is not 4MSS. When a Pokemon has two or three moves that let it blow up 95% of the meta, and then has to choose which of a small handful of Pokemon can check it in the last two or three slots, it's not hard to make an effective set and build around that set, e.g. being sure to have a heatran check if you're not using EQ on Latios.

Also you say Psyshock and Psychic are redundant but they are easily one of its most important moves. It gives some decent coverage and STAB is helpful. It also takes on Faries well, as you stated at the end of your post.

Yeah but you don't run BOTH.

HP fire is mandatory in most cases to stop Scizor/Bisharp cause they are the bane to Latios and taking them out is neccesary.

HP Fire means 30 spe IV, it's not always desirable.

Defog is mandatory on Latios, im not wasting a moveslot for a pokemon that does a worse job at hazard control than Latios.

Tentacruel checks a bunch of stuff and can spin against the #1 spinblocker (Sableye.)

 

[FieryTyrant]

Edit: To clarify, this is not intended to change any Smogon council members' mind, I apologize if that is what was thought. This is simply to see where everybody stands and to spark discussion about these Pokemon accordingly, since the last few pages have been lackluster to say the least.

I've created polls for five Pokemon that are commonly brought up for discussion.
This should make discussion easier and more manageable.

Mega Charizard X -
S Rank
Y: 29
N: 16

Mega Metagross -
S Rank
Y: 14
N: 21

Mega Gallade -
S Rank
Y: 7
N: 21

Keldeo -
Drop to A+
Y: 19
N: 2

Azumarill -
Drop to A+
Y: 11
N: 14

I stopped the polls early because like 35 people already voted, so I see no reason to carry on
Again, this is in no way trying to be persuasive, but if you disagree with the majority's opinion, state why you disagree and properly back up you evidence.

Smogon is not a democracy, and does not weigh all opinions as being equal.

Okay, you're missing the point. This is to showcase the majority's opinion to help the ranking become easier because the last few pages have been a shitstorm. It's to see what the majority agrees on, there wouldn't even be a discussion if our opinions didn't matter, this whole thread would be pointless, you realize that?

The polls are absolutely pointless. The quantity of an opinion does not matter. What matters is the quality of the reasoning behind the nomination. The discussion is to attempt to convince a small council of 5 members that something deserves to move up, not to convince every poster that something needs to move up like in some sort of election. There have been plenty of changes that were made despite it seeming like the majority of people posting here were against it. The council has not and will not rank something simply because a bunch of people says it should. Something will only change in rank if good arguments are made to move it.

As I stated before, have you SEEN the last few pages? This is not to convince anybody anything, this is to see where we are as a community. The majority does not matter, you're right. But when people see these polls it is likely going to start discussion accordingly so we can actually get somewhere.

Making polls takes away the point of this thread: discussion. In addition, these types of polls don't accurately reflect the consensus of players. They don't take experience and other intangible factors into account.

That's not my intention, I'm trying to spark discussion from those who disagree with the majority so we can see evidence from both sides to help the council come to a conclusion.

Smogon is not a democracy.

Try reading the actual post, not once did I say this was to change the council's minds, this is to spark discussion from those who have differing opinions so the council has every opinion to work with.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

I've created polls for five Pokemon that are commonly brought up for discussion.
This should make ranking easier for most if not all of them.

Mega Charizard X - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188095x42BB5F92-7

Mega Metagross - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188099x054A699f-7

Mega Gallade - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188102x5C61E631-7

Keldeo - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188103xDb4973be-7

Azumarill - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188104x3D42C690-7

Smogon is not a democracy, and does not weigh all opinions as being equal.

 

[Jaroda]

So I want to nominate Dragalge for C+/B-

I've been having a lot of fun testing and running this guy. Thanks to Adaptability he offers the strongest special based Poison AND Dragon moves in the tier and is the only Dragon without a Fairy weakness (besides Char X). In fact, he is sort of a Fairy slayer, as it is very easy to run enough speed to outrun standard Clefable and Azumarill. You could blow shit up with a simple Specs set, or can go for a combination of bulk and power, as his special bulk and typing are fantastic. So he isn't a one trick sea pony. It also has access to Scald which is always a safe use for any Steel type switching in. So its typing and power are very unique and niche and is a really great tool for fighting many Fairy types. It struggles against heavy offensive teams from its speed, has lackluster physical defense if you don't get a burn, but it thrives on bulky offense and semi-stall teams. It pairs naturally with Skarmory and does well with hazards, threatening switchins with powerful STABs or can use Dragon Tail to shuffle more. It's fun to use and the strong Poison moves are very handy to have.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

I've created polls for five Pokemon that are commonly brought up for discussion.
This should make ranking easier for most if not all of them.

Mega Charizard X - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188095x42BB5F92-7

Mega Metagross - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188099x054A699f-7

Mega Gallade - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188102x5C61E631-7

Keldeo - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188103xDb4973be-7

Azumarill - http://www.poll-maker.com/poll188104x3D42C690-7

Let's count the final results in approximately three hours, 6:00pm Central time.



Okay, you're missing the point. This is to showcase the majority's opinion to help the ranking become easier because the last few pages have been a shitstorm. It's to see what the majority agrees on, there wouldn't even be a discussion if our opinions didn't matter, this whole thread would be pointless, you realize that?

The polls are absolutely pointless. The quantity of an opinion does not matter. What matters is the quality of the reasoning behind the nomination. The discussion is to attempt to convince a small council of 5 members that something deserves to move up, not to convince every poster that something needs to move up like in some sort of election. There have been plenty of changes that were made despite it seeming like the majority of people posting here were against it. The council has not and will not rank something simply because a bunch of people says it should. Something will only change in rank if good arguments are made to move it.

As I stated before, have you SEEN the last few pages? This is not to convince anybody anything, this is to see where we are as a community. The majority does not matter, you're right. But when people see these polls it is likely going to start discussion accordingly so we can actually get somewhere.

Where WE are is irrelevant. What's relevant is where the council is. If it seems like a bunch of us want a change, arguments still have to be made to get that change to occur. If no one argues for a change, then even if a 1000 people want a change it won't happen. No matter how many people agree with you, if you have an argument for a change that hasn't been brought up you should argue it. No matter how many people disagree with you, if you make a good argument they still need to come up with a counter argument. You aren't sparking discussion. If anything, this gives people an excuse to utilize mob mentality as a justification for a change and thus kills discussion.