Uh Diancie, in regards to regular Diancie, does not have any real offensive presence to take advantage of what so ever. Its best trait comes from a defensive stand-point and personally for me the only legitimate reason to use it these days would be on TR teams as a consistent Rock and TR setter. The fact that its best aspect is in the form of Trick Room with minor aspects of checking stuff like Talonflame is why it's at the rank it's at now. We have plenty of viable bulky rock setters in the tier and even Mega Diancie nonetheless who granted won't be the one setting rocks but it's just so much more useful than its base form anyways. Diancie is slow as hell with the illusion of bulk masked behind high base defenses but low HP to compensate for this and its "offensive power" is only in the form of stuff it already checks consistently in the first place. The fact that M-Gross is so dominant in the tier along with Steel types in general just being overall a great type to have on any team these days is enough for me to see Diancie stay in its position of C- rank.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Magic Bounce means that M-Sableye can't get Burned or get hit with Toxic outside of Toxic Spikes or Scald.
Also has Recover.
Magic bounce does actually allow to you take hits better, as being immune to direct burn/poison saves sableye some passive damage each turn.
I think Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye should stay A+.
Why I think Mega Lopunny should stay where it is:
- relies too much on prediction (even with Scrappy!)
- severe case of 4MSS
- pretty bad against stall and balanced because its 136 attack is dissapointing and many Pokemon seen on those playstyles carry Protect.
- just not as good as the S-rank mons in general
- promotes porn into the Pokemon fandom
Mega Sableye: it's insanely weak to probably the most dangerous stallbreaker in existence, Mega Gardy. In addition, even when fully invested, it doesn't have the physical defense to tank the most powerful physical attacks, such as Metagross' Meteor Mash, all thanks to its shit base 50 HP.
Why I think Mega Lopunny should stay where it is:
- relies too much on prediction (even with Scrappy!)
- severe case of 4MSS
- pretty bad against stall and balanced because its 136 attack is dissapointing and many Pokemon seen on those playstyles carry Protect.
- just not as good as the S-rank mons in general
Mega Sableye: it's insanely weak to probably the most dangerous stallbreaker in existence, Mega Gardy. In addition, even when fully invested, it doesn't have the physical defense to tank the most powerful physical attacks, such as Metagross' Meteor Mash, all thanks to its shit base 50 HP.
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I agree with the rise of Lopunny, Sableye and Celebi. They are all good mon and you guys already explained why, so I won't repeat the same things you have already done. However, I disagree on putting Mega Diancie in A+ rank, it's a really solid mon ofc, but I think that it has some flaws that shouldn't belong to an A+ rank. Firstly, it has some problem to mega evolve since in its first turn Mega Diancie has poor defenses and it's slow as well, therefore many people tend to run Protect to avoid being killed immediately but that wastes a slot of course and that's really man since you probably won't run neither CM or Rock Polish. The second biggest flaws is how common priority moves are nowadays and how mich Diancie struggles at it, both Metagross and Scizor are very common and Bullet Punch lets them to revenge-kill Diancie quite easily, even Azumarill's Aqua Jet 2HKOs Diancie with ease. It also faces competition as a mega as Metagross, Lopunny, Altaria and Sableye are most consistent than it and that is not good either. Again, I'm not saying that it isn't a bad mon, but I can't really see it in the same rank with mons like Heatran, Keldeo, Bisharp, Clefable and Gengar which are, in my opinion, much more consistent and solid as a pokèmon.
Mega Sableye is not supposed to beat everything. Furthermore, Mega Gardevoir can be handled with Jirachi, who has a distinct advantage in being one of the few Pokemon who can handle M-Gardevoir. Also, if you are switching M-Sableye into Megagross, then you are probably doing it wrong. Your points on M-Lopunny are arguable, but no Pokemon is perfect, and neither is M-Sableye. While I am indifferent on whether or not either M-Lopunny or M-Sableye should rise, I think you are not giving them enough due credit. I could be wrong though, as I have little experience with M-Lopunny, and zero experience with M-Sableye.
Oh dear lord am I sick of seeing this after the Greninja suspect thread...
Please stop applying 4MSS to every single thing that has more than four viable moves. 4MSS only applies to Pokémon who need more than four moves to be effective. For instance, Lucario has 4MSS because it wants E-speed, Swords Dance and all three of CC, Iron Tail and Crunch. By sacrificing one of those it either loses coverage, loses power or loses priority.
Lopunny doesn't have 4MSS because it only requires two of it's moves. Return and HJK (or replace HJK with Drain Punch on certain sets even) are the only two moves it absolutely requires. One of it's biggest selling points is this -- that it's last two slots are entirely customizable and it doesn't really require any of them to be effective. Intelligently choose any of the two and it'll do work.
Yeah it'd be nice to run HJK, Return, Sub, PuP, Fake Out, Ice Punch all on one set but that's not what's required. By your reasoning every single Pokémon has 4MSS because they all have more than four viable moves.
Add "4MSS" to the list of phrases thrown around without reference to their actual meaning alongside "check" and "counter" - it really has been used in all sorts of ways especially in the suspect thread. I think that dictionary article hasn't been updated since 4th gen IIRC, maybe it could do with a revision and a sticky?
But yeah. Mlopunny is exactly the kind of pokemon that is the OPPOSITE of 4MSS. As Kurona said, it'd be a perfectly good pokemon with just two moves, the rest of them are the cherries on the proverbial sundae. Lucario, the Eevelutions, or MVenusaur (for example) cannot say the same.
MLopunny is seriously good though. I don't know if its a meta-defining as the other S threats - okay, it really isn't, if that's a qualification for S. But definitely an A+ threat all the same.
But yeah. Mlopunny is exactly the kind of pokemon that is the OPPOSITE of 4MSS. As Kurona said, it'd be a perfectly good pokemon with just two moves, the rest of them are the cherries on the proverbial sundae. Lucario, the Eevelutions, or MVenusaur (for example) cannot say the same.
MLopunny is seriously good though. I don't know if its a meta-defining as the other S threats - okay, it really isn't, if that's a qualification for S. But definitely an A+ threat all the same.
While I think the problems you mentioned are very valid, that's pretty much where it ends.
I think what pushes mega diancie to A+ are its unique STABs, along with its access to crucial coverage like earth power and psyshock.
Basically, its STABs, rock and fairy, make it EXTREMELY difficult to built around.
Most answers to fairies, such as cobalion, heatran, and talonflame, all get destroyed by mega diancie; you practically NEED a CB/AV azu or scizor to be save from this guy, and moonblast is still easily 2hko'ing non AV azu and scizor can't switch in b/c mega diancie like to run hp fire.
This is what bothers me the most; i can dedicate a slot of my team to checking fairies but i still need to stuff in another way to have a chance against mega diancie because 90% of my answers to fairies all get decimated by diancie, a fairy u_u
Then you have its god-like ability, magic bounce, which means it doesn't have to fear random stupid thunder waves or will-o-wisps or taunts or whirlwinds, meaning it can easily set up on skarm, mew, non eq gliscor, sdef tran, mandibuzz, etc.
Its natural typing makes it a pretty decent birdspam and charizard check, outspeeding mega pinsir and both zard forms, and resisting talonflame's stabs, while ohkoing everything mentioned with rock STAB (bar bulky zard-x which is dying after rocks anyway)
The competition argument is kinda dumb because although the megas you mentioned are a little more consistent, they fulfill completely different roles (none of them come close to checking talonflame for example); mega diancie is unique and nothing comes close to offering it competition; its a fairy that beats and outspeeds fires with magic bounce and 110 base speed. There's simply nothing like it.
I can agree that its not consistent and its a little difficult to use, but its natural typing, ability, and STABs are so devastating and unique that it should be A+
As far as Mega Lopunny goes, I'm simply going to reiterate what I've already stated, seeing as my opinion on the matter hasn't changed.
I'm partial on moving it to S. Yes, it can do so many things, I believe we can all agree with this, however, it has a hard time doing them all.
Now, if we don't mind inflating S (which personally I do), then I can see mLop going to S. However, it requires more support than many seem to think. Namely against teams that aren't offense.
It's a GREAT pokemon, but I wouldn't go as far as putting it on par with the likes of Mega Metagross, and inevitably Mega Sableye.
I'm partial on moving it to S. Yes, it can do so many things, I believe we can all agree with this, however, it has a hard time doing them all.
Now, if we don't mind inflating S (which personally I do), then I can see mLop going to S. However, it requires more support than many seem to think. Namely against teams that aren't offense.
It's a GREAT pokemon, but I wouldn't go as far as putting it on par with the likes of Mega Metagross, and inevitably Mega Sableye.
So basically M-Sableye depends on its teammate to get past Mega Gardy?
Where are you going with this question? Name me a Pokemon that doesn't need team support and I will consider this valid, because it looks like you are just bringing random crap to bag on Mega Sableye.
Let's look at your argument from the BW2 perspective, to which I know you have played before. Tornadus-Therian in BW2 required Politoed to get rain up for its 100% accurate Hurricane. Yet, it was banned from OU. Excadrill required Tyranitar or Hippowdon to get sandstorm up to wreck opposing offensive teams. Yet, that was also banned from OU. Now, let's look at the XY an ORAS perspective. You should take note that all of the current S-Rank Pokemon, such as Mega Metagross, Greninja, Thundurus, Latios, and Landorus-T, regardless of whether or not they should be S Rank, all require some extent of support. Zard-X and Keldeo were S Rank in XY, yet they needed some form of support for their caveats. How is Mega Sableye any different from these Pokemon? Is really needing team support for a couple of flaws really that bad? Heck, Aegislash needed team support too. How is needing team support keeping a Pokemon from going to S Rank?
Landorus-T. It really doesn't need any support, because it IS support in itself. It's S-rank too.
Torn-T could do work even outside rain if the situation really called for it, especially when battling sand or the rare hail. Even if its team lost the weather war, that doesn't mean it was completely useless; it could still KO your Tyranitar with Superpower, your Breloom still wasn't safe despite Hurricane becoming Hurrimiss, and it was still extremely annoying to take out, due to U-turn + Regenerator. I guess you're right about Exca, but 88 base speed, while pretty bad for the fast-paced BW meta, was still enough to outspeed and badly damage Politoed, especially with the help of LO, which could mean the loss of the weather war and a good chance to sweep for Exca.
Mega Sableye is different in the sense that it has absolutely no way of getting past Mega Gardy unless it's at like +4 or something (too lazy to do the calcs). Torn-T and Exca could somewhat work around their weaknesses.
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Landorus-T needs support in handling Bisharp, Keldeo, Mamoswine, etc. To say it needs no support is like saying Giratina would need no support in OU, which would need support to handle its weaknesses in Dark, Fairy, Dragon, Ghost, and Ice type attacks.
Bisharp is easily OHKOed by Earthquake and Lando-T is usually the one who can switch into its Sucker Punch (watch out for the Defiant boost), especially if running physically defensive. I guess you're right about LO Mamo, since it's a huge pain in the ass for Lando with Ice Shard and Freeze-Dry. However Mamo is not as common as it was in XY, as the ORAS metagame was truly unkind to it. Keldeo can be played around, considering most good teams carry a check to it without even preparing for it. Scarf Keldeo is annoying, but Specs and Sub are more popular and can be brought into Earthquake's KO range (if you run scarf).
if your not the defensive variant a plus 2 sucker will kill with very litter prior damage
+1 252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 195-231 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 162-192 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
lmao nice switch in m8
You even ever tried to switch Lando-T into Bisharp!? Cause Bisharp really loves the free defiant boost and sucker punches you easily in the face.
Honestly I think we're kinda going off-topic lol
but Lando-T usually catches it using Sucker Punch and forces it out.
ALSO LOL ME FORGETTING ABOUT DEFIANT. i guess i'm still asleep after the new year crap.
BUT ANYWAY. I'm going to have to agree with Gallade dropping to A. It's clearly not as good as Mega Gardy as a stallbreaker, due to it being unable to deal with Mega Sableye and Slowbro. While slightly better against offense as it outspeeds Keldeo and HP Fire Lati@s, I still think it's not A+
ok, so the first thing that comes to mind that is a solid counter to torn-t is zapdos. how does torn get past zapdos? should they havw not banned it because he has a counter? no. every mon has a counter or a hard check or whatever.
but with sableye, theres just so many pros and they heavily outweigh the negatives. yeah, gard is a check. but you have five other teamslots to help you. every mon does.
When I hear "severe case of 4MSS," I'm thinking that describes something like Mega Banette, which literally can't function with only four moves (needs Protect to safely activate Prankster, needs DBond because like why bother if you don't use that, needs Knock Off to not be Taunt bait and also it's the best move, leaving one moveslot for Taunt, Sub, Wisp, another attack [esp. Sucker Punch,] Disable, etc.)
What Lopunny has is definitely not 4MSS; it has flawless neutral coverage (fuck off Shedinja) in TWO moves, both of which are >100 BP STABs, the only other attack it'd ever bother using is Ice Punch. This also alleviates the "relies too much on prediction" thing; it really only has two attacks it ever has to use (again, which nothing resists,) and the problem is further alleviated with its 405 speed (e.g. it doesn't matter if you can get Lati@s in on a resisted HJK because it won't be able to outspeed or survive the following Return unless it's scarfed.) It's significantly less prediction heavy than, well, any scarfer of course, but at the very least it doesn't need as much prediction as slower Pokemon (e.g. Clefable needs to bop Excadrill with Fire Blast on the switch,) Pokemon with STABs that have immunities (Electrics, Grounds, Psychics, Fires, Poisons, etc.) and so on. Also there's the Baton Pass sets, especially SubPass, which require basically no prediction and takes advantage out of nearly all its checks.
Against bulkier/stall teams, SubPUP puts in work, e.g. Alomomola is usually a counter, but then it becomes set-up bait cause its Scald can't break Lopunny's subs. Bulky offense staples like Celebi and Mega Altaria take a ton of damage from +1 Return, and Heatran/Ferrothorn/Chansey trying to cheese you with Protect fare even worse.
Of course, it can't run SubPass and SubPUP at the same time, but if it could, it would be outrageously overpowered as opposed to an S-rank candidate. The fact that it can run so many sets, and be extremely effective with any of them, is really just a testament to how good it is, not that a Lopunny user would be constantly thinking "gee I really should have been running Healing Wish that match."
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You are missing the point. The idea is that Landorus-T needs support to handle these threats, since it has weaknesses, and thus not supposed to handle everything. On Bisharp, Landorus-T cannot switch into it at all due to Defiant, which is why I mentioned it. You say these problems can be handled, but through team support, which you said Landorus-T does not need.
Excadrill had no way of getting past Skarmory, who could easily phaze it out. Tornadus-T was broken due to Regenerator + 100% accurate Hurricane under rain, and while it could function outside of rain, it was nowhere near as difficult to handle without rain. Again, you are missing the point, as they needed support to be as good as they were.
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Why are we talking about whether a pokemon needs support or not?Every mon needs support as even gods like choice specs kyogre has checks and counters and u absoluetely have to remove his checks/counters for him to sweep.And that's not talking about hazards,priorty weak shit like breloom,stall weak stuff like chomp and stuff.
EVERY THING NEEDS SUPPORT SO STOP ARGUING THAT MEGA EYE NEEDS SUPPORT SO IT SHOULDN'T BE S
EVERY THING NEEDS SUPPORT SO STOP ARGUING THAT MEGA EYE NEEDS SUPPORT SO IT SHOULDN'T BE S
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