Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Prinz]

While I think the problems you mentioned are very valid, that's pretty much where it ends.
I think what pushes mega diancie to A+ are its unique STABs, along with its access to crucial coverage like earth power and psyshock.
Basically, its STABs, rock and fairy, make it EXTREMELY difficult to built around.
Most answers to fairies, such as cobalion, heatran, and talonflame, all get destroyed by mega diancie; you practically NEED a CB/AV azu or scizor to be save from this guy, and moonblast is still easily 2hko'ing non AV azu and scizor can't switch in b/c mega diancie like to run hp fire.
This is what bothers me the most; i can dedicate a slot of my team to checking fairies but i still need to stuff in another way to have a chance against mega diancie because 90% of my answers to fairies all get decimated by diancie, a fairy u_u
Then you have its god-like ability, magic bounce, which means it doesn't have to fear random stupid thunder waves or will-o-wisps or taunts or whirlwinds, meaning it can easily set up on skarm, mew, non eq gliscor, sdef tran, mandibuzz, etc.
Its natural typing makes it a pretty decent birdspam and charizard check, outspeeding mega pinsir and both zard forms, and resisting talonflame's stabs, while ohkoing everything mentioned with rock STAB (bar bulky zard-x which is dying after rocks anyway)
The competition argument is kinda dumb because although the megas you mentioned are a little more consistent, they fulfill completely different roles (none of them come close to checking talonflame for example); mega diancie is unique and nothing comes close to offering it competition; its a fairy that beats and outspeeds fires with magic bounce and 110 base speed. There's simply nothing like it.

I can agree that its not consistent and its a little difficult to use, but its natural typing, ability, and STABs are so devastating and unique that it should be A+

Actually few people run HP Fire on Diancie cus Earth Power is definitely better as it allows to get past of Heatran, Excadrill and Magnezone to make some examples. Hp Fire lets you beat Scizor is true, but EP is just more consistent against all the other Steel-type mons. Also, as I already said before Diancie has a very cool moverpool but it has to choice which moves to run. Moonblast and Diamond Storm are mandatory ofc, then you have to choice which moves to run beetween Protect, HP Fire, Earth Power, Rock Polish and Calm Mind. Obviously it can't run all these moves and it will be stopped by something, but that's for any mon I guess, and STABs + Earth Power are usually the standard offensive moves anyways. I would also to say that even if people (and myself included) usually prefers running Rock Polish or Calm Mind in the 4th, Protect shouldn't be understimated as an option on Diancie. You seem to have ignore the issue that Diancie has to mega-evolve but that is a really one imo. 50 / 110 / 110 defenses are bad for a tier where sweepers usually have 150+ attacks, also Diancie is very slow before mega-evolving and therefore even easier to kill. If you run Protect you avoid this, but ofc you are losing an important move so you better try to find a safe way to mega-evolve Diancie, but that's not easy as some people think. Also, it's true that Diancie has some features that some megas haven't, but hey Metagross, Lopunny, Sableye and even Altaria and Gallade to some extend are just better overall, so that's a point that doesn't favour Diancie either. However, what you said it's true and I can see why you and other people would see rising Diancie to A+ rank, and I agree on some points myself, I just wanna see what some other people think about that topic.

Happy New Year everyone, btw.

 

[AM]

Now, if we don't mind inflating S (which personally I do), then I can see mLop going to S.

I mentioned this to the ranking team in regards to what I wanted to see rise and drop and this is going to bring me to my next point cause TRC was worried about inflation however considering the current suspect and in general how the meta is changing I'm comfortable with this ranking right here. I'll post my quote and then elaborate a bit more.

Latios: S > A+

Latios for future A+ rank: I read this post today and obviously this is a meta with Greninja still in it so it doesn't really apply currently but I think Latios' time in S rank needs some discussion. Teams are just becoming more prepared for it through the use of Scarftar, M-Gross, fast paced offense, extremely heavy stall, and so forth. Latios has a lot of versatility there is no arguing this but the question I have is it still really the defining meta-game force it once was? People know what it packs, they're aware of the lures, aware of how to play around Latios enough that gets it to the point where it's in the danger zone. It's clearly obvious one would prepare for Latios in general but I never find myself preparing for Latios on a higher caliber of say Talonflame or Mega Gardevoir.

In regards to the post for those who aren't aware it's one by Gary2346 elaborating on the problems of Latios which includes but not limited to the increase of Bisharp, Clefable, Heatran, Mega Metagross, and so forth. Where I'm personally coming from is that you can't just put this on a team like you were able to. You guys can go ahead and take a look at the post if you want to give you an idea since it's a good read and sums it up really well, better than I would've at least. Although Latios is still a threat I simply don't believe it has the metagame defining presence to call itself top tier when each archetype is building around cores that naturally mitigate its Latios weakness. I find it no better than a majority of the A+ ranked mons and although it's one of the better A+ ranked mons, I find it to be one of the poorest S rank mons in our current metagame. So if inflation is an issue, which it was and always will be when it was discussed for what occupies higher sub-ranks, this drop needs to happen. I'll just put one other that I mentioned cause stuff like M-Sableye I mentioned as well but Jukain was able to sum it up perfectly.

Manaphy to A: I understand the initial reasoning as to why it was kept in A- but after playing more of the meta I really am inclined to think this needs to happen. As much as you can say that other stall-breakers exist that are effective, they're not on the level of Manaphy. Manaphy breaks through stall just by power alone and the process of doing so is extremely basic. This is on top of the fact that Scald, Rest, Rain Dance, Tail Glow pretty much beats stall flat out right on top of the variants that can be provided with the TG RD set to eliminate its so call defensive and balanced checks to it. Also its matchup falters against fast paced offense. Manaphy isn't fast by no means but it's not exactly slow either. Its effectiveness against stall translates over to Balanced Builds as well especially those that fall under its speed tier. It has the bulk to take a hit and the power to fight back. Sure you can wear it down with offense but unless you're lodging Life Orb Thunderbolt from Thundurus you're not OHKO'ing it on a regular basis, and you're getting hit hard. It's extremely hard for me to see Manaphy in A- considering how effective it is and the fact it's dictated the way stall has had to adapt by using Gothitelle and Specially Defensive Unaware Clefable to have a chance against this thing and even then these are checks based on the circumstances alone and still requires meticulous playing. Gothitelle just loses to pursuit support + U-Turn Manaphy which Pursuit M-Gross, T-Tar, Bisharp provides this easily and Clefable isn't exactly the hardest mon to check with just basic team building. Its matchup against fast paced offense is its only real hindrance which would keep it at A and no higher to me.

So to summarize some things I know off the bat.

Rank Changes:
Latios: A+
Manaphy: A
M-Sableye: S
M-Lopunny: S

Edit:
M-Gallade: A Forgot to put this one.

 

[Vert]

Mega Pidgeot -> B-

Alright, I might as well talk about this. Mega Pidgeot is a phenomenal momentum grabber keeping offensive pressure throughout the match. The comparison of Tornadus-T to Mega Pidgeot is something I don't really approve. The fact that Tornadus-T's job is inconsistent because it can't SPAM Hurricane as freely. There are times I switch even though I can KO something with Hurricane just because of its accuracy. Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane is at a low marginal difference between its fellow bird friend, but it also possesses something Tornadus-T can't dream of, No Guard. This makes Mega Pidgeot a more reliable Hurricane SPAM user. On rain teams, you should always use Tornadus-T, but Mega Pidgeot requires less support and can have more synergetic teammates. There are annoying things Mega Pidgeot has to deal with and Tornadus-T's utility makes it tough to consider Mega Pidgeot, but this is why I believe it shouldn't rise past B-.

Mega Pidgeot's speed tier is amazing, allowing it to gain a fast U-turn on a multitude of threats. Switch-ins like Rotom-W and Assault Vest Raikou get annihilated by Hurricane + Hyper Beam (this is a good filler actually, hits a lot of things if you can afford the recharge turn). Heat Wave is a great coverage move the forces out things like Ferrothorn allowing you to get free momentum. Its powerful STABs + Heat Wave makes Pidgeot possibly the best offensive momentum grabber in the game with Tornadus-T. It gives things that want free turns like Kyurem-B a way to wreck havoc.

Next, I want to talk about the support options it has. Earthquake Latios is a nice Tyranitar and Heatran lure. Dugtrio is nice. It wants Stealth Rock removed, however, which kind of limits its ability to use its average bulk to tank a neutral hit. I still have to say there is "oppurtunity cost", but all I know is that it shouldn't be C- right now. I would be fine with C+. Its excellent at its niche and can sweep underprepared teams with ease. It can move to B- if Greninja gets banned because it practically bird poops on HO and Balance teams, but at least C+ is a nice benchmark for now.

pls move

mega gallade from a+ to solid a
mega lopunny from a+ to s (it could move back down after the metagame has settled)
mega sableye from a+ to s
manaphy from a- to a
mega beedrill from b to b+
mega camerupt to c-/d it sux
mega absol to c
mega audino to blacklist + unranked
mega steelix to blacklist + unranked (
exploud to d (aegi got banned .....)

 

[Prinz]

I may agree on Pidgeot rising but don't ever use Hyper Beam please. There are too many setup sweepers in the tier that love to have a free turn like Metagross, Diancie, Bisharp, Azumarill, Altaria to make some examples, and you don't want to give a free turn to your opponent in general so please don't use Hyper Beam on any pokèmon for the love of god.

 

[Alfalfa]

I may agree on Pidgeot rising but don't ever use Hyper Beam please. There are too many setup sweepers in the tier that love to have a free turn like Metagross, Diancie, Bisharp, Azumarill, Altaria to make some examples, and you don't want to give a free turn to your opponent in general so please don't use Hyper Beam on any pokèmon for the love of god.

QC wants to put Hyper Beam in OO. The whole idea of Hyper Beam on Pidgeot came from discussion by QC: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pidgeot-qc-2-3-writing-up.3523220/

 

[Prinz]

I still think that Hyper Beam is an horrible move because it'll give your opponent a free turn where he can do whenever he wants to do. Roost, Defog, HP Grass, HP Ground aren't the greatest move of course (they are mainly filler) but I think they are all better than Hyper Beam because of its big flaw (it sucks that Mega Pidgeot has a so poor moverpool though, it would be so much bette with some other decent moves).

 

[Alfalfa]

I still think that Hyper Beam is an horrible move because it'll give your opponent a free turn where he can do whenever he wants to do. Roost, Defog, HP Grass, HP Ground aren't the greatest move of course (they are mainly filler) but I think they are all better than Hyper Beam because of its big flaw (it sucks that Mega Pidgeot has a so poor moverpool though, it would be so much bette with some other decent moves).

I have no opinion on whether or not Hyper Beam is a good move on Pidgeot, I simply wanted to state where the idea of Hyper Beam on Pidgeot came from.

 

[Jukain]

Hyper Beam Mega Pidgeot was something I first saw ben gay use and my first reaction was somewhat like 'lol, why is he using this garbage'. However, when I actually used it, I found that it was a pretty useful move. You have to build your team in such a way that you can afford to give setups to sweepers, which includes Thundurus-I TWave/sweeper checks like Azumarill, but if you build your team in such a manner that the recharge turn becomes acceptable then it can actually be an insanely useful move. It goes without saying but STAB Hyper Beam is really, really strong. I'll quote ben gay's post to make its purpose a little more clear:

can we slash hyper beam as filler for pidgeot :D? ik jukain will support me n_n. from my experience, there are times when pidgeot has to switch out because although it is fast, it is too weak to ko a threat before it kos back. some specific examples off the top of my head would be koing thundurus, landorus, megaman, mamoswine and 2hkoing rotom on the switch with cane+beam (hp grass fails to do this). i found beam to be a lot more clutch especially when paired with duggy. this should obviously be used if you can afford the recharge turn or for last-ditch damage and its a nice move to have if you need to eliminate certain threats.

I've found that Hyper Beam can be especially useful in end-game situations or against defensive teams where you have to have the extra power to kill a threat; in these situations, Hyper Beam can be really clutch. Whether you actually use it in battle completely depends on current battle situations and whether a free turn for the opponent would necessarily be a problem (they have a setup sweeper that you can no longer stop for whatever reason or you need Mega Pidgeot for other reasons). It's something you really have to use to appreciate the helpfulness of in certain situations, but it definitely is not a horrible move and Mega Pidgeot doesn't really have much in the way of good filler options.

Anyways, Mega Pidgeot could definitely rise to B-. One thing you may know if you've ever used or faced LO Tornadus-T is that a strong STAB Hurricane is completely awful to switch into. Nothing really wants to take it, but one of the biggest flaws of LO Tornadus-T outside of rain is the crappy accuracy of Hurricane, which can really bite. Mega Pidgeot kind of necessitates Dugtrio support which is I suppose a negative and means that you have to include an overspecific partner with Mega Pidgeot, but it's also not like Dugtrio is a bad Pokemon in this metagame, trapping Heatran and Tyranitar obviously as well as trapping and 2HKOing Megagross, KOing Mega Diancie after SR/revenging it with its sash intact, revenging Bisharp, checkmating non-Toxic Chansey and easily beating Toxic versions with Substitute on its moveset, outspeeding/trapping Scarfzone, trapping Raikou, rking Mega Manectric, trapping Excadrill if you can catch it in the right situation, trapping ~half Jirachi, trapping Tentacruel (which has gained some popularity), checking Zard X with its sash intact, and being able to ensure various weakened Pokemon are taken out of the game for sure. Another use I've found is with Toxic the ability to ensure that you can get off a Toxic on certain defensive Pokemon eg Slowbro and Landorus-T/Rotom-W (the latter two of which you don't trap but do lure) that you need the passive damage on to weaken for whatever reason.

That aside, Mega Pidgeot is fast and does really well against both offensive and balanced teams in the current metagame and even stall teams if supported well/you don't get zero luck in the long-term with Hurricane confusions (see this replay which is pretty much the only decent Pidgeot replay I could find and kinda shows how this applies though I got kinda lucky). B- is a good rank for it.

 

[Roylund]

What's keeping Mega Slowbro from reaching A+ or even S? That thing is a monstrous wall and can find many opportunities to set up thanks to its gargantuan Defense and reliable recovery. The only shortcoming it has is a weakness to Toxic and Special nukes. He also carries a very respectable 130 base Special ATtack. Thoughts?

 

[firehusky]

What's keeping Mega Slowbro from reaching A+ or even S? That thing is a monstrous wall and can find many opportunities to set up thanks to its gargantuan Defense and reliable recovery. The only shortcoming it has is a weakness to Toxic and Special nukes. He also carries a very respectable 130 base Special ATtack. Thoughts?

I guess the main reason is because on stall, mega sableye is much better imo.

 

[Albacore]

Mega-Slowbro is only A rank because it's slightly matchup-based, has to choose between being shut down by status if it runs Slack Off and being vulnerable for 2 turns if it runs Rest, has a handful of reliable answers, and the metagame has adapted to it and started running sets like Tail Glow Energy Ball Manaphy, Nasty Plot/Perish Song Celebi, Nasty Plot Thundurus and Calm Mind Unaware Clefable more commonly in order to deal with it more easily.

 

[Roylund]

Mega-Slowbro is only A rank because it's too matchup-based to be a consistent sweeper, has to choose between being shut down by status if it runs Slack Off and being vulnerable for 2 turns if it runs Rest, is not particularly difficult to shut down, has a handful of reliable anwsers, and the metagame has adapted to it and started running sets like Tail Glow Energy Ball Manaphy, Nasty Plot/Perish Song Celebi, Nasty Plot Thundurus and Calm Mind Unaware Clefable more commonly in order to deal with it more easily.

Alright thanks for the answer. However, isn't CroBro a reliable answer to Status?

Edit: Thank you for the answers.

 

[Albacore]

Yes, but CroBro has its own problems, like being fodder for certain Substitute setup sweepers such as Mega-Gyarados and Mega-Altaria, and not being able to recover on the spot means it's essentially beaten by 3HKOs. Also, Rest doesn't remove Leech Seeds which are still able to wear it down over time.

 

[firehusky]

Also crobro is either walled by dark types if running psyshock, or water absorb mons if running scald.

 

[WideTomato]

Also crobro is either walled by dark types if running psyshock, or water absorb mons if running scald.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt slowbro would ever run psyshock as being walled by dark types (bisharp, TTar mdos and sableye) < being walled by water absorbers which are pretty rare in the current meta.

Edit: this is my post number 404, so you might have a hard time finding it.

 

[Firebird101]

No need for water absorbers. Water is resisted by enough setup sweepers as it is so while it hasn't gotten it's boosts up plenty of mons can hide behind a sub.

 

[pretty little liAr]

Okay. Let's rap things up.
Stop saying stuff like loppuny has "a horrible case of the 4mss" as that's very different then saying loppuny is versatile and only must have two moves (high jump kick and frustration) and the others two slots can be chosen depending on what you want loppuny to be able to do. There's been lots of discussion on this lately and I just wanted to make things clear. Stuff like mega Gallade, mega loppuny, mega Gyarados and greninja do not have the 4mss.
Bye the way, this is my last post so, bye everyone. Thanks for the support :).

 

[Karxrida]

Okay. Let's rap things up.
Stop saying stuff like loppuny has "a horrible case of the 4mss" as that's very different then saying loppuny is versatile and only must have two moves (high jump kick and frustration) and the others two slots can be chosen depending on what you want loppuny to be able to do. There's been lots of discussion on this lately and I just wanted to make things clear. Stuff like mega Gallade, mega loppuny, mega Gyarados and greninja do not have the 4mss.
Bye the way, this is my last post so, bye everyone. Thanks for the support :).

I like this guy.

Now on to the D-Ranks. It's late so these are probably not the most thought-out and I'm bad at expressing my opinion anyway, but fuck it.

Mega Audino D -> Unranked
It's outclassed by a ton while eating up a Mega and the main arguments I've seen for keeping it make me want to rank normal Audino more, since it actual does something (Wish + Regenerator with decent Special Bulk).

Cloyster D -> D or Unranked
I've seen it do some damage a couple times if it finds a turn to Shell Smash, but other times it's complete dead weight. Mega Metagross and Keldeo existing is probably enough reason to unrank since they're so common (especially Keldeo, which iirc outspeeds boosted Cloyster with a Scarf but it's late and I'm lazy), can take a boosted hit and OHKO back easy, but I really don't care.

Cofagrigus D -> Unranked
What does this thing do outside of being annoying? It's useless against defensive teams and kinda annoying for Offensive, but not hard to wear down since its only recovery is Pain Split and Lefties.

Dugtrio D -> C- or Higher
Got better in the transition to ORAS as others have stated, being a good partner for a couple new Megas like Pidgeot and killing stuff like T-Tar and Bisharp is always good.

Flygon D -> Unranked
Outclassed by other Defoggers with better offensive or defensive presence, or have better utility in general like Latias' Healing Wish. Not being able to capitalize on its Electric immunity when the most relevant Electrics beat or cripple it sucks. It beats Bisharp, sure, but you lose effectiveness against everything else.

Heracross D -> C- or Higher
Haven't seen it in action but Band and Toxic/Flame Orb + Guts seem decent on paper. AV can have the same Special bulk as Conk while fast enough to beat Adamant Bisharp if EV'd correctly while being able to deal with Keldeo since you resist Secret Sword, but like I said this is mainly on-paper analysis.

Hydreigon D -> C- or Higher
Got better in ORAS in dealing with Balance, plus it makes a good Mega Metagross partner.

I'll do the rest later; it's 1:45 AM and I'm starting to get that kind of delusional that only happens when you need sleep.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

The reason Cofagrigus is ranked at all because it is essentially a 1 time full stop to practically any ability reliant Attacker like Khan, Mawile, Greninja, Salamance, Azumarill, metagross or Similar. Even if it dies in the process its done the job of stopping the threat and forcing the switch while also being able to spread will-oh-wisp making it a bit of a nuisence. Atleast thats what I gather.
However I do agree it should be unranked since its niche is shrinking all the time. The pokemon it supposedly stops are either getting banned or are already, those that aren't can be dealt with via other more versitile pokemon such as Unaware users or moves like Trick and even if you take away a threatening opposing ability once thats all it is just a one time stop. If you cant Kill or trap the weakened threat it'll switch out and comeback for more later leaving you with either a weakened or dead Cofa whom is otherwise dead weight most of the time anyway.

Cofagrigus to be unranked

 

[Prinz]

I guess it's an alright Trick Room setter which has a good offensive presence with Nasty Plot as well. D rank seems fitting to me, but as it isn't really relevant in the metagame I guess that unranking it is fine though, just wanted to say that, apart its defensive set, it has an offensive niche, too.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

It doesnt matter if a pokemon isnt relevant in the meta. That is a horrible argument. Tangrowth is irrelivant in this meta, lets derank him, shall we? No, it doesnt work like that at all, guys.

Cofagrigus has a niche that is keeping it from being Unranked, and that is Mummy. If Mega Lopunny hits this guy with any move, his ability is useless against it. Azumarill, same thing. You guys do realize this thing can stop a decent amount of threats with just an ability? Metagross Mega hates losing that .33 increase on Zen and Meteor Mash, Altaria doesnt like losing Pixilate, And im pretty sure MLop hates losing Scrappy against a Ghost type.

So, you tell me, a pokemon that doesnt take up a mega slot, helps out to destroy a few threats to OU, and has decent defenses... I dont think that deserves unranked, honestly i might even go to the reaches of putting it to C- rank. I mean, thats not out of the question, right?

Lets also not forget it is a decent TR setter, has access to NP, and as someone said has access to a shaky but not unreliable Pain Split and Lefties.

I remember using alexwolf 's Sloth team and even though i havent used it in awhile, the guy worked pretty well on it.

 

[Kurona]

Can someone honestly tell me what Whimsicott is doing ranked? I realize it's D but I don't really see much of a reason in ranking it. I assume it's ranked because of Prankster and it's unique typing, but honestly, what can it do? Priority Leech Seed? It barely has offensive presence outside of a sort of okay STAB Moonblast, it's defences are awful with weakness to common types...
I get the feeling I'm missing something big and someone will probably tell me why it's not bad and why it should even move up a rank or something, but I'm not entirely sure what Whimsicott is supposed to do.

edit: some other D-rank changes I agree with:

Unranked

Stay in D/Unranked

Stay in D

Move up to C-/C

Unranked

Stay in D

Move up to C-

Move up to C+

Stay in D

Still don't know what this thing does lol

Unranked

Unranked

Unranked

Unranked

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Can someone honestly tell me what Whimsicott is doing ranked? I realize it's D but I don't really see much of a reason in ranking it. I assume it's ranked because of Prankster and it's unique typing, but honestly, what can it do? Priority Leech Seed? It barely has offensive presence, it's defences are awful with weakness to common types...
I get the feeling I'm missing something big and someone will probably tell me why it's not bad and why it should even move up a rank or something, but I'm not entirely sure what Whimsicott is supposed to do.

Ill be honest with you, the guy is so annoying to the point where i have to sack a pokemon cause of its annoying ass priority Leech Seed Protect Sub combo, but thats probably cause im an idiot when it comes to that.

Also to note Whimsicott is completley shut down by Grass types in that case and shows no offensive pressure. I mean, even the little key shows he got some muscle! But yea this guy should be unranked, he can be taken out by a lot of shit and literally has no bond with a team whatsoever.

 

[Kurona]

By the way alexwolf , will the thread 'reset' itself and we'll have to go through all the S & A+, A and A- ranks process come Greninja's ban like we did with Megamence?

 

[fran17]

Can someone honestly tell me what Whimsicott is doing ranked? I realize it's D but I don't really see much of a reason in ranking it. I assume it's ranked because of Prankster and it's unique typing, but honestly, what can it do? Priority Leech Seed? It barely has offensive presence outside of a sort of okay STAB Moonblast, it's defences are awful with weakness to common types...
I get the feeling I'm missing something big and someone will probably tell me why it's not bad and why it should even move up a rank or something, but I'm not entirely sure what Whimsicott is supposed to do.

It's pretty good for supporting the team, access to Stun Spore, Encore, Memento, Tailwind and Leech Seed is nice combined with Prankster