Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[scpinion]

I wanted to chime in on some of the recent discussion, but couldn't find the time to write this up as it was being discussed...

While I think the usage stats are really cool (I've heard the guy who made the page is awesome), I do not think they are enough to rationalize/justify a nerf on the most-used type. Freeroamer has made some excellent points along this line, where he discusses the allure of Psychic/Flying/Water/Steel being the ability to approach team-building from a more standard perspective. If we are going to utilize the stats to discuss nerfing a specific type, then I'm more inclined to utilize the matchup chart that lies beneath the usage stats. This contains a wealth of information on what types/matchups could be broken.

In our ideal metagame, that whole table would be mostly gray, with the exceptions being something that derives the type effectiveness chart. Obviously, that is not the case. If we're going to nerf a type, the idea would be to nerf a type that has consistently demonstrated an advantage against a large part of the metagame. Since the server reset back in November, Ground has faired better in the metagame than Flying both in the weighted and raw stats. However, it doesn't see near as much usage because that success derives from each team using the same 6 Pokemon. There is not a single person on the thread that thinks generic Ground needs a nerf, yet we are all losing to it more often than we are losing to Flying. I know this is precisely what DM argued earlier, but it bears repeating as it is an important point to consider when discussing Flying teams.

 

[Lukethehedgehog]

Alright guys! We've kinda derailed a bit recently talking about whether or not top-tier types need a nerf and discussing the January stats, but I think we should go back to discussing our current suspects, then the up-next ones, and then decide whether or not to nerf these types, as we will probably have another month's stats to use, and it will also give people more educated opinions if they are actively considering this problem for a bit, rather than just saying ">10% needs nerf."

As for the suspects:

Mega Sableye:
On Dark I believe it needs a ban. It has tremendous support, from every angle. Wish passing and Heal Bell support is readily provided by Umbreon. Umbreon, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz provide nice walls to switch in on attacks it doesn't like. Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Absol, Crawdaunt, Greninja, Bisharp, Houndoom, Honchkrow, Krookodile, Weavile, Drapion, Sharpedo, and Scrafty are all viable and provide tremendous offensive support to Mega Sableye, eliminating threats, checks, and counters, through wallbreaking, glass-cannons that can take out a Pokemon or two, other potential sweepers who can at the very least chop up the opposing team a bit, and multiple priority users. Heck, it even gets Zoroark mind games, and if you have it last in your party, then Zoroark can potentially eliminate your opponents go-to Mega Sableye check, or at least scout who it is and damage it a bit. It also has a few equally destructive sets. The most common moves will usually be Calm Mind and Recover, but it can then run WoW/Dark Pulse or Dazzling Gleam, Dazzling Ball, or even Taunt, Knock Off, Confuse Ray, Snarl, or Foul Play. It receives tremendous support and can sweep many teams when used effectively, and even if a counter can beat one set, it might lose to a coverage move, such as Dazzling Gleam, Snarl, or Confuse Ray hax. To conclude, BAN ON DARK.
On Ghost I think it is alright, so don't ban. Knock Off can really screw Ghost over, as can Dark teams, or random Shadow Ball coverage on something like Yanmega (I used to use that to have an easy time with Ghost--I used Metronome on it too to increase the damage, and it swept almost every Ghost team, usually from the start), Gardevoir, or Lati@s. Mega Sableye finally gives them a good answer to this, as it is neutral to both of their weaknesses, and can't have its item knocked off. Ghost also doesn't supply great defensive support. Some of its main walls are Dusclops (Knock Off weak), Dusknoir (single-Ghost typing is plain, and offers bad team synergy, no reliable recovery means Knock Off screws it too, as it relies on Lefties a lot), Gourgeist/Trevenant (weaknesses to both of Ghost's weaknesses as well as common coverage moves in Fire/Ice/Flying), and Jellicent (again weak to both of Ghost's weaknesses and common coverage in Electric/Grass). All of these have disadvantages. Ghost has no Wish passers, and the only Heal Beller is Mismagius, who sucks. Ghost actually does have decent offensive pressure in Gengar, Chandelure, and Aegislash, but that's about it. Mega Sableye actually helps Ghost become more viable and assists it in many type matchups, and because it assists in making Ghost a more competitive type in this metagame, it helps more than it hinders on Ghost, so, again, DON'T BAN ON GHOST.

Mega Medicham/Mega Gallade:
On Psychic, I believe they both need a ban. Mega Medicham offers tremendous walbreaking power, being able to 2HKO almost everything that isn't immune to or resists HJK. With coverage moves in Ice Punch, Poison Jab, and Psycho Cut, as well as priority in Fake Out (to break Sashes) and Bullet Punch (to finish off Sashed Pokemon and threaten Fairy types) it is an amazing wallbreaker. It has 100 base speed, which is average, but is enough for its job on Psychic, as it will outspeed everything it needs to kill (like Chansey, Porygon2, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Mandibuzz). Mega Gallade is an awesome sweeper. With incredible 165 base attack and access to Swords Dance or Bulk Up to boost that, it will hit hard. It also has a nifty base 110 speed tier, outspeeding most non-Scarfs, including Pokemon like Landorus, Thundurus-T, Terrakion, Keldeo, Infernape, and Garchomp, as well as the crowded base 100 speed tier and everything below it. With incredible STABs in Close Combat and Zen Headbutt, and then awesome coverage in Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Knock Off, Shadow Sneak, or even SubPunch it can nail anything you want it to. Pokemon like Azumarill who may wall one set (in this case, it walls SD/Knock Off/CC/Ice Punch) are nailed hard by coverage (in this case, Thunder Punch, or even simply Zen Headbutt does a lot). It also has above average bulk to be able to set up. On their own, I actually don't think they are broken--just very powerful. It is the support Psychic provides that makes them broken. They get Heal Bell support from Meloetta, Mew, Gardevoir, Latias, or Celebi. They get Wish passing support from Gardevoir, Espeon, Jirachi, or Latias. They get Healing Wish support from Gardevoir, Latias, or Jirachi. They get offensive support from Victini, Metagross, Latios, Meloetta, Alakazam, Starmie, or Gallade (for Medicham only, obviously). They have access to bona fide walls to switch to in Slowbro, Meloetta, Cresselia, Deoxys-D, Jirachi, Mew, Gardevoir, or Latias. This is tremendous support, with amazing variety. Every one of the support categories contains at least 3 Pokemon, and usually more. When you combine this with what they already do extremely effectively, it makes them broken, as this support lets them perform their roles multiple times. For example, you can play recklessly with either Mega mid-game, before going to a Healing Wish user and bringing them back to full health to fight again. So, they are both fantastic Pokemon on their own, but then they receive absolutely fantastic support which pushes them over the top, BOTH MEGA-MEDICHAM AND MEGA-GALLADE NEED A BAN ON PSYCHIC.
On Fighting, I actually think neither is broken, so don't ban. They do of course receive amazing offensive pressure on Fighting, as it generally runs a Hyper-Offensive playstyle and has access to a variety of fast hard-hitters, including excellent Band/Specs/Scarf users. They don't, however, have access to any other support, really. Fighting has no Heal Beller, no Wish passer, no Healing Wish user, and below average walls (except Cobalion). Cobalion is actually a great physical wall that provides good support through Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and a slow Volt Switch to bring them in safely without having to sacrifice something. Their special walls however, are pretty much limited to Assault Vest Conkeldurr and Assault Vest Hitmontop. In my opinion, both serve their role without being too broken on Fighting, although I am slightly on the fence about Mega Gallade, because if their Scarfers or fast Pokemon are eliminated or Paralyzed, it can come in, set up, and sweep almost every type. This can be easy to accomplish with Fighting's own powerful Scarfers and Cobalion being able to tank a hit and Thunder Wave back. So, definitely DON'T BAN MEGA-MEDICHAM ON FIGHTING and MAYBE BAN MEGA-GALLADE ON FIGHTING. I am leaning towards no ban, but I could be convinced that it needs a ban.

TL; DR: See the bolded bits. Capitalized bolded bits are my main opinions.

What do you think of Greninja?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

What do you think of Greninja?

Greninja is in the next batch, and I think we should deal with these three first. As a quick summary though, I'm not sure whether or not it should be banned, as it does have wide coverage, can go mixed, special, or physical, and has excellent support, but I don't really see it sweeping too much. It usually runs a Choice item, so you can wall the move it picked, or if it is LO, then hazards, status, the LO recoil, and priority can wear it down quickly.

 

[Nani Man]

Hey guys, some changes I want to inform everyone on!

Tiering Philosophy

The old goal was to create a metagame where all types would be near equal and all can be used fairly. This was flawed and only promotes type matchup mattering, rather than skill. We tried this and it failed, and now we have moved to a new goal explained below.

The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. As I've stated before, the beauty of monotype is to defeat Fire with Steel, Electric with Water and so on. Making all those types forcefully equal just results in type matchup mattering, meaning Fire would definitely beat Steel, Electric would definitely beat Water and so on.


Reasoning to ban

Things to look for when deciding to discuss and potentially ban a pokemon, is usually the following checklist:

If a pokemon creates an auto-win condition such as Talonflame did (+1 Brave Bird vs Grass/Bug/Fighting), it is overpowered and will be banned.

1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)

2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)

3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)


With that said, let us look at some threats: Mega Gallade, Mega Sableye, Kyurem-White, Shaymin-Sky.

Kyurem-White definitely promotes type based matchups, and is extremely powerful.
Shaymin-Sky is the same case as above, bonus haxy.
Mega Gallade as stated in my earlier post is definitely strong, but has amazing team support on Psychic.
Mega Sableye is strong, though it can be dealt with. A suspect test may happen after watching the meta settle.


Throughout the thread, we've seen countless discussion about Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky, and in reality, they served their purpose for our long trial and are now banned back to ubers.

Mega Gallade is naturally monstrous, though Psychic gives it an extra edge through team support, whilst Fighting does not. I've explained in this post a summary of it. With that said, Galladite is type-banned on Psychic.

Mega Sableye is a big threat, though I do not feel it is broken enough to be quickbanned. I want to see how the metagame reacts with those changes and then depending on the change (if any), it will be Suspect Tested.

tl;dr Kyurem-W, Shaymin-Sky are banned back to ubers. Mega Gallade is type-banned on Psychic. Mega Sableye is spared for now, though will be revisited shortly.

Swag Frog>>>
I now wish to bring our attention to Greninja. I want to know our thoughts on this as a community before making a decision on it. I'll post my thoughts on this afterwards

Tanned Spider>>>
Might as well put this here since this post may overshadow Mega Metagross. But, I want Metagrossite to be discussed as well.


PS: Don't ask questions about the potential suspect test yet, everything will be revealed when/if needed.

 

[JayDubb]

It's happened guys! It's a good day for the Fighting type, although I wish Mega-Sableye got the ban. Considering Greninja, I think that one of the main things that should be considered is how good water and dark are as a type, similar to how psychic was good with MGallade. Also the fantastic ability to revenge kill 3/4's of the metagame is pretty OP, along with the power that comes with Protean and Life Orb - although most of what I just mentioned should be given information lol, I just want to start the conversation of in a direction that ensures that no POV is ignored. Overall, I'm not exactly sure as to whether or not it needs a ban at this point, I'd like to see what the rest of the community has to say.

 

[Mind Crush]

It's happened guys! It's a good day for the Fighting type, although I wish Mega-Sableye got the ban. Considering Greninja, I think that one of the main things that should be considered is how good water and dark are as a type, similar to how psychic was good with MGallade. Also the fantastic ability to revenge kill 3/4's of the metagame is pretty OP, along with the power that comes with Protean and Life Orb - although most of what I just mentioned should be given information lol, I just want to start the conversation of in a direction that ensures that no POV is ignored. Overall, I'm not exactly sure as to whether or not it needs a ban at this point, I'd like to see what the rest of the community has to say.

Congratulations on making the easiest to use type in the game even better and making the weakest types in the game even worse. I'm glad to see that you guys obviously know to make a banlist. Also props about not banning the most overpowered megas in the game. I'm glad to see that the people that make this list are completely sane.

 

[Balto]

this meta is absolute cancer minus the 900 setup sweepers ex:mega gal but you banned one. you also nerfed two types that didn't need a nerf. shaymin sky and kyurem white were above average mons on shitty types that got banned. banning them is like beating up kids in a wheelchair. im personally extremely disappointed in the community

 

[Nani Man]

The 'weakest' types may have lost an OP team member, but do you really want this meta to turn into a flip of the coin in hopes you get a neutral or advantageous matchup? That is NOT competitive and ruins the skill involved in this meta. In regards to Galladite, it will be looked at more on Fighting but I wanted to announce those changes first.

 

[AzzyNPC]

I made an account just to comment on this thread. This banlist is an absolute disgrace, Skymin and Kyu White were really the only things that Grass and Ice had going for them respectively and even gave them an even modest chance in most matchups. This is why mono needs suspect tests like OU, and shouldnt be up to a select few people who obviously dont know what they are doing. Meanwhile, Water and Flying remain untouched. Great job guys, you're definitely not the reason monotype isnt taken seriously at all. And as far as Skymin being to haxy, dont even try to bring up "skill versus chance" when this entire game is dictated by an RNG. Best banlist 10/10.

 

[Balto]

no lol gal on fighting is fine. it's the ridiculous amount of cores in the meta that follow it. the offensive meta in the meta isn't the problem and when we repeatedly ban offensive mons and still have problems in the meta one would think to start looking at the cores but noooooooooooooooooooo. we literally nerfed two already subpar types and steel/flying/dark is dominant as ever.

 

[Mind Crush]

So do you approve in types autolosing to other types? With megagross, scizor, and the rest of the steel core, Ice basically autoloses to steel. Several people have complained about Megagross and you haven't done jack. "but do you really want this meta to turn into a flip of the coin in hopes you get a neutral or advantageous matchup? That is NOT competitive and ruins the skill involved in this meta. " Then why aren't overpowered pokemon like megagross banned as well?

 

[AzzyNPC]

So do you approve in types autolosing to other types? With megagross, scizor, and the rest of the steel core, Ice basically autoloses to steel. Several people have complained about Megagross and you haven't done jack. "but do you really want this meta to turn into a flip of the coin in hopes you get a neutral or advantageous matchup? That is NOT competitive and ruins the skill involved in this meta. " Then why aren't overpowered pokemon like megagross banned as well?

You're forgetting about fairy as well. It is nearly impossible for a fairy team to beat a steel team, especially with Megagross, which decimates everything it doesn't outspeed with bullet punch and anything it does with meteor mash.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Tfw you laddered earlier using a Pokemon that is now banned... Anyway it was borked, glad they are banned. Nani Man, you did a good day's work today :P
As to people wondering why bad types were nerfed:
Kyu-W made everything so much more matchup based. It was basically gg if you came up against types like Grass, Bug, or Flying to name a few. As Nani said, relying on matchups is unskillful, and we want to promote a more skill based metagame
Skymin was haxy asf. A lucky flinch could change games, and it has a 60% chance. All supposed counters were worn down quickly through Seed Flare SpD drops and then flinchax. Almost nothing could outright beat it and it was insanely fast (outspeeding stuff like Greninja even) with great SpA for its purposes. This again makes you over reliant on luck, as you are praying for flinches which is not what we want in monotype, A SKILL BASED METAGAME

Megagross has been suggested, and now that these have been settled, it will be discussed along with Swag Frog. People complaining about top-tier types being untouched, Water has Greninja being discussed, Steel has Megagross being discussed. IF Flying does need a nerf, it will be brought up and discussed in due time.

Also Nani, no comment on MegaCham means no ban I'm assuming?

Nani literally just said that if we forced every type to be equal the metagame would suck, so Ice may just have to accept an auto-loss to Steel. If you think something is broken, suggest backed by evidence in a better way than "You unbanned this and banned that now you have to ban this Pokemon I hate" because otherwise nobody will take you seriously.

Sorry if I overstep or seem to minimodding too much, but damn I'm fed up with people bitching on here. Monotype is an amazing metagame--let's keep it that way and be respectful.

 

[ChildOfDisorder]

First off, I'd like to say the ban has left people with a higher salt content than Five Guys: Burgers and Fries' French fries.

Secondly, and more importantly, my opinion.

I'm not going to lie, I'm somewhat surprised Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky were banned, both were extremely good members to their respective types, and both were able to bring the types up in usage.

I'm not surprised because they weren't OP, they were pretty powerful. I'm more surprised because, in my opinion, the original goal hadn't really failed. (Then again I've been away for a while so maybe it had.)

I'm more concerned that Ice and Grass will disappear off the face of the meta again now that Kyuwe and Skymin are gone, as they had before. I'm curious to see how this will play out, for now.

 

[AzzyNPC]

I don't use Grass, Water, of Psychic, but these bans definitely skew the balance in the favor of they types that are already on top. Ice has nothing going for it. Neither does grass really. I stand by what I say.

 

[scpinion]

Its a great day in Monotype!

As for the Bans: I couldn't agree more with them. The banning of the two ubers will make for a much more competitive metagame. Now that the meta has had some time to settle I think the type specific ban for Gallade was the right choice. It really fits in the fighting's HO playstyle and, while threatening, doesn't push the type over the top.

On Sableye: I still support a type-specfiic ban on Dark. However, my opinion on this will heavily depend upon the results of the Greninja discussion. Dark should not be forced to lose both m-Sableye and Greninja.

On Greninja: I'll elaborate on my opinions in another post. However, I will initially be in the "no ban" camp. One of the biggest points to consider when discussing it is not just how it will nerf Dark or Water teams, but how it will enhance the viability of other top-tier types like Psychic, Flying and Ground. In addition, what lower tier types will be made viable (from Nani's post this means usable, not equally good)? This is going to be a very interesting discussion. :)

 

[Mind Crush]

Look if you want to ban EVERYTHING overpowered in the game then it's completely fine with me. But what in the right mind makes you think banning only the good things on the subpar types was a good idea?

 

[ArVaDa-]

I would like to mention that the pokemon banned / are still being looked at have been argued over for, a month now (15ish pages I believe). There was plenty of time to give reasoning for this, that, and whatever. Now more people know about this forum should they care to contribute. If the metagame ends up being so gutwrenchingly hopeless as you guys are making it out to be, it isn't like it can't be reversed. However, we haven't even played any matches in this new era and people are already auto losing to types, just wait for the server to reset and shove replays at this forum like it was your job or something if that is the case haha.

On a more productive note, instead of seething at the loss of these two behemoths, why don't we look at these "weaker" types and see if there is a way to alleviate that. Mega Metagross / Mega Scizor would seem like prime candidates to throw in the trash can to, in theory, give ice some breathing room and get some usage. Not only would that probably not work for various reasons seen and unforeseen, but now there isn't an ice puncher running around smashing flying teams out of the sky. Now there isn't a U-turn to smack those psychic types (If A is gone then B roams free arguments). Removing a pokemon, especially ones that were pretty much like giving steroids to an athlete, is going to have some repercussions.

tl;dr Don't lose sleep over this, it is pokemon. Suggestions, comments, and concerns are more than welcome in this room so long as we all are reasonable.

PS: I think it is good for a place like this to be lively again. Can't wait to hear some greninja talk.

 

[Nani Man]

Mega Metagross will be discussed along with Greninja. I want community input before making a decision about this which is why it wasn't banned along with the others. As I said before, everyone's opinion is valued and now is the time to share them. Please do not make empty posts and give reasoning to your stance. I will make a post about my thoughts on them soon.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

I will write more later, but right now I think I am in the don't ban Ninja Frog, and DO ban the Mega tank camps. What's done is done, and there is no use complaining about it now--you have had over a month to express your opinions, so commenting for the first time now and complaining shows that you either A) Don't care enough to comment and help in a civilized manner B) You are too lazy to type up your opinion or C) You just like to complain. Or all of the above. We should focus now on Greninja and Megagross, and how the new bans will affect the metagame imo (I'll also type up my opinion on how this will affect the metagame in a later post).

On a more positive note, YAY! This is my 150th post

 

[pokecole]

Hey guys, some changes I want to inform everyone on!

Tiering Philosophy

The old goal was to create a metagame where all types would be near equal and all can be used fairly. This was flawed and only promotes type matchup mattering, rather than skill. We tried this and it failed, and now we have moved to a new goal explained below.

The new goal is to create a balanced metagame, such that all types can be used. The keyword here is used. This doesn't mean all types must be equally viable, but rather usable and competitive. As I've stated before, the beauty of monotype is to defeat Fire with Steel, Electric with Water and so on. Making all those types forcefully equal just results in type matchup mattering, meaning Fire would definitely beat Steel, Electric would definitely beat Water and so on.

This doesn't work, as has been showed numerous times, because you don't do anything about the fact that water is doing better than electric, even if it has a type disadvantage. What are you going to do about that? Bring something better to water to try and balance it and destroy the meta? Nerf electric somehow and kill their chances of doing anything ever? The real beauty of monotype is having a disadvantage and still winning. You can't do anything to specific types based on their advantages, or else you have to specifically go through each and every single type, study their good and bad match-ups and think of a solution that helps them with their disadvantages while not ruining the rest of the meta, something you have clearly not invested the time into and have decided not to do so. You cannot make a perfect metagame. NEVER. It's impossible. I feel like the quality of gen 6.5 has been deteriorating rapidly because stupidly obvious things get ignored (i.e. mega-sableye, megagross, genesect) and the community goes into super-scrutiny mode on things that don't really need hit. (i.e. mega-gallade)

Reasoning to ban

Things to look for when deciding to discuss and potentially ban a pokemon, is usually the following checklist:

If a pokemon creates an auto-win condition such as Talonflame did (+1 Brave Bird vs Grass/Bug/Fighting), it is overpowered and will be banned.

1. If a pokemon promotes type based matchups mattering a whole lot more, it will also be banned. (eg Kyurem-W,Skymin)

2. If the pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength, it will be banned. (eg Mega Slowbro/Mence)

3. If the pokemon forms a deadly core that cannot be beaten by most teams, it will be banned. (eg Aegislash on Steel)

I've got mixed feelings on these points, so I'll list which point I'm addressing and how I feel about it.
1. Again, I think this whole notion is flawed. You can't just ban stuff for being good specifically against one thing because that creates a scenario where you take away vital tools from one type and cause them to flop against others for the sake of another type. What do you plan to do to nerf the fighting vs. normal match-up? Take away close combat or something? It just doesn't work.

There ALWAYS type advantages and disadvantages, and you can't take that from the game. Maybe ban scizor, keldeo, mega metagross, mega medicham, and conkeldurr because they support fighting or steel vs. ice? It sounds stupid, right? That's exactly what you are doing by banning things that don't affect but one match-up. I.e. gallade-mega. It doesn't support a healthy meta unless you put the time and effort into putting ALL match-ups under scrutiny, which hasn't been done.

2. The natural strength argument is the only one that makes sense. Anything is good with team support. Hell, I've swept with a whiscash before because I had a baton passer. So ban whiscash? No, that's idiotic.

3. I agree with this point.

With that said, let us look at some threats: Mega Gallade, Mega Sableye, Kyurem-White, Shaymin-Sky.

Kyurem-White definitely promotes type based matchups, and is extremely powerful.
Shaymin-Sky is the same case as above, bonus haxy.
Mega Gallade as stated in my earlier post is definitely strong, but has amazing team support on Psychic.
Mega Sableye is strong, though it can be dealt with. A suspect test may happen after watching the meta settle.

Kyurem-white was a terrible thing to bring down, and I will never understand why it was brought down. Checking broken with broken isn't a working strategy, as has been proven multiple times, including with this recent showing of prowess.

I feel the same way about shaymin-sky. It's a terrible idea in general.

Mega Gallade doesn't really sweep much. A good core of any sort stops it, and it can't stop a whole well-built core on its own. Like against steel, skarmory says "nope" and you just are forced to swap out or whiff and attack it for no gain. Same with flying. It doesn't one-shot hardly anything without a boost, and even with it, you lack the coverage to do more than late-game sweeping.

Mega Sableye is one of the worst things ever to come to mono. It has godly defenses at 50/125/115 and has few real counters that are only accessible to a few types. Here's a little bit of fun:
So here's why mega sableye is good. Ok, so you know how mega evolving on a turn doesn't change the turn order? That means the turn you mega evolve, you still get prankster to will-o-wisp whatever you need to, plus you get the bulk of a god.

Obviously you don't believe the bulk, but it's real. It gets +50 base stat in each defense stat.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
*Adamant* Mega Blaziken flare blitz barely 2hkos, and it only would 2hko because you can't will-o-wisp it.
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- Chance to 3HKO
Mega metagross gets completed dismantled, not even 2hkoing and getting wow'd immediately. Not that hardly anyone runs adamant because you want to outspeed things.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; Chance to 2HKO.
One of the former most powerful attackers in OU has a difficult time 2hko, which it won't generally. Besides, mega sableye just sets up a prankster calm mind the turn it megas and takes only like 30% from it.

Look at all these things that are getting or were suspected/banned from OU/Mono and see how they whiff when trying to stop it? Can you tell me that's healthy?

Throughout the thread, we've seen countless discussion about Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky, and in reality, they served their purpose for our long trial and are now banned back to ubers.

Mega Gallade is naturally monstrous, though Psychic gives it an extra edge through team support, whilst Fighting does not. I've explained in this post a summary of it. With that said, Galladite is type-banned on Psychic.

Huh?! What is gallade even doing on psychic that megacham wasn't already? As I said before, team support is a terrible argument because you can build a team around anything and sweep. Mega heracross is amazing with team support when you set up sticky web, let's ban it. Not a great idea. If you want to ban something at least give us a good reason rather than doing what you feel like.

Mega Sableye is a big threat, though I do not feel it is broken enough to be quickbanned. I want to see how the metagame reacts with those changes and then depending on the change (if any), it will be Suspect Tested.

tl;dr Kyurem-W, Shaymin-Sky are banned back to ubers. Mega Gallade is type-banned on Psychic. Mega Sableye is spared for now, though will be revisited shortly.

Swag Frog>>>
I now wish to bring our attention to Greninja. I want to know our thoughts on this as a community before making a decision on it. I'll post my thoughts on this afterwards


PS: Don't ask questions about the potential suspect test yet, everything will be revealed when/if needed.

Mega sableye sweeps whole teams easily. What does a psychic, water, electric, rock, ice, steel, etc. do against mega sableye? Toxic it? Nope. Get will-o-wisp'd? Watch it set up calm minds, heal off any damage, and sweep with dark pulse/shadow ball? Yeah. Seriously. You can't stop it without having a VERY strong physical fire type, or something with mold breaker toxic, which nearly no types have. Mold breaker toxic is just a terrible strat that people are forced to do because mega sableye wins otherwise. You HAVE to crit it to even try to kill it, otherwise you lose. Plain and simple. If you don't think so, obviously you haven't faced one with any of the above types, or else it would be quickbanned already.

Hopefully you think about what I said a little and try to use it to help out the metagame rather than let us continually play gen 6.5 mono, which has been arguably one of the worst generations in a long time because of lack of treatment of the parasites that are plaguing us right now, as well as cores that are next to impossible to break, like generic flying.

 

[bubblymaika]

Stupid touchpad. Sorry about that. Anyways, I feel like we would be in a much better spot had we not brought down such blatantly broken Pokemon in the first place. Now we have a lot of catching up to do, notably with threats like Megagross out and about.

Speaking of threats, I might as well give my thoughts on the current suspects.

Sableye: Its powerful defense and recovery make it difficult to take down for some types (esp physically biased ones such as fighting due to willowisp). Magic Bounce means it's impossible to toxic or burn directly, and even then it can heal off most of the damage. Calm mind helps its special defense to boot; after a certain point, it's praying for a crit. Granted, another mon that can do this is Clefable (and it doesnt take damage from any status if MG), but Clefable can actually be phased or taunted. Mega Sableye can only be phased by dragon tail and who the fuck wants to run that just to deal with it? If mold breaker toxics/taunts and Dtail become far more common on things that they should be, I'll def leans towards a ban. However, I've not laddered in a very long time and haven't been on showdown very much either as of late tbqh, so I can't say if they have. I'll likely have a more solid opinion once I catch up and the meta has time to settle from KyuW, Gallade, and Skymin, though I would like to see this suspected at some point.

Greninja: Its coverage is ridiculous and its speed unmatched by any non mega/scarfer; I'm very glad this mon has left OU. As for monotype, a lot of the greninja checks/counters that weren't viable in OU or were ridiculously passive (ex P2, Umbreon, Lanturn, Chansey, Articuno) are actually viable in their monos. I feel that ninja can stay on dark as it give the type the coverage it needs to help with threats, notably fairy and to an extent, fighting. I would not mind a suspect on water. Overall, my biggest concern with this mon is its coverage and the guessing game that will need to be played, though I feel that its a much smaller threat in comparison to something called genesect (seriously, why is this still here).

Megagross: I just had to wish for tough claws on this thing. Unless you're Foul Play P2 or maybe a torkoal or skarm, this big guy's gonna fuck up your day (and is also the one I've had the most experience with here in mono). If you don't resist Meteor Mash, you better hope that you can live another or a bullet punch AND that gross doesnt get the boost. But let's say you resist MM and BP, what else can it hit you with? Birdaboos get whacked with ice punch or thunderpunch; Steel types are greeted with EQ or Hammer Arm. Both fire and electric get killed by EQ. Water gets greeted with Tpunch or Grassknot (which is contact for some reason and gets the TC boost...) If this doesn't get suspected this time around, I quit. This guy should have been gone LONG AGO.

TL;DR and sorry if i sound dumb: Mega Sableye should be suspected (personally i feel it should be suspected on both types but I'd be fine if it was only on dark), Greninja should be suspected on water at least, Megagross should get the fuck out needs a suspect, and WHY IS GENESECT STILL HERE.

also insert generic flying needs nerf complaint here

 

[CapnSlinky]

Well, I figure it's about time to throw my 2 cents in.

As for the bans:
The ban for Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky has me a bit concerned, much the same as Matt, that these two types will drastically drop in usage. The concern is lesser for grass simply because of the, at least as far as I know of, incredible leap Serperior has made. Now before people discredit me, I've played around with a grass team without Shaymin-Sky, and with Serperior. Does Serperior lack much of the power Shaymin-Sky did? Yes, at least at first. Once you get a Leaf Storm off, which if you're playing intelligently, should be no problem, it will put major holes in things with a Life Orb. Granted it does lack coverage, but that's something that we'll have to deal with.

Kyurem-White on the other hand doesn't really have a replacement. While I recognize the insane power it had, Ice needed that kind of power. However it's not like people hadn't been using Kyurem-Black for special offense. A Base 120 Special Attack is very good, and it certainly has a very viable special movepool, and many options for a mixed set. Take this time and make Ice work. Don't be afraid to try something crazy if it has a shot.

Mega-Gallade on Psychic isn't something I've seen much, so no comment there.

As to the next suspects:
Greninja isn't terribly hard to deal with. Most of them, at least that I've seen anymore, are Choice Scarf, meaning if you have something that can take the hit it's going to throw at you, you can hit back, and more than likely faint it. If it's a Life Orb or Choice Specs set, you bring in your scarfer and take it out. While it has a strong offensive presence, if you know what kind of item it's holding, it loses so much of it's surprise factor, which is the thing that makes Greninja so dangerous.

Mega-Metagross on the other hand, is an entirely different story. I'm all for a ban on it, which may surprise some people, seeing as it's my main sweeper on my psychic team. That's the thing. Once Mega-Metagross is set up, which by the way, it only needs one turn, it's set to take out at least two or three pokemon before it's taken down itself. That's incredibly unhealthy. The worst part is, if you wanted, you wouldn't even have to run any investment into speed or attack. Base 145 attack with just an Attack-boosting Nature hits 358, which if you factor in Tough Claws, is an insanely powerful 476 Attack stat. Keep in mind, that's for it's two STAB moves and with only a positive nature. If you put all your EVs into HP and Special Defense, and run Agility, you have a pokemon that with one turn, can outspeed anything with under Base 106 Speed that has a scarf. Anything faster, barring a few exceptions, likely doesn't have the power needed to take down Mega Metagross in one hit if you're fully invested into bulk. This is something that has a 700 BST, with everything except HP above the average of 100. Why hasn't this thing already been addressed?

As for Mega-Sableye, I don't think it's that bad, but I see where people are coming from. I'll have to see it a bit more on the opposing side or start playing Ghost and Dark more to get a clearer picture.

TLDR: No ban for Greninja, Yes ban Mega-Metagross, No comment on Mega-Sableye

Also, seriously, why is Genesect still running around free?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

This doesn't work, as has been showed numerous times, because you don't do anything about the fact that water is doing better than electric, even if it has a type disadvantage. What are you going to do about that? Bring something better to water to try and balance it and destroy the meta? Nerf electric somehow and kill their chances of doing anything ever? The real beauty of monotype is having a disadvantage and still winning. You can't do anything to specific types based on their advantages, or else you have to specifically go through each and every single type, study their good and bad match-ups and think of a solution that helps them with their disadvantages while not ruining the rest of the meta, something you have clearly not invested the time into and have decided not to do so. You cannot make a perfect metagame. NEVER. It's impossible. I feel like the quality of gen 6.5 has been deteriorating rapidly because stupidly obvious things get ignored (i.e. mega-sableye, megagross, genesect) and the community goes into super-scrutiny mode on things that don't really need hit. (i.e. mega-gallade)



I've got mixed feelings on these points, so I'll list which point I'm addressing and how I feel about it.
1. Again, I think this whole notion is flawed. You can't just ban stuff for being good specifically against one thing because that creates a scenario where you take away vital tools from one type and cause them to flop against others for the sake of another type. What do you plan to do to nerf the fighting vs. normal match-up? Take away close combat or something? It just doesn't work.

There ALWAYS type advantages and disadvantages, and you can't take that from the game. Maybe ban scizor, keldeo, mega metagross, mega medicham, and conkeldurr because they support fighting or steel vs. ice? It sounds stupid, right? That's exactly what you are doing by banning things that don't affect but one match-up. I.e. gallade-mega. It doesn't support a healthy meta unless you put the time and effort into putting ALL match-ups under scrutiny, which hasn't been done.

2. The natural strength argument is the only one that makes sense. Anything is good with team support. Hell, I've swept with a whiscash before because I had a baton passer. So ban whiscash? No, that's idiotic.

3. I agree with this point.



Kyurem-white was a terrible thing to bring down, and I will never understand why it was brought down. Checking broken with broken isn't a working strategy, as has been proven multiple times, including with this recent showing of prowess.

I feel the same way about shaymin-sky. It's a terrible idea in general.

Mega Gallade doesn't really sweep much. A good core of any sort stops it, and it can't stop a whole well-built core on its own. Like against steel, skarmory says "nope" and you just are forced to swap out or whiff and attack it for no gain. Same with flying. It doesn't one-shot hardly anything without a boost, and even with it, you lack the coverage to do more than late-game sweeping.

Mega Sableye is one of the worst things ever to come to mono. It has godly defenses at 50/125/115 and has few real counters that are only accessible to a few types. Here's a little bit of fun:
So here's why mega sableye is good. Ok, so you know how mega evolving on a turn doesn't change the turn order? That means the turn you mega evolve, you still get prankster to will-o-wisp whatever you need to, plus you get the bulk of a god.

Obviously you don't believe the bulk, but it's real. It gets +50 base stat in each defense stat.
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
*Adamant* Mega Blaziken flare blitz barely 2hkos, and it only would 2hko because you can't will-o-wisp it.
252+ Atk Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- Chance to 3HKO
Mega metagross gets completed dismantled, not even 2hkoing and getting wow'd immediately. Not that hardly anyone runs adamant because you want to outspeed things.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 133-156 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO; Chance to 2HKO.
One of the former most powerful attackers in OU has a difficult time 2hko, which it won't generally. Besides, mega sableye just sets up a prankster calm mind the turn it megas and takes only like 30% from it.

Look at all these things that are getting or were suspected/banned from OU/Mono and see how they whiff when trying to stop it? Can you tell me that's healthy?


Huh?! What is gallade even doing on psychic that megacham wasn't already? As I said before, team support is a terrible argument because you can build a team around anything and sweep. Mega heracross is amazing with team support when you set up sticky web, let's ban it. Not a great idea. If you want to ban something at least give us a good reason rather than doing what you feel like.



Mega sableye sweeps whole teams easily. What does a psychic, water, electric, rock, ice, steel, etc. do against mega sableye? Toxic it? Nope. Get will-o-wisp'd? Watch it set up calm minds, heal off any damage, and sweep with dark pulse/shadow ball? Yeah. Seriously. You can't stop it without having a VERY strong physical fire type, or something with mold breaker toxic, which nearly no types have. Mold breaker toxic is just a terrible strat that people are forced to do because mega sableye wins otherwise. You HAVE to crit it to even try to kill it, otherwise you lose. Plain and simple. If you don't think so, obviously you haven't faced one with any of the above types, or else it would be quickbanned already.

Hopefully you think about what I said a little and try to use it to help out the metagame rather than let us continually play gen 6.5 mono, which has been arguably one of the worst generations in a long time because of lack of treatment of the parasites that are plaguing us right now, as well as cores that are next to impossible to break, like generic flying.

I don't have time to counter the whole post,but there are a few things I want to point out before sleep.
+2 Mega Gallade does around 80% to Skarmory iirc so it can beat Skarm (it uses SD when you switch to Skarm). Also, saying all it does is sweep late game when it is a late game sweeper is kinda ridiculous. The CM/Recover/WoW/Dark Pulse set can be defeated by Articuno, just saying. It does around 58% WHEN IT IS AT +6 and Articuno has Pressure, Roost, and Heal Bell. Or Haze. Also, you can't run 252 HP, 252+ Def, and 252+ SpD as you are assuming in your calcs. Depending on the set, a lot can wall it. For example, Umbreon wins if no Dazzling Gleam. Nothing is unbeatable with smart teambuilding, and saying Gallade can't beat any core but Sableye sweeps everything is a little bit... Odd? Wrong? Backwards? Pick a word!
A request: PLEASE READ THE LAST FEW PAGES. We have discussed whether or not Flying needs a nerf, so look there before making us all have to repeat ourselves.
To conclude, Nani did a smart (/me applauds, good job), keep ninja, ban Megagross, Flying doesn't need a nerf, type ban MegaEye on Dark, typeban MegaCham on Psychic, Genesect, idk, Bug doesn't really need it imo, it will still be good without it, it just makes creating a Bug team harder cuz you want Genesect, but you want other Pokemon too lol. It is also slow, so not too broken imo, it needs Scarf to outspeed much, meaning you miss out on the power of LO or Specs. Download can be amazing or useless, so it is an iffy ability imo (it doesn't make it broken). Also 4x weak to Fire. Also, most people are just like "why is Genesect even unbanned", I don't remember a good pro-ban argument. Will explain my opinions in more detail later.

 

[pokecole]

I don't have time to counter the whole post,but there are a few things I want to point out before sleep.
+2 Mega Gallade does around 80% to Skarmory iirc so it can beat Skarm (it uses SD when you switch to Skarm). Also, saying all it does is sweep late game when it is a late game sweeper is kinda ridiculous. The CM/Recover/WoW/Dark Pulse set can be defeated by Articuno, just saying. It does around 58% WHEN IT IS AT +6 and Articuno has Pressure, Roost, and Heal Bell. Or Haze. Also, you can't run 252 HP, 252+ Def, and 252+ SpD as you are assuming in your calcs. Depending on the set, a lot can wall it. For example, Umbreon wins if no Dazzling Gleam. Nothing is unbeatable with smart teambuilding, and saying Gallade can't beat any core but Sableye sweeps everything is a little bit... Odd? Wrong? Backwards? Pick a word!
A request: PLEASE READ THE LAST FEW PAGES. We have discussed whether or not Flying needs a nerf, so look there before making us all have to repeat ourselves.
To conclude, Nani did a smart (/me applauds, good job), keep ninja, ban Megagross, Flying doesn't need a nerf, type ban MegaEye on Dark, typeban MegaCham on Psychic, Genesect, idk, Bug doesn't really need it imo, it will still be good without it, it just makes creating a Bug team harder cuz you want Genesect, but you want other Pokemon too lol. It is also slow, so not too broken imo, it needs Scarf to outspeed much, meaning you miss out on the power of LO or Specs. Download can be amazing or useless, so it is an iffy ability imo (it doesn't make it broken). Also 4x weak to Fire. Also, most people are just like "why is Genesect even unbanned", I don't remember a good pro-ban argument. Will explain my opinions in more detail later.

+2 Mega Gallade does around 80% to skarm at which point you get killed by a brave bird or whirlwinded out. Nice sweep! ^-^
Since when is anything broken for being a late-game sweeper?
OOOH ARTICUNO BEATS SABLEYE IF IT HAS HAZE. WELP MEGA SABLEYE ISN'T GOOD THEN. In reality, that's two types that get that pokemon, and running a specific pokemon on a specific type with specific moves to beat a specific pokemon doesn't sound like overcentralizing at all. naaah

Genesect2slow4me. In reality, it's a strong pokemon that destroys things that it's super effective against, like psychic and dark, and tears their hopes into little tiny shreds. You can't do anything about the momentum it creates on either because of the stupidly strong u-turn that can possibly get a free choice band, or the bug buzzes that possibly gets a free choice specs. It's terrible for the meta and doesn't help bug beat anything it struggles with.

A little insight, please?