What about a Scarfed Primeape set that runs Aerial Ace too? Wouldn't need any prior damage to OHKO aforementioned threats, especially with CC OHKOing Heliolisk like nobody's business. Is also a good revenge killer with excellent coverage, as well as the ability to scout with U-Turn and gain momentum.
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Metagame np: Stage 4 - Celebration (Feraligatr Banned)
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What about a Scarfed Primeape set that runs Aerial Ace too? Wouldn't need any prior damage to OHKO aforementioned threats, especially with CC OHKOing Heliolisk like nobody's business. Is also a good revenge killer with excellent coverage, as well as the ability to scout with U-Turn and gain momentum.
Scarf Primeape could revenge kill, but it can really only switch in once. Virizion's Close Combat has a decent chance to ohko after rocks. Heliolisk almost ohkos just with Volt Switch, which is what it will almost always use. And any decent player seeing you switch a healthy Primeape in will assume it's scarfed and, if it survived switching in, switch them out. It's a decent check, but definitely not a counter.
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For what it's worth, Aerial Ace is actually about 33% stronger against Virizion (60 * 4 vs 120 * 1.5) and has a chance to OKHO, while Close Combat needs stealth rocks and two layers of spikes to have a (small) chance.
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Why would Primeape need Aerial Ace? If you're talking about taking on Virizion, CC outdamages Aerial Ace in this case so...
I mean regardless it is a moot point since bringing up obscure sets to beat broken Pokémon doesn't mean anything, but still.
Heliolisk: Heliolisk's offensive presence backed by such a good offensive move pool makes it too much of a pain to deal with. I could go out on a limb and say it reminds me of greninja, though it has a much easier time grabbing free turns to get in due to its ability, while at the same time its ability grants it a decent supporting role with its great immunity. It also has a much easier time grabbing momentum since it gains momentum through clicking its stab, just bouncing around the battlefield until your team is worn down and either heliolisk or another offensive Pokemon cleans up what it started. Early-mid game it can quickly force teams in to bad positions with that deadly combination of power and coverage, and that's really only combated by the "You can predict around it" argument, which is obviously flawed. I'm going to have to say lizard should be Banned
Steelix: Steelix is an odd one. At First, I could not imagine why anyone would think steelix would be broken, but I see now that its mix of amazing bulk and great offensive presence make it a force to be reckoned with, and quite unhealthy for the NU tier. Steelix has the ability to outlast its counters, or just do away with them with coverage move-Thunder Fang for Mantine/Pelipper for example, forcing you to sack it to defog, or just not getting rid of hazards at all, While toxic can be used to put a timer on common switch ins to Steelix, allowing it to take huge advantage of your team in late game situations. There's also the fact that Steelix has an easy time switching in on many common Pokemon, while only really consistently being hurt by the negligible 4% it takes from rocks. Steelix isn't a sitting duck either, doing huge damage to most Pokemon with its stabs, sitting on a respectable 125 attack. Though mega Steelix doesn't have a recovery move, it still manages to outlast switch ins and consistently pressure teams. Snake should be Banned
Steelix: Steelix is an odd one. At First, I could not imagine why anyone would think steelix would be broken, but I see now that its mix of amazing bulk and great offensive presence make it a force to be reckoned with, and quite unhealthy for the NU tier. Steelix has the ability to outlast its counters, or just do away with them with coverage move-Thunder Fang for Mantine/Pelipper for example, forcing you to sack it to defog, or just not getting rid of hazards at all, While toxic can be used to put a timer on common switch ins to Steelix, allowing it to take huge advantage of your team in late game situations. There's also the fact that Steelix has an easy time switching in on many common Pokemon, while only really consistently being hurt by the negligible 4% it takes from rocks. Steelix isn't a sitting duck either, doing huge damage to most Pokemon with its stabs, sitting on a respectable 125 attack. Though mega Steelix doesn't have a recovery move, it still manages to outlast switch ins and consistently pressure teams. Snake should be Banned
Aerial Ace does 240 damage to Virizion, whereas CC does only 180. It only scores a nice 4x SE against Leavanny though. But yes, Primeape would rather dedicate that slot to another one of this coverage moves, so it's rarely worth it unless you desperately need a check to Virizion.
For some reason I thought it was Grass/Normal. God that would probably make things ten thousand times easier.
But even then you should have better things to deal with Virizion than Aerial Ace Primeape. Is there really nothing better or more reliable?
There is a large number of Pokemon that handle virizion more reliably. Archeops, Choice Scarf Rotom-S, and Exeggutor are some offensive answers I can think of off the top of my head and are all better off than Choice Scarf Aerial Ace Primeape (which it has no business running especially considering Gunk Shot hits the same BP and has the utility of hitting Granbull/Mega Audino/Togetic)
Any Bulky psychic with psyshock beats Virizion really, not to mention the likes of gourgeist can also beat it 1v1(e.g. Musharna, Uxie, etc)
Several mons check it, fire types and birds generally are uses to keep it in check.
There are also so many counters depending on what coverage move the opponent decides to use but stuff like garbodor will always do a pretty decent job vs virizion as well
if you are going to run aerial ace for virizion, u might as well use acrobatics in case u have to switch into a knock off (from say like yama).
Also scarf scyther which can bop helio with brick break at full health or knock off/ u turn after hazards and makes a great volturn core with the lizard himself
Virizion has a ton of checks on its own, my post was made to look for things that could check both Virizion and Heliolisk repeatedly (disregarding how useful they are in the current meta since I took a puzzle-approach) and switch into them at least once no matter which move they use. Exeggutor, Rotom-S and Archeops all don't qualify for this role for obvious reasons. Latter two can't take Stone Edge well (possibly dying to it, at least Archeops) and Exeggutor doesn't like to take a Dark Pulse or Signal Beam from Heliolisk. Rotom-F can't do much to Heliolisk either.
@ Froppe:
Problem is that Ape still dies to Specs Heliolisk as well as Virizion's Close Combat even without any prior damage. That kinda blows. 65/60/70 bulk is just not enough, 75/75/75 barely cuts it as it is, as such being only a counter by chance but it seriously can't take the hit. And indeed, as has been said before, Ape would not run Aerial Ace but Gunk Shot instead as they deal the same damage to Virizion and Gunk Shot hits much more stuff hard.
@ Froppe:
Problem is that Ape still dies to Specs Heliolisk as well as Virizion's Close Combat even without any prior damage. That kinda blows. 65/60/70 bulk is just not enough, 75/75/75 barely cuts it as it is, as such being only a counter by chance but it seriously can't take the hit. And indeed, as has been said before, Ape would not run Aerial Ace but Gunk Shot instead as they deal the same damage to Virizion and Gunk Shot hits much more stuff hard.
I think the reason people are having problems finding counters to both is that other than dropping at the same time, Heli and Viri really have nothing in common. With a meta switch up like we've just had its not as simple as slapping one Mon onto any old team and expecting to keep winning. With a new meta means new teams, cores and structures, and rather than trying to find a one Mon fix all people need to go back to the drawing board with their teams as a whole and finding new teams that better adapt to the meta as a whole. Your Heliosk check may struggle to deal with Virizion as well, but maybe thats a role your current fighting or grass check should fill, and finding a check to these mons that covers Viri as well
Ok so here are my thoughts on the two suspects before I start going for reqs.
Steelixite: Mega Steelix is a threat in UU (my resident tier) and I could imagine the bulk being too much here, but from what I can tell there is a lot of powerful Pokemon in NU that can take it on. The problem is fast threats are taken down by Gyro Ball while the things that are too slow to be hit hard by Gyro Ball are hit hard by STAB Earthquake. Mega Steelix also has an amazing base 230 Defense stat, allowing it to tank any physical hit, even super effective ones, while patching up its weaker special bulk. Although I don't the power creep in NU, this thing seems too bulky for NU and while I am on the fence about both suspects, I am leaning towards ban on this.
Heliolisk: Heliolisk is an amazing Pokemon, garnering a base 109 Speed stat and 109 Special Attack stat and amazing coverage, hitting what seems to be everything neutrally with its STAB combo + Grass Knot and Surf. Backed by LO, it hits very hard as well while outspeeding a decent portion of the current metagame. It also has a nice ability in Dry Skin, meaning it can switch into Water-type attacks and get some free HP and potentially suck momentum from the opponent. However it is very frail with 62 / 52 / 94 defenses, meaning it can not take a single hit, even resisted. While its offensive pressure may prove too much for NU, I am leaning towards no ban on it for now.
I will post more with my post-reqs thoughts later :)
Steelixite: Mega Steelix is a threat in UU (my resident tier) and I could imagine the bulk being too much here, but from what I can tell there is a lot of powerful Pokemon in NU that can take it on. The problem is fast threats are taken down by Gyro Ball while the things that are too slow to be hit hard by Gyro Ball are hit hard by STAB Earthquake. Mega Steelix also has an amazing base 230 Defense stat, allowing it to tank any physical hit, even super effective ones, while patching up its weaker special bulk. Although I don't the power creep in NU, this thing seems too bulky for NU and while I am on the fence about both suspects, I am leaning towards ban on this.
Heliolisk: Heliolisk is an amazing Pokemon, garnering a base 109 Speed stat and 109 Special Attack stat and amazing coverage, hitting what seems to be everything neutrally with its STAB combo + Grass Knot and Surf. Backed by LO, it hits very hard as well while outspeeding a decent portion of the current metagame. It also has a nice ability in Dry Skin, meaning it can switch into Water-type attacks and get some free HP and potentially suck momentum from the opponent. However it is very frail with 62 / 52 / 94 defenses, meaning it can not take a single hit, even resisted. While its offensive pressure may prove too much for NU, I am leaning towards no ban on it for now.
I will post more with my post-reqs thoughts later :)
Honestly lisk never really needs to take hits seen as the faster stuff in the tier cant switch in to it and it just hard switches on stuff like yamas fake out or any other priority and volt switches on the mons it cant take out.
The 20 damage difference to Virizion is actually a lot, and switching Primeape on something... To even switch in a Primeape should probably be far down on your list of recommended options.
I don't see it being frail as much of a good counterargument for why heliolisk isn't banworthy (it is certainly to an extent a glass cannon, but the amount of positives it has honestly mitigate the frailty weakness it possesses). On top of easily gaining momentum and getting free switches (it punished practically every ground with surf/grass knot as well as hyper voice) and hitting a most of the tier very hard, it does have numerous switch ins, not only to water type attacks so prevalent in the meta, but to spinblockers/ ghost types as well like mismagius, haunter, rotom,... hell every ghost I've encountered thus far. So as previously mentioned, heliolisk is not only an excellent momentum grabber with very little opportunity cost on top of being powerful, but unlike raichu as a pivot it has more switch in opportunities thanks to its unique typing and ability, softening things it likes to lure in like AV hariyama while typically gaining momentum in the process. Not only can it act as both a pivot and a exceedingly threatening offensive presence, but it can also function as a cleaner late game thanks to its awesome speed tier, outspeeding nearly anything that isn't scarf, a swellow, or an archeops. Furthermore, it pairs so well with some of the most common threats in the tier (like fire types such as typhlosion, pyroar, camerupt, etc.) because it so easily softens if not outright kills off common nuisances like seismitoad, camerupt, rhydon, and so on that would love to cockblock volt switches while it pivot away from other switch ins that a teammate loves weakened. It is honestly the best offensive pivot currently with its unique typing, ability, powerful offensive presence, excellent movepool that can hit most if not all of the metagame and be tailored based off your team, ability to switch in directly to quite a few things like gatr, rotom, missy, etc. and further punish switch ins that make it albeit too much for this tier imo.
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I guess I understand that but like I said, those are my thought going into laddering for reqs. As I play the meta, I assume I will see what you mean by Heliolisk's overall power being a problem despite its lack of any bulk whatsoever. I was just basing my thoughts on what I can tell from the Pokemon's stats and how it fares in other metas (such as UU, my home tier).
It's worth noting that Mega Steelix practically never run Gyro Ball, because Heavy Slam is just better in every way against 95% (arbitrary high number) of the meta since nothing weighs all that much not to mention it gains a boatload of weight when Mega. Meaning it can still hit all the slower mons with Heavy Slam if it does more.
I'd like to build on something that were just said as well, though. Heliolisk is frail in much the same way Mismagius is frail, low def and decent enough special def. I'm not claiming it's amazing bulk but Heliolisk can, if required, take a specially based resisted/weaker neutral hit to get a kill (Sludge Bomb from defensive Vileplume doesn't 2hko without poison/rocks/LO recoil). It might be less bulk than average but then NU also have less powerful attackers than average as well. I won't pretend 62/52 is in any way bulky but the only mons that can even hit it with a physical STAB move without being scarfed or priority is Archeops, Sneasel and Swellow (only counting mostly relevant threats) so more often than not it's lack of physical bulk really doesn't stop it anyway.
If we are basing things of stats, heliolisk is just another pyroar but as you look deeper, it possesses not only a way to keep momentum but vital immunities in water which allow it to check formerly s rank threats like gatr and frens.
I'm not sure if I'm the only one that thinks this but helio has many positives and is a good mon, but at the same time it isn't that broken to the extent that people make it out to be on this forum. In most battles, it's a momentum grabber yes, but the power isn't that great in all honesty. Whenever I see something like a cryo or hariyama on a team, i think most of the time helio is worn down before anything else. I've also seen a lot more toxic spikes and spikes which definitely ware it down to the point where it isn't functioning at this "broken omg pls ban" level that people seem to say. I honestly think that it's just a good pokemon that functions very well in NU, i don't think it's too good or broken. It has limiting factors (a lot of them have already been said so I won't mention them) and it also has positives like its diverse movepool, speed, typing and ability.
I know a lot of people disagree with me but I just think it's a good pokemon and that we as an NU community have adapted to it very well. Most things that check it are things we use on teams anyway (hariyama, uxie, musharna) and it will often have to use prediction to do its job at its fullest, which is something that typhlosion or pyroar don't have to do a lot of the time. It's most common set is very easily worn down and bulkier teams can use priority to threaten it out or to kill it since it is extremely frail and carries a lot of weaknesses. It isn't like serp where base 110's don't outspeed it so things like tauros, archeops, sneasel can all beat it and it has defensive answers too. I don't think at this current point in the meta that it is banworthy but just a very good pokemon that functions well in our current meta.
I know a lot of people disagree with me but I just think it's a good pokemon and that we as an NU community have adapted to it very well. Most things that check it are things we use on teams anyway (hariyama, uxie, musharna) and it will often have to use prediction to do its job at its fullest, which is something that typhlosion or pyroar don't have to do a lot of the time. It's most common set is very easily worn down and bulkier teams can use priority to threaten it out or to kill it since it is extremely frail and carries a lot of weaknesses. It isn't like serp where base 110's don't outspeed it so things like tauros, archeops, sneasel can all beat it and it has defensive answers too. I don't think at this current point in the meta that it is banworthy but just a very good pokemon that functions well in our current meta.
Pyroar possesses utility in taunt and will o wisp, heliolisk has nothing but attacking moves, and it cannot check gatr without a choice scarf, if it has a dragon dance up (impossible with agility gatr)
What I'm getting from your post is that Heliolisk is basically Greninja, like The Goomy said earlier.
Difference is that greninja outspeeds pretty much everything and has ways of beating its counters with low kick, gunk shot and coverage >.> Helio doesn't and there are plenty of mons that sponge his hits and can stop him from doing what he does best.
Those mons you quoted don't stop Heliolisk, Heliolisk just Volt Swtiches into something more favorable. It is rarely going to be in a situation where it doesn't pressure a switch.
Hence the word "check"
I feel like Heliolisk def needs to be banned, what makes it different from other Volt Switchers such as Rotom and Lanturn is that Helio can reliably dispatch the ground types that stand in its way by spamming Surf and Grass Knot. Any true counters such as Seel (lol) and Lanturn are easily worn down due to the lack of reliable recovery. A base 109 speed is pretty much taunting a majority of NU, and if Helio doesn't like its current matchup, it can easily Volt Switch out while dealing out a respectable amount of damage. Combined with Dry Skin, it's overkill since it instantly becomes a Scald absorber while becoming great partners with Camerupt. Together, they can pretty much wallbreak everything, and the little mons that can take on Helio and Camerupt are pretty much unviable, and frail. Most of them, if not all can't even switch in safely. Don't forget that this is at no cost for the Helio user. So if you combine all of this, ban Helio.
I'm kinda on the fence for M-Lix, yeah, he's bulky and powerful, but these recent drops haven't been kind to it. The fact that it lacks reliable recovery and it's constantly being worn down from switches makes it less threatening as the game goes on. 30 speed is pretty slow as well, even with NU standards, and a majority of Steelix's checks and counters are easily fit into a standard NU team, unlike Helio. No ban for Steelix (atm)
I'll write more later if I have to c:
I'm kinda on the fence for M-Lix, yeah, he's bulky and powerful, but these recent drops haven't been kind to it. The fact that it lacks reliable recovery and it's constantly being worn down from switches makes it less threatening as the game goes on. 30 speed is pretty slow as well, even with NU standards, and a majority of Steelix's checks and counters are easily fit into a standard NU team, unlike Helio. No ban for Steelix (atm)
I'll write more later if I have to c:
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